Is Suicide Ever Justifiable?

[denise_xo]

I see your point about the teenage years. That problem could be alleviated by placing age restrictions on "socially acceptable" suicide, could it not? Same for the elderly... more health resources could be put towards helping the teenaged, or the elderly (though I'd probably say that... the elderly probably do have a point about being a burden, and I'm not sure it's fair to restrict them as a group.)

 

Temporary mental health issues... that's why I was asking about markers. If they HAVE tried to address their mental health issues (assuming suicide is always a mental health issue), and still wish to follow through, is that allowable?

 

What if it's not possible to address societal issues behind suffering? What if life is just unfair, and it really, really sucks for some people? Then what?

 

I don't think age restrictions would really work. Teens try to do what adults do long before they are allowed to. It might work if it wasn't so easy, practically speaking, to kill yourself. But when all you need is a kitchen knife, access is way too open for age limits to work. They can't exactly prosecute you after the fact, sanctions wouldn't work, either.

 

I definitely think more resources should be provided to the elderly, but I don't think suicide should be one of them. When it comes to the elderly in general, I see suicide as a cop out from our responsibilities rather than a constructive contribution.

 

As I said, I think most people who want to kill themselves and don't have any physical ailments have a mental health problem. I understood your point about lifelong mental health issues being very hard on a person. My mother falls into that category and has suffered immensely, both from life circumstances, and inside her own head, so to speak. She is, however, better now than she was thirty years ago. As a minimum, I would want fifteen or twenty years of close monitoring and follow up of someone who should be officially sanctioned to commit suicide. Perhaps that would actually make suicide stats go down.

 

Life definitely sucks and is unfair in general. I have believed that for a along time. At the same time, I think that most of us, myself included, only use about twenty per cent of our own potential for making it a better place, both for ourselves and for others.

[KathyM]

From a Christian perspective, suicide is never justifiable. Our life is a gift from God, and only God has a right to take it away. With that said, I don't think it's against God's will to refuse heroic or artificial measures to prolong life, such as a man in his 80s refusing a heart operation that would mean lengthy, painful recovery. Accepting death through natural means, and not out of neglect, is not against God's will, but taking action to end your life or the life of someone else is wrong.

[denise_xo]

Because those people didn't care in life... why would they care in death? Not to make this thread all about my ego or something, but my friends or family can't be bothered in the least to care when I'm breathing. Why would I assume they'd have some drastic change when I'm dead?

 

Again, it is quite typical that a person who wants to commit suicide doesn't think anyone cares when several people actually would be affected. So in general, that is one area where I don't trust the judgment of a person who wants to commit suicide. I understand that a person might feel that way, and that's a legitimate and important feeling. It's not, however, the equivalent of saying that no one will be negatively affected if that person commits suicide.

[Crusoe]

Oh I'm so sorry, excuse me while I cower under the table oh mighty Crusoe.

 

My wife committed suicide. I was one of the only aid workers to stay in Uganda through Operation North, I was also one of the few in Cambodia. I've known mental and physical pain you can't even imagine. I've got off my a*rse and stood up for what I believe in, regardless of what happens to me. For the last hour I've been trying stay polite to your insults. Quite frankly Ross, under the table is where you belong right now.

[verhrzn]

Again, it is quite typical that a person who wants to commit suicide doesn't think anyone cares when several people actually would be affected. So in general, that is one area where I don't trust the judgment of a person who wants to commit suicide. I understand that a person might feel that way, and that's a legitimate and important feeling. It's not, however, the equivalent of saying that no one will be negatively affected if that person commits suicide.

 

And what if the person is correct? Maybe that's why the person is suicidal... because no one would care. And just because a person is depressed, doesn't necessarily mean their perspective is skewed.

 

Would a reasonable measure, to you, be some sort of signed statement from the person's closest contacts stating that, ya know, it wouldn't bother em that much.

[denise_xo]

And what if the person is correct? Maybe that's why the person is suicidal... because no one would care. And just because a person is depressed, doesn't necessarily mean their perspective is skewed.

 

Would a reasonable measure, to you, be some sort of signed statement from the person's closest contacts stating that, ya know, it wouldn't bother em that much.

 

As I said, I have no reason to believe it is generally correct when uttered by people who want to commit suicide. Also, if they don't have anyone around them who cares, it's perfectly possible that they could find some elsewhere. I was bullied in one school and made lots of friends in another, after we moved. A lot of problems are situation dependent.

 

And no, that kind of statement wouldn't mean anything to me.

[Ross MwcFan]

My wife committed suicide. I was one of the only aid workers to stay in Uganda through Operation North, I was also one of the few in Cambodia. I've known mental and physical pain you can't even imagine. I've got off my a*rse and stood up for what I believe in, regardless of what happens to me. For the last hour I've been trying stay polite to your insults. Quite frankly Ross, under the table is where you belong right now.

 

My insults are justified. Under the table isn't where I belong. Your insults however aren't justified.

[verhrzn]

As I said, I have no reason to believe it is generally correct when uttered by people who want to commit suicide. Also, if they don't have anyone around them who cares, it's perfectly possible that they could find some elsewhere. I was bullied in one school and made lots of friends in another, after we moved. A lot of problems are situation dependent.

 

And no, that kind of statement wouldn't mean anything to me.

 

Except maybe they're suicidal because no body cares. You're arguing that depression makes people see situations in a skewed way. But maybe the person saw the situation clearly, which made them depressed. In the latter case, they'd be correct that no one cares because that is what promoted their suicidal desires.

 

Again, not to be an attention-seeking whore or anything, but sometimes depression/suicide wishes are not situational. I've never had friends who cared about me. I've been in lots of different locations and situations over the past 10 years, and nothing has diminished my suicidal desires. Why? Because no matter what you change around me, I am still me. The common factor in all of these people not caring... is me.

 

Obviously I'm arguing this side of the coin partially due to my own experiences (and being an ego-driven b*tch and all, of course) but it's always seemed deeply patronizing to tell someone what their experiences, and their life, is and should be.

 

Where do we draw the line in terms of autonomy?

[betterdeal]

Are you finding spending a lot of time on LS is enriching your life?

[verhrzn]

Are you finding spending a lot of time on LS is enriching your life?

 

Meh. What else would I be doing with my time? And if I couldn't post here, I'd have nowhere for these thoughts to go, and then I probably would do something drastic. I find that the less able I am to express thoughts like this, the more worked up I get.

 

Not to be a thread-jacking c*nt or anything.

 

Edited: Oh, I see, you're telling me to shut up and go away. See, Denise, I told you some posters would throw a party!

[writergal]

Again, not to be an attention-seeking whore or anything, but sometimes depression/suicide wishes are not situational. I've never had friends who cared about me. I've been in lots of different locations and situations over the past 10 years, and nothing has diminished my suicidal desires. Why? Because no matter what you change around me, I am still me. The common factor in all of these people not caring... is me.

 

Then maybe you have a personality disorder, like narcissistic personality disorder. You are preoccupied with suicide, you need constant attention and validation from posters here, have an obsessive-self interest and have little empathy towards others here. Just my opinion of course because all of your posts (threads that you start, or your responses to others posts) tend to bring the situation back to you. Always you.

 

Obviously I'm arguing this side of the coin partially due to my own experiences ([i]and being an ego-driven b*tch and all[/i], of course) but it's always seemed deeply patronizing to tell someone what their experiences, and their life, is and should be.

 

No one has told you how to live your life. That's your misperception. What posters here have done is to question the validity of the arguments you make and when you can't justify something you've said, you accuse the poster of patronizing you. If you are going to debate a topic, you need to be prepared to defend your argument with evidence, not just personal anecdotes, or possible scenarios from your so-called life. So far people have offered some valid arguments that you attack rather than see the value of, that makes you come across as a close minded person.

 

Your started this thread under the guise of answering the "why" of suicide being justifiable. But that "why" was already addressed in your previous thread. The whole "justifiable" argument is also embedded well in your previous thread about suicide. So I don't view this thread as sharing any new information from you, except from posters who didn't participate in your other suicide thread discussion. I just view it as a very redundant thread.

Edited June 29, 2012 by writergal

[Pirouette]

If as you say, the person contemplating suicide believes that no one cares about them, on the other side does the suicidal person genuinely care for others?

[verhrzn]

Then maybe you have a personality disorder, like narcissistic personality disorder. You are preoccupied with suicide, you need constant attention and validation from posters here, have an obsessive-self interest and have little empathy towards others here. Just my opinion of course because all of your posts (threads that you start, or your responses to others posts) tend to bring the situation back to you. Always you.

 

Your started this thread under the guise of answering the "why" of suicide being justifiable. But that "why" was already addressed in your previous thread. The whole "justifiable" argument is also embedded well in your previous post about suicide. So I don't view this thread as sharing any new information from you, except from posters who didn't participate in your other suicide thread discussion. I just view it as a very redundant thread.

 

Then why are you posting in it?

 

But please, go ahead and just keep telling me what an awful person I am, going so far as to diagnose me with a personality disorder over the Internet. Because that isn't an over-stepping of bounds at all.

 

Have I attacked you in any way? Insulted you in any way? Had an impact on your life, in any way? Forced you to read my threads, somehow magically avoided your Ignore list?

 

No? Then why do you feel the need to pile on? I quite obviously already hate myself, and am surrounded by people who are indifferent or openly just as hateful.

 

Do you really think running me down is somehow helpful? Do you get some sick pleasure out of putting me down?

 

If you dislike me, put me on Ignore. Call me on the thread-jacking if you really feel like playing moderator (instead of, ya know, reporting me like you should be doing.) But telling me what I can and cannot talk about, in my own damn thread, is the height of self-involved. Pot, kettle.

[denise_xo]

Except maybe they're suicidal because no body cares. You're arguing that depression makes people see situations in a skewed way. But maybe the person saw the situation clearly, which made them depressed. In the latter case, they'd be correct that no one cares because that is what promoted their suicidal desires.

 

Again, not to be an attention-seeking whore or anything, but sometimes depression/suicide wishes are not situational. I've never had friends who cared about me. I've been in lots of different locations and situations over the past 10 years, and nothing has diminished my suicidal desires. Why? Because no matter what you change around me, I am still me. The common factor in all of these people not caring... is me.

 

Obviously I'm arguing this side of the coin partially due to my own experiences (and being an ego-driven b*tch and all, of course) but it's always seemed deeply patronizing to tell someone what their experiences, and their life, is and should be.

 

Where do we draw the line in terms of autonomy?

 

Of course depression is caused by societal and circumstantial factors. I'm not saying it just landed on someone's head. I don't know your case so I don't want to comment on it. But I do know that a lot of people who see life negatively also don't see opportunities for making it better, and I think that's been quite widely documented in relation to depression. So, like I said, in general I think societal concerns here overrides the invididual's general autonomy to commit suicide, and I think exceptions to that based on mental illness should be preceeded by at least fifteen years of professional follow up.

[verhrzn]

Of course depression is caused by societal and circumstantial factors. I'm not saying it just landed on someone's head. I don't know your case so I don't want to comment on it. But I do know that a lot of people who see life negatively also don't see opportunities for making it better, and I think that's been quite widely documented in relation to depression. So, like I said, in general I think societal concerns here overrides the invididual's general autonomy to commit suicide, and I think exceptions to that based on mental illness should be preceeded by at least fifteen years of professional follow up.

 

PS: Just like to point out: See! WriterGal posts in my thread just to encourage me killing myself, since I'm a selfish, narcissistic, egotistical f*cked-up person! Oh I just LOVE this attention I'm getting, and you said no posters would care!

[denise_xo]

PS: Just like to point out: See! WriterGal posts in my thread just to encourage me killing myself, since I'm a selfish, narcissistic, egotistical f*cked-up person! Oh I just LOVE this attention I'm getting, and you said no posters would care!

 

I really don't see how you can say that WG posted with the intention to encourage you to commit suicide. I don't read that anywhere in her post. So my previous post still holds.

 

I'm going to log out because it's getting late here. Thanks for the conversation and good night everyone.

[writergal]

Then why are you posting in it?

 

But please, go ahead and just keep telling me what an awful person I am, going so far as to diagnose me with a personality disorder over the Internet. Because that isn't an over-stepping of bounds at all.

 

Have I attacked you in any way? Insulted you in any way? Had an impact on your life, in any way? Forced you to read my threads, somehow magically avoided your Ignore list?

 

No? Then why do you feel the need to pile on? I quite obviously already hate myself, and am surrounded by people who are indifferent or openly just as hateful.

 

Do you really think running me down is somehow helpful? Do you get some sick pleasure out of putting me down?

 

If you dislike me, put me on Ignore. Call me on the thread-jacking if you really feel like playing moderator (instead of, ya know, reporting me like you should be doing.) But telling me what I can and cannot talk about, in my own damn thread, is the height of self-involved. Pot, kettle.

 

I'm not running you down, just expressing my opinion. I don't dislike you at all and don't need to put you on ignore. I was serious when I suggested you try to write an article as others encouraged you to write a blog as you are a good writer. So if I didn't care about what you thought, I wouldn't have bothered to post in this thread. But when I see a pattern, I have to point it out. I find your need to obsess about suicide with multiple threads really self-involved and attention seeking, no matter what spin you put on it, like your claim that you started the thread to find out whether suicide is justifiable.

 

I'm not telling you what you can or can't post about. But you're arguing with me just proves my point.

 

ETA: I see you've accused me of telling you to kill yourself which is completely wrong.

[Pirouette]

PS: Just like to point out: See! WriterGal posts in my thread just to encourage me killing myself, since I'm a selfish, narcissistic, egotistical f*cked-up person! Oh I just LOVE this attention I'm getting, and you said no posters would care!

 

To be fair, I don't believe she was telling you to kill yourself. Whether you take that as encouragement to do so, is another matter.

[writergal]

Thanks Pirouette. I certainly wasn't telling Verhrzn to kill herself. Nowhere in any of my posts did I suggest that.

[verhrzn]

I'm not running you down, just expressing my opinion. I don't dislike you at all and don't need to put you on ignore. I was serious when I suggested you try to write an article as others encouraged you to write a blog as you are a good writer. So if I didn't care about what you thought, I wouldn't have bothered to post in this thread. But when I see a pattern, I have to point it out. I find your need to obsess about suicide with multiple threads really self-involved and attention seeking, no matter what spin you put on it, like your claim that you started the thread to find out whether suicide is justifiable.

 

I'm not telling you what you can or can't post about. But you're arguing with me just proves my point.

 

ETA: I see you've accused me of telling you to kill yourself which is completely wrong.

 

No, you just told me I'm egotistical, an attention-seeking, probably have narcissistic personality disorder, am selfish, lacking in empathy (so I'm a sociopath as well hm?) and come into my thread just to tell me how redundant it is. That is all perfectly nice, polite behavior, that isn't at all encouraging of my self-hate. And it's all behavior that totally says "I don't dislike you... I just think you're an awful person!" Unless you're saying that narcissistic, sociopathic people are actually good and nice?

 

And, ya know, no other poster on this entire forum posts redundant threads. Or talks about themselves and their experiences. And it's not like I come here to talk about stuff I'm struggling with. That might take time to sort out. That I don't cure in one thread.

 

And it isn't as if people have the option to ignore me, or not read my thread. You were obviously FORCED to read it, and FORCED to "point out a pattern" in an incredibly rude and non-helpful way.

 

And, um, pot, kettle, cause no where do I see you maybe taking some of my points into consideration. But, nope, it's all me, you are the blameless angel just... happening to point out all the ways I'm awful.

 

And no, you didn't directly say "kill yourself." Just like no one directly tells fat people they're ugly... they just hint at it with heavy subtext. Unless, of course, again, you think calling someone an egotistical, attention-seeking, narcissistic sociopath is somehow encouraging?

[Ross MwcFan]

I really don't see how you can say that WG posted with the intention to encourage you to commit suicide. I don't read that anywhere in her post. So my previous post still holds.

 

I'm going to log out because it's getting late here. Thanks for the conversation and good night everyone.

 

Surely WG would know that talking to someone in that way who wants to commit suicide wouldn't be a good idea?

[writergal]

Surely WG would know that talking to someone in that way who wants to commit suicide wouldn't be a good idea?

 

I'm not responsible for what Verhrzn does or doesn't do, nor have I suggested she commit suicide.

 

verhrzn, are you planning to commit suicide, any time soon?

 

This is a more direct question that didn't upset Verhrzn. I merely commented that I thought Verhrzn may possess some traits of a specific personality disorder, not to be trite or cruel but as a mere opinion. That's all. In hindsight, I never should have responded to Verhrzn's thread in the first place. I certainly won't in the future.

[Pirouette]

Surely WG would know that talking to someone in that way who wants to commit suicide wouldn't be a good idea?

 

And surely we all know how our emotions can get too involved in a discussion and that we shouldn't take things on a message board too seriously, but alas we do anyways.

 

Not sure if I should even try wading into these waters. Are we going to at least try to return to a discussion of the topic at hand?

 

My question was on the ability of the suicidal person, who believes they are unloved, to love others and I'd also like to add, themselves.

[Ross MwcFan]

I'm not responsible for what Verhrzn does or doesn't do, nor have I suggested she commit suicide.

 

So that makes it okay to talk to them in such a way that could push them over the edge?

[Ross MwcFan]

And surely we all know how our emotions can get too involved in a discussion and that we shouldn't take things on a message board too seriously, but alas we do anyways.

 

Not sure if I should even try wading into these waters. Are we going to at least try to return to a discussion of the topic at hand?

 

My question was on the ability of the suicidal person, who believes they are unloved, to love others and I'd also like to add, themselves.

 

Oh sorry that I've said something that you don't like.

 

You wasn't discussing the topic at hand either.