Would you give up porn if your loved one asked?

[xxoo]

No one tells a man not to judge a woman that is struggling with his porn use. Usually what is said is, "she is just insecure, she will get over it, she is being up tight". There are tons of preconceived judgements placed on women especially if they don't believe porn is the best thing in the world. Why is it then no one ever tells anyone else not to judge those women? But someone judging someone using porn? That's close minded?

 

It is equally closed minded to judge your partner's criticisms of porn without hearing out their reasons.

 

The problem I see is when they have heard the reasons, repeatedly, and explain that the reasons don't apply to them or their personal use, and then feel unheard. If the reasons are things like "you think about sex with those women when you are with me", and the partner explains that is not true--the conversation can only be productive if the other partner is "open" to the possibility that porn can be used without thinking of those women when with their partner. And etc for all other beliefs about porn use.

 

I will ask you again, are you claiming I am a close minded?

 

Discussion of you, personally, is off topic and would be an unfair thread jack.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

It is equally closed minded to judge your partner's criticisms of porn without hearing out their reasons.

 

That works both ways. You seem to only be applying it one way. Guy likes porn. Woman doesn't. Guy gives reason why he likes it. Case closed right? But that's not really fair. Especially if he is judging her for the reasons she may not like it. Like simply boiling it down to "insecurity" or pretty much diminishing her thoughts on it because they don't align with his. The situation you describe above certianly works both ways XXOO.

 

The problem I see is when they have heard the reasons, repeatedly, and explain that the reasons don't apply to them or their personal use, and then feel unheard. If the reasons are things like "you think about sex with those women when you are with me", and the partner explains that is not true--the conversation can only be productive if the other partner is "open" to the possibility that porn can be used without thinking of those women when with their partner. And etc for all other beliefs about porn use.

 

Wanting to be heard is something both sides need. And I think that's the real struggle. Neither side feels heard because both want the other one to just adopt their viewpoint. If she believes that porn is negative and misogonistic toward women and he doesn't, that doesn't make her close-minded. If she doesn't want it in their relationship because of her beliefs on the topic of porn, that doesn't make her close minded and him open minded. It means they view it differently and they need to figure out the next step.

 

Further, there is information out there that infact says that men do store images in their head to draw from when they are either engaging in masturbationg OR sex. It's not like men never ever think of other women during sex. So if he is thinking about other women during sex, she has a legitmate reason to be concerned if that's the issue for her. There are people that don't have to think of others during sex with their partner and if that's the kind of person she wants or relationships she wants, she should be free to find that.

 

Discussion of you, personally, is off topic and would be an unfair thread jack

.

 

You are more then welcome to private message me.

 

I am still left with the impression that this is what you are insinuating and I would appreciate you taking a moment to clear it up if that's not the case. Are you insinuating I am close minded about porn? Feel free to private message me.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

What's the benefit for me to change behavior? Its not about porn its the principle. You knew what I do but now all of the sudden it has to stop. In real life no one really stops or starts anything unless it benefits them. When it comes to me if it don't benefit me then you have to give up something. If you can't show me how it benefits me or you give up something then you should get on like you got s**t on.

 

I think when people work toward a simliar goal in their relationship, trying to meet each other needs, that it's positive. Sometimes this requires giving things up, sometimes it doesn't.

 

This was actually a discussion somewhere else about women not orgasming with their partners. I've had sex at times I didn't always feel like it. I sometimes didn't even have an orgasm. One could say I didn't get anything out of it for my personal gratification. But I was happy to give my partner something he wanted/needed at the time. Even when I didn't feel like having sex I did because that's what he wanted and I think it's important sometimes to do things you may not always *feel* like doing but do so out of love and care for your partner. That's just my relationship belief.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Robert Z

You keep changing your criteria. Healty is not the same as honest. Accountability isn't the same thing as sophistication.

 

I didn't change my criteria at all Robert. I said the same thing in my first post to you that I did in the second. And I never said accountability was the same thing as sophisticiation. But I do think having accountability requires someone to be more honest with themselves and with the people in their lives that may be affected by doing certain activities they may be hiding. Whatever that may be. I just think today since we don't have much accountability for porn use, that it is so easily obtained in the privacy of someone's home, that it's a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.

 

Look at our society. We don't even have people that can manage their food intake, half the world is over weight (or more). We don't have people that can manage their money. Debt is a huge issue. But you somehow think that people today are managing their porn use any better? I highly doubt it.

 

 

I think I understand your objection but I don't see how it applies to my argument. The fact is, not that long ago, sex was not generally up for discussion. It is healthy to bring it out of the closet. That doesn't mean that everything that's happened is healthy.

 

I agree that more open talks about sex is healthy. I just don't think where we are now is healthy. People seem to equate sensationlism in sexuality with "health" and I disagree with that.

 

 

Now I have a fantastic sex life with three beautiful young women who make me very happy. And it is far less expensive for all three than all of the grief I suffered while trying to be a good and loyal husband... to a woman who thought sex was optional.

 

You pay to have sex with women? Perhaps we should leave that portion out of the topic since that is a different discussion from porn use.

 

 

Why should anyone have to be accountable to anyone for their most basic desires? Is this a religious thing for you? It is now sounding like a faith based argument.

 

Lol no. Nothing to do with religion. I think people should be accountable for all their desires. Without accountability, there is chaos. Whether they be sexual or other things. Just because someone has a desire doesn't mean they should railroad over everyone else to get what they want or not be accountable for it and how they act with that desire. Just because a woman wants a rich husband doesn't mean it's right when she uses that rich husband as just a means to support her lifestyle. I think we are increasingly in a time where people don't want to be accountable for their actiosn. Which is why you get so much muck thrown around on message boards that people would never say to other people in real life. They aren't accountable for what they say, not really, because it's easy to say anything you want to a stranger. So what happens? You just do whatever you "feel" like doing no matter how you are treating someone else. It's simply chaotic if everyone just starts doing whatever feels good to them. It becomes all about "me" and people don't stop to think about others.

 

 

Religion instructed women to be submissive to their husbands. Now submissive is a dirty word. It has everything to do with the discussion.

 

The Bible certainly does say "women submit to your husband". But it also asks that men love their wives like they love their own bodies. The reason God gave those two edicts is because these are two things the individual sexes have trouble with. Women have a hard time letting go control to their husbands and men have a hard loving their wives like their own bodies. Women weren't simply dictated to be submissive for the sake of it. There is a lot of meaning behind that kind scripture.

 

Now some men have abused this to their advantage. Some men have taken the idea of submission to an unhealthy level and have taken it out of the context of what the Bible was saying. Men and women are always equal in the Bible. Submitting to your husband doesn't mean you aren't equal. I see a lot of religious couples that make choices together while trying to honor the commands God gave them.

 

 

Maybe if women were a little less liberated and a bit more considerate of men's needs, not so many men would need porn. But instead of recognizing that men need plain old sex, women want to always make it all about love and their needs. Many are unwilling to recognize that men have a different sexual nature.

 

I think it comes down to compromise. I do think women need to be considerate of men's sexual needs. If a woman isn't have sex with her man, then they need to figure out why and work on it. But I don't think it's fair to say that since men need sex that everything else is obliterated from consideration. Such as her own feelings and needs.

 

Tell me this. If you really plan to keep a man happy, would are you so worried about him needing porn? See, I see this as a power play. You probably expect to have sex when you feel like it and never any other time, but you want his total dedication to you. Right?

 

Actually no. I have had sex with my male partners even when I didn't always feel like it. I believe sex is important in a relationship and just because I don't feel like doing something in the moment, doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. I also don't feel like working out a lot but I do that too anyway. I just think that if I am doing things that I don't always feel like to make him happy, I would hope for the same from him.

 

 

If your man agreed to never look at porn, would you agree to put out whenever he needs sex [within reason, I don't mean at the grocery store]?

 

Yes I would! Like you said, "within reason". I think that as long as I am meeting his needs more times then not, he can meet me in the middle for the times I'm not meeting his needs.

[Ross MwcFan]

It would totally depend on the reason.

[xxoo]

That works both ways. You seem to only be applying it one way.

 

No, I am clearly saying that listening and learning before judging goes both ways.

 

 

 

Wanting to be heard is something both sides need. And I think that's the real struggle. Neither side feels heard because both want the other one to just adopt their viewpoint.

 

It's difficult, but possible with good communication skills and mutual trust. If either side goes in with wanting the other to just adopt their viewpoint, it won't go far.

 

Further, there is information out there that infact says that men do store images in their head to draw from when they are either engaging in masturbationg OR sex. It's not like men never ever think of other women during sex. So if he is thinking about other women during sex, she has a legitmate reason to be concerned if that's the issue for her.

 

My point is that information will not apply to every individual. That's part of being open-minded: being open to the idea that not every person uses porn like the "average user". On the flip side, being open to the idea that not ever person who is leery of porn is insecure. Dig deeper, and understand each other before making judgments and drawing lines in the sand.

 

 

 

You are more then welcome to private message me.

 

I am still left with the impression that this is what you are insinuating and I would appreciate you taking a moment to clear it up if that's not the case. Are you insinuating I am close minded about porn? Feel free to private message me.

 

I am not insinuating anything, about you personally or otherwise. I am not talking about you personally. I don't know how much clearer to make that.

[123321]

That works both ways. You seem to only be applying it one way. Guy likes porn. Woman doesn't. Guy gives reason why he likes it. Case closed right?

 

Pretty much.

[zengirl]

If I was engaging in something my partner didn't like, and we had a good talk about it and we both talked about how we felt and what kind of relationship we were looking to have, especially if it was something I deemed unimportant in the first place, why wouldn't I give it up? I don't understand the logic in saying something is unimportant but at the same time, if push came to shove, one would feel adversely to not have it anymore.

 

Others have already explained some aspects, though I will add a few thoughts on this.

 

It is controlling to assume a partner should stop doing anything you dislike simply because you dislike it. It is especially controlling if you're seeking to change behavior you could have asked about earlier in the R or already knew about. To me, it is very important to maintain my autonomy to some degree in a R --- I will happily hear out a partner on anything he feels is negatively impacting him or the R, but I expect to be allowed to share MY side as well and have it equally heard and to be able to decide for myself. It's not the importance of the thing (though just because I don't need something and it's not important to my life doesn't mean I don't enjoy or want it) but rather the notion of lost autonomy and, frankly, being treated like a child or an extension of my partner that I find problematic about the "Just stop!" type ideas.

 

As for what is controlling, it can be equally controlling to demand with no discussion that someone give up porn as it is to hold onto porn with two fits and imply that someone that doesn't want it part of their lives is automoatically controlling.

 

I don't think it's ever controlling to continue a personal behavior you already do or even start a new personal behavior, if you don't force your partner's involvement in it directly. I don't see how someone watching porn could be construed as 'controlling' their partner who didn't want to watch it.

 

I also don't think liking porn makes one more open-minded at all. Or makes someone a better sexual partner.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested either of those things are true. Though I will say SOME anti-porn speech (these threads included) has been very closed-minded. That doesn't mean everyone who dislikes porn is closed-minded, or that everyone who watches it is open-minded.

 

No one's dislike of porn makes them closed-minded. It is when they make assumptions about porn use that it becomes closed-minded. Such as assuming that because a man watches porn and continues use that he needs it or that he's misogynistic because you feel porn is misogynistic.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think people should be accountable for all their desires.

 

I think this is an area where you pretty much stand alone. Personally, I believe that my desires are my own business and it's up to me whether I share my desires with anyone else or not. Sharing my desires with my mate would likely be in the best interests of intimacy (I'm not even talking specifically about sexual desires here, either). Doing so would be a positive thing for our relationship. But not because I am "accountable" to him for my desires.

 

 

The idea that I am to be held "accountable" for any desires I might have? I'm sorry, but that is deeply offensive and even a frightening concept to me. It's edging towards mind control. I would not hold anyone on earth accountable to ME or to any other human being for their desires. Maybe to God, if they believe that way …

 

 

t's not really fair either way to say, "This person is just being controlling because they don't like porn or want it in their relationship, they are close minded" or "This person is just being controlling because they like porn and do want to keep using it, they are cloes minded."

 

 

I don't think "fairness" is part of this discussion.

 

If a person is trying to CONTROL the behavior of another person, that is CONTROLLING.

 

If a person is doing something all by themselves, that is NOT controlling.

 

It's pretty simple and basic.

 

That said, I will reiterate what I often say in these discussions:

 

Regarding porn, as well as innumerable other things, it is ideal for people to pair up with like minded others for mates, rather than trying to change somebody to fit their own criteria.

[zengirl]

I think this is an area where you pretty much stand alone. Personally, I believe that my desires are my own business and it's up to me whether I share my desires with anyone else or not. Sharing my desires with my mate would likely be in the best interests of intimacy (I'm not even talking specifically about sexual desires here, either). Doing so would be a positive thing for our relationship. But not because I am "accountable" to him for my desires.

 

Right. I wouldn't necessarily see any benefit in hiding my mind or desires from Hubby, as sharing such things is the basis of intimacy, which I consider extremely positive, but if he thought I was 'accountable' to him on those matters, I'd feel controlled. And probably leave, tbh. I couldn't deal with that level of control from a partner.

[123321]

Right. I wouldn't necessarily see any benefit in hiding my mind or desires from Hubby, as sharing such things is the basis of intimacy, which I consider extremely positive, but if he thought I was 'accountable' to him on those matters, I'd feel controlled. And probably leave, tbh. I couldn't deal with that level of control from a partner.

 

I often have the urge to speed while driving, should I get a ticket for that?

[Mme. Chaucer]

With regards to accountability, it can certainly help to hold MYSELF accountable to others if I WISH to work on changing some of MY OWN behaviors.

 

As I have posted plenty of times before, I am a "recovering" addict and one of the cornerstones of my recovery has been to hold MYSELF accountable for my actions and even any potentially harmful desires in that particular regard that I might have - and, by choice, to be accountable to another person about those things.

 

This is all coming from me, though. The person to whom I'm accountable doesn't come after me asking for accountings of my desires and urges. This would be anathema to the relationship established (by ME) in order to help myself recover from addiction.

 

If I didn't want to be in recovery, there is no way I would be accountable to anyone about that stuff.

 

Accountability is a personal choice, not one imposed by other people.

 

I do believe that when people marry or are in other intimate relationships, they have tacitly agreed to be accountable to one another. But if there are not boundaries about what is "mine," "yours" and "ours" in these regards, I think the relationship will be doomed to failure.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I often have the urge to speed while driving, should I get a ticket for that?

 

You should at least have to say a plethora of Hail Marys.

[123321]

Absoluetely. Everything always depends on the reasons and motivations behind why we do things. But that goes both ways too.

 

So what would be a reasonable reason for someone to (1) suddenly change their view on porn and (2) ask their partner to change because of it?

There are many reasons and many situations. Am I really suppose to list each one?

 

The wink is because I thought "reasonable reason" was odd sounding but it nonetheless expressed my meaning.

 

Just name ... 3 reasons.

 

Still waiting. Surely 3 of the many is an easy task.

[ScienceGal]

ScienceGal, when you say you watch it "once in awhile", what does that mean exactly? 1 time a week? 1 time a month? 1 time a year?

 

once every few months.

[123321]

The line on porn tends to pretty blurry anyway, a lot of the art I look at would be considered porn (I suspect) by people like Fred & Co. so it's a difficult thing to even identify.

 

Is showing sex porn? Then when I watched "Enemy at the Gates" again last night I was watching porn, again. Nudity isn't enough alone, for me, to make it porn.

[ScienceGal]

The line on porn tends to pretty blurry anyway, a lot of the art I look at would be considered porn (I suspect) by people like Fred & Co. so it's a difficult thing to even identify.

 

Is showing sex porn? Then when I watched "Enemy at the Gates" again last night I was watching porn, again. Nudity isn't enough alone, for me, to make it porn.

 

True. Some sex scenes in movies and shows are more revealing than others though. Have you seen Game of Thrones on HBO? Some of the sex scenes are more pornographic than any other show I've seen. There was a scene with two nude women, one fingering the other until she climaxed. I thought it was pornographic, and no doubt something that appeals to many of the viewers. I happen to like the show, and don't mind that level of pornography in it, and I'd still watch if it wasn't included.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm still interested in pursuing the "accountability for all our desires" theme.

[It's Just Me]

Meh. Porn is porn. In this day and age, thanks to the internet, very available, and almost uninteresting because of it. My BF has hinted that he'd like to watch some with me some day (we've been together for almost a year). I'm fine with that, to get some new ideas on stuff we can do if we so desire. Whether he watches it now, when I'm not around - I don't really care. As trite as this sounds, boys will be boys, and I'm okay with that.

 

To me, what matters is how he treats me in our relationship on a day-to-day basis. I do not feel neglected in the least. Quite the opposite, in fact. For those who enjoy it, porn has its place, as long as it does not replace human contact within a relationship, in my opinion.

[123321]

True. Some sex scenes in movies and shows are more revealing than others though.

 

Google "alfred weissenegger" or "Igor Amelkovich", for a sample of photos some people would clearly say are porn but many, many others will see as art.

[Radu]

Hello

 

The other porn threads seem to have gotten into a fighting match of sorts between those who have no problem with porn and those who do have a problem with it morally. People are diverse and see things in different ways. However, one thing that is important in a relationship is caring about what your loved one thinks and why.

 

If you like to see porn, and fall in love with a person who thinks porn is hurtful to that person's emotional/mental/spiritual connection with you, would you give up porn for her/him?

 

My Dad did. My parents are not perfect and have had various roller coasters of good/bad times in their marriage. However, I know without a doubt that they love each other, and part of the knowledge of their love is their willingness, on both sides, to give up certain things that hurt the other. Awesomely, my parents' marriage has grown stronger over the years!!!

 

For my Mom, porn is a big no-no. She was very hurt when she found out about my Dad's addiction to porn, and she confronted him about it. My Dad was already not fond of this addiction, but had a hard time letting it go. However, because of his love for my Mom, my Dad began the steps to get free from his porn addiction. As far as I know, he has not looked at porn in years, which my Mom is very grateful for and has helped them draw closer together, instead of pulled them apart.

 

There are groups of men in the community who meet together to help support each other in their fight against porn addiction, sort of like AA. Even though I understand that there are people who do not get addicted, habitual behaviors do tend to become addictive to some people.

 

Below is a link to an interesting article giving advice to men addicted to porn:

Dealing With Porn Addiction - AskMen

 

and another interesting article:

Internet Pornography Addiction - Signs, Stats, Help and Treatment

 

Now, whether you are addicted or not (and the first step to recovery from addiction is admitting one is addicted and no longer wants to be)

 

"Step 1 We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable

 

How It Works

 

The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.

- A.A. Big Book, p. 24 (Substitute your own addiction for drink if your addiction is different than alcohol)"

Step 1

 

Now, I understand that not everybody sees pornography as cheating, like some people do. However, if your partner feels hurt and a loss of connection with you because of porn, would you give it up in order to show your partner that you love her/him, whether you are addicted to porn or not?

 

Your title does not represent the thread.

Your title does not imply addiction to porn.

 

Addiction is a bad thing overall, it needs to be overcome.

 

In my situation, i monitor my time spent watching it and i have stopped in the past when i felt that things got out of hand [or i was dating].

If she asked me to stop because she objects to it morally, i'd say 'hit the road'.

If she asked me because she thought i had an addiction, i would start to keep a journal to see if i was addicted to it, and if i was [or close to it], i would take step.

 

Generally in relationships it's a dicey thing to say 'me or this that you like', because once you give some concessions [speaking as a guy], you feed that female fantasy of 'changing a man' to suit her needs ... disregarding yours.

[xxoo]

Google "alfred weissenegger" or "Igor Amelkovich", for a sample of photos some people would clearly say are porn but many, many others will see as art.

 

I'd be ok with my teen viewing those. I wonder if teens are permitted into the shows?

 

That does shine a new light on the question. If that is considered porn, I'd feel that my partner were asking me to give up art--and my first instinct would be to RUN away!

[Des]

No matter what day or age we live in, I'm always shocked and saddened to hear that some people prioritize porn of all things above their SO. So sad.

[123321]

It's less about priorities and more about the concept that I should be required to make arbitrary life changes at any time to continue to have her approval.

[Radu]

No matter what day or age we live in, I'm always shocked and saddened to hear that some people prioritize porn of all things above their SO. So sad.

 

Porn will never leave me.

Porn will never get GIGS.

Porn will never laugh at me when i have an engagement ring in my pocket.

Porn doesn't ask for much.

Porn offers variation.

Porn doesn't think of my money as 'our money' and her money as her money.

Porn is loyal, you can always get it, hidden in the OS folders.

Porn is more universal than the Dollar, and more widely accepted i might add.

Porn doesn't want me to wax phylosophical about feelings.

 

Why should i give all this stuff up because she bears the title of 'gf'.

All i can say is that if she wants to give all of this up and it's not because i have an addiction, then 'hit the road' and take your insecurities with you.