Why are we here ?

[wuggle]

I was raised a catholic, but when I grew up I was unhappy with the beliefs 'passed down' to me by my parents. I have investigated other religions and found what appear to me to be 'snippets' of wisdom in many religions\world views, but 'common sense' and logic tells me there is no God.

 

I am interested in people's views on the ultimate question "why are we here ?".

 

I don't mind what persuasion\religion you are, I am not interested in being converted to one belief system or the other, just interested in the 'summation' of your belief system.

 

Why are we here ? what does your life mean ? what will happen when you die?

 

Is it to glorify god ?, to procreate the species, to evolve the species\society, is it all 100% meaningless, an accident ?

 

I ask this question in the spirit of discussion and debate, and ask for civility and respect of other people's beliefs, but would also ask that if you have a belief that you explain why you hold this opinion, what led you to this belief ?

 

I am often frustrated by the answer that 'religious' people give to this question, so would ask that they think a little before just giving the 'stock' 'faith' answer. Why should I have 'faith' in a God that I can find no 'evidence' for ?

 

Likewise for the athiests amongst us, why does there seem to be a 'law' or 'pattern' or 'sense' to life, if our only purpose is to pass on our genes ? and if the 'start' of everything was the 'big bang', what created this ?

Edited June 24, 2012 by wuggle

[KathyM]

I'd like to answer that question, but since I always seem to get attacked and ridiculed for my faith whenever I do answer those types of questions, I think I'll pass on that this time.

[M30USA]

I'll give it a whirl...

 

*drumroll*

 

To answer this question we have to understand what happens BEFORE earth/mankind came on the scene and what will happen AFTER, because the truth of the matter is that atheists/evolutionists have it partially correct: we are not the center of the universe.

 

It goes back to when Lucifer, the highest created being of God, lead a rebellion, taking 1/3 of the angels with him. Since he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven into the earth, this was his residence before mankind was created.

 

This brings us to your question: WHY ARE WE HERE? The answer, from what I gather of the Bible, is that God wanted to create man and place him right smack in the middle of Lucifer's home to show that mankind, the lesser and weaker (made out of dirt), can triumph over the greater and stronger angels by obeying the Lord. He wants to show all the angels that their greatness is entirely given by God and, without God, they are nothing. To illustrate this, he literally made a pathetic, lowly creation made from the dust of the earth to show that, with the power of God and obedience to him, we can be more glorious than the highest angel in heaven can with his own power. The Bible says that ultimately humans will inherit Gods kingdom--not angels. The Bible says that "God helps the offspring of Abraham, and not the angels." The Bible says also says that God offers salvation to fallen humans--and not to fallen angels. In fact, hell itself was made to punish Lucifer and the fallen angels ORIGINALLY--and not humans (though humans will go there).

 

So why are we here? To be a show for the angels who are watching that a lowly creature who is less wise and less strong, can be more and do more with obedience to God than angels can without God. The audience is the angels and heavenly hosts--not mankind. This explains why we seem to not be able to make sense out of life. God created the universe for HIS pleasure and he does things for HIS NAME'S SAKE. The whole history of planet earth is one big production so that God can bring glory to his name and, in doing so, bless those who obey him.

[whichwayisup]

I was raised a catholic, but when I grew up I was unhappy with the beliefs 'passed down' to me by my parents. I have investigated other religions and found what appear to me to be 'snippets' of wisdom in many religions\world views, but 'common sense' and logic tells me there is no God.

 

I am interested in people's views on the ultimate question "why are we here ?".

 

I don't mind what persuasion\religion you are, I am not interested in being converted to one belief system or the other, just interested in the 'summation' of your belief system.

 

Why are we here ? what does your life mean ? what will happen when you die?

 

Is it to glorify god ?, to procreate the species, to evolve the species\society, is it all 100% meaningless, an accident ?

 

I ask this question in the spirit of discussion and debate, and ask for civility and respect of other people's beliefs, but would also ask that if you have a belief that you explain why you hold this opinion, what led you to this belief ?

 

I am often frustrated by the answer that 'religious' people give to this question, so would ask that they think a little before just giving the 'stock' 'faith' answer. Why should I have 'faith' in a God that I can find no 'evidence' for ?

 

Likewise for the athiests amongst us, why does there seem to be a 'law' or 'pattern' or 'sense' to life, if our only purpose is to pass on our genes ? and if the 'start' of everything was the 'big bang', what created this ?

 

Wow, I really like your questions and I am going to reply tomorrow.. Need time to think and process this one before answering. I'm not religious but there are parts of your thread that has totally peaked my interest.

[thatone]

as an atheist i have no higher power to make happy. nor do i think anyone or anything really cares whether i'm alive or dead, other than friends and family and girlfriend.

 

that said, as an atheist you have to give your life its own purpose. since we rationally decide that there is no god, no heaven, and no hell we have to find some other purpose. as such, i don't think we atheists tend to make good 'worker bees' for lack of a better word. the thought of working long hours for 30 years at a job only to have a few years of health issue ridden retirement before i'm worm food is honestly not acceptable. i was never a very good employee for that reason. thankfully i wound up self employed later on so i don't have to worry about that anymore, i get to do something i enjoy.

 

as for the rest, really we as atheists have to accept the fact that we're a blip on the universe's radar at best, so we just have to do the best we can at whatever we enjoy, and be ok with mortality. there is no eternity waiting for me, so i'll have to be content with what i can feasibly accomplish.

 

there's a great quote, although i'm not sure of its authenticity, that when a philosopher told alexander centuries ago that there were many worlds, and not just one, he wept. when asked why he said "because i haven't even conquered all of this one yet".

 

that's something that all atheists come to grips with at some point. whatever your grand plans and expectations are, you're going to fail at a lot of them. and when your time is done, no one is going to care that you even lived after a couple of decades.

 

so the logical answer is to pick something that you can do well that makes you happy, make your friends, family, and wife/husband/gf/bf/whatever happy, and be satisfied that you tried your hardest and did your best.

 

have to be somewhat philosophical about it, because the cold hard reality is the universe doesn't need us at all.

[pureinheart]

Why are we here? IMO, to make a decision as to who or what we will serve.

 

Why do I believe the way I do? From the time I can remember I knew who God was, walked with him and called Him friend. I "observed the form, but denied the power thereof". Then, at 27 I was diagnosed with cervical cancer and needed a hysterectomy. I tripped bigtime. My job was extremely stressful and I had a meltdown in the middle of God and everyone. My manager asked what could he do for me..I told him I needed out of my current responsibilities, so he moved me next to this lady in a different dept..she was a Christian. One day she spoke some stuff about me (to me) that noone knew.

 

Now I am in the operating room and they had just administered the knock out stuff, that stuff takes 4 seconds to take effect, in that 4 seconds a nurse came in and said that co-worker (the lady I was placed next to at work) called and said Jesus loves you. I woke up in complete peace and didn't have quite the issues people have after major surgery. It was a 100% cure.

 

So within those 4 seconds I was saved. Now He called me friend.

 

OP- This may sound REALLY bad to some, and I will most likely get called on the carpet with this one, but just know I'm being straight up.

 

I like to talk about God and like to post about God. He's on my mind all of the time. Do I do this to change your mind? Not really. The fact of the matter is I don't care what another person chooses. IMO that person is making a choice for themselves and with much experience in this area, most stick to what they believe because people are going to do what they are going to do.

 

Personally, I would rather debate/converse with other Christians concerning doctrinal issues than to debate with a nonbeliever as to why they should believe. It just feels like a waste of time. Kind of like Republicans and Democrats (here in this country), I'm not going to change them and they won't change me. It's mainly about voicing ones own personal views...It's Gods job to change another IMO

 

What does my life mean? My life no meaning without God. None.

 

What will happen when I die? I will be with the Lord for all of eternity in heaven.

 

Why should you have faith in a "God" you have no evidence for? If you feel there is no evidence, then you have your answer and have made your decision, correct?

Edited June 24, 2012 by pureinheart

[denise_xo]

My take on it is pretty simple: We'll never know why we are here (at least not during this life time). Pragmatically, then, we can just do our best not to wreak havoc on others and the world while we are here.

[DuchessKaye]

Why are we here?

 

We're here to just past through.

This world isn't our home.

 

Sometimes I do wonder why do they have to give me a life and put me on this planet without my permission and then one day they're gonna take my life back and will take me out away from here without my permission again...

That's just unfair me thinks.

[wuggle]

Thank you all for your responses. I am not going to respond to them all as I would be here forever, but would like to pick out a few bits:-

 

...Purpose, for us at least, is subjective

 

If purpose is subjective then it stands that the meaning of people's lives is decided by themselves and can and often is at odds with others. If the purpose of one persons life is to kill all fish and another is to save all the fish (silly example just to illustrate the point) this seems wasteful at an evolutionary level and undecisive and possibly cruel if you believe in a higher power. Is there in your opinion no 'objective' purpose ?

 

I'd like to answer that question, but since I always seem to get attacked and ridiculed for my faith whenever I do answer those types of questions, I think I'll pass on that this time.

 

I am sorry for that. I know from experience here that these debates can get quite passionate, with believers beliving and non believers asking for proof. I would like to hear your views but would ask if you do respond that you let us know 'why' you think that way, what reasoning you did to arrive at these beliefs. Understand perfectly if you don't though.

 

I'll give it a whirl...

 

Thanks for your explanation. Having read it, it reminds me of my childhood. I was raised a catholic, and went to a catholic school, where the bible was taught regularly. As a child I sort of trusted by elders and betters (that is what children do) but as soon as I started to think for myslef I noticed the contradictions between the science and logic I was being taught and the religion.

 

When challenged on these religious beliefs I was never given a satisfactory answer. I really struggle with the whole story you have put forward. The thought of an omnipotent\devine being creating us just to show the angels who he also created a lesson seems nonsensical. If god could do anything why would he create 2 sets of imperfect beings and have them compete.

 

I am interested in your statement that we are in lucifers home, do you mean by this that the earth is actually hell ?

 

You often say, "the bible says" but with respect this is part of the problem I have with most religions. I am not interested in what this 'says' It seems like an excuse not to think for yourself just to say "well the bible says" You could equally argue that any of the other religious texts "say". Why do you believe in god\satan, surely it can't just be bacause "the bible says"

 

KathyM: This is not a dig, but a very general question (and it's one I ask myself all the time): if you're always getting ridiculed, have you even considered the possibility that at least some of your beliefs might be ridiculous?

 

I know for a fact that earlier in my life I did believe things that I now consider to be wrong.

 

1) I am here to praise, honor, and yes glorify God.

 

Again, with respect, I struggle with this. If god is omnipotent and allmighty, why does he need the adoration of one of his creations. If god is perfect why does he make us suffer then force us to admire him\her.

 

2) My life means that I should leave the world (at least those I touch) better than when I arrived. I feel as if I am an instrument to put God into action.

 

Can 'feel' a grain of truth in the first part of this , but again why does this have to have anything to do with god, surely if they are god they can do all this themselves.

 

..that said, as an atheist you have to give your life its own purpose.

 

Again, if there is no objective meaning and everything is subjective, it seems counterproductive (if non believer) and nonsensical if a believer ?

 

as for the rest, really we as atheists have to accept the fact that we're a blip on the universe's radar at best, so we just have to do the best we can at whatever we enjoy, and be ok with mortality. there is no eternity waiting for me, so i'll have to be content with what i can feasibly accomplish.

 

Whilst I can accept there being no meaning to life and it is purely random, if this is true then It doesn't make any difference what I do. Why should I try to accomplish anything positive ? surely there would be just as much justification to do as much 'negative' stuff whilst I am here ? That could really justify absolutely anything ?

 

so the logical answer is to pick something that you can do well that makes you happy, make your friends, family, and wife/husband/gf/bf/whatever happy, and be satisfied that you tried your hardest and did your best.

 

If the 'reason' is just to be happy then again that could be used to justify any action. In theory then my reason for living might be to steal lots of money from banks to give to others because I feel that they need it more ? Can the reason for life be to simply be happy ?

 

IMO, to make a decision...

 

I have often heard the line of reasoning that says we are here to decide for ourselves, to use freewill etc. I struggle with this as if god exists why would he want us to decide, rightly or wrongly. Surely the decisions of a species he created are irrelevant, unless he created us in an attempt to become more, ie evolve. But again, why didn't he just make us perfect in the first place?

 

So within those 4 seconds I was saved. Now He called me friend.

 

I understand that at times of crisis, people will question and call out for answers, and I do not mean to belittle whatever reason you have found, especially at those times. But I struggle with this, why does this tell you there is a god ? didn't god make you and make you ill as well ? surely the real saviour there would have been the surgeons, not god ?

 

...I'm not going to change them and they won't change me. It's mainly about voicing ones own personal views...It's Gods job to change another IMO

 

In some ways I would love to have my opinions changed. I would love for someone to give me a line of reasoning that makes sense to justify some higher power, but all the answers I have received so far don't stack up. I was, for whatever purpose, given an inquiring mind, whenever I analyse the reasons people give, they all seem to contain too many flaws.

 

 

My take on it is pretty simple: We'll never know why we are here (at least not during this life time). Pragmatically, then, we can just do our best not to wreak havoc on others and the world while we are here.

 

But why NOT wreak havoc ? seems just as sensible to destroy things ? maybe that is my purpose. Until I know what it is shouldn't I do nothing at all in case I am doing the wrong thing ?

 

p.s sorry for the spelling.

Edited June 24, 2012 by wuggle
my wife hates my spelling\grammer mistakes.(sic)

[M30USA]

Wuggle,

 

The earth is currently under the authority of Satan. Most Christians don't like to acknowledge this. Satan is referred to as the "prince of this world". When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he took Jesus to a mountaintop and pointed out to all the nations of the world, asked Jesus to bow down and worship him, and as a result would give Jesus authority over all the nations.

 

And he [satan] said to him [Jesus], "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. (Luke 4:6)

 

God is the one who has "given" the earth to Satan. This is his homeland. And it will remain his until the second coming of Christ, at which point it will be said:

 

"The kingdoms of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

 

Until then Satan is full of rage because, aside from knowing that his time is short, he is being shoved out of his home. It's a process thousands of years in the making, but he is being shoved out of his home and he is not happy about it.

[denise_xo]

But why NOT wreak havoc ? seems just as sensible to destroy things ? maybe that is my purpose. Until I know what it is shouldn't I do nothing at all in case I am doing the wrong thing ?

 

Well, we ARE wreaking havoc. But my sense (which I base on empirical observation rather than a particular philosophy) is that we are born with moral agency, as well as with the potential to do harm. That is our predicament. It is what it is, whether we know the purpose behind it or now.

 

I think you can go around and around and around and around in circles talking about purpose. The short cut is, we don't know what it is, or whether there even is one. We can have ideas about what it is, but we don't know. So, I try to focus on living my life in a way that feels 'right'. Obviously, there's no full objective truth to what is right, either. Again, that's just the nature of the human predicament. But as you said upthread, there is quite a lot of similarities across cultures and religions about some basic moral values that appear to be pan-human. That's one place to start. I think our capacity for moral agency is innate, though. It doesn't depend on a particular religion.

[wuggle]

...The earth is currently under the authority of Satan.....

 

But where is the evidence for any of the things you say. Whilst you may be happy to simply 'believe' the words that are in the bible (and really that is fine if that is what you want to do), this to me seems like a cop out.

 

If god created me, then he gave me my brain, it would be a sin not to use it, don't you agree ?, but when I do everything tells me he\she doesn't exist.

 

Rather than quote words from this particular religous book, I suppose I would be more interested in knowing WHY you believe these words ? what life experience, process of intellectual thought, insight etc have led you to accept these words as truth ? or are you just 'accepting' the beleifs that have been 'handed down' to you ?

 

 

Well, we ARE wreaking havoc. But my sense (which I base on empirical observation rather than a particular philosophy) is that we are born with moral agency

 

I can sort of agree that we do 'seem' to have an inbuilt 'moral' compass. But then others argue that this is a inate mechanism to help promote the existence of our genetic code, we are prepared to sacrifice ourselves more for people who share our genetic material that not, more for a son\daughter than a stranger, more for a fellow human than a mouse.

 

Obviously, there's no full objective truth to what is right, either.

 

This confuses me. If there is no objective right and wrong, how do I know that I am not doing what I was put here for my NOT murdering and stealing.

 

The lack of an objective reason for existence doesn't seem to make any more sense to me than a belief in an all powerful god.

 

If there is no objective reason and all is subjective then do you beleive there is no point at all in life ? that it is just some chemical accident ?

[wuggle]

For humans to have an objective purpose, to me, assumes that a similar process resulted in us as the end result.

 

Do you believe that humans were created by 'something' 'better' than humans ? or are we simply an accident ?

 

Until then, the closest thing we will have to a truly objective (ie: an inherent property of humans that is not subject to opinion) purpose is to follow our biological imperative to preserve ourselves and our genes.

 

But if the sole objective of human life is to protect our genes then why don't you or I simply go out steal as much money as we can, rape and pillage and pass this money on to our multiple offsprings.

[denise_xo]

This confuses me. If there is no objective right and wrong, how do I know that I am not doing what I was put here for my NOT murdering and stealing.

 

The lack of an objective reason for existence doesn't seem to make any more sense to me than a belief in an all powerful god.

 

If there is no objective reason and all is subjective then do you beleive there is no point at all in life ? that it is just some chemical accident ?

 

I'm not saying that all is subjective. I'm not a complete relativist, at all. And I'm certainly not saying that there is a lack of objective reason to existence. I am just saying that it is not within our human capacity to know what it is, or whether there is one. There might be an over arching purpose to life, and there might not be. I don't know. And I accept the fact that I probably won't reach that knowledge in my lifetime.

 

About no objective right or wrong - my point was just that there are few absolutes that can be pushed to the extreme. In some cases, it might be right to kill in self defence, thus nuancing the command that you should not take other people's lives. And so on.

[M30USA]

But where is the evidence for any of the things you say. Whilst you may be happy to simply 'believe' the words that are in the bible (and really that is fine if that is what you want to do), this to me seems like a cop out.

 

If god created me, then he gave me my brain, it would be a sin not to use it, don't you agree ?, but when I do everything tells me he\she doesn't exist.

 

Rather than quote words from this particular religous book, I suppose I would be more interested in knowing WHY you believe these words ? what life experience, process of intellectual thought, insight etc have led you to accept these words as truth ? or are you just 'accepting' the beleifs that have been 'handed down' to you ?

 

 

 

 

I can sort of agree that we do 'seem' to have an inbuilt 'moral' compass. But then others argue that this is a inate mechanism to help promote the existence of our genetic code, we are prepared to sacrifice ourselves more for people who share our genetic material that not, more for a son\daughter than a stranger, more for a fellow human than a mouse.

 

 

 

This confuses me. If there is no objective right and wrong, how do I know that I am not doing what I was put here for my NOT murdering and stealing.

 

The lack of an objective reason for existence doesn't seem to make any more sense to me than a belief in an all powerful god.

 

If there is no objective reason and all is subjective then do you beleive there is no point at all in life ? that it is just some chemical accident ?

 

Are you asking me for evidence of Satan's existence? Or are you asking for evidence of his authority over the earth?

 

The reason you might not see his existence and authority is because, as is the case with many people, you might not have a proper understanding of who Satan is. Most people have this idea of a red beast with horns, holding a trident. They think he is savage and does nothing but kill and destroy.

 

The biblical Satan couldn't be farther from the truth. He was created the highest angel (he's actually a cherub). We are told that he is the wisest of all God's creation--even wiser than Michael, the highest holy angel. We are also told that his appearance is beautiful and glorious. But it's for these very reasons why he rebelled and became prideful. He thought he could do better than God and apparently 1/3 of the angels agreed with him.

 

Satan doesn't need to kill and destroy to achieve his end. He would just as gladly have complete world peace (which the antichrist will) as long as it means we reject the true God and follow him. Additionally, we don't even need to know he exists. He would just as gladly have us follow his lower minions (demons) and his human followers (world leaders, etc) because ultimately if you follow his purpose you follow him. This is why going by what you see is deceptive. You might look around, especially in American, and think, "The world ain't such a bad place." This might make you think Satan is a myth. But look around you. Look at how the name of Jesus is so controversial, rejected, and even misused by self-professed Christians. Look how much opposition there is to the Word of God, even among the Church! That is the evidence of Satan's work.

[pureinheart]

I'll give it a whirl...

 

*drumroll*

 

To answer this question we have to understand what happens BEFORE earth/mankind came on the scene and what will happen AFTER, because the truth of the matter is that atheists/evolutionists have it partially correct: we are not the center of the universe.

 

It goes back to when Lucifer, the highest created being of God, lead a rebellion, taking 1/3 of the angels with him. Since he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven into the earth, this was his residence before mankind was created.

 

This brings us to your question: WHY ARE WE HERE? The answer, from what I gather of the Bible, is that God wanted to create man and place him right smack in the middle of Lucifer's home to show that mankind, the lesser and weaker (made out of dirt), can triumph over the greater and stronger angels by obeying the Lord. He wants to show all the angels that their greatness is entirely given by God and, without God, they are nothing. To illustrate this, he literally made a pathetic, lowly creation made from the dust of the earth to show that, with the power of God and obedience to him, we can be more glorious than the highest angel in heaven can with his own power. The Bible says that ultimately humans will inherit Gods kingdom--not angels. The Bible says that "God helps the offspring of Abraham, and not the angels." The Bible says also says that God offers salvation to fallen humans--and not to fallen angels. In fact, hell itself was made to punish Lucifer and the fallen angels ORIGINALLY--and not humans (though humans will go there).

 

So why are we here? To be a show for the angels who are watching that a lowly creature who is less wise and less strong, can be more and do more with obedience to God than angels can without God. The audience is the angels and heavenly hosts--not mankind. This explains why we seem to not be able to make sense out of life. God created the universe for HIS pleasure and he does things for HIS NAME'S SAKE. The whole history of planet earth is one big production so that God can bring glory to his name and, in doing so, bless those who obey him.

 

This is really good M30...this is the real "in the beginning" ..lol

[pureinheart]

 

 

I have often heard the line of reasoning that says we are here to decide for ourselves, to use freewill etc. I struggle with this as if god exists why would he want us to decide, rightly or wrongly. Surely the decisions of a species he created are irrelevant, unless he created us in an attempt to become more, ie evolve. But again, why didn't he just make us perfect in the first place?

 

 

 

Well, in your personal life would you want a bunch of people who were just "yes" people, programmed to be with you, not because they chose it.

 

 

 

I understand that at times of crisis, people will question and call out for answers, and I do not mean to belittle whatever reason you have found, especially at those times. But I struggle with this, why does this tell you there is a god ? didn't god make you and make you ill as well ? surely the real saviour there would have been the surgeons, not god ?

 

For me, it was the timing of everything, a whole lifes worth of seeking. It was partly the crisis that brought me to the end of myself. IMO nothing happens to any of us without Gods knowledge, also based on His Word, He knocks on the doors of our hearts and it's our choice if we choose to open it. Wuggle, it's many things that take place at once for some, a chain of events coupled with a knowing.

 

Did God make me sick? He allowed it, although I would like to go back to the fall (Adam and Eve), and I'm not blaming them. God provided a perfect environment and told them there is ONE tree and don't touch it...with the help of Satan they got the "knowledge" of good and evil, and personally I think Satan just gives us that added "encouragement" to do what we want to do anyway. Now, because of mans choices we have an earth with sickness and disease. Basically cause and effect.

 

No, I don't believe the surgeons were my savior per se, although I do believe they were gifted because of God whether they are believers or not. This is why I can gain a lot of useful stuff from other faiths (or non faiths) that help me in my own walk.

 

 

 

In some ways I would love to have my opinions changed. I would love for someone to give me a line of reasoning that makes sense to justify some higher power, but all the answers I have received so far don't stack up. I was, for whatever purpose, given an inquiring mind, whenever I analyse the reasons people give, they all seem to contain too many flaws.

 

This is why beliefs, or nonbeliefs is a personal choice. I have found the facts I need which is the supernatural, the Bible, and the workings of God, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe there are scientific findings that support my beliefs. When I see creation, I see God. And if God were to give mankind all of the answers (which IMO I think He has, but am speaking to nonbelievers) there would be no need for faith or no faith for that matter.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a very good thread BTW, my thanks to OP for keeping it civil:)

[pureinheart]

Are you asking me for evidence of Satan's existence? Or are you asking for evidence of his authority over the earth?

 

The reason you might not see his existence and authority is because, as is the case with many people, you might not have a proper understanding of who Satan is. Most people have this idea of a red beast with horns, holding a trident. They think he is savage and does nothing but kill and destroy.

 

The biblical Satan couldn't be farther from the truth. He was created the highest angel (he's actually a cherub). We are told that he is the wisest of all God's creation--even wiser than Michael, the highest holy angel. We are also told that his appearance is beautiful and glorious. But it's for these very reasons why he rebelled and became prideful. He thought he could do better than God and apparently 1/3 of the angels agreed with him.

 

Satan doesn't need to kill and destroy to achieve his end. He would just as gladly have complete world peace (which the antichrist will) as long as it means we reject the true God and follow him. Additionally, we don't even need to know he exists. He would just as gladly have us follow his lower minions (demons) and his human followers (world leaders, etc) because ultimately if you follow his purpose you follow him. This is why going by what you see is deceptive. You might look around, especially in American, and think, "The world ain't such a bad place." This might make you think Satan is a myth. But look around you. Look at how the name of Jesus is so controversial, rejected, and even misused by self-professed Christians. Look how much opposition there is to the Word of God, even among the Church! That is the evidence of Satan's work.

 

 

I can honestly see why most nonbelievers take issue with the "church". I have been beaten up in churches so bad it isn't even funny...BUT it took coming to a knowledge not to look to "man" for the answers, but to go to God. Many times the Apostles had to go to the first churches to settle some very serious disputes...and why? Man. Is. Fallible. When not completely directed by the Holy Spirit disaster seems to flow, and I have been that "disaster" many times:o

 

That's why Wuggle, most likely you won't get the answers you seek from man, and the direction I see you going in or in is "self" of which you will have to reconcile that with you (self).

[wuggle]

..We are told that he is the wisest of all God's creation

 

I was hoping for some evidence, that would be testable or verifiable, the sort of evidence that my senses could appreciate or my logical mind could accept, but you just seem to be telling me more about your beliefs in satan. Can you provide any, concrete, testable, verifyable proof of his, or gods existence. For every other aspect of life, faith in an unprobable is not enough.

 

I am curious though that you describe satan as the wisest of gods creatures, yet explain that he turned against god and became his polar opposite.

 

I am presuming that it is not possible for you to provide the sort of evidence that would satisfy me, so instead would repeat my earlier request for information about what makes you believe, not just recite the stories but explain WHY you belive them ?

[wuggle]

That's why Wuggle, most likely you won't get the answers you seek from man, and the direction I see you going in or in is "self" of which you will have to reconcile that with you (self).

 

But this is a problem to me. I am an intelligent guy, my brain, no matter how comforting it would be, cannot ignore the inconsistencies in the god hypothesis. I can find no evidence at all for his existence.

 

If I can't get an answer from god or man and have to rely on myself, that would imply that there is, as queried earlier, no objective reality and all my existence is subjective, and all the meaning of life to be created by myself.

 

If there is no objective reality, then everything I do is meaningless, I could decide to be 'bad' or 'good' and it would make no difference either way.

 

but that feels wrong. It does 'feel' as if life has some meaning. But what is it ?

[denise_xo]

denise_xo: I notice you seemingly using objective/subjective and absolute/relative interchangeably. Do you know that they refer to different concepts?

 

Yes, I'm fully aware of that.

[M30USA]

I was hoping for some evidence, that would be testable or verifiable, the sort of evidence that my senses could appreciate or my logical mind could accept, but you just seem to be telling me more about your beliefs in satan. Can you provide any, concrete, testable, verifyable proof of his, or gods existence. For every other aspect of life, faith in an unprobable is not enough.

 

I am curious though that you describe satan as the wisest of gods creatures, yet explain that he turned against god and became his polar opposite.

 

I am presuming that it is not possible for you to provide the sort of evidence that would satisfy me, so instead would repeat my earlier request for information about what makes you believe, not just recite the stories but explain WHY you belive them ?

 

Wuggle, I'd like to correct one small point...

 

Satan is not God's "polar opposite". This is one way in which Christianity differs from every religion or philosophy that I'm aware of. If God wanted to rid the world of Satan, he would only need to speak it into being--as he spoke the universe into being. This leaves us with the fact that God uses Satan to achieve his purpose. In his wisdom he sees it appropriate to use Satan with all his deception and chaos. But Satan is not his opposite.

[M30USA]

I was hoping for some evidence, that would be testable or verifiable, the sort of evidence that my senses could appreciate or my logical mind could accept

 

R = 4/x/23b-46+8/6k/[g-k]

 

(joking)

 

If I provided you with evidence, would you believe it? Or would you only consider certain TYPES of evidence? I ask this because I suggest to you that angelic activity is most definitely present on earth and even proveable--at least supportable with evidence. Where? I believe in what we call the UFO phenomenon. I know this sounds hilarious, but you should seriously look into it. To start out with, don't even take it from a religious/spiritual standpoint, but merely a scientific one. Read the new book called "UFOs: Pilots, Generals, and Government Officials Go On The Record" by journalist Leslie Kean. Once it's been established that the UFO phenomenon is real and not manmade or explainable by natural phenomenon, you can begin to explore other explanations. I have concluded that UFOs operate in identical fashion to the angels of the Bible for NUMEROUS REASONS that I would need an hour to even scrape the surface of. But this might get you started. If you want "proof", you might need to start looking in places you least expect.

[wuggle]

Wuggle, I'd like to correct one small point...

 

Satan is not God's "polar opposite". This is one way in which Christianity differs from every religion or philosophy that I'm aware of. If God wanted to rid the world of Satan, he would only need to speak it into being--as he spoke the universe into being. This leaves us with the fact that God uses Satan to achieve his purpose. In his wisdom he sees it appropriate to use Satan with all his deception and chaos. But Satan is not his opposite.

 

Ok, but WHY do you believe this stuff ? rather than just reciting the dogma, can you please explain why you believe as you do. Is this the religion you were brought up with or have you arrived at these beliefs through your own inquisitions ?

[wuggle]

If I provided you with evidence, would you believe it?

 

If it made sense and was testable\verifiyable then yes.