What an eye opener!

[kle]

Oh my gosh, this forum literally helped save my life! I posted on here in January of 2009:

 

"Yes, I see the connection between my past abuse and personality disorder type people. However, I have truly worked through my past issues with extensive therapy and am a very strong person. I have been diagnosed with Anxiety (this runs in my family), and it makes it hard for me to date someone with these emotional issues because I truly have a hard time being patient and tolerating abnormal behavior. It makes me anxious. My daughter has such a grand spirit. I won't bring a man into her life to compromise that, and that is the one thing I put the most thought into regarding my relationship. I have not brought him into my daughter's life. I've been very smart about that. He is wonderful with kids, but I do not want her getting attached to someone who may never really be in my life. Blah, blah, blah."

 

Well, blah blah nothing! I have been to hell and back since that post, and a few months ago when I was finally healing myself through therapy, I remembered I had written on this forum a few years ago, so I logged on to see what I was writing then. WOW! Had I listened to all the wonderful advice I had gotten back then, I could have saved myself so much heartache! I let this man literally turn my world inside out and upside down... over and over!

 

I don't even know where to start. The emotional outbursts, his crying, calling and texting all the time morphed into lying, cheating, and POOF... vanishing only to return weeks later. Over and over again. Wanting to have a baby with me, then getting pregnant, moving into a house, and then deciding he didn't want the baby or to move in. And that's not even where it ended! I got weaker, and weaker and weaker with each crazy incident! It triggered my repressed memories of early childhood sexual abuse to start surfacing, and I spent the better part of the last 2 years in therapy doing EMDR, somatic experiencing, relaxation therapy, psychotherapy, you name it! Albeit not the most fun thing I have ever done, it's been the most healing thing I have ever done for myself. If nothing else, I feel confident that I will never choose another partner like this EVER AGAIN! A relationship that triggers your post traumatic stress disorder, after years and years of healthy living, and triggers horrid abuse memories to start creeping back up, it's CLEARLY NOT A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP!!!

 

I sounded so much stronger at the start of it all... why I didn't just quite there! But hey, at least now I have a little insurance from all that therapy that I will never go back to someone who is mentally unwell and uninterested in improving themselves. If they prefer to break you down, bit by bit, until you no longer even recognize yourself, that's just as bad as any other type of abuse I've had to deal with.

 

If you are with someone who suffers from personality disorders, like borderline, please think long and hard about what you are prepared to loose to keep this relationship together. If you are with personality disordered person who is committed to getting better, that is a whole different issue entirely and I see nothing wrong with that. But make sure you aren't with them due to some unresolved abuse you haven't dealt with from your childhood, unless you are fully prepared to have the lid ripped right off your childhood wounds. This is no easy path to go down. I lost a baby, I lost my home, my business is now going under, I have physical aches I never had before, and this guy moved into an apartment that overlooks my current home. We are moving in 3 weeks, and I will never have to deal with the ashes of this mess again after that.

 

Whew, I had no idea what I was embarking on when I went down the unknown road with an untreated borderline. Many times it felt like a road that went straight to hell.

 

I can smile again, I've started getting out of isolation, I'm healing a little bit more each and every day. Tell me, what kind of person dates a girl he knows was abused almost her entire childhood, and uses that to manipulate her and abuse her even more? That's not a real man, not by a long shot. Anyone who won't take full responsibility for their actions, like committing to treatment, does not give a rats @ss about your feelings, let alone love you like he has so convincingly claimed he does. Toward the end when you hear the word love you will often confuse it for hate.

 

I am done. I can say with it with absolute certainty and conviction now. And damn, does that feel good!

 

Take very good care of yourselves, because nobody is more important than YOU.

[Downtown]

Kle, I'm glad to hear that you've finally broken free from that toxic relationship. Please take great care that you not run right into the arms of another man just like him. I mention this because caregivers like you and me are very attracted to people who desperately need us. There are tens of millions of folks who are getting caught in toxic relationships for that same reason, i.e., because their desire to be needed (for what they can do) far exceeds their desire to be loved (for the people they already are).

 

Like you, Rebel and I had lengthy relationships with BPDers. If you would like to read about it, please see http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735. Take care, Kle.

[kle]

Downtown, thank you so much. You clearly have great insight into BPD. And, I actually loved your comment "My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way to that shocking truth." I can identify very well with that statement. Where I have been lacking is not insight into my self, because I have come a very long ways with that. I don't actually have codependency, I discussed that at great length in my therapy. My therapist said I was an extremely complex case, not because I was so messed up, but because my past had so many different types of traumas, but yet I did have a father who always kept me safe, respected my boundaries, etc. And in truth, I don't like "saving" people. I think people can only save themselves. My situation was very isolated to my mother and to him. He was so much like her that he became an object of transference for her. I was determined, come hell or high water, to make him behave like a normal person. It always drove me mad that my mom was so unstable emotionally. I thank God my dad had his act together because he always made me see what was "normal" and what was not. I have never really felt undeserving of love or anything, but as this relationship progressed, I was sinking further and further back into that 11 year old girl that had just been raped living with my insane mother. So, I was literally angry at him all the time. Why couldn't he just be normal? Why couldn't he just do what he says he's going to do? Plus, he had me so royally confused with what was actually going on. First he said the doctor said he had antisocial personality disorder, then shortly after that it was bipolar II, depression was always in the mix, and finally I stumbled onto BPD on my own! And not only did I get the answers to what his issues were, but simultaneously got the answers for what was wrong with my mother, and I have actually gotten closure to both relationships. When we did EMDR therapy, It was sooooo surreal! I went back to when I was 11, and I was in the back seat of a car crying and so scared, and my adult self walked over to the car, picked her up and carried her home where my daughter and I tucked her into bed and made her feel safe. I have never cried so hard in my life, but my inner child has been far less of a pain since then.

 

I'm not sure how great of an enabler I was for him these last 2 years, probably a poor choice on his part. When he would say he loved me, I rarely ever said it back. I wasn't affectionate anymore, and I was terribly frustrated with him all the time. Not to say I was horrible or mean, but I was seeing him in a much different light. Now, I'm working on getting insight into BPD. Primarily because my mother is losing her mind. Literally. They thought it was alzheimer's, but it's not, it's mental. She has been an emotional wreck for years, and I think she has dissociated so many times that she's just about permanently dissociated. And now I really feel bad for these people, but then the tough girl side of me says they need to get help, but looking back at my mother, so was so disconnected from reality sometimes, that I don't think she could have ever committed herself to years of therapy. She had no support system really. My dad is a tough love kind of guy, and then I look at my ex, and he keeps everyone at arm's length. So, he virtually has no support system either. So, how do they ever get help if nobody actually knows they have this disorder, and who supports them? Or are these always the ones that just fall through the cracks?

[kle]

I have been thinking about this and this kind of made me laugh. So, during the middle of the relationship, i reverted back to being this damaged 11 year old girl, dating a man with the emotional maturity of a 5 year old who was looking to me to be the care giver. Now that's just a disaster is it not? Wow.

[Downtown]

So, how do they ever get help if nobody actually knows they have this disorder, and who supports them? Or are these always the ones that just fall through the cracks?

Kle, my understanding is that the low functioning BPDers are in such terrible pain that they tend to seek therapy and work on it to some extent. I therefore suspect that most of the statistics reporting marked improvement in a portion of BPDers -- usually starting in the mid-forties -- consists of those folks.

 

The vast majority of BPDers, however, are high functioning. These are the ones that you and I tend to be most familiar with because we won't date the LF BPDers, much less marry them. Because the HF BPDers are very functional outside the home (i.e., away from loved ones), and because they lack self awareness, it is rare for one of them to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. And, of course, because they are unable to trust others, they have great difficulty bonding with a therapist and believing what he says.

 

As to your mother, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, perhaps she has slipped from being HF to LF. When that occurs, the BPDer usually switches from acting out to acting in, i.e., turning her enormous anger inward on herself -- which might be easier on your dad but is far more self destructive -- not a good thing for her emotional health. A LF BPDer -- like any of us -- can get so sick that she slips into psychosis, which normally is not seen in BPDers. That is, BPDers have a distorted view of other peoples' intentions and motivations but they see physical reality just fine. They therefore typically are not "crazy" unless something else is going on.

 

Another possibility is that, in addition to the BPD, she has strong aspects of another disorder that could explain the craziness. Most folks having one full blown disorder also have one or two others also.

[kle]

Downtown - do you know if the secondary disorder always fall within the same group? Cluster B personality disorders?

 

Also, I have to tell you, there is a part of me that is now feeling very sorry for my ex. I said some pretty awful things on my way out the door, and if he already feels terrible about himself, I am quite sure that did not help matters. Or, do they get over it rather quickly anyway?

 

Sorry for all the questions!

[Downtown]

Does the secondary disorder always fall within the same group? Cluster B personality disorders?

In psychiatry, I doubt if anything "always" happens. But the answer, for the most part, is "yes" -- in the sense that most people having one personality disorder (PD) also have one or two others. Significantly, this does NOT mean they have two or three diseases. PDs are not separate diseases. Indeed, there is no proof that any of the PDs are caused by a disease.

 

Hence, although the term "disorder" refers to a "disease" in every field of the medical sciences, this is not true in psychiatry when referring to PDs. Instead, the term (for PDs) only means "syndrome," i.e., a pattern of dysfunctional behavioral symptoms (aka "traits"). Further, there is great disagreement as to how these various groups of symptoms should be organized. Since 1980, there have been 10 PDs in the diagnostic manual. This next May, however, the new diagnostic manual will consolidate them down to only six PD categories.

 

Moreover, a PD typically is accompanied by a clinical disorder (i.e., Cluster A disorder) such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, or adult ADHD. Because those clincial disorders are often caused by body chemistry problems, they are generally regarded as true diseases and treated with medication (which doesn't make a dent in PDs).

I said some pretty awful things on my way out the door, and if he already feels terrible about himself ...Do they get over it rather quickly anyway?

Well, let's put it this way. If your H has strong BPD traits, his emotional development is frozen at about age four -- at which age he likely experienced abuse or abandonment (or felt that way). At issue, then, is whether it is okay to be verbally abusive to a four year old -- just because he has so little control over his emotions that his feelings will change tomorrow? Of course not. BPDers have been suffering since childhood with their issues. We should not do anything that unnecessarily adds to that human suffering.

 

This does not imply, however, that you should be coddling him or walking on eggshells to avoid triggering his anger. That sort of "enabling" behavior is harmful to him because it destroys his only opportunity to have to confront his issues and learn how to grow up. It therefore is important that you allow him to suffer the logical consequences of his own bad behavior. If the logical consequence is that you leave the house for a few hours (or days, or forever), then so be it.

 

You should establish strong personal boundaries and enforce them, just as you would with any four year old. Instead of always being his "soothing object" and parent figure, you should allow him to have the incentive to learn how to do self soothing -- a skill the rest of us learned in childhood.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Downtown

[kle]

Thanks, that all makes perfect sense. After learning more about BPD, I felt pretty awful about a couple comments I said in anger, such as "you truly are not a good person." I wish I could apologize for saying that, but then I'm afraid it would open up an entire new can of worms. Do apologizing do anything for them anyway?

 

I'm kind of at a point where I feel like it's a new beginning for me. I'm planning to take my GMAT and start taking graduate classes. My daughter and I are moving, and I really want to work in the mental health field. I'm completely enamored with it all. I have read just about every book in the psychology and self-help sections at Barnes & Noble. I never get bored with any of it.

 

I do think this man came into my life for a reason. I never would have done any of the therapy I did these past 2 years if I hadn't, and I never would have figured out what my real passion is if I hadn't. I also never would have fully discovered what my mother was suffering from if I hadn't. I never used to believe that things happen for a reason, but now I'm not so sure.

[Downtown]

I wish I could apologize for saying that, but then I'm afraid it would open up an entire new can of worms. Do apologizing do anything for them anyway?

Kle, that's like asking whether BPDers put their pants on one leg at a time, whether they cry when sad, or whether they enjoy ice cream. My point above was that BPDers have the same set of basic human feelings that all of us have. They differ from us only in degree, not in kind.

 

As to whether you should go back and apologize, I really doubt it. For one thing, he likely was far more verbally abusive to you. For another, it likely will not affect how he feels about you next week. If your exBF has strong BPD traits, it is impossible to build up a store of good will that you could ever draw upon in the future.

 

Trying to do so is as futile as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It will be washed aside by the next emotional tide sweeping through his mind. A BPDer's feelings are often so intense that whatever he is feeling that moment is his reality. BPDers are not very skilled at intellectually challenging those intense feelings. Instead, they tend to accept them as accurately reflecting reality.

[CopingGal]

If you read any of my posts, esp. in here and coping, you will know that I talk about personality disorder traits a lot. The disorders in Cluster B overlap, esp. Antisocial Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissitic Personality Disorder.

 

My ex has very strong traits of Antisocial PD and Narcissitc PD. He was absolutely disgraceful to me. I remember after he had confessed to all the lying, the cheated, the manipulations, the tricks he played on me and everything else, he then tried to force the woman he cheated with on me. He wouldn't let me heal. I kept telling him to leave me alone. It's like after all of the lying, once he came clean, he became very agressive towards me even though I was devastated. The couple's therapist said he tried to kill me inside and that his prognosis was dismal.

 

When he called me on Thanksgiving to wish me a Happy Thanksgiving after all the horrific things he did to me, like nothing ever happened, it was at that point that I truly knew he was very, very sick.