Would you give up porn if your loved one asked?

[zengirl]

No matter what day or age we live in, I'm always shocked and saddened to hear that some people prioritize porn of all things above their SO. So sad.

 

It's less about priorities and more about the concept that I should be required to make arbitrary life changes at any time to continue to have her approval.

 

Basically, this. I don't even watch porn, and I get why one would not give it up automatically for a partner.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Hello

 

 

If you like to see porn, and fall in love with a person who thinks porn is hurtful to that person's emotional/mental/spiritual connection with you, would you give up porn for her/him?

 

 

It depends. Would I be expected to give it up for the health of the relationship, or to enable a partner's insecurity issues?

 

If it is a mutually agreed-upon thing that eliminating porn would make for healthier libidos then that is one thing.

 

But... if the only reason is to enable insecurity issues then no amount of stopping porn will help. There will always be something that the partner will feel insecure about, and 'porn watching' wouldn't need to be fixed in order to have a healthy relationship: fixing the insecurity issues would.

[Jethro]

I wouldn't give up anything I enjoyed for another woman or anyone else for that matter- ever again. I've sacraficed a lot of myself to be in what I thought to be a loving relationship. **** that. I don't care if I do die alone, it beats changing myself to fit someone elses opinion of what I should be to them.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

once every few months.

 

Thanks ScienceGal! I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

No, I am clearly saying that listening and learning before judging goes both ways.

 

I agree with you about listening and learning. I disagree that having certain beliefs about something you find offensive makes one close minded.

 

 

It's difficult, but possible with good communication skills and mutual trust. If either side goes in with wanting the other to just adopt their viewpoint, it won't go far.

 

It really comes down to anything in a relationship. For some people, religion is a big factor in their relationships, for other's it isn't. Although there have been couples that have converted to other religions for whatever reason. Because they either came to believe in that religion or they did so for their partner. That doesn't mean you don't communicate about what both you want but it's up to the couple to decide what is best for them.

 

 

I am not insinuating anything, about you personally or otherwise. I am not talking about you personally. I don't know how much clearer to make that.

 

This is the first time you actually reponded to my question to begin with xxoo. Which I appreciate. It's clear now that you've given me a response. Thanks.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl

It is controlling to assume a partner should stop doing anything you dislike simply because you dislike it. It is especially controlling if you're seeking to change behavior you could have asked about earlier in the R or already knew about. To me, it is very important to maintain my autonomy to some degree in a R --- I will happily hear out a partner on anything he feels is negatively impacting him or the R, but I expect to be allowed to share MY side as well and have it equally heard and to be able to decide for myself. It's not the importance of the thing (though just because I don't need something and it's not important to my life doesn't mean I don't enjoy or want it) but rather the notion of lost autonomy and, frankly, being treated like a child or an extension of my partner that I find problematic about the "Just stop!" type ideas.

 

I don't think people ususally want their partners to stop engaging in certain behaviors just because they simply dislike it. I've been pretty open about the fact that I personally find issue with porn for more reasons then simply not liking it. SO I think it's a bit of an over simplification to the issue at hand to claim that the only time someone wants someone to stop doing something is just because they don't like it. Usually these things tie into the kind of lifestyle and relationship someone wants.

 

If someone wants their child to be Jewish but the other wants them to be Catholic, they are going to need to have serious discussions about how this is going to play out. Just because one side would like for their child to be Jewish and the other to be Catholic, doesn't mean either side is controlling. It ultimately comes down to what a couple decides.

 

I don't think changing behavior is neccesarily a negative thing or even one that has to mean someone looses their autonomy. There are places I am at now in my life that I wasn't at 5 years ago. My philosphies on life have changed and adapted. I have grown in areas. I have not remained the same. And I suspect that the rest of my life will continue on in that trend where as I develop into different stages of life, I will challenge some of the old ways I did thing. I am not saying anyone has to give up porn for this to happen. I am only making the point that changing behavior isn't always a negative and doesn't mean someone has to loose their autonomy. I know it's the people in my life that have come into it that have helped me grow. And sometimes I've learned from them and said, "yeah , that's more like how I want to be." and other times I said, "no, that isn't for me." But never have I not expected my behaviors to never change. It's ever evolving. And it doesn't have to be something that's rooted in negativity or even control.

 

A person can stand by what they believe and still work with someone that may not see things their way without being controlling.

 

 

I don't think it's ever controlling to continue a personal behavior you already do or even start a new personal behavior, if you don't force your partner's involvement in it directly. I don't see how someone watching porn could be construed as 'controlling' their partner who didn't want to watch it.

 

If someone wants something in their relationship and the other person doesn't want it in their relationship, and the couple is at odds as to what to do, it's very easy for both sides to want to maintain control of the situation by either asking for something or asking for something to be given up even as the other person refuses to do it. It ultimately comes down to what the couple decides. I don't think that asking someone to give up something automatically equates to being controlling. I also understand that relatinoships change. I also see how refusing to give something up is also a form of control in itself too. Needs change. Desires. People. It all changes within the course of a relationship. It's up to the couple and the individual at the end of the day.

 

 

I don't think anyone has suggested either of those things are true. Though I will say SOME anti-porn speech (these threads included) has been very closed-minded. That doesn't mean everyone who dislikes porn is closed-minded, or that everyone who watches it is open-minded.

 

I think there is a level of close-mindedness in telling someone they are close-minded to being with. I don't really believe any love shack poster to be close-minded individuals. We come here to explore and share ideas even if we don't want to change our ideas. Some of our beliefs are deeply rooted and some aren't.

 

I don't agree that some of the anti-porn speeches have been close minded. Not any more then the pro-porn speeches. We all have our indivudal beliefs and I don't see anyone here that is more closed mined or open minded then the next. We are all too vastly different to make that stereotype.

 

 

No one's dislike of porn makes them closed-minded. It is when they make assumptions about porn use that it becomes closed-minded. Such as assuming that because a man watches porn and continues use that he needs it or that he's misogynistic because you feel porn is misogynistic.

 

I meant to get back to you to address the "needs" thing from the other topic but it got a bit crazy and I haen't gotten to it yet. I hope to do so because I really do try to respond to people but we will see what happens.

 

We have very different ideas on "needs" and that's all I can say right now because I have to go back and read that post you made to really give it justice to respond.

 

I also never said a man was absolutely misogynisitc because I believe porn is misogynistic. People are never that one - dimensional. And I never believed them to be. However, I do not think it's wrong for me to question the type of material a man is viewing when it comes to women and he he enjoys seeing them treated.

 

If I have the core belief that *most* porn is misgonisitic, and we already both know that I do, then I think it's fair to have questions about what kind of belief system a man holds about women. And I think this is pretty open minded!

 

No one would look to someone that enjoyed videos that treated Jewish people a certain way, such as calling them purposely degrading names, putting them in stereotyped classified groups such as: short jews, tall jews, jews with big noses, jews with little noses, young jews, old jews, milfs jews, nazi loving jews, and protraying them in submissive positions more times then not vs whoever was dictating over them, then turn around and not think twice about what this person who enjoyed these videos thought about Jews. Yet society strangely enough accepts this treatment toward women and even casterates women who question the rationality of that or call out the reality that it's a bit hypocritic. It seems hypocritical to me to say that a man LOVES and RESPECTS women but loves seeing them called names, smacked around, stereotyped based on their body types and a host of actions we are al familiar with in porn. Do I think that man 100% hates women? Not at all. I am even sure there are women he loves and respects in his own life. But I don't think that means that everything is right and perfect with this picture either. Good men look at porn. I totally believe that. Men that love their families and their daughters and their wives. But that doesn't mean that porn is good to look at. Or that there are complexities going on under the surface and juxtaposers between how a man sees his wife or gf vs how he sees other women or enjoys seeing other women treated.

[ScienceGal]

Google "alfred weissenegger" or "Igor Amelkovich", for a sample of photos some people would clearly say are porn but many, many others will see as art.

 

The photos I looked at were beautiful.

[ScienceGal]

Thanks ScienceGal! I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

 

The only time I don't answer is when I don't notice there is a questioned aimed at me

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

I think this is an area where you pretty much stand alone.

 

I don't. I think people respect people who hold themselves accountable. Whether it's sex or other catagories of life.

 

Personally, I believe that my desires are my own business and it's up to me whether I share my desires with anyone else or not.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Sharing my desires with my mate would likely be in the best interests of intimacy (I'm not even talking specifically about sexual desires here, either). Doing so would be a positive thing for our relationship. But not because I am "accountable" to him for my desires.

 

Maybe I didn't describe what I mean by "accountable" well enough. I don't think you are accountable to anyone for your desires. I think you are only accountable to yourself for your desires. If someone really likes something that is considered twisted, only they are accountable for this and how they deal with that desire.

 

 

The idea that I am to be held "accountable" for any desires I might have? I'm sorry, but that is deeply offensive and even a frightening concept to me. It's edging towards mind control. I would not hold anyone on earth accountable to ME or to any other human being for their desires. Maybe to God, if they believe that way …

 

Well, I believe we are in control of our minds just like we are in control of our bodies. If I personally have a certain belief in my mind that I repeat to myself over and over again, I am accountable for that. However, I have the ability to change that if i want. That's not "mind control" so much of control of my mind to me. I believe that I need to work both on my body and mind and practice certain disciplines to live the best kind of life I can. Now I am NOT saying or have I ever said that you need to do antying personally with your own personal desires. That is completely up to you. But I don't think being "accountable" for ones self in any number of catagories in life is a bad thing or frightening or offensive. In general, both men and women like when they hold themselves accountable for their words, actions or deed. It means holding a certain level of responsiblity to one's self. I hope this clears this up a little better.

 

If a person is trying to CONTROL the behavior of another person, that is CONTROLLING.

 

If one person wants to raise their child Jewish and the other wants to raise it Catholic, is that also controlling? Or could it be that they just have a very different mindset here and need to do some serious talking to come to a situation that works for them?

 

If a person is doing something all by themselves, that is NOT controlling.

 

It's pretty simple and basic.

 

Except that when it comes to relationships, a person is no longer just by themselves. They certain have rights to their time by themselves and to be a seperate person. But if they don't see any matter of issues the same way, not agreeing on these things does not make one person controlling over the other.

 

That said, I will reiterate what I often say in these discussions:

 

Regarding porn, as well as innumerable other things, it is ideal for people to pair up with like minded others for mates, rather than trying to change somebody to fit their own criteria.

 

In a perfect world, absoluetely.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I'm still interested in pursuing the "accountability for all our desires" theme.

 

While Elswyth and 123 where liking your post, I was on vacation and I didn't even open my computer while I was away because vacation was pretty jammed pack. I'm sorry you thought that I was doing something amiss just because I didn't respond fast enough back to you to your liking.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

It's less about priorities and more about the concept that I should be required to make arbitrary life changes at any time to continue to have her approval.

 

No one said what you should personally do in your own relationship 123. It's up to each couple to come to that conclusion for themselves. Some might give up porn and others won't. Some might be happy to give up not even seeing it as a big deal. Other's won't.

 

But I do agree with Des and find it strange how many people will pick porn over a real person. Despite the claim that men don't pick porn over real women and sex. It seems a bit of a contradiction. If something isn't important to you, you don't simply fight for it for the sake of it. If porn is important to you, then yes, you wil lfight for it because i's important to you. (Not "you" you but a more general "you".) My personal opinion is people don't fight to not give up things if it isn't important to them more so then what may be opposing them. I don't think that's a wrong assumptoin to make or even an unfair one.

[123321]

If something isn't important to you, you don't simply fight for it for the sake of it.

 

I don't seek a relationship so I can fight. I seek a relationship with someone who is compatible. Who would want to seek a relationship with someone who has vastly different clashing views on many things?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I don't seek a relationship so I can fight. I seek a relationship with someone who is compatible. Who would want to seek a relationship with someone who has vastly different clashing views on many things?

 

I agree with you. seeking relationships with people are compatible is what it's all about. But I do think there will be things people clash on sometimes. I'm not saying that it should happen all the time.

[123321]

I agree with you. seeking relationships with people are compatible is what it's all about. But I do think there will be things people clash on sometimes. I'm not saying that it should happen all the time.

 

It should be sorted out before things get too serious. "Oh by the way, now that we've gotten married I think I should mention I find your 45 minute a week porn habit distressing" is not acceptable IMO.

[xxoo]

My personal opinion is people don't fight to not give up things if it isn't important to them more so then what may be opposing them. I don't think that's a wrong assumptoin to make or even an unfair one.

 

In this case, I would be fighting for my personal freedoms, rather than porn. I don't feel this is the way to go about resolving conflict between two married adults--pushing them to give something up. That is not the kind of marriage I have, or would want. And it is also the kind of approach that makes both of us dig in our heels.

 

From my perspective, there are better ways of handling conflict in a marriage between two mature adults, so that there is no need for this kind of fight.

[zengirl]

I don't think people ususally want their partners to stop engaging in certain behaviors just because they simply dislike it. I've been pretty open about the fact that I personally find issue with porn for more reasons then simply not liking it. SO I think it's a bit of an over simplification to the issue at hand to claim that the only time someone wants someone to stop doing something is just because they don't like it. Usually these things tie into the kind of lifestyle and relationship someone wants.

 

In that case, wouldn't it reflect deeper aspects of incompatibility and thus be a non-issue because the two parties were not compatible? I'll be honest, DY - I could never date a man who had your hang-ups on porn, as I see it as evidence of a very different view of sexuality that I personally find problematic. So the porn itself (which I don't use) would be a non-issue. It would be the views on sexuality that would make us incompatible. Would I dramatically alter my sexuality for anyone? Probably not. I imagine most people would not, and we usually don't ask people to do that.

 

In the case where someone is simply insecure, well catering long-term to a partner's insecurity without them realizing it's THEIR issue (xxoo's story of the magazines and her husband is a good example of her realizing it was his issue, and her partner appreciating that and amending his behavior - I think that's fine) and that THEY need to work on some stuff sounds like a bad idea to me.

 

I don't think changing behavior is neccesarily a negative thing or even one that has to mean someone looses their autonomy.

 

I'm not necessarily suggesting that it is per se. We all change our behaviors in our Rs, some naturally and some with conscious thought, but to expect someone to change something for you seems controlling to me. Requesting someone change a behavior should require a VERY good reason and it may lead to incompatibility if the partner requesting the behavior change considers it a big deal, IMO.

 

A person can stand by what they believe and still work with someone that may not see things their way without being controlling.

 

I think if a partner ultimately believes strongly against something another partner has integrated as a part of their life, they are fundamentally incompatible and it is controlling to expect one party to change. Since the person requesting the other one "give up" something is the one requesting the actual change in behavior, I find that more controlling than the person who simply wants to continue how he/she was.

 

I don't think that asking someone to give up something automatically equates to being controlling.

 

Asking? No.

 

Asking with expectation of success in getting it? Yes.

 

That's a very big difference. Requesting something, with no expectations, is NEVER controlling, I agree.

 

If I have the core belief that *most* porn is misgonisitic, and we already both know that I do, then I think it's fair to have questions about what kind of belief system a man holds about women. And I think this is pretty open minded!

 

Right, I would suggest that core belief has made you say some closed-minded things and become less objective in examining it. For instance, you often refer to the "porn type" body, but with the pics the gentleman posted in the other thread, I have NO IDEA what that even means. They posted a huge array of bodies! Some of the girls looked to be As or light Bs, and some were overweight, and all kinds of differences. And that's just the handful they posted! I'm sure there are many more. Therefore, when you build inaccuracies and assumptions on top of this core belief, that's where 'closed mindedness' comes in, I'd say.

 

It seems hypocritical to me to say that a man LOVES and RESPECTS women but loves seeing them called names, smacked around, stereotyped based on their body types and a host of actions we are al familiar with in porn.

 

IIRC, there is porn where women smack men around too, mostly watched by men, and most porn doesn't include violence of any kind. Granted, I'm not a connesuir and have only seen in passing some light-core stuff. I know they make all kinds. But I would say this is a fairly simplified view of porn that is not really objective or reflective of what most men are viewing. Perhaps someone like TW, who actually knows the industry better, can comment more on that. THIS is what I view as closed-minded, though, that even when you're introduced to new information and TW posts, say, an overweight porn star, you persist in saying the same thing. That even when someone points out most porns don't include violence, you reference it as being typical.

 

I don't. I think people respect people who hold themselves accountable. Whether it's sex or other catagories of life.

 

Accountable for their speech and actions, absolutely. Accountable to others for their interior life and fantasies? I think that was what MC was reacting to - the fact that someone could possibly be accountable to someone else for their interior life and fantasies. She has spoken many times, on other subjects and probably this one, about the importance of being accountable to yourself for your thoughts (something I agree with). But that's not the same as saying you're accountable to someone else for them.

 

Maybe I didn't describe what I mean by "accountable" well enough. I don't think you are accountable to anyone for your desires. I think you are only accountable to yourself for your desires. If someone really likes something that is considered twisted, only they are accountable for this and how they deal with that desire.

 

Considered twisted by whom, though? And where do we draw those lines? And is that even a healthy way to behave in terms of thoughts?

 

If one person wants to raise their child Jewish and the other wants to raise it Catholic, is that also controlling? Or could it be that they just have a very different mindset here and need to do some serious talking to come to a situation that works for them?

 

In that case, no one is calling the other one wrong or twisted for their beliefs though, are they? There is no shaming. There is nothing like that. There is only pure disagreement. I think the whole "give up porn" thing is different because of the shaming involved - I imagine most people who want it given up, see it the way you do, as something "twisted."

[Disenchantedly Yours]

It should be sorted out before things get too serious. "Oh by the way, now that we've gotten married I think I should mention I find your 45 minute a week porn habit distressing" is not acceptable IMO.

 

In a perfect world, lots of things would be sorted out between couples before they got serious. But that doesn't always happen. Relationships and love aren't always that rational in my experience. Sometimes it's messy. People aren't perfect, I know I am not perfect. I know you aren't perfect. If you don't find someone being bothered by a porn habit, whatever it may be: 45 minutes a week, once a month or once a day, acceptable, that's your right to. I clearly see things differently from you.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

In this case, I would be fighting for my personal freedoms, rather than porn. I don't feel this is the way to go about resolving conflict between two married adults--pushing them to give something up. That is not the kind of marriage I have, or would want. And it is also the kind of approach that makes both of us dig in our heels.

 

From my perspective, there are better ways of handling conflict in a marriage between two mature adults, so that there is no need for this kind of fight.

 

I don't understand who said "pushing" someone to do something. I have said a bunch of times in this thread that it is ultimately up to the couple to come to whatever choice works for them, that means two people can come to whatever conclusion works for them.

 

Naturally, there are many possible outcomes. And one possible outcome is that someone DOES agree to give something up, and they very well could have the mindset of "well this isn't even that important to me and I know if I give it up, it doesn't affect my life but it makes my partner happy, this could be a win-win." And if that works for that couple, that sounds like it's a good possible outcome for that couple. Clearly it's not good for you but that doesn't mean that if the situation works out that way, then any person is being "controlling". It's about what a couple agrees to do.

 

And it's my personal experience in life and philosphy that sometimes love is about sacrifice. Sometimes I do things for my fmaily members I don't feel like doing because I love them. Sometimes I have done things for boyfriends because I loved them, not because I always felt like doing it. Because I knew it would mean something to them even during the times it meant nothing to me. For me, that's how I want practice love. Don't mistake me and assume I am saying that this is right for everyone or that there is only one way of doing things and people must give porn or whatever. I'm not saying that at all. I'm only saying that I think sacrifice is part of love. Giving of ones self, is part of love. That's just my personal philosphy.

 

Each couple is free to choose what works for them, if they stay or break up. '

 

I know that if I was with a man that considered porn so much attached to his personal freedom or autonomy that he isn't the right person for me. We simply prioritize things a bit differently xxoo, and that's okay. Different people make the world go round.

 

I have not told anyone here what kind of relationship they should have or said you need to see things the way I see them.

 

From my perspective, the way two mature adults handle conflict is by working through the issue. That seems to be your perspective too.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

In that case, wouldn't it reflect deeper aspects of incompatibility and thus be a non-issue because the two parties were not compatible?

 

It could. It’s up to the couple to work things out in their own relationship. It’s up to them to decide what is important to them.

 

I'll be honest, DY - I could never date a man who had your hang-ups on porn, as I see it as evidence of a very different view of sexuality that I personally find problematic. So the porn itself (which I don't use) would be a non-issue. It would be the views on sexuality that would make us incompatible. Would I dramatically alter my sexuality for anyone? Probably not. I imagine most people would not, and we usually don't ask people to do that.

 

I’ll be honest too Zengirl. I don’t care if you couldn’t date a man that sees porn like I do. I never asked you to date someone like me and I don’t think your inability to date someone like me means much of anything except that we are two different people. I don't even really know what you think that comment illustrates in relation to this topic.

 

What you describe as my “hang-ups” I see as my personal beliefs and attaching the negative connotation that they are “hang-ups” is purposely offensive. I don’t know why you always have to take it to a personal place where you compare you and me with one another or to even think about how you couldn’t date a man like me. I never even once thought such things in relation to you and wouldn't see how that kind of comment is germaine to the conversation.

 

In the case where someone is simply insecure, well catering long-term to a partner's insecurity without them realizing it's THEIR issue (xxoo's story of the magazines and her husband is a good example of her realizing it was his issue, and her partner appreciating that and amending his behavior - I think that's fine) and that THEY need to work on some stuff sounds like a bad idea to me.

 

My beliefs about porn are not simply about insecurity. You may think they are, but I know myself well enough to know they are not. And that's all that really matters to me.

 

I don’t remember xxoo’s story about magazines so I can’t comment on that.

 

I think all relationships have different areas that couples will need to work on. That doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me at all. I have never been in a relationship, I have never see a relationship, even between the most loving of couples, that didn’t have areas they needed to work on. In my mind’s eye, relationships are learning experiences. Even with friends that I’ve had for 20+ years, I still am learning in my relationships with them. I still work on certain areas of my relationships with them. Some friends I have drifted from and some friends I’ve become closer with because of this.

 

I'm not necessarily suggesting that it is per se. We all change our behaviors in our Rs, some naturally and some with conscious thought, but to expect someone to change something for you seems controlling to me. Requesting someone change a behavior should require a VERY good reason and it may lead to incompatibility if the partner requesting the behavior change considers it a big deal, IMO.

 

Like I’ve said, it’s up to the couple to make those choices and conclusions. If a couple doesn’t want to do something the other couple thinks is good to do, then only those two can say what the outcome is. I can’t make the all inclusive comment that it’s “always” controlling when this is the case. Sometimes it very well could be. It depends on personal motivations and reasons. But it doesn't always have to be a matter of control. Each couple is entitled to come up with whatever kind of reasons they think justify doing whatever they want in their personal relationships.

 

Asking? No.

 

Asking with expectation of success in getting it? Yes.

 

That's a very big difference. Requesting something, with no expectations, is NEVER controlling, I agree.

 

Who said anything about “expecting” to get anything? I think both people have the potential to be controlling in this situation depending on how they choose to deal with it. That’s all. Again, it's up to that couple.

 

 

Right, I would suggest that core belief has made you say some closed-minded things and become less objective in examining it.

 

And there we have it... I knew we weren't too far off from a comment like this. You are unable to communicate with me without making it personal and attaching negative things and attempting to push these negative things onto me. This is why I try not to get into it with you. It always is bound to come to a place where you are attaching things to me that are usually negative and would be insulting to any human being. You can not just talk to me about differing opinions. You must attach labels to me. I do not understand why you do this in so many threads specifically directed to me. I really wish we could simply talk about how we disagree without telling the other person that they are this or that in our personal opinions.

 

No, my core beliefs do not "make" me say "close-minded" things and become less objective in examining it. I am extremely objective in this discussion and have valued opinions even when they disagree with your own. You are the only person in the history of me talking about such things that ever called me close-minded. Within all the places I've discussed this subject, within the articles I've written about this subject, I have never heard anyone ever call me close minded. I know myself well enough to know that I am not close minded. I know myself well enough to know who I am despite what you and a few other posters here repeatedly, and repeatedly and repeatedly try to push off on me. These threads are not a place for you to make personal and wrong character comments on me and to continue to push off negative mindsets about me simply because you don't like my view point. These threads are not a place for me to do that either.

 

The ironic part is that don’t believe anyone here is close minded yet I'm the one that's repeatedly told (only by a few select posters mind you) that I am close minded. Sure, some of these other select posters enjoy "dancing" around it but their words and actions are still transparent.

 

I just see people who have different beliefs. Which makes me really scratch my head over this whole close minded business. There is something off about someone accusing someone else of being close minded to begin with. That doesn’t embody the idea of open mindedness. I do not believe you to be a close minded person Zengirl. And I know that even “some” of my comments on porn aren’t close minded either. They certainly are different from yours for different reasons. But I don’t think it’s fair for someone to repeatedly accuse another person of close mindedness because that seems to buck against the idea of their own open mindedness to begin with.

 

For instance, you often refer to the "porn type" body, but with the pics the gentleman posted in the other thread, I have NO IDEA what that even means. They posted a huge array of bodies! Some of the girls looked to be As or light Bs, and some were overweight, and all kinds of differences. And that's just the handful they posted! I'm sure there are many more. Therefore, when you build inaccuracies and assumptions on top of this core belief, that's where 'closed mindedness' comes in, I'd say.

 

I’ve done my best to explain my view points on the concept of the “porn type” body and the similiarities I see in the women being posted. I get you disagree. I really don't know how to explain it in a way where we would see eye to eye on it. The reality is, we just might neve see eye to eye on it. But to say that because we don't understand each other here makes me close-minded is truly astounding. We see things differently. I can accept this and not make personally insulting suggestions that because we see things differently you are simply "inaccurate" and "close minded". Ridiculous and so wrong.

[123321]

In a perfect world, lots of things would be sorted out between couples before they got serious. But that doesn't always happen.

 

So there's a core issue to address.

[zengirl]

It could. It’s up to the couple to work things out in their own relationship. It’s up to them to decide what is important to them.

 

Well, of course, but I'm approaching this question from the inside of the R, not the outside. There's no point in approaching any R questions from the outside or else we'd all respond with, "Individual couples will work things out as they see fit." I'm not sure the point of distancing yourself from the question that way, especially since it was a "Would you?" question.

 

I’ll be honest too Zengirl. I don’t care if you couldn’t date a man that sees porn like I do.

 

I was illustrating a point, in the manner in which this issue reflects a deeper incompatibility in human sexuality and asking someone to change their basic sexuality seems above and beyond a simple request in many cases. Now I'm not suggesting that requires associating porn itself with your basic sexuality, but rather the openness and right to decide for yourself, rather than be dictated to by a partner, what your sexuality is.

 

It was describing how different mindsets could be incompatible. I don't know why that offends you -- I have tried to describe it more abstractly than this, and you've missed it (abstractions are hard to discuss), so I tried a concrete illustration, using a mindset you've professed.

 

What you describe as my “hang-ups” I see as my personal beliefs and attaching the negative connotation that they are “hang-ups” is purposely offensive.

 

You said you had issues relating to porn. To me, issues and hang ups are interchangeable synonyms. I was just re-stating what you had said.

 

At any rate, if we're all just going to sit around with our personal beliefs, saying that challenging a personal belief is 'wrong' in some way, what is the purpose of discussion?

 

My beliefs about porn are not simply about insecurity.

 

I did not suggest they were, but created a 2nd subset for insecurity, different from the mindset I see you've presented. That is why it's in a new paragraph.

 

I think all relationships have different areas that couples will need to work on.

 

Sure, but I think those areas need to be approached by mutual agreement, not by one partner expecting some change from the other or holding the other accountable for his/her every thought or fantasy. But, of course, Rs are learning experiences; however, they are cooperative learning experiences, not experiences where one tries to teach or preach at the other or change the other for their own sake.

 

Who said anything about “expecting” to get anything? I think both people have the potential to be controlling in this situation depending on how they choose to deal with it. That’s all. Again, it's up to that couple.

 

I don't see how someone who is asked to change has any potential to be controlling in THAT situation. They either assert themselves or be controlled. It would take an introduction of a new variable for them to be controlling, perhaps something like SD described above, "I'll give up porn if we have sex every day." Then there are two controlling people, negotiating based on variables they want to control. But the other person doesn't stop being controlling; they just introduce a dynamic that becomes about control.

 

Now that's not the same as asking --- xxoo's magazine example is good there --- a partner to do something for you, without expectation or coercion, and with acceptance of the partner's right to do what he/she wants and reasons for doing it. I think in that case, on many things, MOST people will be happy to make compromises and sacrifices, but they have to be allowed to make the choice themselves and be given a good reason to do so. They won't do so on everything, though, and they certainly won't do so when expected or when approached as though it's their issue. In some cases, this may show a fundamental incompatibility, which is good to reveal, so the couple can break up and learn from their experience. In some cases, it may reveal insecurity, which if it is persistent and not temporary, could easily wreck a R.

 

And there we have it... I knew we weren't too far off from a comment like this. You are unable to communicate with me without making it personal and attaching negative things and attempting to push these negative things onto me.

 

I have brought nothing from your personal life onto this board and am only reacting to the words, opinions, and views you have shared with us, illustrating what you said that made me think that, etc. The reason I must use labels is that all words and descriptions are labels to some degree. Why must you attempt to control communication beyond the TOS by trying to tell people special ways to talk to you? I did not call you any names -- I merely outlined my impression of your viewpoint, which you have shared on this topic.

 

I just see people who have different beliefs.

 

To be clear, I do not think it is that much about beliefs at all, really. I have no problem with your beliefs, except that when challenged, you simply refer to them as your beliefs. When shown pictures of women who look very different from each other, you still continue to say there's a "porn star look" and don't even remember the pictures. You barely responded, in that thread, to the pics joystick and TW added for your benefit. That hardly seems open-minded to me. That's just one example.

 

That doesn’t embody the idea of open mindedness.

 

Sure, it does. Open-mindedness isn't about seeing all views as equal; it's about accepting new information into your viewpoint and being able to integrate that. Before those pics were posted, I honestly had no idea if there was a "porn star" look. As the guys posted those pictures, I took that new information into consideration. I do this, in general, with all posts. With the body builder post, I noted I may have used the wrong word when you added the distinction - I probably did, but clarified why I had done so. That is incorporating and accepting new information, and it's all I ask of anyone, really, and something I'll do for everyone and try to do for you. That doesn't mean I agree with them or find them well-supported once I've considered them. Many people disagree with me on many things, without either of us being closed-minded. We simply see the data differently. What I struggle with, in discussing things, especially things related to looks and aesthetics, with you, is that you don't seem to respond to new data at ALL. There is little to no incorporation or acknowledgement of other data.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Well, of course, but I'm approaching this question from the inside of the R, not the outside. There's no point in approaching any R questions from the outside or else we'd all respond with, "Individual couples will work things out as they see fit." I'm not sure the point of distancing yourself from the question that way, especially since it was a "Would you?" question.

 

I’m not sure why you think giving respect to the rights of other couples to make their own choices within their own relationships is a matter of “distancing yourself from the question...”.

 

We’ve gone around this discussion over and over again and the reality is that you and I aren’t going to agree to certain things. I respect your right to conduct your relationship the way you see fit. I certainly disagree with a number of your stances but at the end of the day, for each one of us, it comes down to our personal choices. And when I say that, it’s only to show respect for the right for others to choose what they like.

 

What I’ve seen in this conversation among many of us is a combination of approaching the question by thinking about our own relationships and looking at it from an outside perspective. If this question was only approached from the mindset of simply each of stating what we believed in and leaving it at that, this conversation would have died down a long time ago.

 

 

I was illustrating a point, in the manner in which this issue reflects a deeper incompatibility in human sexuality and asking someone to change their basic sexuality seems above and beyond a simple request in many cases.

 

I fail to see how comparing me to the kind of man you would or wouldn’t date and attempting to turn my personal beliefs into a matter of my “hang-ups” says anything about incompatibility between people. I don’t enjoy when you use me as examples to make your points especially since I don’t pull that with you. I think you are intelligent enough to state your case without having to drag me into making whatever point it is you want to make.

 

Now I'm not suggesting that requires associating porn itself with your basic sexuality, but rather the openness and right to decide for yourself, rather than be dictated to by a partner, what your sexuality is.

 

I don’t remember anyone ever advocating for dictation!

 

Further, your comments above seem to reflect the same things I’ve said several times myself. That it comes down to each couple to decide for themselves what works. How is what I said different from your comment above which pretty much reflects the same mentality? How is it that by me saying this, I am attempting to “distance” myself from the question but you making this point isn’t?

 

It was describing how different mindsets could be incompatible. I don't know why that offends you -- I have tried to describe it more abstractly than this, and you've missed it (abstractions are hard to discuss), so I tried a concrete illustration, using a mindset you've professed.

 

 

Please stop telling me what I’ve looked at, what I’ve missed, that I am this and that. I have missed nothing in this discussion. I think that you were very clear when you said:

 

I was illustrating a point, in the manner in which this issue reflects a deeper incompatibility in human sexuality and asking someone to change their basic sexuality seems above and beyond a simple request in many cases.

 

I do not need to be drug into your examples. I would prefer that you not use me that way. Thank you for respecting my boundries in this regard.

 

You said you had issues relating to porn. To me, issues and hang ups are interchangeable synonyms. I was just re-stating what you had said.

 

Well you aren't re-stating what I said because I don't think issues and hang-ups are interchangable. I think there are variations to their meanings that put the line of thought out of context in my opinion.

 

At any rate, if we're all just going to sit around with our personal beliefs, saying that challenging a personal belief is 'wrong' in some way, what is the purpose of discussion?

 

You tell me since you’ve used that phrase yourself. You said:

 

Now I'm not suggesting that requires associating porn itself with your basic sexuality, but rather the openness and right to decide for yourself, rather than be dictated to by a partner, what your sexuality is.

 

This isn’t that far removed from what I’ve said that you are making a case of.

 

I did not suggest they were but created a 2nd subset for insecurity, different from the mindset I see you've presented. That is why it's in a new paragraph.

 

Cool. I thought you were since insecurity was the only thing you mentioned. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Sure, but I think those areas need to be approached by mutual agreement....

 

Have I not said the same thing? Is not saying that it’s up to each couple infact saying that these areas need to be approached from both sides for mutual agreement? Isn't that basically the same thing?

 

 

...not by one partner expecting some change from the other or holding the other accountable for his/her every thought or fantasy. But, of course, Rs are learning experiences; however, they are cooperative learning experiences, not experiences where one tries to teach or preach at the other or change the other for their own sake.

 

And who is “teaching” and “preaching” to the other? The one that wants to make a case because they think porn is fine or the one that wants to make a case because they don’t think porn is fine? Or is it possible that both can approach it without either one wanting to make it about “teaching” or “preaching” while stating their individual sides and coming to whatever conclusion they may want to come to? I think that can be done.

 

I don't see how someone who is asked to change has any potential to be controlling in THAT situation.

 

Control can manifest itself in many different ways. Stubborness can be a form of control. Anger can be a form of control. Even positive re-enforcement can be a form of control. This does not mean that all stubborness, anger or positive re-enforcement are only means to control. It really comes down to a person’s intention. So I don’t think it’s really a qualfieid statement to make that asking for something is automatically controlling. I think the possibility of control can always exist for both sides if the intention is already there. Refusing to do something can be just as controlling as someone asking someone to do something. That's the best way I know how to explain it.

 

They either assert themselves or be controlled. It would take an introduction of a new variable for them to be controlling, perhaps something like SD described above, "I'll give up porn if we have sex every day." Then there are two controlling people, negotiating based on variables they want to control. But the other person doesn't stop being controlling; they just introduce a dynamic that becomes about control.

 

“I’ll give up porn if we have sex every day” might be about control, or it might be about compromise. Or it might be about bargaining. I’ve said to boyfriends before, “I will make dinner if you do the shopping”. I hate grocery shopping but I don’t mind cooking. If we are both happy with this situation, I fail to see how making that kind of bargin is automatically equated to being controlling.

 

 

Now that's not the same as asking --- xxoo's magazine example is good there --- a partner to do something for you, without expectation or coercion, and with acceptance of the partner's right to do what he/she wants and reasons for doing it. I think in that case, on many things,

 

As I said before. I don’t know xxoo’s magazine examples. This means very little to me. Sorry, I am just not familiar with it.

 

 

MOST people will be happy to make compromises and sacrifices, but they have to be allowed to make the choice themselves and be given a good reason to do so.

 

I don’t have to be given good reasons to make compromises or sacrifices for the people I love. I do them because I love someone. Not because I am thinking about what benefits me first. That is the nature of a compromise or sacrifice to begin with.

 

I have brought nothing from your personal life onto this board and am only reacting to the words, opinions, and views you have shared with us, illustrating what you said that made me think that, etc.

 

I didn’t say you brought things from my personal life into this board. What I did say is you make personal and attacking (although I spelled it attaching) negative things toward me in an attempt to push negatives things on me that are simply untrue. And no, you are not illustrating things I’ve said at all. Please stop blaming me for the words you decide to use to make up negative things about me.

 

The reason I must use labels is that all words and descriptions are labels to some degree.

 

You are the only person I know that "must" use labels.

 

Please take accountability for the words you choose to use that are clearly negative commentaries on the people you have hypothesized in your head about who you think they are.

 

Why must you attempt to control communication beyond the TOS by trying to tell people special ways to talk to you? I did not call you any names -- I merely outlined my impression of your viewpoint, which you have shared on this topic.

 

I never said you called me names. I said that you foster negative and untrue comments about me as a person and who you think I am, that are completely wrong and do not accurately express my viewpoints at all. You don't always ask me things to make more clear, you dictate them as if your beliefs about me are personal truths of me.

 

Further, I have not asked you to talk "special" to me. I have never had to defend myself against anyone here as much as I’ve had to against you lately. Other people are able to have dialogues without making personal commentary on an individual poster. I can come up with a huge list of things you’ve told me I am or thought or did or said and I have not. All I have done is asked you to leave off the negative derailment.

 

To be clear, I do not think it is that much about beliefs at all, really. I have no problem with your beliefs, except that when challenged, you simply refer to them as your beliefs. When shown pictures of women who look very different from each other, you still continue to say there's a "porn star look" and don't even remember the pictures. You barely responded, in that thread, to the pics joystick and TW added for your benefit. That hardly seems open-minded to me. That's just one example.

 

How many times do you want to call me close-minded in a thread Zengirl? What more do you want me to say regarding this? I’ve said my peace on the ridiculousness of you perpetually turning some part of your discussion into telling me I am this or that. It’s ridiculous. You don’t get to continually bombard me with accusations of close-mindedness. Sorry. It’s not right.

 

This entire discussion is about beliefs. And no, I don’t simply say “that’s my belief”. I do well in explaining myself the best I can. But when you repeatedly come back at me over and over and over again with the same comments, and I repeatedly respond over and over and over again with the same comments. And we talk at each other, I finally have to draw a line somewhere.

 

Just as you continue to laminate on the who “pictures of women looking different” thing. You see it differently from me. I can acknowledge we see it differently. You turn the fact that I see it differently into it equating me as someone who is close minded. I don’t get how you being so open minded, gets to continually tell someone else they are simply close minded when you admit you don’t even understand their position to begin with.

 

I see many commonalities among the women that regularly get posted the most. Few person here won't get an image in their head when you say “porn-star". This is why I don't think the women are all that different from each other. They might have difference faces, hair color and measurements, but they are all pretty sterotypically standard.

 

When shown pictures of women who look very different from each other, you still continue to say there's a "porn star look" and don't even remember the pictures. You barely responded, in that thread, to the pics joystick and TW added for your benefit. That hardly seems open-minded to me. That's just one example.

 

What thread did this happen in? Please post a link so I can see what you are talking about. I appreciate it. If you are going to bring up other threads to make accusations about me in in this thread, showing some proof would be helpful. I take issue with you now making personal accusations about ways you think I behaved in other threads to talk in this one!

 

I am not here to "defend" myself to you about what you consider to be my lack of open-mindedness. I am not on trial. We are here to share our personal opinions and your opinion is not more open minded then mine. They are different.

 

Sure, it does. Open-mindedness isn't about seeing all views as equal; it's about accepting new information into your viewpoint and being able to integrate that. Before those pics were posted, I honestly had no idea if there was a "porn star" look. As the guys posted those pictures, I took that new information into consideration. I do this, in general, with all posts.

 

Oh I certainly think a portion of open-mindedness certainly is about seeing all views as equal. But this is not the only way someone can be open-minded. I don't really get your self accolades about "new" information and your ability to process it, whatever that means vs what you think is an inability for others to process it, again, whatever that means. I find this conversation silly.

 

With the body builder post, I noted I may have used the wrong word when you added the distinction - I probably did, but clarified why I had done so.

 

I don't see where you said you used the wrong word. Perhaps you can help me out and point out where you did that.

 

 

That is incorporating and accepting new information, and it's all I ask of anyone, really, and something I'll do for everyone and try to do for you.

 

What I think is really going on is that you want me to see information the same way you see it and because I don't, paricularly with the examples of women posted, you dislike the fact that I don't think the examples used where great examples in "variations" of things men like. I'm all for new information. But I don't see how a few guys on a message board posting a few pictures of ladies they think are hot is A)"new" information that should sway you or me from our own standpoints and B) considered significant enough information to adopt someone else's viewpoint. It's not like we are talking about "new information" on the scale of scientific discovery or data and statistics.

 

 

What I struggle with, in discussing things, especially things related to looks and aesthetics, with you, is that you don't seem to respond to new data at ALL. There is little to no incorporation or acknowledgement of other data.

 

Considering the fact that I've said several times now that when I saw the pictures of the type of women the men posted, and I evaluated those pictures for myself and came to the conclusion that they do infact fit into a stereotyped ideal I've seen many times before, I have no clue how you equate that to not responding to "new data". And I am sorry but I think it's really off for you to continually make assumptiosn about the information I am processing, or rather the information you don't think I am processing because you don't agree with my view point. I have repeatedly acknowledged and incorporated the pictures the guys posted and I have respeatedly told you my conclusion based on this date. The reality is you simply don't like my response so you entirely ignore it all together and resort to shaming me and attempting to insinuate that I am close minded.

[zengirl]

I’m not sure why you think giving respect to the rights of other couples to make their own choices within their own relationships is a matter of “distancing yourself from the question...”.

 

I said exactly why I think it's distancing yourself from the question. I'm not saying it's bad to respect the rights of other couples -- I'm saying everyone does, so it's useless to discuss. We're discussing what we'd do and want and allow, in the hypothetical context of our interactions in Rs. Just look at the title of the thread! I'm also not suggesting, at any point, that you and I need to agree, so I'm not sure why you keep saying we aren't going to agree. That's totally fine with me. I am going to elaborate on my disagreement if you say something I disagree with, especially if I find logical fault with it or feel you're side-stepping a question, but that's just natural debate behavior, not me trying to get you to agree with me. I'm aware that your opinions on this subject have pretty much a 0% chance of changing.

 

I respect your right to conduct your relationship the way you see fit.

 

Yes, and I respect your right to conduct your R as you see fit, but that really has no point in this discussion in my view, for reasons I've already stated ad nauseum. We're debating a POV, not talking about whether we'd actually interfere in anyone else's R.

 

If your whole POV was "Every couple should choose for themselves" (which it isn't, based on everything you've ever said on the subject, that's just your fall back when someone disagrees with you to try to end the disagreement) then there'd be no need for you to write so much on the subject, would there? I just find that to be pointless. Yes, of course, we all respect the rights of couples to choose for themselves, but that's not really crucial to the discussion - it's fine as an aside. And, no, you and I don't disagree that couples should choose for themselves.

 

Please stop telling me what I’ve looked at, what I’ve missed, that I am this and that. I have missed nothing in this discussion. I think that you were very clear when you said:

 

Oh, goodness, you SAID you missed those pictures! At any rate, most of the rest of your post is language-policing. Again. I will speak to you within the framework of the TOS and with what I consider basic respect, but I will not follow all your self-made rules about how to speak. I will simply not be controlled in that manner. Sorry.

 

Now I'm not suggesting that requires associating porn itself with your basic sexuality, but rather the openness and right to decide for yourself, rather than be dictated to by a partner, what your sexuality is.

 

This isn’t that far removed from what I’ve said that you are making a case of.

 

Clearly, I think it is. You're welcome to tell me why you think it's similar to your POV on the issues of porn.

 

Where you and I disagree on porn is very clear: You feel it is a social issue and a problem, and I feel that is a shaming statement. You can feel free to tell me if that's wrong and if you have no issues with porn that are not personal and do not apply directly to ONLY your own Rs and have no problem with other people using it and don't see any social ills in that.

 

At any rate, of course we do not differ in saying couples can determine it for themselves without the help of either you or I. That's something so obvious it could go unsaid, IMO.

 

Refusing to do something can be just as controlling as someone asking someone to do something. That's the best way I know how to explain it.

 

Not really unless you were to bring up your refusal to do something first. If you're just doing what you always did, you're not attempting to control the other person, only retain autonomy and self-control. I see no way you've attempted in any way to control the other person in that scenario. Feel free to paint me a picture of how that could work with an example.

 

As I said before. I don’t know xxoo’s magazine examples. This means very little to me. Sorry, I am just not familiar with it.

 

Well, it is in this thread, where you claim not to have missed anything, so now I'm confused.

 

You are the only person I know that "must" use labels.

 

You have used plenty of labels to speak to me as well, in my view. I simply take no offense of it. And you certainly have used labels towards this subject.

 

Please take accountability for the words you choose to use that are clearly negative commentaries on the people you have hypothesized in your head about who you think they are.

 

You don't always ask me things to make more clear, you dictate them as if your beliefs about me are personal truths of me.

 

I take full accountability for my words, but not for your reaction to my words. You must take your own accountability for your own feelings and reactions. As I said above, I'll follow the TOS. No more, no less. I will not follow your arbitrary rules.

 

I react to what I see. You are welcome to clarify, and I constantly invite you to do so. You have chosen not to do so thus far, even not answering many simple questions I've put to you. I will not respond to any more comments like this, though, and only your points on the issues as comments about my speech are OT and derailing the thread. You don't get to tell me how to write my commentary. You are free to rebut anything you see as wrong, though if you rebut it by just saying, "That's wrong," know that I consider that a poor argument without elaboration or defense.

 

Just as you continue to laminate on the who “pictures of women looking different” thing. You see it differently from me.

 

You said you never saw the pictures in that thread, so how can we see it differently? You didn't see it at all. I can't post a link (your question below) at the moment but it's the stickied Porn thread.

 

Oh I certainly think a portion of open-mindedness certainly is about seeing all views as equal.

 

I disagree. To me, that is a Cable News version of seeing the world where differing viewpoints get equal time, no matter their validity. That is ludicrous to me and makes no sense. I do not see views that are illogical and poorly defended as equal to views that are logical and well-defended. I also see nothing in the definition of the word 'open-minded' that would call me to do so but would rather only call me to evaluate each view on its own merits. Many views have no merits or less merits than others.

 

What I think is really going on is that you want me to see information the same way you see it

 

You're incorrect. I honestly can't care less about agreement. I just don't like it when people profess strong views and then attempt to back away from them or agree to disagree or try to get me to see their beliefs as equally valid, without a logical argument.

 

ETA: DY, You seem not to want to debate the issue any longer, and I'm sure you'll respond, but I'll let you know now. I'm done with responding to you on this chain because you're no longer making it about the issue at hand, and I'm not interested in going round and round. Feel free to provide clarifications to the questions I asked.

Edited July 12, 2012 by zengirl

[Radu]

If all the energy spent in this thread were to be used in curing Cancer, we would have a cure now.

[joystickd]

Why is there an intense need to change someone? If you know what they do then you can either accept it or leave. They may change but since you are forcing them depending on the person it may come back to bite you in the a$$. It would be like me being with a woman I knew was sleeping around while with me. If I said "If you loved me you would stop sleeping with other men" how would she feel if I knew from the beginning what I was getting into. I feel like if you know about it from the beginning and want to change something then you are treading into becoming controlling.