Would you give up porn if your loved one asked?

[pink_sugar]

Never really got much out of porn myself. It's too fake for me to get anything out of it. Maybe I just haven't watched the right ones or what, but it's just too exaggerated and fake for me.

[Radu]

Why is there an intense need to change someone? If you know what they do then you can either accept it or leave. They may change but since you are forcing them depending on the person it may come back to bite you in the a$$. It would be like me being with a woman I knew was sleeping around while with me. If I said "If you loved me you would stop sleeping with other men" how would she feel if I knew from the beginning what I was getting into. I feel like if you know about it from the beginning and want to change something then you are treading into becoming controlling.

 

Power fantasy, how many women have you heard with dreams of 'changing that guy' ?

 

Never really got much out of porn myself. It's too fake for me to get anything out of it. Maybe I just haven't watched the right ones or what, but it's just too exaggerated and fake for me.

 

There is porn for women out there, directed by women.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I said exactly why I think it's distancing yourself from the question.

 

You really haven’t. You claimed I was distancing myself from the question because I said that at the end of the day, it’s up to the couple. Yet when you make this kind of comment, you never attached the thought process that *you* were distancing yourself from the question. You simply pinned that assumption on me. You also didn’t really ask, you just dictated that that was what was occurring with no real logical standpoint behind it.

 

I'm not saying it's bad to respect the rights of other couples --

 

I know you’re not.

 

I'm saying everyone does, so it's useless to discuss.

 

So you and I just had cornucopias amounts of exchanges in the history of LS because it was useless?

 

We're discussing what we'd do and want and allow, in the hypothetical context of our interactions in Rs. Just look at the title of the thread!

 

I'm aware of the title of the thread. Has your discussion simply focused purely on what you do in your relationships? Or has it bounced around a bit between generalities and tying in what you do within your relationships?

 

 

I'm also not suggesting, at any point, that you and I need to agree, so I'm not sure why you keep saying we aren't going to agree.

 

Because you dogmatically pursue my opinion even when I’ve responded to your questions. And when you don’t like the responses you get, you attempt to say that I didn’t address what you said. I offends me. I don’t think you spend all this time debating with me because I don’t answer your responses. You pursue a debate with me then you repeatedly put me down and claim I’m not even addressing things you said when I am. No one talks this much with someone that isn't holding a conversation with them.

 

That's totally fine with me. I am going to elaborate on my disagreement if you say something I disagree with, especially if I find logical fault with it or feel you're side-stepping a question, but that's just natural debate behavior, not me trying to get you to agree with me.

 

Tthe nature of debate is that we all find “logical fault” with one another. The good thing about logic that it doesn’t just go one way. And the truth of it all is that neither of our responses are purely about logic 100%. They are a combination of our personal experiences, who we are, facts and data we have personally collected, how we digest and register those facts and data that formulate our opinions. If you think you are the only one in the mist of a debate that finds “logical fault” with comments, you are not. I just don’t feel the need to claim that your “logic” is a “fault”.

 

I'm aware that your opinions on this subject have pretty much a 0% chance of changing.

 

Just as I am aware that your opinions on this subject have pretty much a 0% chance of changing.

 

Yes, and I respect your right to conduct your R as you see fit, but that really has no point in this discussion in my view, for reasons I've already stated ad nauseum. We're debating a POV, not talking about whether we'd actually interfere in anyone else's R.

 

It is mearly a way to show respect for you Zengirl. Are you really complaining because my comment is meant to show respect for your opinion? Good Lord.

 

And yet, when I state my reasons for something ad nauseam, you can not accept that and dogmatically pursue it with the same redundant and tired arguments.

 

If your whole POV was "Every couple should choose for themselves" (which it isn't, based on everything you've ever said on the subject, that's just your fall back when someone disagrees with you to try to end the disagreement)

 

It’s my fall back when I’ve said everything I can say on the matter and the poster, in this case you, ignore what is being said to you in order to repeat yourself over and over again and ask the same question over and over again despite having received the answer you were seeking.

 

 

.. then there'd be no need for you to write so much on the subject, would there? I just find that to be pointless. Yes, of course, we all respect the rights of couples to choose for themselves, but that's not really crucial to the discussion - it's fine as an aside. And, no, you and I don't disagree that couples should choose for themselves.

 

I don’t find showing respect for others or their opinions to be pointless at all. And yes, I think articulating my respect for you to make the choices you want to make is crucial to the discussion before I get blamed for telling others how to conduct their relationships. Which is something I have been blamed for in the past with conversations among a few posters here. I just say it so you are aware that I am respecting yoru boundries. If you really want to complain about that, go ahead. I will continue to show respect for you even if you dislike it.

 

 

Oh, goodness, you SAID you missed those pictures!

 

No! I didn’t say I missed those pictures! I don’t even think you read what I write sometimes. I said that I went back into that thread to look at the pictures and I couldn’t find them. But before that I totally acknowledged that I had seen those pictures! It’s been several weeks since those pictures were posted and since we are making different arguments, I wanted to see if I could find those pictures to look at AGAIN to refresh my memory in case there was something I wasn’t seeing

 

 

At any rate, most of the rest of your post is language-policing. Again. I will speak to you within the framework of the TOS and with what I consider basic respect, but I will not follow all your self-made rules about how to speak. I will simply not be controlled in that manner. Sorry.

 

Language-policing is not requestion someone not drag you into their examples or repeatedly bombard you with negative characterizations of close mindedness.

 

Clearly, I think it is. You're welcome to tell me why you think it's similar to your POV on the issues of porn.

 

I didn’t say it was simliar to my POV of porn issues. You said:

 

Now I'm not suggesting that requires associating porn itself with your basic sexuality, but rather the openness and right to decide for yourself, rather than be dictated to by a partner, what your sexuality is.

 

Please see the bolded part for what I am referring to you. You complained that I was “distancing” myself from the question by it being up to each person to decide for themselves, yet when you make the same argument it’s okay.

 

Where you and I disagree on porn is very clear: You feel it is a social issue and a problem, and I feel that is a shaming statement. You can feel free to tell me if that's wrong and if you have no issues with porn that are not personal and do not apply directly to ONLY your own Rs and have no problem with other people using it and don't see any social ills in that.

 

I never claimed that I had no issues with porn or that I didn’t forsee problems with people using porn. I never once claimed such a thing.

 

And if you think my commentary that porn is a social issue and problem, and that for me to hold that opinion is equating to "shaming", then you must believe any issue someone has with the USA, where they believe something to be a social issue and problem, is also "shaming". So apparently, no one is allowed to have any issues or problems with thigns they believe reflect negatively on society. I don't see how that thought process makes sense, but if you believe me to be making a "shaming" statement because of my beliefs about porn, then you would have to believe anyone that disagrees with some social issue and things it has negative affects is also "shaming".

 

At any rate, of course we do not differ in saying couples can determine it for themselves without the help of either you or I. That's something so obvious it could go unsaid, IMO.

 

And yet, it’s okay for you to say it but when I say it, it’s a federal case for you.

 

 

Not really unless you were to bring up your refusal to do something first. If you're just doing what you always did, you're not attempting to control the other person, only retain autonomy and self-control. I see no way you've attempted in any way to control the other person in that scenario. Feel free to paint me a picture of how that could work with an example.

 

I’ve done my best to explain my viewpoint on this. I think whatever pictures I painted for you would be met with strict refusal to accept anything I’ve said since this is your general response to absolutely anything I say. This ties into our lack of sincerity within our discussions.

 

I believe that two people have the potential to both be controlling if they are both pushing for their own side and refusing to work it out. It’s really that simply that I don’t even think a picture should need to be painted regarding it to understand. It's really not a difficult concept to understand.

 

Well, it is in this thread, where you claim not to have missed anything, so now I'm confused.

 

I did not claim I didn’t miss everything in the entire thread. Do not take words out of context within our conversation and apply them to other posters. Your comment about me missing things had nothing to do with xxoo. That comment was attached to a different point you were attempting to make that I refuted.

 

 

You have used plenty of labels to speak to me as well, in my view. I simply take no offense of it. And you certainly have used labels towards this subject.

 

I repeat, you are the only person I know that “must” use labels. Don’t turn your inability to not make personal swipes at people and deflect. Show me what things I have labeled you with and I can return the favor on the things you’ve labeled me with. Then we will see how it compares.

 

I take full accountability for my words, but not for your reaction to my words. You must take your own accountability for your own feelings and reactions. As I said above, I'll follow the TOS. No more, no less. I will not follow your arbitrary rules.

 

I do take accountability for my feelings and reactions. I have said in many discussions I am not perfect and sometimes these things get the best of me. I do the best I can and I think I am unnecessarily picked on in ways that you, and a few other posters, don’t do to others. I have offered olive branches to other posters several times and they have been flat out ignored. But I have always been honest about the fact that I don’t always get it right and I own up to it and have apologized for those moments. I however have not behaved out of line with you in this thread. I’ve kept my cool when you’ve throw around comments about my character or my level of intelligence.

 

 

I react to what I see.

 

React being the key word then.

 

 

You are welcome to clarify, and I constantly invite you to do so. You have chosen not to do so thus far, even not answering many simple questions I've put to you.

 

I clarify very well with you. However, you consistently ignore things I say then come back around and repeat your questions and remarks over and over again. I have answered so many of your questions and I really find it offensive how often you dictate to me that I haven’t. This ties into why I believe you do not want a sincere conversation. We have not written huge posts back and forth to each other because I don’t answer questions.

 

 

You are free to rebut anything you see as wrong, though if you rebut it by just saying, "That's wrong," know that I consider that a poor argument without elaboration or defense.

 

I'll keep that in mind when you repeatedly talk about how I don’t answer your questions with no further elaboration. I feel much the same way you do about those kind of comments as you do when I say “that’s wrong”. That you made a very poor argument and defense and infact, make absolutely no argument or defense except to repeatedly say I didn't do something with no real proof that what you say is true.

 

 

You said you never saw the pictures in that thread, so how can we see it differently? You didn't see it at all. I can't post a link (your question below) at the moment but it's the stickied Porn thread.

 

THis is explained above for you. Very early on in the post.

 

I disagree. To me, that is a Cable News version of seeing the world where differing viewpoints get equal time, no matter their validity. That is ludicrous to me and makes no sense. I do not see views that are illogical and poorly defended as equal to views that are logical and well-defended. I also see nothing in the definition of the word 'open-minded' that would call me to do so but would rather only call me to evaluate each view on its own merits. Many views have no merits or less merits than others.

 

Who said anything about illogical or poorly defended views? You do not spend so much time debating with me because you find my views either illogical or poorly defended. That would be pretty illogical on your end if you did. I don’t waste time with posters that I find so illogical and unable to debate because they simply aren’t very challenging to talk to.

 

You're incorrect. I honestly can't care less about agreement. I just don't like it when people profess strong views and then attempt to back away from them ...or agree to disagree or try to get me to see their beliefs as equally valid, without a logical argument.

 

I have never backed away from my views even in some posters attempts to manipulate my comments or attempt to box me in. But my posts speak for themselves in this regard and many posters, while not all agreeing with me, have given me compliments for standing by my points.

 

 

...or agree to disagree or try to get me to see their beliefs as equally valid, without a logical argument.

 

 

Again, you don’t spend so much time debating with me because you believe me to make illogical arguments. If you did, then that would be very illogical on your end. But to throw your own argument back you, simply because you say I back away from my views, doesn’t mean it’s true. I welcome *you* to bring forth any clarification that would help make your case. As it stands, you simply stating it, hardly proves anything.

 

Further, the agree to disagree comments are to just admit that neither you and I are ever going to agree and we both could go on endlessly disagreeing with one another! I find it ridiculous that you take issue with this. Even when you’ve said the same thing yourself! Then again, you take a particular issue with everything i say that is actually pretty flattering.

 

 

ETA: DY, You seem not to want to debate the issue any longer, and I'm sure you'll respond, but I'll let you know now. I'm done with responding to you on this chain because you're no longer making it about the issue at hand, and I'm not interested in going round and round. Feel free to provide clarifications to the questions I asked.

 

Zengirl, It’s not about not wanting to debate the issue. It’s this circular nonsense and put downs you throw my way that gets old. You accuse me of things you don’t take responsibility with. I do my best to put my responses down to you down and all you can come up with in response is that I didn’t say anything. That’s not good logical debating. That’s ignoring what one side is telling you in favor of trying to close the debate down yourself by ignoring what’s being said to you.

 

I’d love to see you provide some better clarification for your own comments but all that happens is a this circular turn around. And as much as you dogmatically pursue me and my comments, you also attempt to shut me down with “you didn’t say anything” comments that make absolutely no sense. I have had really great productive conversations on this board with a number of posters. This conversation between us as neither been great or very productive.

[123321]

The photos I looked at were beautiful.

 

I agree for the most part although some are pretty out there.

 

 

In a perfect world, lots of things would be sorted out between couples before they got serious. But that doesn't always happen. Relationships and love aren't always that rational in my experience.

 

I was mistaken, there are two core issues to address there.

[Robert Z]

Saw a nice but really dirty SUV today. It was covered with dust or dirt, probably from going off road.

 

Written into the dust on the rear window was "I wish my wife was this dirty!"

 

That was good and it made me lol. So as I passed I gave him a big thumbs up... only to realize that the wife was driving. So I guess I sent the wrong message.

[Radu]

Saw a nice but really dirty SUV today. It was covered with dust or dirt, probably from going off road.

 

Written into the dust on the rear window was "I wish my wife was this dirty!"

 

That was good and it made me lol. So as I passed I gave him a big thumbs up... only to realize that the wife was driving. So I guess I sent the wrong message.

 

Or the right one !

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Saw a nice but really dirty SUV today. It was covered with dust or dirt, probably from going off road.

 

Written into the dust on the rear window was "I wish my wife was this dirty!"

 

That was good and it made me lol. So as I passed I gave him a big thumbs up... only to realize that the wife was driving. So I guess I sent the wrong message.

 

Would you have laughed if instead on the car was written, "I wish my husband made more money so I didn't have to drive this piece of junk"?

[somedude81]

Would you have laughed if instead on the car was written, "I wish my husband made more money so I didn't have to drive this piece of junk"?

And this is why so few women are comedians.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

And this is why so few women are comedians.

 

I wasn't trying to be a comedian.

 

And the idea that women are missing something that makes then unable to be funny would be like telling a man that he can not be a nurturing as a woman since men aren't stereotypically known as being the "nurturers". Yet I know pleny of men that have kind , tender nurturing sides.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I was mistaken, there are two core issues to address there.

 

Personal slight 123? Feel comforted in the fact that you are simply a better human being then me I guess. For all relationships to be 100% perfect and rational all the time, would mean conflict would never ever come up for any couple. Human beings, women AND men, do not just deal with relationships on a completely rational basis. While rationale factors in, so does emotions. And having emotions doesn't mean someone can't be right either. These two componants make up our humanness.

[somedude81]

I wasn't trying to be a comedian.

Ok, as long as you weren't trying to be funny.

[Ross MwcFan]

Would you have laughed if instead on the car was written, "I wish my husband made more money so I didn't have to drive this piece of junk"?

 

I would of, probably even more than the I wish my wife was this dirty joke.

[Robert Z]

Would you have laughed if instead on the car was written, "I wish my husband made more money so I didn't have to drive this piece of junk"?

 

I may not have laughed but I might have found it amusing. It seems that I may have even seen a similar bumper sticker before.

 

So you are equating a woman's sexuality to a man's ability to make money. Interesting. Should we infer from your logic that men who make lots of money have dirty wives?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I may not have laughed but I might have found it amusing. It seems that I may have even seen a similar bumper sticker before.

 

So you are equating a woman's sexuality to a man's ability to make money. Interesting. Should we infer from your logic that men who make lots of money have dirty wives?

 

Usually men are more sensitive about matters concerning money and women. that's why I've used it as an example. I know a number of men that would have taken offense to that kind of comment about themselves.

[Robert Z]

And this is why so few women are comedians.

 

I saw one hotly dressed comedienne - very nice, sexy dress, high heels, long white gloves, lots of jewels - who was talking about an upcoming diamond shortage. According to her, it was reported we have almost tapped existing supplies and we can't make more. So when they're all mined, that's it.

 

She objected and said that it's easy to make a new diamond. Just jack off an old man! That's why I wear the gloves, she added.

[somedude81]

I saw one hotly dressed comedienne - very nice, sexy dress, high heels, long white gloves, lots of jewels - who was talking about an upcoming diamond shortage. According to her, it was reported we have almost tapped existing supplies and we can't make more. So when they're all mined, that's it.

 

She objected and said that it's easy to make a new diamond. Just jack off an old man! That's why I wear the gloves, she added.

Heh, they are out there

[Robert Z]

Usually men are more sensitive about matters concerning money and women. that's why I've used it as an example. I know a number of men that would have taken offense to that kind of comment about themselves.

 

You can find someone to be offended by anything. It seems to me that this is between him and his wife.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You can find someone to be offended by anything. It seems to me that this is between him and his wife.

 

I agree it is between them but we are talking about in the context of outsiders and our own presonal feelings on the "joke".

[Robert Z]

I agree it is between them but we are talking about in the context of outsiders and our own presonal feelings on the "joke".

 

Okay, fair enough. Why do you find it offensive? What specifically bothers you about the joke?

[123321]

Human beings, women AND men, do not just deal with relationships on a completely rational basis.

 

Or life at all I suppose. You seem to be saying that sometimes one who hates porn might get so involved with a guy who enjoys porn that before they realize it that the only option would be for the person who uses porn to give it up.

 

So in the spirit of that ridiculous concept I have to ask, would you learn to accept porn if your loved one asked?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Okay, fair enough. Why do you find it offensive? What specifically bothers you about the joke?

 

I think it's a derogatory thing to say about one's own wife. My guess is the guy who wrote that never actually says that to his wife's face. Because what wife would enjoy that being advertised on a dirty car.

 

Thank you for asking me though even though you disagree with me!

 

Why don't you think it's offensive?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Or life at all I suppose. You seem to be saying that sometimes one who hates porn might get so involved with a guy who enjoys porn that before they realize it that the only option would be for the person who uses porn to give it up.

 

No, I'm not trying to say that is the "only" option. There are many options. It might be the only options for me though.

 

 

So in the spirit of that ridiculous concept I have to ask, would you learn to accept porn if your loved one asked?

 

I really would find it hard to connect emotionally and intimately with someone that couldn't give up porn or needed it in their lives. It wouldn't create the space I would need to feel truly open and vulernable with that man. I don't want to be in a relationship where he is picking porn sometimes and then picking me other times and using both me and the porn interchangably. That's how most men seem to use their porn in relation to their real life relationships. It's not about real woman or real sex being better so much as it just different then having the porn and variety that comes with the porn. I don't really think most guys can spread themselves that thin and still be there in their relationships with one woman 100%.

[123321]

I really would find it hard to connect emotionally and intimately with someone that couldn't give up porn or needed it in their lives. It wouldn't create the space I would need to feel truly open and vulernable with that man.

 

Much as a lot of men would resent the heck out of being required to change to fit into your idea of what an ideal man should behave like. Huh. People really are people after all.

[Robert Z]

I think it's a derogatory thing to say about one's own wife.

 

Again, why? He didn't say he has a dirty wife. He said he wishes he had a dirty wife. If he had something something like my wife gives great bjs, I could understand.

 

Is it just a matter of going public with something you think is private, even if intended as a joke?

 

My guess is the guy who wrote that never actually says that to his wife's face. Because what wife would enjoy that being advertised on a dirty car.

 

I think you forgot that the wife [apparently the wife] was driving. So either she knew it was there or she was set up. If she did know about it, it wouldn't have taken a but a moment to wipe it off.

[somedude81]

I'm wondering how the conversation would come up.

 

Porn is something I do in my private time.

 

If I lived with a woman, I certainly wouldn't look at porn and jerk off when she's home.

 

So what is she going to do? "Honey, do you watch porn? Because if you do, I want you to stop."

 

All she'd get in return is this