denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Why wouldn't you want to live in that society? Japan has a more suicide-friendly society than the West, and they seem fine (as fine as the US is, anyway.) In what way are they fine with their suicide practices? Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Well nobody here would have any idea if I went through with it, and people in my real life wouldn't care for longer than 5 seconds, if that, so.... no. I am just really confused and fascinated by this whole "it's selfish" thing. I do not understand why people say that, so I thought I'd ask. Where do you think the pain goes? It doesn't just disappear when you go, you pass it on. It's your legacy, your parting gift to those that know you. Something those that care about you will carry to their graves. It's a failure of the test, it's a cheat, it's ingratitude, it's a lack of appreciation, it's cowardice, it's self pity, it's a momentary inability to think or care about others. It's thinking of the self and only the self. You can sugarcoat that into another term, phrase or diagnosis and it will sound more excusable, but it's just another word. It can also be understandable and forgiveable. Why do you think so poorly of those around you? Why do you look upon them with such contempt and disdain that you believe they wouldn't care for more than 5 seconds? 3 Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 In what way are they fine with their suicide practices? I meant to add, but was too late: I don't know much about Japan at all, but the stories I have read there about suicides have been pretty tragic, so it's not something I would argue for up scaling. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 In what way are they fine with their suicide practices? There's a historic tradition of suicide, and "jumpers" are pretty common. When I was living there, a fifteen year old high school student threw herself in front of a train a few stops away, and no one even blinked an eye. I once opened up an English note book for grading, and the back page was nothing but the kanji for "die", over and over again. I showed it to my fellow teachers, whose response was a shrug and "Ah, yes. She doesn't have many friends." Suicide just doesn't seem to be that large of a concern among normal people. Why would you not want to live in a society that OK'ed suicide? Where do you think the pain goes? It doesn't just disappear when you go, you pass it on. It's your legacy, your parting gift to those that know you. Something those that care about you will carry to their graves. It's a failure of the test, it's a cheat, it's ingratitude, it's a lack of appreciation, it's cowardice, it's self pity, it's a momentary inability to think or care about others. It's thinking of the self and only the self. You can sugarcoat that into another term, phrase or diagnosis and it will sound more excusable, but it's just another word. It can also be understandable and forgiveable. Why do you think so poorly of those around you? Why do you look upon them with such contempt and disdain that you believe they wouldn't care for more than 5 seconds? Let's say that there wasn't anyone to pass the pain onto. The person had no family or friends. Or, the friends wouldn't care... like, genuinely would not care. Then what? Is it still "caring" about others if others wouldn't be effected? Is the only reason we label suicide "selfish" because of other people? If other people are not a factor, why is it still selfish? Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Forcing someone to live who is suffering so badly that they'd rather be dead, and they will be like this for the rest of their lives or the majority of their lives, is undeniably cruel and abhorrent. It is. It still doesn't mean suicide is not a selfish act, though. Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There's a historic tradition of suicide, and "jumpers" are pretty common. When I was living there, a fifteen year old high school student threw herself in front of a train a few stops away, and no one even blinked an eye. I once opened up an English note book for grading, and the back page was nothing but the kanji for "die", over and over again. I showed it to my fellow teachers, whose response was a shrug and "Ah, yes. She doesn't have many friends." Suicide just doesn't seem to be that large of a concern among normal people. Why would you not want to live in a society that OK'ed suicide? If that fifteen year old or the student were your children, would you think it's OK that no one blinked, or that it was a good thing that suicide was a societally acceptable option available for kids growing up? I don't want my children growing up that way. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 It is. It still doesn't mean suicide is not a selfish act, though. And if the suicide did not effect other people... why is it selfish then? Why is someone doing something with their own body selfish? It's their body, not mine. Do I get to say that the fat person sitting next to me eating a cheeseburger is selfish, because them ingesting an unhealthy food is somewhere down the line gonna effect me? (Insurance premiums, or so the fat-shaming people claim.) At one point do we allow autonomy for individual bodies? Where's the line? If that fifteen year old or the student were your children, would you think it's OK that no one blinked, or that it was a good thing that suicide was a societally acceptable option available for kids growing up? I don't want my children growing up that way. Well, if I ever had kids, that probably would be their situation, regardless of what society they lived in. As posters say on this board.... life is not fair. Life can be cruel. Sometimes no body really cares. If society doesn't care about someone when they are alive, why does it allow people to care/be judgmental in death? Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Let's say that there wasn't anyone to pass the pain onto. The person had no family or friends. Or, the friends wouldn't care... like, genuinely would not care. Then what? Is it still "caring" about others if others wouldn't be effected? Is the only reason we label suicide "selfish" because of other people? If other people are not a factor, why is it still selfish? If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it....... Selfishness is the act of putting yourself and your interests above the interests and concerns of others. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 If a tree falls and nobody nobody is around to hear it....... Selfishness is the act of putting yourself and your interests above the interests and concerns of others. In other words, if no one else has interests/concerns, then it is no longer selfish. So if there is no one in the person's life who their death would effect, then it is a morally justifiable act. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Where do you think the pain goes? It doesn't just disappear when you go, you pass it on. It's your legacy, your parting gift to those that know you. Something those that care about you will carry to their graves. It's a failure of the test, it's a cheat, it's ingratitude, it's a lack of appreciation, it's cowardice, it's self pity, it's a momentary inability to think or care about others. It's thinking of the self and only the self. You can sugarcoat that into another term, phrase or diagnosis and it will sound more excusable, but it's just another word. It can also be understandable and forgiveable. Why do you think so poorly of those around you? Why do you look upon them with such contempt and disdain that you believe they wouldn't care for more than 5 seconds? Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me, I want you to live even though you're in such extreme physical or mental pain that will probably be with you for the rest of your life that you would rather be dead, just so I wont feel sad. Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Well, if I ever had kids, that probably would be their situation, regardless of what society they lived in. As posters say on this board.... life is not fair. Life can be cruel. Sometimes no body really cares. If society doesn't care about someone when they are alive, why does it allow people to care/be judgmental in death? Well, I disagree with that. I think it matters very much what society my children grow up in. The fact that life isn't fair doesn't mean that some was of organising society aren't more or less conducive to well being. I think institutionalising suicide would bring a whole lot more problems than it would solve. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Well, I disagree with that. I think it matters very much what society my children grow up in. The fact that life isn't fair doesn't mean that some was of organising society aren't more or less conducive to well being. I think institutionalising suicide would bring a whole lot more problems than it would solve. Like what sort of problems would it create? I think it'd solve the whole problem of taxing global resources. We wouldn't have as many mentally ill (since there seem to be strong links between mentally ill and genetics.) It'd be ensuring that everyone who was participating in life wanted to be there, instead of feeling obligated or forced because of some strange belief that their death might kinda-sorta hurt someone else's feelings. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me, I want you to live even though you're in such extreme physical or mental pain that will probably be with you for the rest of your life that you would rather be dead, just so I wont feel sad. So my pain will be your pleasure? Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 So my pain will be your pleasure? Is suicide really pleasurable?... But he brings up a good point. Whose concerns should override whose? If it is my body (and thus, my choice what I do with my body), why should your concerns override my decision on what to do with it? Especially since the pain of someone else isn't a guaranteed thing (like my friends and their 5-second mourning period.) If someone else's pain is only a possibility, but my pain is an immediate reality, AND it's my body, why should their concern override mine? Aren't they the ones being selfish then? Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Like what sort of problems would it create? I think it'd solve the whole problem of taxing global resources. We wouldn't have as many mentally ill (since there seem to be strong links between mentally ill and genetics.) It'd be ensuring that everyone who was participating in life wanted to be there, instead of feeling obligated or forced because of some strange belief that their death might kinda-sorta hurt someone else's feelings. Here are some of the problems I think it would cause: For teenagers, I think it would be disastrous. Growing up and establishing your identity is a very volatile period where many are temporarily reliant on a lot of external validation, and where things that are quite small in the large scale of things seem huge. So I think offering that 'option' would cause a lot of unnecessary deaths that in turn would cause a lot of societal devastation. I think a lot of older people who already are worried about being a burden on society might feel 'obliged' to not stick around for longer. I think a lot of people who are having temporary mental health issues but could live perfectly healthy lives if they addressed their problems would disappear. So, I'd rather see an effort addressing the societal issues behind suffering, rather than offering suicide as an option out. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 So my pain will be your pleasure? And a person needing to commit suicide but cannot do because someone else wants them to live can just as easily say 'So my pain will be your pleasure?' If you cared about someone, if your were humaine, if you were compasionate, you would let them go or even help them go, unless their suffering really was temporary and they didn't realise it. Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Why is the idea that someone's death would hurt other people strange? I've only heard that sentence from people wanting to commit suicide, never from anyone affected by it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 It's weird how people will put down animals who are suffering out of compassion, but don't agree with doing the same for humans. Where's the compassion for humans? Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Here are some of the problems I think it would cause: For teenagers, I think it would be disastrous. Growing up and establishing your identity is a very volatile period where many are temporarily reliant on a lot of external validation, and where things that are quite small in the large scale of things seem huge. So I think offering that 'option' would cause a lot of unnecessary deaths that in turn would cause a lot of societal devastation. I think a lot of older people who already are worried about being a burden on society might feel 'obliged' to not stick around for longer. I think a lot of people who are having temporary mental health issues but could live perfectly healthy lives if they addressed their problems would disappear. So, I'd rather see an effort addressing the societal issues behind suffering, rather than offering suicide as an option out. I see your point about the teenage years. That problem could be alleviated by placing age restrictions on "socially acceptable" suicide, could it not? Same for the elderly... more health resources could be put towards helping the teenaged, or the elderly (though I'd probably say that... the elderly probably do have a point about being a burden, and I'm not sure it's fair to restrict them as a group.) Temporary mental health issues... that's why I was asking about markers. If they HAVE tried to address their mental health issues (assuming suicide is always a mental health issue), and still wish to follow through, is that allowable? What if it's not possible to address societal issues behind suffering? What if life is just unfair, and it really, really sucks for some people? Then what? Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Is suicide really pleasurable?... But he brings up a good point. Whose concerns should override whose? If it is my body (and thus, my choice what I do with my body), why should your concerns override my decision on what to do with it? Especially since the pain of someone else isn't a guaranteed thing (like my friends and their 5-second mourning period.) If someone else's pain is only a possibility, but my pain is an immediate reality, AND it's my body, why should their concern override mine? Aren't they the ones being selfish then? Nobody said suicide was pleasurable. The concern for those that care about you is for you. Your concern is also for you. They do not wish to commit an act that will hurt you. They do not wish to put their pain upon you. Can you see the difference? Again, why do you think so poorly of those around you? Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I see your point about the teenage years. That problem could be alleviated by placing age restrictions on "socially acceptable" suicide, could it not? Same for the elderly... more health resources could be put towards helping the teenaged, or the elderly (though I'd probably say that... the elderly probably do have a point about being a burden, and I'm not sure it's fair to restrict them as a group.) Temporary mental health issues... that's why I was asking about markers. If they HAVE tried to address their mental health issues (assuming suicide is always a mental health issue), and still wish to follow through, is that allowable? What if it's not possible to address societal issues behind suffering? What if life is just unfair, and it really, really sucks for some people? Then what? They'll think you should just carry on living for them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Why is the idea that someone's death would hurt other people strange? I've only heard that sentence from people wanting to commit suicide, never from anyone affected by it. Because those people didn't care in life... why would they care in death? Not to make this thread all about my ego or something, but my friends or family can't be bothered in the least to care when I'm breathing. Why would I assume they'd have some drastic change when I'm dead? Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 It's weird how people will put down animals who are suffering out of compassion, but don't agree with doing the same for humans. Where's the compassion for humans? Go back and read Ross. Best do it before I say something that will upset you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Nobody said suicide was pleasurable. The concern for those that care about you is for you. Your concern is also for you. They do not wish to commit an act that will hurt you. They do not wish to put their pain upon you. Can you see the difference? Again, why do you think so poorly of those around you? Well you said trade pain for pleasure, which is where I got the pleasure thing from. Except that by saying someone should stay alive, when their life is nothing but misery and struggle, IS forcing your pain onto them. More accurately, it's making them suffer through life due to the mere potential you might feel a little sad if they leave. How is that fair? I don't think poorly of those around me. They care about plenty of other people.... just not me. It is not "thinking poorly" of people, to think they care about things that are worthwhile, and don't care about things that are worthless. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Go back and read Ross. Best do it before I say something that will upset you. Oh I'm so sorry, excuse me while I cower under the table oh mighty Crusoe. Link to post Share on other sites
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