Forgiveness

[tojaz]

I saw that too! It makes me really wonder. Either he doesnt realize that or he doesnt really want a divorce. Funny thing was two weeks in that text he sent me he had also said he told the person he made the appt with this was preceeding a divorce filing.

 

He definately had every chance to tell lawyer today. Maybe when we go back with payment hell mention it. See why Im so confused

 

I understand, and it sounds like he may be a little confused as well and makes me wonder why they would go ahead with it if they knew divorce was coming.

[AllieKat]

Well as of yet we havent offically done anything we have to pay the fee first but still H should of asked or mentioned it. The lawyer is a well know bankruptcy lawyer he asked if we had any questions but he never asked us if we were divorcing either, I guess that wouldnt normally be a question to ask to married people. I certainly wasnt bringing it up.

 

Then again he could always come up before we pay and who knows maybe H will bring it up. I guess I still have mo more clarity

[tojaz]

Sorry, I had really hoped that today would part some of the clouds for you Allie. Wish I had something else for you right now. I'll keep thinking.

 

TOJAZ

[AllieKat]

Its ok! Its not over till its over!!!

[trippi1432]

Allie - Please do broach the bankruptcy AND the fact that a Chapter 13 was decided on with your lawyer consult on Wednesday. More importantly, don't rock the boat between now and the consult....do ensure that you know what all your assets are however.

 

I found this online...[in divorce before bankruptcy] Most of the time, one party agrees to pay for the marital debts. Since the agreement acts as a judgment, that debt cannot be eliminated in bankruptcy. So had your husband agreed to pay these bills then subsequently filed for bankruptcy, he would not be able to eliminate that debt in his bankruptcy. However, by filing prior to a divorce, he might be able to eliminate his obligation to pay. He then must address this issue during the divorce and determine whether he will accept liability on debt that he likely will eliminate in bankruptcy. <--- Not sure how that would work, but would be a good question to ask in your consult.

 

I find it interesting that the attorney chose the Chapter 13 since that is a structured debt settlement based on joint income and a 36 month commitment. My bets are that the attorney has no clue about an impending divorce or he probably would not have taken on the bankruptcy case. I also find it interesting that he didn't notice that neither of you were wearing rings though, but not unusual if not into those details.

 

My exH had just been relieved of his Chapter 7 that he filed, before we ever married, about six months before he left. He had already amassed several credit cards that he decided to default on just before his bankruptcy was relieved (10 years). I went ahead and took on all of the joint debt except for his personal credit cards. Make sure you have copies of that paperwork that the two of you took to the attorney today so you have an accounting of the joint and individual debt. Don't be obvious about it though. Again, don't rock the boat, but don't be unprepared either even though you want to be hopeful.

[AllieKat]

Another thing I wanna add is all our debt is joint debt and we are keeping our cars which are in both our names

[tojaz]

Even though it is joint debt Trippi gives good advice there. Know your liability and protect yourself in case the worst case scenario does come around. Its better to know and not need it then need it and not know. Bring it up with your attorney and even though you don't want to, bring it up before you pay the fee on the Chap. 13.

 

TOJAZ

[AllieKat]

I will definately ask the lawyer on Wed! Good thing is lawyer Im seeing also does bankruptcy too. I know if we do the chap 13 we are both responsible for that paument he cant just duct and run from it

[trippi1432]

Allie - Just be sure that you have a firm understanding of the joint responsibility in the case of divorce during the Chapter 13. Debtors do not care about your divorce agreement and you can still find yourself having to hire lawyers further down the road if he defaults just to get him to pay according to the agreement or to repay you if you have to pay beyond what you agreed to in order to keep it off your credit.

 

Good luck....and do keep this all under your hat for now. Bringing it up will only speed you to D day by showing all your cards right now.

[AllieKat]

H and i talked a little this moring about chapt 13 and he used "we" alot as far mentioning that they will set us up with a repayment plan we can afford, he was saying they wont leave us with only a small amount to live on. Its apparent that if he does want a D he has no clue how chap 13 will effect that. He didnt mention D.

 

When i went to work he sent me a text the first time he has iniated a text to me since the fight. He was telling me he found tires now for his car, how much they were and where they were and that he was going to get them today. I replied back simply ok cool. I came home at lunch and he was quiet and i said oh i thought youd be gone and he said no not till later and i imposed and asked if he wanted me to go. He said if you want. So i told him i would and we went. He didnt talk much but he did tell me he wants to redo our tire monitering thing in our car in a few months.

 

So then we came home. Hes pretty quiet tomorrows his first day at the new job so I know hes nervous.

 

Its clear to me more than ever H is not 100% on board with a D and that buys me time. Going to lawyer tomorrow just to hear my options

[tojaz]

Hes making plans with you for months in the future, that doesn't sound like someone hell bent on divorce like he was.

 

The new job is another stressor he will be able to put behind him, I think first paycheck will be another milestone day. I think and hope once he is comfortable in his new job and the bankruptcy is set in motion his emotions will settle some and you will be able to get closer to him again.

 

Still think the lawyer is a good idea, but keep it on the DL.

 

TOJAZ

[AllieKat]

Ugh going soon to Lawyer very nervous. I had a thought " maybe H is just making me crazy so I go file" i just dont know

[AllieKat]

Went to lawyer- expensive if I go with them but thats a lawyer. Basically as far a D goes Im in a no fault state but if he files the day im served is oyr fate if seperation since we still reside together. There is a mandartory 90 waiting period too. In those 90 days if i request conseling the court can and usuallt does order it! Also if I dont respond to his filing I could tech. Drag it out for 2 years, not that I would.

 

As far as bankruptcy she advised me to tell bankruptcy lawyer H's plans because filing chap 13 makes no sense for a couple who will be D'ing. She said she on a personal level wonders why H wouldnt tell lawyer when he asked us if we had any questions about D!

 

H came home and I asked how first day was. He was short and said fine. He didnt seem interested in talking to me. I decided to ask questions about the things he did instead and he answered and did tell me more but Im started to feel like though there is always hope still, he may honestly not care for me any longer. I dont know maybe im just having a bad day because I missed him and he has started this new job and Im left out not knowing much and sometimes his interactions seem like he wished Id let him be. The spark in his eye for me is gone. I dont know what if anything I can do to get it back :'-(

[AllieKat]

Im having the type of day where I feel like I need to give up. I hate this feeling but i know i didnt do anything and yet he seems unhappy with me. I know that if he was ready to reconcile hed let me know like last time but i see none of that and even though at times he seems like he cares it seems like to much time has passed and hes over me!!!

 

Btw- i go to dr tomorrow for meds... I hope

[AllieKat]

Lol i have to add another thing too... Im afraid now that hes outra that crappy job that he think new job and our relationship breaking up as happiness. Meaning since he happier now he equate that to being rid of me and the old job. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone but im afraid hell feel happier now and less stressed and think of that as being apart from me

[trippi1432]

The lawyer is a well know bankruptcy lawyer he asked if we had any questions but he never asked us if we were divorcing either, I guess that wouldnt normally be a question to ask to married people. I certainly wasnt bringing it up.

 

Then again he could always come up before we pay and who knows maybe H will bring it up. I guess I still have mo more clarity

 

As far as bankruptcy she advised me to tell bankruptcy lawyer H's plans because filing chap 13 makes no sense for a couple who will be D'ing. She said she on a personal level wonders why H wouldnt tell lawyer when he asked us if we had any questions about D!

 

H came home and I asked how first day was. He was short and said fine. He didnt seem interested in talking to me. I decided to ask questions about the things he did instead and he answered and did tell me more but Im started to feel like though there is always hope still, he may honestly not care for me any longer. I dont know maybe im just having a bad day because I missed him and he has started this new job and Im left out not knowing much and sometimes his interactions seem like he wished Id let him be. The spark in his eye for me is gone. I dont know what if anything I can do to get it back :'-(

 

Allie - Did you tell the lawyer today that the bankruptcy lawyer never brought it up? Did you ask her about this -----> "by filing prior to a divorce, he might be able to eliminate his obligation to pay. He then must address this issue during the divorce and determine whether he will accept liability on debt that he likely will eliminate in bankruptcy."

 

I know you are emotional....understood, who wouldn't be? Right now, he is in a different mode than you. New job, new schedules.....even without the issues the two of you have had, it's stress. It's also what some people refer to as LIFE. You are worrying too much about getting something back that has become broken, so why aren't you working TOWARD something that can be better? Honestly, when people love truly and deeply....they don't lose that easily, but they will do everything they can to convince themselves that they don't.

 

Don't let your own fears get to you, let him get acclimated to the new job without making it about what he is no longer doing, but don't sell yourself short on the legal advice either.

[AllieKat]

I did tell her that lawyer didnt ask. She said that is normall he wouldnt ask BUT if he had been told that she doubts he would take our case.

 

As for him filing B first before D she called just a dumb move! She said where we live its typically 50/50 split in things from date of marriage to sate of seperation and regardless of whose name is on what things, except for gifts and anything inheretted. She made it sound as though he WONT be able to duck and run from his/our debt but just that we'd do better filing chap 7 after we D because our income will be less individually.

 

As for getting emotional im just getting frustrated because i feel like we are getting anywhere and i dont know what to do to get him care for me

[trippi1432]

i dont know what to do to get him care for me.[/b]/QUOTE]

 

 

What did he love about you to begin with? Honest question, this came up in my MC. What attracted him to begin with?

[tojaz]

I did tell her that lawyer didnt ask. She said that is normall he wouldnt ask BUT if he had been told that she doubts he would take our case.

 

As for him filing B first before D she called just a dumb move! She said where we live its typically 50/50 split in things from date of marriage to sate of seperation and regardless of whose name is on what things, except for gifts and anything inheretted. She made it sound as though he WONT be able to duck and run from his/our debt but just that we'd do better filing chap 7 after we D because our income will be less individually.

 

As for getting emotional im just getting frustrated because i feel like we are getting anywhere and i dont know what to do to get him care for me

 

Allie you have come quite a distance since you started here. Its not moving as fast as you like, but you have made some progress, allow yourself to accept the good moments that have occurred.

 

In all of this what have you learned about yourself? WHat improvements are you taking from it all regardless of him? Thats where the lasting progress is going to be found, and its the things he will take notice of the most.

 

TOJAZ

[AllieKat]

I think what first attracted him besides anything on the outside was we were friends first and i always listened to him, he thought or has always told me how sweet and thoughtful I am and he may been attracted to my independence at first too but he also liked being the night in silver armor to me. When we first got together he wanted to help me as i was a struggling single mom. He would literally drive 8 hours to just drop off a present to my daughter then drive 8 hours home. Even though i wouldnt let him in!! Lol it was a ldr first so we built an amazing friendship

 

As for what ive learned aside from anything to do with him. I guess that im still that independent girl i just got dusty. Ive learned a little more control over my actions and words, and have tamed that impulsive side down a bit. I think i'll never tell a lie again...

[AllieKat]

Im having a hard time seeing anything positive right now because of the length of time. It just seems the longer this goes on the less he will feel for me! I feel like nothing I do makes anything better.

[Yasuandio]

Just catching up again, Ms. Allie. My first impression was in agreement with posterings of past. Sometimes you may be overthinking stuff. From what I've read, men are not as deep as you're analysis tends to suggest. That is, that men are more like a Streetlight, perhaps?

 

Green - when things are going good or great. Yellow, when there is caution. And a BIG RED - when they sense something wrong (and instinctively retreat). Accordingly, the man's Streetlight can change in an instant, as well. I have found this analogy to be pretty good. Or - at least it has helped me stop re-cycling analytical theories, that tend to get me no where.

 

So could we say, the fights were a Big Red light, and they have now cooled down to a consistent Yellow, for a time? And you are anxious for the traffic signal to turn Green?

 

Now, while this example clearly borders on oversimplification, can you relate to it? Can anyone see sense in it?

 

New job, tire issues, bankruptcy, recent marital issues - I can see why the man would remain in a cautionary state for a time. Therefore, my point is, if you can look at HIM in this simplified manner, (rather than analyzing every positive or negative movement that occurs everyday), could you then more easily accept HE is going to be in the Yellow zone another - let's guess, few months? Would that be so unreasonable given the mix of circumstances (job, marital issues, Preg/unpreg, bankruptcy)?

 

Ok. One other point. That is, if you like the analogy. There was a day, not long ago when you asked for your ring back, and you received the answer, "no," basically. I will tell you that bothered me. But, according to the analogy - you actually provoked a momentary "Red Light," (or, that's another way we can look at it).

 

I'd say you have to avoid Red Lights, this is where you have been doing your BEST WORK. I can sense you are getting impatient again - and I cannot say I blame you. I mean, here you are - not really know whether the "text divorce" message and the verbal "you know, divorce" statement, are still on the table or not.

 

So, if you are itching for a Red Light moment - make it good. For example, it is possible that studying the movement, words, actions, nonactions of

each day - is going to eventually takes it's toll - and your anxiety may, (understandably, mind you), blow a gasket, and receive another Red Light.

 

Due to the bankruptcy issue brought by Allie's attorney, and the uncertainty she's bound to contend with at least another month or two (or three), I think she may need to know if the divorce is on the table or not. [i am also factoring in husband's refusal to give ring back]. It's gonna be a Red Light for sure.

 

What do you guys think? Does Allie's attorney raise a legitimate point? Does she need to know where she stands with husband on divorce before she blindly cooperates with bankruptcy? Does the bankruptcy attorney really need to know if divorce is on table? Do you really ever know if you'll be able to get the real truth at this point? I'm not telling u what to do, just asking some questions to consider, Ms. Allie.

 

I hope this "Men R Simple" example helps you like it helped me. I will keep my eye on you. Yas

 

Hi to Trippi & Tojaz!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yasuandio

[AllieKat]

Yas- thanks for checking in! I love the red light/ green light/ yellow light thing. Sure its an oversimplification but i get it! Makes sense! Im having a hard time letting the over analizing stuff go! I am obsessing over every little action because Im so desperately hoping to solve this mystery. Yet when im calmer i look at that and think wth am i doing?

 

I wish I coukd keep in mind we have made progress in the last two weeks and I cant really put a timeline on how long a person is allowed to be hurt. Its just hard when your the one "waiting" to be forgiven or waiting to be dumped!

 

Our anniversary is in a few weeks I think that is a constant on my mind too!

 

Went to Dr today and got on meds, hopefully that can help with the paranoid, over thinking, implusive thoughts and anxiety

[Yasuandio]

I'm happy u liked the traffic light thingy.

 

I suffer from severe anxiety - paranoia, overthinking, etc., can be the symptoms of such. I have found that uncertainty can increase my anxiety ten-fold. As does living in an environment of hostility (which is what I coped with so many years).

 

For me, the anxiety never really went away - that's why you are wise to get it under control NOW, or it will control you. Bravo, Ms. Allie for getting treatment! Just accept he's on Yellow light right now, and go take a nice bubble bath.

 

When I was still teaching in university, I used a traffic light as an instructional tool for elementary education students (variations of "time-out"). Teachers would have students writer their names on clothes pins, which all were attached to the Green Light. One false move, teacher just moves clothes pin to Yellow, without a word. If clothes pin with student's name makes it to Red, they go to time out - no discussion. It worked really great.

 

Too bad we cannot enforce same methodology at home with spouse. Anyway, you are sailing on Green Light Ms. Allie, such a big difference from when you first began posting. Do you see the diffence in how much more control you have over yourself? Yas

[tojaz]

What do you guys think? Does Allie's attorney raise a legitimate point? Does she need to know where she stands with husband on divorce before she blindly cooperates with bankruptcy? Does the bankruptcy attorney really need to know if divorce is on table? Do you really ever know if you'll be able to get the real truth at this point? I'm not telling u what to do, just asking some questions to consider, Ms. Allie.

 

I hope this "Men R Simple" example helps you like it helped me. I will keep my eye on you. Yas

 

Hi to Trippi & Tojaz!

Hi Yas!

 

I'm thinking more information is needed. While Allies lawyer said filing Chap 13 was a "dumb move" it isn't said if it is damaging in any way. If not and it helps H mellow a little then I would just ride it out rather then initiating another red light. If the filing will hurt Allie financially should this go to D, then by all means she needs to act as if the D is a certainty and protect herself.

 

As for getting the truth. Honestly, I don't even think DH even knows the truth at this point. Hes still formulating his next move, hence the state of yellow but a hair trigger to get him back to red. (I'm liking this analogy Yas.)

 

Yas- thanks for checking in! I love the red light/ green light/ yellow light thing. Sure its an oversimplification but i get it! Makes sense! Im having a hard time letting the over analizing stuff go! I am obsessing over every little action because Im so desperately hoping to solve this mystery. Yet when im calmer i look at that and think wth am i doing?

 

I wish I coukd keep in mind we have made progress in the last two weeks and I cant really put a timeline on how long a person is allowed to be hurt. Its just hard when your the one "waiting" to be forgiven or waiting to be dumped!

 

 

Its a terrible place to be Allie. Its hard and very taxing on you.

 

You can't solve the mystery Allie. You don't have all the information or the ability to interpret the clues. Nobody does but DH and he may not have the ability just yet.... but he doesn't want anybody to know that.

 

The waiting game is a killer if you let it be. That part IS up to you.

 

TOJAZ