Disclosure

[Spark1111]

Not necessarily so. The fact that she asked her friend to cover up doesn't mean she wanted to 'use' her friend. It was stupid of her to ask her friend to do so, but it shows two things: How illogical she was thinking and how much she trusted her friend to ask her to cover up. She was not acting rational, NO ONE in a similar situation think rational - they need help. The OP should have considered different ways of helping her.

 

Why? Why did Seren need to come up with different ways of helping her? Why was that her job?

 

This woman is an adult, not a child who needs to be protected by the adults closest to her in her life.

 

If this woman was not acting rationally, all the more reason to disclose the truth and garner support or help for this woman.

 

The woman's H is also Seren's friend after 20 plus years. Should she have allowed her unrational friend to just continue on her way while her other friend is gaslit and blindsided?

 

Or, should she have just stuck her head in the sand and kept the woman's secrets? How is that being a helpful friend?

 

How could she help this woman without hurting her friendship with her H? Especially in light of what Seren and her H went through?

 

How would you have helped this friend?

 

Do people believe that they can take advantage of a friendship to help them collude and conspire to deceive their spouse who also happens to be their friend?

 

Is that their idea of friendship?

[96nole]

When she decided to tell the H, she made it 'her business'. And when you have made it your business, you have to own it.

 

I have noticed that many members on this forum project their own issues and hurt when responding, mostly female. I'm sure 90% of all those who rallied around the OP are female.

 

People like Emme and Realist have a definite unbiased objectiveness to their posts. Before you get on your high horse: The transgressor in this case, is going through tremendous psychological and emotional issues, so is her husband. Here is my question:

 

IF THE TRANSGRESSOR WENT TO SEE A PERSON I.E. A LIFE COACH OR COUNSELOR, WOULD THEY HAVE GIVEN HER AN ULTIMATUM AND TOLD THE H? Definitely not. In her time of confusion, she turned to her best friend, who, as stated by the OP herself, assisted her as a friend with other past issues.

 

What her friend did by cheating was wrong, but the OP had no right to tell the H. Full stop. It was not her business.

 

{HAND RAISED HIGH} Male here and I fully support Seren's actions.

 

Also, wasn't it pointed out earlier that Emme was an OW at one point. As such she does NOT have an unbiased or objective approach to her post. She was willingly in an affair and is supporting that this affair should have continued without Seren's involvement.

 

"Full stop": nope, sorry it doesn't work that way. Seren was involved the minute her friend used her as an alibi. Seren was involved the minute she was asked to lie. Seren is also friends with the husband. Thus it is her business. Especially when her honor and respect can be called into question. She warned her friend, yet the friend did not heed her warnings.

[2sunny]

When my exH was cheating he traveled a lot to see his married OW. My FIL often went with him - I have thought many times over the past 7 years that my FIL knew - and never told me - went along with it all and turned a blind eye... Therefore also PARTICIPATING in the betrayal of my M by not speaking up - I would have appreciated his truth.i would have loved him MORE for it! Instead I feel betrayed by him - I thought I loved him - but my FIL never told me what was happening.

 

He stayed quiet and closed his eyes and mouth - it hurts just thinking that he knew and never said a word.

 

When I did find out on my own- he acted as sheepish as my exH - that told me everything he wouldn't say.

 

Betrayal runs deep when others cover for the lies. When someone "goes along with it" it's a pain that is bigger than if they hadn't known at all.

[woinlove]

When she decided to tell the H, she made it 'her business'. And when you have made it your business, you have to own it.

 

I have noticed that many members on this forum project their own issues and hurt when responding, mostly female. I'm sure 90% of all those who rallied around the OP are female.

 

People like Emme and Realist have a definite unbiased objectiveness to their posts. Before you get on your high horse: The transgressor in this case, is going through tremendous psychological and emotional issues, so is her husband. Here is my question:

 

IF THE TRANSGRESSOR WENT TO SEE A PERSON I.E. A LIFE COACH OR COUNSELOR, WOULD THEY HAVE GIVEN HER AN ULTIMATUM AND TOLD THE H? Definitely not. In her time of confusion, she turned to her best friend, who, as stated by the OP herself, assisted her as a friend with other past issues.

 

What her friend did by cheating was wrong, but the OP had no right to tell the H. Full stop. It was not her business.

 

I think you miss the concepts here. Seren is not a paid professional, she is friends with these people and cares about them personally. A professional would need to refer you to another professional if she cared personally about you. Seren's friend said she understands why Seren told and would want to be told too. So, Seren not only made the right choice by choosing openness and honesty with her friends, but both friends (the BH and the WW) understand this. Not sure where you are coming from, as this is very different than a paid, professional interaction.

[Gagirl]

I planned on telling someone about her husband's numerous affairs and then I met her. I couldn't bear the thought of ruining her and her children's lives or causing so much hurt and pain to her. I chose not to say anything. When a marriage reaches this point it's only a matter of time. Just can't bring myself to hurt someone like that even if it is supposed to help them.

[Emme]

She was trying to give her friend a chance.

 

I gave the OM a chance before telling his wife as well.

 

 

I read her statement. My stand will always be it is not your tale to tell.

 

Many people have this notion that because they know a family/individual they have a eye into their life and they don't. What they have is a window. No matter how close a friend you might be. No one knows what happens in a family when the doors are shut.

 

You tell a tale... be prepared for what might come. People who cheat bring a loaded gun and bullets in their lives. It's one thing that they are present. It's another when someone comes in loads the gun and hands it to the spouse. Some don't view things that way and they should. John/Steve and Karen/Susan might look normal... but they might be unstable. If you tell someone's business and the outcome ends in a catastrophe, It doesn't absolve you from what happened, blood is on your hands. The cheater lined up the dominos and the story teller decided to take that index finger and knock them all down. If you decide that a summer funeral is better than a winter one it's on you. When you involve yourself there are many outcomes. Make sure you have assessed someone losing their life and you the story teller losing yours. It does happen.

 

I saw she gave her friend a chance. I don't have the details as to what her process was. All I see is tell or I will. People who cheat are stubborn, hard headed. Not thinking in their right frame of mind. You can lead a mule to water but you can't make them drink. My job as a friend is to get them to drink, willingly. There would be have been a process. The stages would be conversations to find out what's going on in her life. Next step if there's a circle of friends, intervention. Prayer works as well. Next step would lead to me eventually ending our friendship if she didn't get her act together and do what she needed to do.

 

 

In Emme's enablers world if you find out your friend is dealing drugs or maybe a pedophile, you keep you mouth shut

 

Please don't make references to pedophile's and adults who make the conscious choice to cheat in the same context. Thank you.

 

 

I don't think when one is talking about how one deals with a situation involving close friends it is a matter of front row seats.

 

I was in a similar situation to Seren, but where I was closest to the betrayed spouse and discovered her H was cheating (who was also a friend, but not as nearly as close to me). I told my friend and having the truth out in the open did end the A and they successfully rebuilt their M. But it also caused some problems in our friendship as the H originally blamed me. We remained friends but not as close, as the energy all went into the M and that took priority over our friendship. At the time, I felt bad, but later I saw it in perspective.

 

There was nothing 'front row seat' about my motivation or feelings, and I'm sure the same holds for Seren. It is more about compassion, integrity, respect and treating others the way we would want to be treated. For those of us who have not cheated on our spouses, I think it is common to feel that we would want the A outed, no matter what our role, betrayed or betrayer, because we think to betray our spouse in that way would mean we were really off the rails and in need of help.

 

 

You don't like the term front row seats that's ok. It's a term I used to put emphasis on someone who is present and close to what's unfolding.

 

It's great you chose your route to come forward. Not every person will. There are people who make the choice not to get involved. They have that right to make that choice. If you chose to get involved my opinion is its best that the information comes from the spouse. As a friend it would be my job to apply pressure. It can be done. If you choose to help, put more energy into having someone come forward with there mistakes rather than doing it for them. You're an adult not a child, I will not clean up your mess.

 

A front row seat? hmm, if I wanted a front row seat to watch a drama unfold it would be because I wanted to see it. Which is so far from how things are, I was plonked in the front row seat by being used as an excuse for my friend (she is still my friend) to see the OM. I found out because she asked that I say she was with me, when in fact she was with the OM. We had always talked about if either of us knew the other's spouse had an A whether would we tell. Both of us agreed we would and that not to would damage our friendship, she also knows that I own my actions and if I had done something wrong, own up and take whatever is coming my way. This isn't me being the big moralist, but how I was raised, owning your actions is a big, big thing in my life. Of course I understand that by telling it has opened a can of worms, of course I question my motives, but creating drama for the sake of it so far from the intention. TBH, my friend understands this, having spoken to her, she holds no grudges against me and owns her own actions too. Will it damage our friendship? I hope not, but it probably will.

 

When she asked if I would lie for her I told her no, I asked if she was having an A and she said yes. Much conversation later, I asked if she loved the OM and the answer was no it was becasue it was exciting and that she had no intention of leaving her H and loved him, again more conversation and I said either leave your H, leave the OM or tell H, and yes, I said that if she didn't then I would tell him.

 

Does that make me play God? maybe, Was it my call to say those things? maybe not, but the alternative was to knowingly be used for excuses and knowingly enable the A. I asked on more than one occasion if it had ended and it was a case of I shall do it when we meet next and so on. I am then asked a few days later to lie and say she was coming to me for the weekend and I could not do it, her H asked if I knew if there was anything wrong, he asked if she was ill and was hiding from him and also if she had anyone else as she had been weird the past few days and I told him.

No, I am not proud, I use LS to speak about it as it is anonymous and no one else will know. But maybe you're right and I am looking for validation, TBH the strongest validation has been from my friend as she said if it had been her H who was having the A she would be pissed off I had given him time.

 

Pick your body up out of that front row she plonked you in and walk away. You chose not to take part in her lies good for you. You did not have to be an enabler in that A. Not at all. Drama is drama... it would unfold. How it unfolds can be contained. That is my point. What else could have been done. It's my view that when a third party gives info it twists the knife in the wound even more. The fact that someone who doesn't know me is telling me rather than the person I sleep next to at night.

 

When I say own it, I mean you should not apologize for your actions. Be proud, what's done is done. Whatever decisions you make in life you stand firm behind it. Screw the sister, neighbors and the dogs. No sulking, brush it off.

 

 

It is early days but I hope they can reconcile, they are back in the same house and have asked if me and H will go around next weekend to talk about what worked for us. I don't want to do this, but we probably will. I don't want, need or invited the drama, in fact I just wish I didn't know about it all, more to the point, I wish it hadn't happened at all.

 

The dilemma was that both are very good friends, to keep the secret of one would have meant lying to the other, to walk away after 55 years of intertwined lives and friendship is not easy and we would have missed each other. If I have a soulmate, she is it and I for her. No her actions were not that of a good friend, possibly mine weren't either and we will speak about that, later. For now the focus is on them both, as it should be. Do I still feel like crap? yes of course. The one thing that has jumped out of all this is her saying that if it had been he having the A, then she wouldn't forgive me if I hadn't told her and so can forgive what I have done.

 

My friend is owning her actions as I own mine. So, no front row seat, no drama seeking, I have never been a Drama Queen and if I choose to go to watch a play unfold, it will always be one I have chosen to buy tickets for. This sad, sorry situation is not one I would have chosen for any of us.

 

If you don't want to go, then don't go. If you don't want to get involved, don't. This is what I mean by front row seat, being so involved in the details of what's going on where you need not be. If you feel the need to help give them some notes with information, sites that helped you. Worry about your own marriage. Focus on that. Stop beating yourself up.

 

Let me get this straight. It was okay for Seren to tell the truth to the BS as long as she didn't own she was the one exposing...anonymously. But because she showed integrity and tried to let her friend the BS know face to face and with compassion so she could offer comfort and support (to both of them) she was wrong. Got it. Do the right thing as long as you hide.

 

There is no wrong. The way someone approaches a situation that differs from others doesn't make it wrong. My point was why get involved by putting yourself in an already complicated situation. Take yourself out of the equation. There is not shame in hiding. Many whistle blowers have done it and it's a choice one chooses to make. Not everyone wants to take part in watching a relationship crumble first hand.

 

I really don't like that you're implying that Seren did this out of spite. You're trying to make her look like a manipulative person and enjoying the drama (front seat?? Come on Emme..) that you think she created.

 

Only thing that counts now is finally the husband knows the truth and can now make a decision about his marriage.

 

I don't imply anything. My posts are straight forward. If I thought she was spiteful I would have said it. I'm direct. I do not know Seren. My response is to alexandria35 statement in bold below.

 

I think some people in this situation might decide not to tell the husband and they might have some good reasons for that too. It's a personal decision that one has to make based on their own morals and convictions. However to say that one friend should anonymously tell on another friend, then sit back and watch the fireworks while pretending to have no involvement whatsoever really blows my mind. What a horrible nasty friend that would be.

[woinlove]

I think the point is that Seren values honesty and openness with her friends and they seem to too, despite the fact that one was cheating and behaving in a way which betrayed those values. I'm like that too, and my friends are like that too, and so they would expect me to be open and honest with them. Our friends would feel betrayed if we knew and went along with the deception.

 

Not everyone feels the same about honesty and deception and, for those who feel differently from Seren, if your friends share your values too, then perhaps they expect you not to tell. However, this doesn't apply to Seren's case. I don't see how one can criticize Seren or suggest she should have behaved differently, when she stayed true to her values and her friends understand those values, and each would want to be told in this situation.

Edited June 26, 2012 by woinlove

[Got it]

Having been in the same spot, I had a friend who I asked told me she was coming to visit my area and I thought to hang out. I then got asked to be her alibi if her husband called looking for her.

 

That never happened but I didn't appreciate being put in that position. If she choice to lie to him that is between them but I didn't appreciate being asked to do it without being given an option.

 

We didn't speak really after that. I did not choose to say anything to her husband but felt that was a breach of our friendship and ended things.

[Silly_Girl]

 

It is odd, because had she murdered someone I would be at her side supporting her, but this, no, I cannot condone any of it

 

I think this quote shows why your friend believed she could trust you and thought you were on her team. I don't think she realised that your loyalty would differ depending on the 'crime', if you see what I mean.

[woinlove]

I think this quote shows why your friend believed she could trust you and thought you were on her team. I don't think she realised that your loyalty would differ depending on the 'crime', if you see what I mean.

 

If you have BTDT, there is a huge difference between helping a friend who did something harmful and who is doing something harmful and can't or won't stop. In the former, one wants to help them deal with the past and live a better future while in the latter, one wants to help them end their destructive behavior. If they are addicted or not thinking straight, it can be very difficult to help them see reality. In any case, one usually does not want to simply stand by and condone it, one wants to think of some way of helping them stop and getting to a better place.

 

IMO, it sounds more like the reason her friend thought Seren would lie for her was because she was really caught up in something that was changing her in a bad way. What makes me think this is her friend saying she understands why Seren told the truth and would have wanted her to do the same if she was in the position of her H. Sounds like lying is not her friend's usual mode of operation.

[Spark1111]

I think this quote shows why your friend believed she could trust you and thought you were on her team. I don't think she realised that your loyalty would differ depending on the 'crime', if you see what I mean.

 

I think it goes to judgement.

 

If my best friend murdered someone, I would assume there were horrific extenuating circumstances and I would be inclined not to pass judgement until I had all the facts.

 

If my best friend were having an affair and I knew and loved her spouse too, I had better hear that he was a monster behind closed doors. Even still, I would do everything in my power to have her confess and end the marriage as soon as possible.

 

If my best friend is having an affair; claims she loves her H, but it feels great to have excitement in her life, not she is abusing, lying to and hurting two people for very selfish reasons.

 

I would do exactly as Seren did and I understand it completely.

[Silly_Girl]

I wasn't arguing, but I think if Seren's friend was aware of that sentiment ("I'd stand by her if she murdered someone") she probably believed that no matter what she did she could rely on Seren. They had a strong friendship over many years and I suspect her friend thought (incorrectly) that trumped everything.

[woinlove]

I wasn't arguing, but I think if Seren's friend was aware of that sentiment ("I'd stand by her if she murdered someone") she probably believed that no matter what she did she could rely on Seren. They had a strong friendship over many years and I suspect her friend thought (incorrectly) that trumped everything.

 

Actually, I think Seren did behave as a true friend, so friendship triumphed, and it is quite likely her friend will also see it that way in the future, given what she said about understanding and wanting to be said. Some might think lying for the friend or keeping the deception secret from the H would have been friendship, but I don't think that is the case. It really depends on how you want to be treated by your friends. If I was lying, asking my friends to lie, and risking what I didn't want to lose, I would hope my friends would figure out a way to get me out of that state.

 

I get the impression that Seren's view of friendship is more in line with her friends' view, so how much does it matter if others here have a different view and choose a different kind of friend?

[whichwayisup]

I think this quote shows why your friend believed she could trust you and thought you were on her team. I don't think she realised that your loyalty would differ depending on the 'crime', if you see what I mean.

 

Respectfully, just will say that S's friend knew what S went through when S's husband cheated. She knew the devastation, the pain and heartache. So on some level that friend should have known S wouldn't approve and support her during the A, let alone lie/cover for her.

[whichwayisup]

I wasn't arguing, but I think if Seren's friend was aware of that sentiment ("I'd stand by her if she murdered someone") she probably believed that no matter what she did she could rely on Seren. They had a strong friendship over many years and I suspect her friend thought (incorrectly) that trumped everything.

 

On some level don't you think that friend was in the wrong to even approach Seren, ask her to lie and cover for her (though that friend already did use S an excuse without her knowledge) because of her knowledge that she knew S was a BS, saw what she went through? It's pretty inconsiderate and inappropriate.. Now if she wasn't aware of S's H cheating, then I could see your point more and agree with it.. But that isn't the case. THe friend knew all along, how S felt about affairs etc.. So I think that friend has some pretty big balls to expect S to lie for her.

[Silly_Girl]

On some level don't you think that friend was in the wrong to even approach Seren, ask her to lie and cover for her (though that friend already did use S an excuse without her knowledge) because of her knowledge that she knew S was a BS, saw what she went through? It's pretty inconsiderate and inappropriate.. Now if she wasn't aware of S's H cheating, then I could see your point more and agree with it.. But that isn't the case. THe friend knew all along, how S felt about affairs etc.. So I think that friend has some pretty big balls to expect S to lie for her.

 

I wasn't saying whether I think it's right the friend behaved that way. I was just saying what I think her friend was feeling when she felt able to ask Seren to cover for her. Her pal wasn't thinking about S's feelings about the scenario, she was thinking more about how much Seren loves her, and how Seren has and would always stand by her.

 

You guys see her actions as a sign of disrespect, and I see that, however it also shows how safe and loved she felt with Seren that DESPITE the subject matter, she turned to her. That's how great of a friend she feels Seren to be. That was the only point I was making, I wasn't defending her.

[Silly_Girl]

I get the impression that Seren's view of friendship is more in line with her friends' view, so how much does it matter if others here have a different view and choose a different kind of friend?

 

This confused me a little because the friend asked Seren to lie for her to assist in facilitating her affair, Seren was mortified by this and told the husband - I see that as the total opposite of what you've said here.

[woinlove]

This confused me a little because the friend asked Seren to lie for her to assist in facilitating her affair, Seren was mortified by this and told the husband - I see that as the total opposite of what you've said here.

 

And then afterwards, she said she understood why Seren told the BH and she said she would have wanted Seren to tell her if she was in that position. I don't excuse her behavior, but it strikes me that it was really out of character for her or she would not have come around so quickly on what Seren did. I was thinking of how she reacted afterwards.

[eamherst14051]

Dear Seren ............. thank you thank you thank you ...... TBH, we all need friends like you, it would be such a better place.

[Owl]

I wasn't saying whether I think it's right the friend behaved that way. I was just saying what I think her friend was feeling when she felt able to ask Seren to cover for her. Her pal wasn't thinking about S's feelings about the scenario, she was thinking more about how much Seren loves her, and how Seren has and would always stand by her.

 

You guys see her actions as a sign of disrespect, and I see that, however it also shows how safe and loved she felt with Seren that DESPITE the subject matter, she turned to her. That's how great of a friend she feels Seren to be. That was the only point I was making, I wasn't defending her.

 

I disagree. I had friends put me in the same position in the past. They didn't do so because they felt so wonderfully about our, friendship...they did so because they were so completely focused on how their AFFAIR was making them feel, with no thought to how their actions, expectations, or requests made me feel. They didn't do this because they felt great that I was such a good friend...they did so because they felt I wouldn't want to be caught up in the stress of "telling."

 

It didn't speak positively about our friendship, but spelled out how low their expectations were of my morals.

[GLDheart]

I've given this alot of thought. I've decided that for me the right thing to do is determined by how close I am to the person being cheated on:

 

If I don't know the Betrayed spouse, I'd stay out of it.

 

If I was close to the Betrayed Spouse, I would tell.

 

 

In Seren's words, she was close to both. She did the right thing in my eyes.

[stillafool]

Siren you most certainly did the right thing by telling the husband. What in the hell is with all these women needing soooo much attention? I stopped speaking to a cousin of mine who was cheating on her H while he was in the hospital fighting cancer. I felt like telling him but he was suffering enough with the cancer to add to that pain. I also stopped speaking to a friend I worked with after she told me she was sleeping with her best friends husband. I don't want people with these type of morals in my life because I feel if they can't be trusted by the person they made vows to I have no chance with them as friends. Don't be sad as your ex friend has shown you what she is and what she is made of. "If your right hand offends you, cut it off". Good for you for choosing right over wrong.

[Silly_Girl]

And then afterwards, she said she understood why Seren told the BH and she said she would have wanted Seren to tell her if she was in that position. I don't excuse her behavior, but it strikes me that it was really out of character for her or she would not have come around so quickly on what Seren did. I was thinking of how she reacted afterwards.

 

I know, I know. I do heat you. But it's the 'afterwards' bit that sticks, for me. I don't know how long it was going on for but we hear a lot about how someone 'changes' immediately they're caught out. I don't see her remorse as anything symbolic, it's usual I'd have thought. I guess Seren's best placed to understand how out of character, if at all, her behaviour was, both in respect of the affair and in her requesting Seren's help to keep it going.

[Snowflower]

Seren, I might have missed this in your posts but someone brought up a point earlier that perhaps needs some further thought. Seren, you had mentioned that you had always helped your friend out of messes before because the two of you were so close.

 

Is it possible that your friend wanted you to out the affair to her husband? Perhaps she had grown tired of the affair, didn't know how to end it herself, or was about to be exposed. Since she was too cowardly to do it herself...she played it so that you ended up telling her husband? I mean after all, you had warned her that you were going to tell him if she didn't. So she let you...absolving her of the responsibility of doing it herself.

 

Once her secret was out, she could go into damage-control mode without having to do the actual confession. Of course, this is just speculation on my part...but it seems plausible.

 

What are your thoughts, Seren? Do you think she had you do the dirty work for her?

 

I'm very sorry you found yourself in this position. I can't even imagine how difficult that was.

[SoMovinOn]

I truly mourn the loss of my friend, and yes, a part of me feels I have betrayed her, but I ask this, is it OK to compromise your morals at the expense of enabling another and should it be acceptable to expect another to do so, just so they can 'have fun'? I also wonder at what my responsibility was toward her H, who is also a good friend.

 

Her H only became your friend because he is your friend's H. If there is a pecking order, you're loyalty was first to your friend.

 

I don't like "friends" who put me on the spot like that. If they *begin* the conversation by asking me something like "Can you keep a secret" - I respond with something like "I can, but I won't. If you don't want anyone else to know, then don't tell me!" ... that keeps me out of it.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes they tell me their story first, and they end with "But don't tell anyone." ... which makes me very unhappy and I tell them so.

 

I think if you really needed to be true to your moral compass, you could have pointed it at your friend and had it out with her. You could have made it clear you didn't like the prospect of having to take part in her lie, having to maintain some type of friendship with her H, knowing you were now part of her betrayal.

 

I think that's what I would have done. Had it out with her, told her I could not participate, and let her know if she chose to continue the A, chose not to tell her H ... that I just couldn't hang out with her or her H ... and I would have ended the friendship with both of them.