Women in the Olympics and body types

[xxoo]

I am just saying that if the barometer is not being attracted to extremes, yet still using Playmates as examples of attraction, that's still an extreme. Most women aren't Playmates. Most women age past the age of 25. Most women don't have two round perfect sized baseballs on their chest and poreless skin.

 

Yes, men are attracted to extremes of prettiness and symmetry; even babies are, apparently. And research shows that men are attracted to a defined hourglass shape, so a woman who is more hourglass than the average woman would naturally be seen as attractive.

 

But most aren't attracted to extremes in muscularity, thinness, fatness, breast size (most don't like extremely large, obviously fake implants), etc.

[123321]

You wouldn't be interested in a woman with the body of a world class athlete but you'd be interested in the body of a world class Playmate - so to speak.

 

Not true. I don't find most Playmates to be extremely attractive either, but the ones I named are pretty.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I guess you didn't read my post, so I'll reiterate:

 

Your favorite subject (repression & shame as a means of control) is something that I love to argue against. So, I will engage when I feel like it.

 

It's nothing personal.

 

Carry on!

 

And your favorite subject is me. I never said you couldn't engage. However you always make *me* the topic rather then the actual topic. So yes, clearly it's personal. People don't repeatedly make the poster, posting about items to talk about the subject if they aren't trying to be personal.

[Badsingularity]

I find women with athletic body types attractive, but I prefer women to be a little softer. Have a little squishiness to them.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Not true. I don't find most Playmates to be extremely attractive either, but the ones I named are pretty.

 

That pretty much bucks against everything I've ever heard a man say regarding women in popular male sexual entertainment media. Especially in regards to the popularity for Playmates. I think I am going to have to go with the majority of male opinions I experienced on this over yours 123. I've regularly heard men justify interest of such images of women under the notion of "fantasy" - the bigger then life protrayl of their sexuality and bodies. Now you are trying to claim the opposite. That these women aren't even that attractive. That these women aren't fantasy and just regular women. This fails to make any sense to me. Even among the very pretty women I know, none of them match the package presented in the image of Playmate. I don't even think the women that embody the image of Playmate embody the image of Playmate in real life. Yet, it's okay to hold women to such ideals because hey, it's all about male biology over absoluetely anything else that could come to play.

 

If Playmates are not not even considered extremely attractive by men, with the many tricks they use to look that way in those images, then I would venture that perceptions of beauty have even gotten even more out of hand. However, this has not been my general experience with men. Usually they put such images on pedetals even over their own woman in their life. And comments about how she is "real" is suppose to comfort her while he masturbates to 18 year olds.

 

I have no clue what men are looking for except the persistant and ever nagging desire for men to want to treat women like interchangable dolls who remain perputually young and perfect. And when they aren't, they will seek out those images and tell other women, "this is what I like, too bad about how that affects you", basically shaming women for not meeting his glorified ideal. It was like when you were hung up on over weight women specifically 123. You were basically shaming over weight women "advising" them now they can "fix" themselves to be attractive to *you* through shaming them about their bodies because they didn't mean your expectations. I have never heard the women of LS tell men ways they can make more money and suggest that the men of LS make more money to be a better catch. I have repeatedly over the years heard men talk about how women can change their bodies to make them more pleasing to them. Instead of just accepting women.

 

 

XXOO, I am aware that men like certain features on women. This however doesn't do much to solve anything regarding the affect and perception it has on women's bodies. Basically saying, "too bad, this is what men like", does nothing to address the conflict some women can have with this. I also don't think "extreme" ideals in the female body are healthy or natural as much as you are trying to claim they are. There is a tipping point that occurrs that I think starts way before giantic huge fake boobs or over thinness. I think it starts with the perception of "proportional" in our current culture. When women have to start implanting foriegn objects in their body to achieve an ideal, that is a man made perception, not a natural biological one. We are also not factoring in the conformity that factors in to ebbs and flows of beauty. Which doesn't have as much to do with natural biology as it might with trends and popularity. Such as in European countries how less breast obessed they appear to be in certain places then the US.

 

I understand that male biology has some strong pre-dispositions. But this alone doesn't do well in jusitifying or explaining some of the issues this can cause for women. Who have continued pressure to remain forever young with perfect bodies, least the ybe cast aside for whatever the new flavor of the month is.

 

And perhaps your advice to that would be something along the lines of women needing to be stronger then that and realizing that there is more to them then their bodies. Excellent advice that I would agree with! However, how come we never tell men that in regards to women's bodies? How come we justify male response to women and how the ybehave but we condemn women for having their own responses to such biological or socially constructed elements?

 

It appears that women are expected with undue pressure to be above such pressures while we justify men buying into such messages. We expect women to rise above these messages and not have these things concern them even as we justify men doing the exact opposite. And why? Because men get horny? It's okay to exploit certain ideas of women and feminity into a narrowly defined ideal because men simply like it? How is that a good message?

 

Its a real head scratcher for me, the repeated advice for women to be better then said depictions to not let these depictiosn influence them yet the justifications for men in letting these images influence them. Media is not mearly a construct of "natural" desires. While that plays it's part, it's also over pontificated in unhealthy extremes and gross generalizations.

[xxoo]

I understand that male biology has some strong pre-dispositions. But this alone doesn't do well in jusitifying or explaining some of the issues this can cause for women. Who have continued pressure to remain forever young with perfect bodies, least the ybe cast aside for whatever the new flavor of the month is.

 

I'm no longer "young" according to how the word has been used in this thread, nor is my body "perfect" (again, as judged by the thread), but I haven't been cast aside by anyone. IME, the problem isn't nearly that bad in real life, with real couples, real friends, real men, and real women.

 

And perhaps your advice to that would be something along the lines of women needing to be stronger then that and realizing that there is more to them then their bodies. Excellent advice that I would agree with! However, how come we never tell men that in regards to women's bodies?

 

Because they don't have women's bodies?

 

Seriously, if a man is struggling to find real women attractive, or find his own mate attractive, I'd talk to him (the individual) about his issues with women's bodies. But this is not my impression of grown men in general. Very young men moreso, but they generally grow up and develop more mature tastes.

[Badsingularity]

Well, DY, I'm going to have to agree with mr.numbers and say that I also don't find many of the playmates that attractive. Too fake.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Xxoo

I'm no longer "young" according to how the word has been used in this thread, nor is my body "perfect" (again, as judged by the thread), but I haven't been cast aside by anyone. IME, the problem isn't nearly that bad in real life, with real couples, real friends, real men, and real women.

 

Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Lots of men lamblast women for getting older.

 

i also don't think a man has to physically leave his wife for my statement to be true in a way. Lots of men love their partners but continue to masturbate to the same age group of girls that are much younger then themselves or their own partners. I know that this will be justified on the back of biology. Okay great, men like young women. But that doesn't do much for a woman. Expecting a woman to not be influenced by this while we justify men being influenced by this, is not fair.

 

Because they don't have women's bodies?

 

You completely misunderstood what I was saying XXOO. A man doesn't need to have a woman's body. We hold women to a higher level of over coming certain natural biologies then we hold men to. Especially in this case. When a woman si bothered by her man looking at certain material, she is told she needs to get over it and she is insecure and she is this or that. There is no acceptance of her and what may be issues for her based on her completley natural reaction to what is going on. When a man reacts to certain material it's justified because of his biology. But we ignore the part of female biology that is protective of her mate and his interest in her and what his interest, even just visually, in other women *may* mean. I am not saying he is going to leave her. However, the threat of the interest is still there if his actions are ones of seeking out other women visually. Just as he responds to the visual images one way, she responds to it another way. yet we basically advice women to put aside their feelings and evolve to a greater place of understanding then we request of men. Such as your advice that that's the way it is because of male biology.

 

This has nothign to do with men needing female bodies. It has to do with the fact that we expect things of women in this regard that we do not expect of men .We expect women to only react positively to her mates interest in other women and if she doesn't, she is suppose to control those urges. Yet men are allowed to respond to their own urges and it's justified in doing so.

 

Seriously, if a man is struggling to find real women attractive, or find his own mate attractive, I'd talk to him (the individual) about his issues with women's bodies. But this is not my impression of grown men in general. Very young men moreso, but they generally grow up and develop more mature tastes.

 

I said nothing about a man struggling to find real women attractive or his own mate attractive. I was mearly talking about his attraction to other women. Yes, we all know biology is involved. Yet we justify it where men is concerned in his lust for other women and condemn women that struggle with his lust for other women and expect them to be more highly evolved then we expect him to be.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Well, DY, I'm going to have to agree with mr.numbers and say that I also don't find many of the playmates that attractive. Too fake.

 

so what is your ideal kind of women then Bandsingularity?

[xxoo]

You completely misunderstood what I was saying XXOO. A man doesn't need to have a woman's body.

 

It was a joke, hence the "lmao" smiley.

 

 

I said nothing about a man struggling to find real women attractive or his own mate attractive. I was mearly talking about his attraction to other women. Yes, we all know biology is involved. Yet we justify it where men is concerned in his lust for other women and condemn women that struggle with his lust for other women and expect them to be more highly evolved then we expect him to be.

 

Are you saying that it is a big problem that men who are attracted to "real women", and are attracted to their mates, are also attracted to other women in addition to their mate?

 

I fundamentally disagree with that being a problem at all.

 

eta...women have lust and attractions beyond their primary relationship, too. This is not a problem, imo. Making an issue out of this very normal human feeling is a problem to me!

Edited July 14, 2012 by xxoo

[123321]

That pretty much bucks against everything I've ever heard a man say regarding women in popular male sexual entertainment media. Especially in regards to the popularity for Playmates. I think I am going to have to go with the majority of male opinions I experienced on this over yours 123.

 

There's a difference in "photographs well" and "is extremely attractive in person", and on top of that I have to admit a lot of my aversion to Playmates is my dislike of bolt-on body parts. I've been with women who have those and it's not nice.

 

Now young guys who've not experienced that and don't know better, well maybe they would feel (*snicker*) differently.

 

 

It was like when you were hung up on over weight women specifically 123. You were basically shaming over weight women "advising" them now they can "fix" themselves to be attractive to *you* through shaming them about their bodies because they didn't mean your expectations.

 

If American women in general want to be more attractive to men in general, they can, in many cases, shed some weight. It's hard to do but simple to figure out. I'm sorry if that idea weighs heavy on you.

 

 

It appears that women are expected with undue pressure to be above such pressures while we justify men buying into such messages. We expect women to rise above these messages and not have these things concern them even as we justify men doing the exact opposite.

 

Men and women both have to deal with their own sets of expectations. If you really want to explore that we can but I think it's probably enough to just say it and leave it at that.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Xxoo

It was a joke, hence the "lmao" smiley.

 

My bad. I clearly missed that.

 

Are you saying that it is a big problem that men who are attracted to "real women", and are attracted to their mates, are also attracted to other women in addition to their mate?

 

It depends on too many factors to make the blanket statement that it's not a problem or that it is a problem. Sure sometimes it can be. No matter how natural it is to be attracted to others. What I am really saying is that all feelings are natural in their own right. If a woman is bothered by her man's prolictivities when it comes to other women, I think this is just as much a natural way to feel about it as it might be for him to be turned on by other women. However, we tell women to be above such things, such as telling her "too bad", it's just that way for x,y or z biological reason, expecting her not to have certain reactions or feelings even if they are biological ones in response to his interest in other women .I think I've been clear about what I am saying.

 

A simple "this person is attractive" is natural. It's the focusing and idealism and pedestal placing that brings a different element into the picture.

 

 

Are you saying that it is a big problem that men who are attracted to "real women", and are attracted to their mates, are also attracted to other women in addition to their mate?

 

I fundamentally disagree with that being a problem at all.

 

Yes I know. You used the biology reason before to justify it.

 

Making an issue out of this very normal human feeling is a problem to me!

 

But that's exactly what I am talking about. Shaming one form of normal human feelings infavor of other normal human feelings instead of recongnizing that both set of feelings, even if at odds with one another is normal. I am not saying attraction to others isn't normal. However how someone can feel in response to their partner's attraction to others is JUST as normal. To deny one set of normal feelings in favor of another is what is a problem to me.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

If American women in general want to be more attractive to men in general, they can, in many cases, shed some weight. It's hard to do but simple to figure out.

 

You are overly fixated on women loosing weight to conform them to what *you* want them to be. However, I was never just talking about weight. It was you that repeatedly focused on that because of your own issues concerning women and weight. But please, please continue to laminate on weight so you can avoid talking about anything else.

 

I

'm sorry if that idea weighs heavy on you.

 

You had that one moment when you were actually funny and clever then you resort back to this. What a waste.

 

Men and women both have to deal with their own sets of expectations. If you really want to explore that we can but I think it's probably enough to just say it and leave it at that.

 

Generic response like this do nothing for the converation.

[xxoo]

A simple "this person is attractive" is natural. It's the focusing and idealism and pedestal placing that brings a different element into the picture.

 

The focus, idealism, and pedestal placing are more points to debate, what constitutes each of those? I am talking about men naturally being attracted, and maybe having some sexual thoughts about random women--all while focusing daily on, idealizing, and placing their partner on a pedestal--like a normal guy.

 

But that's exactly what I am talking about. Shaming one form of normal human feelings infavor of other normal human feelings instead of recongnizing that both set of feelings, even if at odds with one another is normal. I am not saying attraction to others isn't normal. However how someone can feel in response to their partner's attraction to others is JUST as normal. To deny one set of normal feelings in favor of another is what is a problem to me.

 

No one is saying that she should deny her feelings, or that she should be shamed. But it is another thing entirely to expect him to change in order for her to stop having negative feelings if he is doing nothing wrong.

 

Expecting a partner to change their normal behavior to accomodate another's insecurities is unhealthy, and sometimes abusive.

[123321]

You are overly fixated on women loosing weight ...

 

IMO the majority of American women would be attractive if they would drop to an attractive weight. I'm certain I'm far from alone in that estimation, excessive fat is the #1 reason for women being unattractive in America and as such it deserves the most attention.

[Mme. Chaucer]

This morning I was listening to an episode of "This American Life," which IMO is one of our true national treasures, and Ira Glass was talking about a children's book entitled "Nobody's Family is Going to Change" by Louise Fitzhugh. It made me think of this threads and all the others like it. Here is an excerpt:

 

And then, finally towards the end of the book, sitting at dinner, as her father and brother rehash the same fight that they always have, Emma realizes that her parents will never change. Her dad will always be harsh, will never treat her or her brother like he cares about them, and that she can't change him and shouldn't try. And the best she can do is change herself.

So she goes and tells her friends, who have trouble understanding it. There's a scene.

 

"What about my father?" asked Golden.

 

"Your father," said Saunders, "is a lost cause. He thinks boys are great, and he's never going to think you're anything because you're a girl."

 

"Well," says Golden, "I can't change that."

 

"No, but you could stop wanting him to change," said Saunders.

 

Emma felt like the top of her head would fly off. Saunders got it, the whole thing. "That's what I mean," said Emma loudly. "That's just what I'm talking about. We have to stop waiting around for them to love us."

 

Just a note: the kid isn't going to change herself to try to be more lovable or accepted by here parents. She is going to change HERSELF so she can be empowered DESPITE the dysfunction going on all around her.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

The focus, idealism, and pedestal placing are more points to debate, what constitutes each of those? I am talking about men naturally being attracted, and maybe having some sexual thoughts about random women--all while focusing daily on, idealizing, and placing their partner on a pedestal--like a normal guy.

 

I suspect our ideals of "focus, idealism and pedestal placing" will be different. We already know I believe that many men do these type of things all too regularly and that you will most likely disagree with that. It seems to me that your justification for these things is simply because men are horny/biology/like it. But that isn't a good enough justification for me considering the complexities of the human experience/condition and relationships.

 

I have never said it wasn't "natural" to be attracted to other people. I repeated this earlier to you. So I am not sure why this is all you focus on to "explain" things. You continually ignore where I said that being attracted to other people is natural. However, the fact is that it is just as "natural" to be bothered by a mates focus or interest in the opposite sex. Especially if they are taking certain actions (and I consider looking at porn or stock piling pictures of young women) to satisfy their urges. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that while men lusting after other women is natural, so is it natural to have your own feelings toward your mates interest in other people. However, what it comes down to is simply this: men are horny so everything to do within the biological/natural/sexual element is okay. But I don't agree with that at all. I don't think that just because certain thigns can be be deemed natural, that it makes it right or that you ignore the other "natural" elements that play into the whole picture. Not just a piece of the picture.

 

 

 

No one is saying that she should deny her feelings, or that she should be shamed. But it is another thing entirely to expect him to change in order for her to stop having negative feelings if he is doing nothing wrong.

 

Doesn't that adive work both ways? It is another thing entirely to expect her to change as well? Especially if she isn't doing anything wrong?

 

I also don't have the philosphey that people only need to change when the yare doing something "wrong". I find that throughout my life I wasn't neccesarily doing things "wrong" but I still changed my behaviors because it certainly was an improvement from what I was doing before.

 

Expecting a partner to change their normal behavior to accomodate another's insecurities is unhealthy, and sometimes abusive.

 

And expecting one partner to deny their own "natural" feelings in justification over the other's biological "urges" that they probably are getting met through their partner oftentimes anyway, is also unhealthy and sometimes abusive.

 

It appears to me that your argument places a higher worth on (male) sexual urges/desires/whims/feelings then you do emotional urges/desires/whims/feelings. Because your argument always boils down to what men *need* (this term is being used loosely) sexually over what their partner could possibly *need* emotionally.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

IMO the majority of American women would be attractive if they would drop to an attractive weight. I'm certain I'm far from alone in that estimation, excessive fat is the #1 reason for women being unattractive in America and as such it deserves the most attention.

 

You are overly fixated on women loosing weight.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Just a note: the kid isn't going to change herself to try to be more lovable or accepted by here parents. She is going to change HERSELF so she can be empowered DESPITE the dysfunction going on all around her.

 

This is really great Mme. Very sound advice. And I loved the way you worded it. And I agree with it. I just don't think that knowing that it's up to you, how you deal with things, negates problems people can still encounter or pointing out problems someone may see socially.

 

I certainly handle these problems better then when I was younger. When I was younger I was so eager to make my guy happy, to please men, that I pushed out what I really wanted in favor of making them happy and being praised by them. I catered to who they wanted me to be and not who I really was. I slowly learned to stop doing that and began to ask more for what I wanted and stop pretending I liked things that I dind't. I still work on that but I have gotten light years better and not accepting the things I didn't like and stopped pretending I was someone I wasn't to please someone else.

[123321]

You are overly fixated on women loosing weight.

 

I don't care if they have loose weight or tight weight, whatever that means, but I stand by my statement that the #1 issue that reduces the attractiveness of women in America is excess weight, and by extension, excessive feeding.

 

For some reason you dislike the fact that I am willing to point this out honestly but it's a simple fact. When guys say they want an "athletic build" they are using a tactful way of saying they want someone slender and physically fit, they are NOT generally saying they are seeking a marathoning partner.

[xxoo]

It appears to me that your argument places a higher worth on (male) sexual urges/desires/whims/feelings then you do emotional urges/desires/whims/feelings. Because your argument always boils down to what men *need* (this term is being used loosely) sexually over what their partner could possibly *need* emotionally.

 

I don't approach this as a male/female issue, because I've been on both sides of the issue, as has my partner. Both of us has been in the position of having sexual urges/desires/whims/feelings that are absolutely normal, and both of us have been in the position of having negative feelings/insecurities/jealousy which are absolutely normal.

 

Neither is more valid than the other, but neither is necessarily a reason for the partner to change their behavior, or thoughts. I can empathize with my partner being jealous and insecure, and support my partner through it, without taking responsibility for it if I'm doing nothing wrong.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I don't care if they have loose weight or tight weight, whatever that means, but I stand by my statement that the #1 issue that reduces the attractiveness of women in America is excess weight, and by extension, excessive feeding.

 

For some reason you dislike the fact that I am willing to point this out honestly but it's a simple fact. When guys say they want an "athletic build" they are using a tactful way of saying they want someone slender and physically fit, they are NOT generally saying they are seeking a marathoning partner.

 

I don't think you are being that "honest" actually. Weight is certainly a problem in the USA. For men and for women. It can lead to health issues naturally. But you are only able to see weight. It's not a balanced viewpoint. As I said before, you are too obessed with women's weight.

 

If what you want is someone "slender and physically fit", then say that. Not pretty it up into "I want someone athletic" when what you really care about is the way someone looks, not their athletic ability or skills or health. It's about looks. So be honest about it. To me, it's a false picture to say "I like athletic ladies" when what you really like might not have anything to do with athleticsm as long as the women are reasonably thin.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I don't approach this as a male/female issue, because I've been on both sides of the issue, as has my partner. Both of us has been in the position of having sexual urges/desires/whims/feelings that are absolutely normal, and both of us have been in the position of having negative feelings/insecurities/jealousy which are absolutely normal.

 

Neither is more valid than the other, but neither is necessarily a reason for the partner to change their behavior, or thoughts. I can empathize with my partner being jealous and insecure, and support my partner through it, without taking responsibility for it if I'm doing nothing wrong.

 

I almost agree. Neither is more valid then the other. Except in this discussion, male feelings/desires are continually highlighted as being more valid. Which is why the advice always seem sto come down to basically, "well he is a man and it's natural". While we expect women to rise about their own natural feelings.

 

I also wouldn't automatically connect feelings with "insecurities and jealousy". I do think we have certain internal warning bells built into our systems that jealously will flair when we think there is a potential for a threat. Whether the threat is really there or not.

 

I also find the focus off key when we are simply focused on "wrong" or "right" behaviors. I don't think relationships just fall onto issues because of one partner being "wrong" or one being "right". Sometimes when people have different ideas about something it doesn't mean that one person has to be doing something "wrong" for something to change.

[joystickd]

I actually like a body like this

She gets a gold medal.

Edited July 16, 2012 by joystickd

[123321]

I'm no longer "young" according to how the word has been used in this thread, nor is my body "perfect" (again, as judged by the thread), but I haven't been cast aside by anyone.

 

It's conflated with the things I and others find attractive. I wouldn't throw a woman away over something so minor as aging, a few pounds, or whatever, but if I'm shopping for a NEW GF I will and have passed over women for being too heavy, too old, or a variety of other things.

 

There's being loyal and then there's being appropriately selective. Apples meet oranges.

 

 

I don't think you are being that "honest" actually. Weight is certainly a problem in the USA. For men and for women. It can lead to health issues naturally. But you are only able to see weight. It's not a balanced viewpoint. As I said before, you are too obessed with women's weight.

 

I have a lot of criteria but weight is the one that American women most consistently flunk, so I mention it more.

 

 

If what you want is someone "slender and physically fit", then say that.

 

And so I do.