Women in the Olympics and body types

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Many actresses also work out daily to an athletic degree (someone who works out HARD for hours a day is athletic to me, whether they are an athlete or not), so there may be actresses who also look like that, but many actresses are softer and waif-like as well. I do think when men say they like an athletic look (and not all say they do), they are being sincere, but they aren't necessarily saying "Olympic athlete." I think that's simply making a very small definition of "athletic" --- the average woman who is athletic does not look like that.

 

It's not a matter of sincerity so much as misleading dialogue. When someone works out, they simply say "I work out". When someone plays a sport, they say "I'm an athlete". If someone says they are "athletic", I don't think most people are going to first think, "Oh they work out at the gym." Someone atheltic may work out at the gym to enhance their performance but usually someone atheltic has skills designed to a specific sport. Usually one is going to think they have a different subset of skills that is required to play whatever sport makes them athletic more so then they are going to think that they go to the gym and do weight lift training or cardio. Socially, athleticism portrays the image of someone who plays sports. It has never been applied, from my experience, to someone that was talking about going to the gym and working out alone.

 

I know plenty of women like muscular men but would balk at a bodybuilder. There are extremes that are generally aesthetically unattractive. The same as many men like thin women, but they don't necessarily want to date women who look starving and prepubescent.

 

People in the Olympics aren't the same extreme as body builders have the potential to be. Usually those bodies are acheived through the aid of supplements unnaturally. While people in the Olympics may take vitiams and have strict diets, I don't think they are acheiveing bodies that are unnatrually developed like someone that is a body builder. From my knowledge, drugs are illegal if you want to be in the Olympics but it's not illegal in body building. Now people in the Olympics are certainly more muscled then the average person but Playboy playmates are more extreme in their depictions as well then the average person.

 

I can understand why a man wouldn't be attracted to a female body builder. I also understand why women aren't attracted to male body builders. A female body builder's body is nothing like that of the women you see in the Olympics, like the ones I posted though. Those women have athletic bodies.I couldn't see how you couldn't describe it any other way. I would never look oat the pictures 123 posted and say, "that's an athletic woman". She is certainly a woman in shape but she doesn't embody the imagery of athleticism.

 

And while women might not be attracted to body builders, there are women that are attracted to the men in the Olympics because their physics, while above the average for most people, due display atheltic abilities and muscles. In a way that is attractive.

 

 

ETA: Many professional athletes are often seen as attractive. Tennis is big with that these days, but gymnasts and soccer players have always had their days. Beach volleyball teams are often attractive. It really depends on the sport on whether it develops an 'attractive' body that is also athletic. I would say often it's also the pictures themselves that make the women seem unattractive -- generally speaking, grunting and screaming and scrapping mid-contest makes everyone look unattractive. Men, included, really.

 

I think people are intelligent enough to look past the sport faces and simply observe the line of the body. Since the line of the body is what is actually being discussed. I actually didn't want to post all fake magazine shot photos because them in action is more realistic to their bodies then a photoshopped picture that may cover their actual body up with clothes or make up or certain positioning. I would hope people could still see the attractiveness in a woman even if she wasn't glammed up for a photoshot. After all, people are always saying they aren't affected by photoshopped imagery. If this is the case, why would they be affected by some female in motion being athetlic even if her face isn't in a perfect smile?

 

ETA2: I'm also going to have to go with achieving the so-called "porn look" DY is talking about (though having seen an array of links to porn stars recently I'm not sure what that means, but let's assume it's more actress-pretty + buxom since there's overweight porn and so forth apparently) being FAR easier and more potentially natural than achieving the look of an Olympian. Some girls WILL look buxom and thin naturally, just as some women will be model tall and thin naturally, and plenty of women can look relatively like actresses naturally or with a bit of makeup and tricks, but no one naturally looks like most kinds of Olympians. Those muscles are all developed through hard work. Hours on end, really.

 

 

I'm confused about why you would want to assume something is more "actress-pretty" or overweight (when was the last time a man posted a picture of an over weight woman he liked) when the guys are mostely posting pictures of specific women that do look very consistant and stereotypica ideal look found in most porn. *scratches head*. Thin, young, big breasts, flawless skin, make-up, those are the pictures being used as examples. Not just regular women. Not actressess.

 

I also got to disagree that looking like the model of what is attractive in a lot of male media that a lot of the men usually use here to post pictures of women they like is "easier". Maybe in the context of all you have to do is hop to the doctors office and get your botox or latest surgery or apply make up it is, but I don't think that means it's more "realistic" or a more "healthy" expectations. The work required to maintain and more porn-like look might be different then the work to maintain and Olympic body, but it's not "easier" for the average woman that didn't make a career out of maintaining her looks for entertainment. And if men are going to use photoshopped images of young hot babes in popular male media, then I don't see how it's outrageous to use Olypics atheletes as examples as well.

 

I also don't think it's easy to achieve either "look".

[zengirl]

It's not a matter of sincerity so much as misleading dialogue. When someone works out, they simply say "I work out". When someone plays a sport, they say "I'm an athlete".

 

Well, neither of those are "I'm athletic." To me, an athlete is athletic, but so are other people who spend a lot of time on sporting or fitness-related activities. I don't think that's misleading dialogue at all. The first (and most common) definition of "athletic" in several dictionaries simply says, "Physically active and strong" which is what I'd think MOST people do think of when they hear the word, rather than reserving it specifically for professional athletes. I know many people who describe themselves as athletic (men and women) who are not athletes.

 

I do agree that not everyone who works out is or considers themselves athletic. I work out, but I am not athletic. I'm not physically strong, and I don't prioritize fitness that highly. I do basic maintenance. However, many people are sporty or athletic but not at the level of fitness of an Olympic athlete! I do agree that many athletic people play a sport (or run or do yoga/pilates or something like that) as that is generally what motivates someone to be that fit but many of them also formerly played sports and just kept up their fitness. At any rate, plenty of women play sports at the non-professional level and don't look like Olympic athletes, but definitely look muscular and strong.

 

People in the Olympics aren't the same extreme as body builders have the potential to be.

 

Depends on the sport, and they may be extreme in different ways. Female gymnasts for example often work out and diet in order to stave off puberty till well into their 20s when they stop performing -- sounds pretty extreme to me.

 

I would say the sports that are not that extreme have some people that are generally considered more attractive - tennis, soccer, volleyball - and some that aren't, but wouldn't be even if they weren't athletic. Additionally, loads of male runners and swimmers look weird too and out of proportion, so it's not just the women.

 

Usually those bodies are acheived through the aid of supplements unnaturally. While people in the Olympics may take vitiams and have strict diets, I don't think they are acheiveing bodies that are unnatrually developed like someone that is a body builder. From my knowledge, drugs are illegal if you want to be in the Olympics but it's not illegal in body building.

 

Huh? There are body builders in the Olympics (well weight lifting) too.

 

And while women might not be attracted to body builders, there are women that are attracted to the men in the Olympics because their physics, while above the average for most people, due display atheltic abilities and muscles. In a way that is attractive.

 

Sure, and there are men who find that attractive too, though perhaps less than women. Athleticism, as a trait, is still more 'male' than 'female.' That's true. So when a man says he likes athletic girls, I imagine he is subconsciously selecting what HE has seen as athletic girls in his life, most of whom don't look like Olympians. Many men in the Olympics DO look more like 'real life athletic men' (not all) IMO than women. This is because men in real life are still more likely to spend that kind of time and energy on working out.

 

I think people are intelligent enough to look past the sport faces and simply observe the line of the body. Since the line of the body is what is actually being discussed.

 

I don't think it's about intelligence - attraction is often holistic and instinctive.

 

I actually didn't want to post all fake magazine shot photos because them in action is more realistic to their bodies then a photoshopped picture that may cover their actual body up with clothes or make up or certain positioning. I would hope people could still see the attractiveness in a woman even if she wasn't glammed up for a photoshot. After all, people are always saying they aren't affected by photoshopped imagery. If this is the case, why would they be affected by some female in motion being athetlic even if her face isn't in a perfect smile?

 

Because most people, women especially, look kind of gross when working out, especially if contorting their faces for extreme performance. Additionally, just because a man likes an athletic woman doesn't mean he necessarily thinks she's at her hottest when sweating and grunting and playing the sport. That doesn't mean she becomes hideous to him, per se, but it does mean when comparing a woman ONLY with that image, she will fall short, unless he is particularly into that sort of thing. Some guys are sincerely attracted to a girl who's in the middle of playing a sport, but I wouldn't say that should be a prerequisite for liking 'athletic' girls so long as you're not grossed out by what they do to stay 'athletic.'

 

I'm confused about why you would want to assume something is more "actress-pretty" or overweight (when was the last time a man posted a picture of an over weight woman he liked) when the guys are mostely posting pictures of specific women that do look very consistant and stereotypica ideal look found in most porn. *scratches head*. Thin, young, big breasts, flawless skin, make-up, those are the pictures being used as examples. Not just regular women. Not actressess.

 

You clearly didn't click on all the links TW and [the other guy whose name I never remember] posted in the porn thread. Several of them were overweight. Some were thin. They were a mixed bag, seriously. Of course, most most women wear makeup when pictures are taken. Quite a few of the pics linked were snaps and not airbrushed though. I don't see makeup as "unrealistic" as we can all wear it, fairly easily and cheaply, and it changes the looks only slightly. To me, that's like saying showering is "unrealistic" because I wake up sweaty and unshowered. I can see how things like working out multiple hours EVERY day or getting surgery would be unrealistic, but I think makeup is pretty much accessible and easy to get. That's like saying expecting someone's armpits not to stink is "unrealistic" because they have to use deodorant.

 

I also got to disagree that looking like the model of what is attractive in a lot of male media that a lot of the men usually use here to post pictures of women they like is "easier".

 

Depends on what you look like to start, really. Many models and actresses haven't had plastic surgery. They may work out a bit, diet a bit, wear makeup, get flattering styles done, etc, but that's far less effort IMO than being an Olympic athlete! Of course, as they age, more effort will be needed to maintain the look and perhaps the things you've listed. But Olympic athletes usually can't maintain their shape and athleticism at the same level as they age either!

 

For an actress example, take Natalie Portman. I've seen the girl (don't know her or anything, but I had some friends who went to the same uni she did and saw her a few times on campus). She pretty much looks the same. Snaps paparazzi take can pretty much confirm that. She's not working to look the way she looks at anywhere NEAR the level of an Olympic athlete, except maybe if she takes on a physically demanding role (but I'm thinking of how she looks in, say, Garden State). I think that's actually true for most actresses and even models. I know quite a few models. They diet, sure, but it's hardly at the level of an Olympic athlete!

 

Generally, beauty akin to Hollywood, is something you CAN simply be born with. Not saying everyone in Hollywood WAS born with it, but some were, so it's 'natural' and 'realistic' in that way, as in: People really look like that.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Someone atheltic may work out at the gym to enhance their performance but usually someone atheltic has skills designed to a specific sport.

 

I don't agree. In my opinion, a person is "athletic" (and usually describes themselves that way) if they actually do physical stuff regularly and it's a part of their lifestyle. That might be hiking, going skiing in the winter, playing softball or kickball (big where I live) on the weekends, running, riding a bike everywhere instead of driving. They don't necessarily have skills or even any particular interest in a specific sport at all. Or, any gym time.

 

I live in the Pacific Northwest. Athletic people like this abound.

 

As far as "athletic body types" for women, to me, that means they are an in-shape mesomorph. This would range from basically well toned to major muscles.

[xxoo]

It's not a matter of sincerity so much as misleading dialogue.

 

Definitely different meanings of "athletic" are at play, but not necessarily any intention to mislead.

 

To me, someone who leads an active lifestyle, whether that includes the gym or not, playing sports or not, may have an "athletic build". You don't have to be an athlete to have an athletic build. But thin alone is not an athletic build. There has to be some strength and tone there, which may be more apparent in person than in photos.

[xxoo]

Generally, beauty akin to Hollywood, is something you CAN simply be born with. Not saying everyone in Hollywood WAS born with it, but some were, so it's 'natural' and 'realistic' in that way, as in: People really look like that.

 

Yes, for certain many can look like that naturally. These days, it is common to see paparazzi shots of stars without make up or photo-shop, and you can see that they are pretty and fit, while not necessarily glamorous at all times like in the magazines.

[zengirl]

Definitely different meanings of "athletic" are at play, but not necessarily any intention to mislead.

 

To me, someone who leads an active lifestyle, whether that includes the gym or not, playing sports or not, may have an "athletic build". You don't have to be an athlete to have an athletic build. But thin alone is not an athletic build. There has to be some strength and tone there, which may be more apparent in person than in photos.

 

Right, that's essentially 'athletic' to me, along with what MC says. My mind would never jump straight to Olympic athlete.

 

Yes, for certain many can look like that naturally. These days, it is common to see paparazzi shots of stars without make up or photo-shop, and you can see that they are pretty and fit, while not necessarily glamorous at all times like in the magazines.

 

Right. I understand that the magazine covers are blown a bit out of proportion (nobody's suggested they aren't and it's really not related to whether men like athletic women or not), but when you see them in interviews or in films or whatever, they look pretty much how they look, though perhaps glammed up a bit. Some used surgery or whatnot to look the way they look, but many did not.

 

No look is necessarily 'attainable' by everyone, and being an Olympic athlete and having that build (even with a lot of training) isn't necessarily attainable by everyone either. Some people are hard-gainers, etc.

[Mme. Chaucer]

How about we don't talke about the "attractiveness" at all of underaged girls! Come on.

 

Is it wrong to acknowledge the "attractiveness" (I am not sure about the use of quotes here) of teenaged girls? I see really beautiful and amazing looking ones all the time. I don't think of myself as any type of old pervert.

[FitChick]

I like a man with a swimmer's body. Don't like bulky or stocky.

 

You do realize that athletes are just as obsessed with their bodies as the oft criticized celebrities. It's a job requirement for both.

[123321]

Again, I think it's misleading to say you like "athletic women" then post pictures of Playboy pinups.

 

Fair enough, it was a quick thing and probably imperfect however I selected 3 who appeared to be natural and fit, "athletic" but not required to be actual athletes. I like thin women, and while I've never to my knowledge said "I want an athletic woman" I do find many athletic women attractive, but most actual world class athletes are not attractive to me.

 

There are exceptions, tennis players and so forth, of course.

 

The main thing I was pointing out is that not all "pinups" are produced in an OR, there are plenty of naturally well built and fit women out there and they are popular in the media as well as in dating.

[Mme. Chaucer]

A lot of people who say they like athletic people are referring to a lifestyle as much as, or even more than a body type.

 

If somebody wants to spend their weekends hiking and rock climbing, they aren't going to have a great time with a hardcore movie buff or a couch potato.

[Nikki Sahagin]

I'm a girl so my opinion on this is kinda mood but I love the figures of female athletes. I don't like the female bodybuilder look but I think the athletic look is really striking and powerful. They look like human lionesses. I'm not sure i'd want my figure to look like that. I prefer slim/toned without being too muscular, but I think these woman have amazing figures.

[123321]

People in the Olympics aren't the same extreme as body builders have the potential to be. Usually those bodies are acheived through the aid of supplements unnaturally. While people in the Olympics may take vitiams and have strict diets, I don't think they are acheiveing bodies that are unnatrually developed like someone that is a body builder. From my knowledge, drugs are illegal if you want to be in the Olympics but it's not illegal in body building.

 

That's all pretty much not true. You see the development in bodybuilding simply because the "sport" is all about putting it on display but if you see a bodybuilding woman when she's not all pumped up, in street clothes, she's not gonna look like she does oiled, pumped, and on stage.

 

Not that I am into that look, but I was in that world when I was younger.

 

Performance enhancing drugs are in ALL world-class sports, whether their are rules against or not.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

“Well, neither of those are "I'm athletic." To me, an athlete is athletic, but so are other people who spend a lot of time on sporting or fitness-related activities. I don't think that's misleading dialogue at all. “

 

I understand you don’t find it misleading. You understand that I do. I think we can agree to disagree here. We both know we aren’t going to convince each other to think like the other. Some people will agree with you, others will agree with me. I wasn’t the only person that found it odd that a number of LS men where talking about liking athletic ladies then posting pictures of women that didn’t really fit the image of athleticism in their mind’s eye. I think I made a fair point about differing few points of athleticism and how it’s used to describe body types and I don’t feel the need to address this again simply because you disagree.

 

I also looked up the definition of “athletic”. That however does very little to address how it’s often applied within conversation. From my own experiences, I’ve never heard someone call themselves athletic for doing a regular gym work-out. That’s me and my experience. I get that you disagree. Your experience is different. I disagree with you. You disagree with me.

 

“Huh? There are body builders in the Olympics (well weight lifting) too.”

 

My turn to say “huh?”

 

Is there something specific to body building in the Olympics or is it actually weight lifting that is the sport? I tried to google it but I couldn’t find anything specifically on just body building in the Olympics but naturally I did find weight lifting.

 

If you ask me this guy:

 

Weight lifting

 

Looks a bit different from this guy:

 

Body Building

 

“I don't think it's about intelligence - attraction is often holistic and instinctive. “

 

And I don’t think people are incapable of acknowledging the attractiveness of a body or face independently from one another. I think people are fully able to look past the sport faces and evaluate their level of attraction of the types of body being discussed. There is currently another thread going on talking about just that. The difference of attraction between faces and bodies. People are able to tell if they are attracted to a body or a face or both or just one or the other. Attraction being instinctive doesn’t change one’s ability to see a distinction between their own level of attraction to someone’s face or body.

 

 

Because most people, women especially, look kind of gross when working out, especially if contorting their faces for extreme performance.

 

Yeah I don’t think any of those women look “gross” in the examples I gave. They aren’t all doctored up in pretty poses. It’s real life. I see looks of joy on the first two examples I gave. The female runner’s face is hidden because her head is bowed and the last shot of the female swimmer is a full on smiling pretty one. I see nothing gross in any of these examples.

 

You clearly didn't click on all the links TW and [the other guy whose name I never remember] posted in the porn thread.

 

Actually I did. My opinion is based on what I observed. Next time perhaps asking someone if they took a look at something rather then dictating what they did or didn’t do might be a better way to go?

 

Several of them were overweight. Some were thin. They were a mixed bag, seriously. Of course, most most women wear makeup when pictures are taken.

 

I see commonalities in the depictions of women through the type of pictures the men decided to pick to showcase. *Most* of the women pictured fit into a standard of beauty. Big breasts, small waist, big ass, young. There might be slight variations, but the majority of it fit into what I described IMO. Even if some where chunker then others. From my understanding, you have no issues with this. I think you talked about how of course men like young women (if I got this wrong let me know.) Well to me, I do have an issue with it. We have different beliefs here. I don't enjoy being in an youth obessed culture and having to do my best to fight stereotypes about it while having to manage men obessed with youth. I am looking for a different kind of man that doesn't focus on these things. Enjoys life. Sees it as a journey and isn't forever wrapped up at the eternal fountain of youth. I personally believe it's very telling about where a man's head is at regarding the kind of porn or women he zeros in on.

 

I think there are very standard representations a lot of men here choose to use when talking about what they like that most real women don’t infact look like either because the body’s are photoshopped, heavily made-up or posed, enhanced digitally or at the hands of a doctor with provocative clothing and a combination of all these factors playing their part to give a fantasy image of a woman. Which is part of the reason I used the pictures I did since they are real women, in real action. Because I wanted to show real women in real action and not doctored up pretty photos of women. Most of the pictures the LS men seem to use are doctored up pretty photos that that I do think set unrealistic expectations. I understand you don’t agree. I agree to disagree with you.

 

Quite a few of the pics linked were snaps and not airbrushed though.

 

That was not my impression. But even if some weren’t airbrushed, there were still other factors at play that set up the ideal. I did go back to the porn thread to see if I could find examples guys have used because I it's been a while but I couldn't find any in that thread. Perhaps there where examples in another thread.

 

I don't see makeup as "unrealistic" as we can all wear it, fairly easily and cheaply,

 

I don’t see anywhere, where anyone said that make-up itself was unrealistic.

 

 

...and it changes the looks only slightly.

 

That depends on the woman and the make-up. Some women look very different without make-up. Some don’t.

 

 

I can see how things like working out multiple hours EVERY day or getting surgery would be unrealistic, but I think makeup is pretty much accessible and easy to get.

 

I remember one time reading an interview with the famous porn star Jemma Jamison. She talked about how maintaining her body was a full time job and that she had to create the illusion that it came somewhat ‘naturally” because that’s what men like to believe. She was regularly working out for hours a day, receiving facials and other spa treatments regularly, waxing and the whole bag of tricks at women’s disposal to maintain what was expected of her. She talked about how stopping these things was a breath of fresh air but it certainly changed her appearance. This is one reason why I think using photos of women in pretty settings and posing with just the right clothes and make up and airbrushing doesn’t give a realistic picture to what it takes to maintain those looks.

 

You seem to want to single out one thing I said and make the case that I am saying that make-up alone is “fake”. But that isn’t what I said. However, make-up does add to the illusion along with the other factors that come into play in a lot of the photos I see men posting of specific types of women. I think it’s fair to be honest about what “tools” are being used to present a certain image.

 

 

That's like saying expecting someone's armpits not to stink is "unrealistic" because they have to use deodorant.

 

Not unless my belief is that a woman’s face is ugly if she doesn’t use make-up. I don’t think women *have* to use make up but I do think people *have* to use deodorant. If you don’t put make-up on your face, you’re not ugly. You don’t stink metaphorically. But if you don’t put deodorant on, it’s likely you will stink a little. Cleaniness and make-up aren’t the same thing.

 

 

Depends on what you look like to start, really. Many models and actresses haven't had plastic surgery. They may work out a bit, diet a bit, wear makeup, get flattering styles done, etc, but that's far less effort IMO than being an Olympic athlete!

 

I don't know enough about many models or actresses to know how many have had plastic surgery. However, after going through some lists of actresses that had, I think people would be surprised to see who had surgery and what they looked like before. It seems like more then half of Hollywood has had at least nose surgery.

 

I also don’t think it’s a fair assertion to make and say one thing is harder then the other. Maybe for some models it is easier. Maybe for some it isn’t. We really don’t know what is easy or not easy based on a picture. I am sure some athletes have an easier time getting to a goal faster then another athlete. Which is why I think pictures of Playmates are again, misleading all around when used as examples. But I specifically find it strange to use them to describe "athleticism".

 

I also don’t think models and actresses are models and actresses because it’s “easier” then being an Olympic athlete. I certainly think there is sometimes different kinds of work required, but not necessarily “easier” work. Lets take a Farmer and a Fireman. Is one’s work more difficult then the other? I don’t know if I can make that kind of statement. Their work is certainly different and requires different things of their bodies, minds and time. But to flat out say one is easier then the other? That seems wrong to me.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Is it wrong to acknowledge the "attractiveness" (I am not sure about the use of quotes here) of teenaged girls? I see really beautiful and amazing looking ones all the time. I don't think of myself as any type of old pervert.

 

I'd prefer that we not talk about underage girls within this topic of conversation. To me, that's a seperate issue and I would like to stay away from that when discussing fully grown adult bodies. That's all.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Fair enough, it was a quick thing and probably imperfect however I selected 3 who appeared to be natural and fit, "athletic" but not required to be actual athletes. I like thin women, and while I've never to my knowledge said "I want an athletic woman" I do find many athletic women attractive, but most actual world class athletes are not attractive to me.

 

There are exceptions, tennis players and so forth, of course.

 

The main thing I was pointing out is that not all "pinups" are produced in an OR, there are plenty of naturally well built and fit women out there and they are popular in the media as well as in dating.

 

I don't deny that there are many beautiful women out there that fit into the ideal stereotype that aren't actresses or want not. That have naturally designed bodies that are everything a man could want. However, I also know a lot more women that don't fit into that and struggle with body image issues because of the images pushed on them and because of experiences and comments from men and women alike. I don't think being concerned by stereotypes placed on women through popular male media through pictures and want not is wrong either. There are many unreal expectations placed on women (and men) and I sooner wouldn't want to gloss over them because some women are blessed with the kind of genes that are upheld in our culture as "the best".

 

I know it doesn't touch your life like it touches mine 123. I don't ask it to or expect you to care about the things that have been things I care about in my life. You often talk about all the hot babes you date. Great. Life is good for you. Life is good for your hot babes. But there are still a lot of women out there struggling and trying to figure things out and how they fit in a world that sets up a lot of expectations that are unrealistic for their body types. I am not asking you to care about this. So please don't mistake me and assume that I am asking for you to care about women that don't fit into what you personally like and want.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours

[Disenchantedly Yours]

That's all pretty much not true. You see the development in bodybuilding simply because the "sport" is all about putting it on display but if you see a bodybuilding woman when she's not all pumped up, in street clothes, she's not gonna look like she does oiled, pumped, and on stage.

 

Not that I am into that look, but I was in that world when I was younger.

 

Performance enhancing drugs are in ALL world-class sports, whether their are rules against or not.

 

Well, I think street clothes alone would hide a lot of her muscle tone but the muscle tone is still there right?

 

I am sure Playmates look different in street clothes too. With no make -up. Hair tossed up with street clothes on too.

 

I am sure there are enhancing drugs in all world class sports. But maybe I am naive in hoping that Olympic athletes participate less in this then body building competitors for the purity of the sport. I guess there is no real way to know either way but I do think that body building is an extreme that makes bodies look more unnatural then someoen being an athlete in the Olympics with a specific body type.

[123321]

But there are still a lot of women out there struggling and trying to figure things out and how they fit in a world that sets up a lot of expectations that are unrealistic for their body types.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh but those who are really a victim of genes are rare. Most are a victim of simple overfeeding. Anyone who doubts this can spend a few months in a place where food is not plentiful, and one will see; either the gene pool is magically better, or a slight scarcity in food transforms most of the people into much more attractive shapes.

 

I'm gonna say it's eating less that does it.

 

 

Well, I think street clothes alone would hide a lot of her muscle tone but the muscle tone is still there right?

 

One doesn't see tone except as lack of jiggle. Tone is the tension a muscle exerts when at rest.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

I don't mean to sound harsh but those who are really a victim of genes are rare. Most are a victim of simple overfeeding. Anyone who doubts this can spend a few months in a place where food is not plentiful, and one will see; either the gene pool is magically better, or a slight scarcity in food transforms most of the people into much more attractive shapes.

 

I'm gonna say it's eating less that does it.

 

Well I would disagree with the "victim" of genes thing being "rare". I see lots of women who are thin who still get passed up by guys because they might not "shine" as bright physically as other women who have all the other attributes that are upheld in our culture. I also don't think this issue is just about weight. It has to do with an over all body type and expectation of youth and feminity that women are pitted up to. I understand that you very well may come back with a , "well men like young women too bad that's the way it is" approach. Okay. Men like young women. Then I guess all the other women should do what with that information? Jump off a bridge after a certain age? It simply doesn't do much to help women figure out how to deal with their bodies and looks and how men see and treat them and their worth regarding this or the over idealizing of their bodies and anger and yes "harsh" comments men can make about their bodies when a man feels they fail to be what *he* wants them to be.

 

For me, this issue goes deeper and wider then what your talking about here. I understand if you don't like women you feel eat too much. I sincerely am not asking you to care about the struggles a lot of women face regarding their bodies. I think it's great you date the kind of women you like most and they want to date you and if you want to condemn other women for their bodies, you are free to do so but it's kind of mean. I guess you're just a better human being then those other women that don't have the type of body you like. But this doesn't change the difficult relationship alot of women have with their bodies and try to work on. I don't think it's fair to shame women for having those challenges and trying to do the best they can. There is a lot of shaming about women's bodies in popular media (as there is about men's) and I think it's fair to acknowledge this.

[123321]

Well I would disagree with the "victim" of genes thing being "rare". I see lots of women who are thin who still get passed up by guys because they might not "shine" as bright physically as other women who have all the other attributes that are upheld in our culture.

 

This is just part of life for ALL people, it's not restricted to unattractive women. People will choose to date the other people who they can get with, and who at the same time come closest to their own ideal. For guys it's generally less about looks and more about achievements but there is still a filter and still plenty of guys who fail to pass muster.

 

Most American women could be attractive if they would shed fat. That's just a fact of life that people sometimes hate to come to grips with because there's no one left to blame and the task is not easy.

[zengirl]

My turn to say “huh?”

 

Is there something specific to body building in the Olympics or is it actually weight lifting that is the sport? I tried to google it but I couldn’t find anything specifically on just body building in the Olympics but naturally I did find weight lifting.

 

Weight lifting is a part of body building, and to me, they all look odd, to varying degrees. But professional weight lifters look really gross to me (male and female), personally, and many women I know. Truly. That was my original point. I'll admit I know little about body building vs. weight lifting and how it differs, but they all lift heavy stuff to get weird, unnatural muscles.

 

At any rate, the rest of your post is rather more of the same, DY. Clearly we disagree on how athletic photos look and what athletic actually means in daily life. Clearly we also disagree on beauty. I don't mind that some men don't find female Olympians beautiful, as I don't consider them beautiful either. Admirable, sure, but aesthetically pleasing? Not generally. Some are. Many more are, probably, when not mid-sport and their hair nicely kept and so forth. But what's the point in trying to make athletic only that top echelon of athleticism? And especially what's the point in doing so as a way to counter the top echelon of actual attractiveness?

 

I see commonalities in the depictions of women through the type of pictures the men decided to pick to showcase. *Most* of the women pictured fit into a standard of beauty. Big breasts, small waist, big ass, young. There might be slight variations, but the majority of it fit into what I described IMO. Even if some where chunker then others. From my understanding, you have no issues with this. I think you talked about how of course men like young women (if I got this wrong let me know.)

 

I haven't seen the thread you referred to, nor did you link it in the original post. Is this a thread about that thread or a thread about the word "athletic" and Olympic athletes?

 

I don't recall saying "Of course men like young women" -- though I did say that it's natural that we select beautiful people for things like fashion magazines, as everyone likes aesthetically pleasing people in such forums. At any rate, I have no problem that we equate some degree of beauty with youth. Many women do this, as well as men. I do think it odd when older men seek out much younger women - they're welcome to do so, freedom and all, but I never tolerated older men flirting with me and so forth. However, there is a big difference between finding someone attractive and pursuing them.

 

I don't see how this is an issue of "beliefs" at all. You have all these beliefs on attraction and what's right, but attraction isn't about what's "right" - it's just about what you like. Is it right or wrong that I hate eggs? No one would ever dream to tell me that it's either, would they? They'd just accept I had a natural affinity for some foods and distaste for others. As long as I'm not spreading hate speech against eggs or throwing out the idea that they're unhealthy and no one should like them because I don't, no one gives two figs.

 

I don't enjoy being in an youth obessed culture and having to do my best to fight stereotypes about it while having to manage men obessed with youth. I am looking for a different kind of man that doesn't focus on these things.

 

I don't think simply being attracted to some young women and posting pics saying, "This girl is hot" in a thread about that (if that thread was - again, haven't seen it) suggests that someone is completely fixated on youth and looks. I agree that anyone who is completely fixated on the superficial is probably not someone I'd want to associate with in any way, but I find your railing against youth and beauty at all costs to be equally superficial, honestly and equally fixated on looks.

 

That was not my impression. But even if some weren’t airbrushed, there were still other factors at play that set up the ideal. I did go back to the porn thread to see if I could find examples guys have used because I it's been a while but I couldn't find any in that thread. Perhaps there where examples in another thread.

 

It was in that thread. Maybe the mods removed the links? I don't know. Pretty much none of them were professional shots that were airbrushed. They were snaps. I remember one of a very large girl (I'd say American size 14, though yes she had huge breasts - they looked natural to me, a bit saggy really) with blond hair on a dock, and it was definitely a snap. She was doing a signing. No way that was airbrushed.

 

I don’t see anywhere, where anyone said that make-up itself was unrealistic.

 

The suggesting of a woman being 'made up' and looking unrealistic was made. I quoted it.

 

I You seem to want to single out one thing I said and make the case that I am saying that make-up alone is “fake”. But that isn’t what I said. However, make-up does add to the illusion along with the other factors that come into play in a lot of the photos I see men posting of specific types of women. I think it’s fair to be honest about what “tools” are being used to present a certain image.

 

I sometimes see men post photos of women who've obviously done a lot, but sometimes see them post photos of women who look naturally beautiful but are still a tad made up. It varies. At any rate, I'm still not sure: is this a thread about THAT thread (I don't even know what that thread is) or is this a thread about men saying they like athletic women. As I said, I know many men who do like athletic women: it's about the lifestyle, as MC says, and the look of the muscle and relative fitness/thinness, though it is a different build than a purely thin gal that they go for - one more toned, less soft, and stronger.

 

Not unless my belief is that a woman’s face is ugly if she doesn’t use make-up. I don’t think women *have* to use make up but I do think people *have* to use deodorant.

 

I don't think people *have* to use either, but I'd consider the two about the same in my life - I wear them both if going out in public, generally. I'm not suggesting anyone else has to wear either one TBH. I know many countries where they don't use deodorant at all.

 

I also don’t think it’s a fair assertion to make and say one thing is harder then the other. Maybe for some models it is easier. Maybe for some it isn’t. We really don’t know what is easy or not easy based on a picture. I am sure some athletes have an easier time getting to a goal faster then another athlete.

 

Well, sure it varies by person. On average, however, the level of training to become an Olympic athlete, in most sports, is insane. You usually have to start very young. It consumes your whole life. That may be true, about beauty, for a small subset of Hollywood and a larger set of models, but I've yet to see where they go to the degree of an Olympic athlete. Even fitness models don't generally go that far.

 

I also don’t think models and actresses are models and actresses because it’s “easier” then being an Olympic athlete.

 

I wasn't suggesting they were. I am suggesting that aspiring to that level of beauty is perhaps healthier than aspiring to an Olympic level of fitness, IMO. Some people will never get to either and have to accept that, but I feel odd whenever someone says models/actresses don't look real. They look plenty real to me, easily as real as Olympians - I see more people who look like they could fit into Hollywood than look like Olympians in regular life.

 

I think instead, what this thread really reflects is that you value what Olympians do and sacrifice for and work hard for, but you don't value what models and actresses do and sacrifice for and work hard for. That's certainly your choice, but I don't think everyone shares, or should share, those values.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

This is just part of life for ALL people, it's not restricted to unattractive women. People will choose to date the other people who they can get with, and who at the same time come closest to their own ideal. For guys it's generally less about looks and more about achievements but there is still a filter and still plenty of guys who fail to pass muster.

 

Most American women could be attractive if they would shed fat. That's just a fact of life that people sometimes hate to come to grips with because there's no one left to blame and the task is not easy.

 

I'm really not intersted in a conversation about how you believe American women "fail" to be what you want.

 

I have seen many thin women get passed up and over for. The issue is much bigger and deeper then your deep dislike of specifically women that are over weight. And I am not really even very interested in your deep dislike of women that are over weight. This does very little to broach the subject I'm personally interested in. Good luck.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Weight lifting is a part of body building, and to me, they all look odd, to varying degrees. But professional weight lifters look really gross to me (male and female), personally, and many women I know. Truly. That was my original point. I'll admit I know little about body building vs. weight lifting and how it differs, but they all lift heavy stuff to get weird, unnatural muscles.

 

Weight lifting IS a part of body building but Weight lifting and Body Building are not the same things. Is there a “body building” competition in the Olympics? I certainly see a competition for Weight Lifting.

 

I think the two pictures posted shows the difference between body builders and weight lifters. To me, the body builders look to have an unnatural amount of muscle. I don’t think the weight lifters look to have an unnatural amount of muscle despite the fact that they are quite muscular all over. As where swimmers have a lot of upper body strength.

 

At any rate, the rest of your post is rather more of the same, DY.

 

Right back at ya Zengirl. The rest of your post is rather more of the same too. I hope this was constructive to your point.

 

I don't mind that some men don't find female Olympians beautiful, as I don't consider them beautiful either.Admirable, sure, but aesthetically pleasing? Not generally. Some are. Many more are, probably, when not mid-sport and their hair nicely kept and so forth. But what's the point in trying to make athletic only that top echelon of athleticism? And especially what's the point in doing so as a way to counter the top echelon of actual attractiveness?

 

It was not my goal to make athleticism only reserved for the “top echelon of athleticism”. I could have used regular women in regular sports that aren’t in the Olympics too. But what started me to think about this was because I had seen a pre-Olympic trail and I just got to thinking of discussion on the board about liking athletic women and it tied in for me.

 

Often guys use examples of Playmates or other women in visual media as an ideal. I think that using Olympians as another model isn’t far removed from that same ideal.

 

I haven't seen the thread you referred to, nor did you link it in the original post. Is this a thread about that thread or a thread about the word "athletic" and Olympic athletes?

 

I think the conversation spanned several threads and it happened a few weeks ago that to go back and look for it might be close to impossible. I’m not sure I want to take the time to do all that.

 

I don't see how this is an issue of "beliefs" at all. You have all these beliefs on attraction and what's right, but attraction isn't about what's "right" - it's just about what you like. Is it right or wrong that I hate eggs? No one would ever dream to tell me that it's either, would they? They'd just accept I had a natural affinity for some foods and distaste for others. As long as I'm not spreading hate speech against eggs or throwing out the idea that they're unhealthy and no one should like them because I don't, no one gives two figs.

 

I never once said that it was a matter of what is right or what is wrong. I have only illustrated that sometimes, in the complication or the human experience, what people are attracted to, causes issues and discussions about their attraction to certain thing for may differing reasons. I have no idea why you think I have said that “this is right”/”this is wrong”. I haven’t. That doesn’t mean that these things won’t be thought about or discussed or factor in socially in our interactions with other people.

 

I don't think simply being attracted to some young women and posting pics saying, "This girl is hot" in a thread about that (if that thread was - again, haven't seen it) suggests that someone is completely fixated on youth and looks. I agree that anyone who is completely fixated on the superficial is probably not someone I'd want to associate with in any way, but

 

I thought you were aware of the pictures some LS men where posting since we were talking about it earlier when you said that you saw all types of women being posted?

 

I find your railing against youth and beauty at all costs to be equally superficial, honestly and equally fixated on looks.

 

I am not “railing” against youth and beauty. I am only talking about the cultural obsession I find is real and true with youth and beauty. You are making a number of false comments regarding things I’ve said regarding this issue. And I do think something can be learned from what men notice and pay attention to. Does that mean that man is the sum of whatever picture he is posting? No. But it wouldn’t be logical to deny the message he is giving with that picture as well. He is sharing a certain picture for a reason. If you see a regular pattern in the type of women men are seeking out, it’s reasonable to draw conclusions from that and discuss them.

 

I don't really care if you think I am superficial or whatever other (again negative) ideas you continue to want to push on me. In all my life no one has ever accused me of the things you do. The list grows with you everyday though. Your animosity and zeal to foster and push things on me says more about you then it ever does me. I know who I am and I am proud of who I am and I know that despite your enjoyment in attaching label after label onto me, that it comes from a place of very little understanding to who I am on your end. That's your issue. Not mine.

 

 

It was in that thread. Maybe the mods removed the links? I don't know. Pretty much none of them were professional shots that were airbrushed. They were snaps. I remember one of a very large girl (I'd say American size 14, though yes she had huge breasts - they looked natural to me, a bit saggy really) with blond hair on a dock, and it was definitely a snap. She was doing a signing. No way that was airbrushed.

 

 

If you can find them, I’m game.

 

I already addressed the airbrush comments earlier. Don’t feel a need to restate here.

 

The suggesting of a woman being 'made up' and looking unrealistic was made. I quoted it.

 

Absosluely. Sometimes women are “made-up” and look unrealistic. I’m confused why you find this confusing. I however never ever said make-up itself was unrealistic. If you quoted it before can you quote it again? I must have missed where you had me saying that make-up itself was unrealistic.

 

I don't think people *have* to use either, but I'd consider the two about the same in my life - I wear them both if going out in public, generally. I'm not suggesting anyone else has to wear either one TBH. I know many countries where they don't use deodorant at all.

 

You’re the one that said “have to” in your deodorant example.

 

Well, sure it varies by person. On average, however, the level of training to become an Olympic athlete, in most sports, is insane. You usually have to start very young. It consumes your whole life. That may be true, about beauty, for a small subset of Hollywood and a larger set of models, but I've yet to see where they go to the degree of an Olympic athlete. Even fitness models don't generally go that far.

 

I’ve already made my own thoughts on this clear.

 

 

I wasn't suggesting they were. I am suggesting that aspiring to that level of beauty is perhaps healthier than aspiring to an Olympic level of fitness, IMO.

 

Oh wow, yeah, I totally disagree with that. I don't think aspiring to a level of beauty is "healthier" at all. There are so many dysfunctions in the model/actress world regarding beauty that this is really an impossilbe statement to make.

 

I read an article (I wish I could find it!) where a medical doctor was talking about most women in media, while very thin, do not have truely healthy health practices. That they don't balance food and exercise well but go to extremes. I am not saying that's true for everyone but my guess is that it's much more ramphet then we will ever know about. I am also not saying unhealthy behavior doesn't happen at an Olympic level. But I don't think it's fair to say that aspiring to a level of beautiy is "healther".

 

I think instead, what this thread really reflects is that you value what Olympians do and sacrifice for and work hard for, but you don't value what models and actresses do and sacrifice for and work hard for. That's certainly your choice, but I don't think everyone shares, or should share, those values.

 

Well your assertion here is completely false and wrong because I clearly said that I don't know who has to "work" harder for where they are at since different things are required of models/actresses then Olympic athletes. I don't think either one is easier. I think they simply require different things of people. Which is why I made the Fireman and Farmer analogy. You are the one that is attaching different levels of work ethic on these two groups of people, I'm the one that said I wasn't sure who works harder since different things are required of both.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Is the actual point of this thread that you, DY, think it's "wrong" for men to find commercially "beautiful" women attractive, and that they should not?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

The actual point of my thread is established in the first posting of this thread MME.

[zengirl]

I think the two pictures posted shows the difference between body builders and weight lifters. To me, the body builders look to have an unnatural amount of muscle. I don’t think the weight lifters look to have an unnatural amount of muscle despite the fact that they are quite muscular all over.

 

And. . . I think they both have an unnatural degree of muscle, as I said. I can see the difference, but at that point. . . eh, they all look weird to my personal aesthetic taste.

 

It was not my goal to make athleticism only reserved for the “top echelon of athleticism”. I could have used regular women in regular sports that aren’t in the Olympics too.

 

It is my experience that many regular women (not professional athletes or Olympians) who do sporty and athletic things in their regular lives ARE often sought after by many men who value that. Let's be 100% clear: Are you suggesting they are not? Not all men like the same thing, mind you, but I know oodles of guys who love a fit, athletic-minded woman!

 

Often guys use examples of Playmates or other women in visual media as an ideal. I think that using Olympians as another model isn’t far removed from that same ideal.

 

I don't honestly see it that often that it's Playmates, though in a thread about such things (pornography etc) it would make sense to use such pics. I'd say women who are out there in pop culture (singers, actresses, models) get used quite a bit, though, because they are easy to remember and the guys have seen them and found them attractive. It's kind of rude to post a picture of Suzie, your next door neighbor, as an example of a hot girl, too, so people post commonly known celebrities.

 

I never once said that it was a matter of what is right or what is wrong.

 

You have strongly implied you take some umbrage with it with statements like, "So why aren't women in the Olympics seen as more attractive then Playmates?"

 

And, on second thought: My question to that question would be. . . why on Earth would they be seen as more sexually attractive than the women whose whole job it is to appear sexually attractive? That would be downright bizarre. That's like asking why Olympians aren't considered better actors than those in Hollywood or better doctors than those who went to medical school. . . it's a totally different skill set. I don't think anyone is really suggesting that Playmates are more 'fit' than Olympians (and if they are, they're daft, in most cases - though there are some weird offshoot 'sports' in there some years).

 

If your question is, "If fitness is a part of attraction, why aren't Olympians the hottest," the answer is because it's not the sum total of attraction, just a part. That doesn't mean that fitness isn't a part of attraction and that many men aren't attracted to athletic girls, even.

 

I, like MC, am a bit baffled at the real purpose of the thread, and I don't mean that as a slight, just an observation. You've kind of bounced all over.

 

I thought you were aware of the pictures some LS men where posting since we were talking about it earlier when you said that you saw all types of women being posted?

 

I was talking about pics of the porn stars in the porn thread. Of course they were only posting porn stars there, they did so to show you the range of women in porn -- joystick and TW posted several. But that wasn't a thread where they were posting what they liked, just giving examples.

 

I am not “railing” against youth and beauty. I am only talking about the cultural obsession I find is real and true with youth and beauty.

 

Calling it a cultural obsession sounds like 'railing' to me. The tone you write with is very much one that seems critical of any industry that relies on aesthetic beauty.

 

You’re the one that said “have to” in your deodorant example.

 

Right have to wear it to not stink, just as one has to wear makeup (in my view) to look her best. Not has to, as in mandated to do so. People can do what they want as far as I'm concerned, but every woman on Earth looks a bit better with well-applied makeup than without, just as every woman on Earth probably smells better with deodorant on. And some need it more than others, etc, etc.

 

Oh wow, yeah, I totally disagree with that. I don't think aspiring to a level of beauty is "healthier" at all. There are so many dysfunctions in the model/actress world regarding beauty that this is really an impossilbe statement to make.

 

I'm not suggesting that all models and actresses are healthy. But on average. . . healthier than half the stuff done to get into the Olympics. More injuries are reported in training for and participating in the Olympics, % wise, than for actresses, models, etc, I'd imagine. More physical punishment to the body for sure. That level of athleticism is admirable, but it's not really about health. It's about achievement.

 

You are the one that is attaching different levels of work ethic on these two groups of people, I'm the one that said I wasn't sure who works harder since different things are required of both.

 

I'm not talking about the work ethic. I'm talking about the value you would assign to their work and goals. Do you think it's as valuable to be a fashion model or an actress, and maintain your looks for that reason through hard work, as it is to be an Olympian? Yes or no?