Is Suicide Ever Justifiable?

[writergal]

So that makes it okay to talk to them in such a way that could push them over the edge?

 

I already answered your question Ross.

[Ross MwcFan]

I already answered your question Ross.

 

So it's okay then.

 

Thanks.

[Pirouette]

Oh sorry that I've said something that you don't like.

 

You wasn't discussing the topic at hand either.

 

I didn't indicate one way or the other about liking what you said. It was merely a rejoinder on the other side of the coin to consider.

 

And yes that was my attempt to return to the topic at hand.

 

Truly, I'd like to know yours or someone else's opinion of the suicidal person's abiliity to love while in that frame of mind.

[Ross MwcFan]

I didn't indicate one way or the other about liking what you said. It was merely a rejoinder on the other side of the coin to consider.

 

And yes that was my attempt to return to the topic at hand.

 

Truly, I'd like to know yours or someone else's opinion of the suicidal person's abiliity to love while in that frame of mind.

 

I can't really see how it would change their ability to love.

[Pirouette]

I can't really see how it would change their ability to love.

 

And I would argue that a suicidal person who is suicidal because they believe that they are alone and unloved is unable to love another, to care about someone else's needs as separate from themselves, and to derive joy from the simple act of loving another. By extension they cannot love themselves, just the opposite. They hate themselves.

[Pirouette]

And extending that, I argue that is why it is considered a selfish, or at the very least, a wrongful act in that it by its own nature, it occurs from a place of extreme hatred.

[xxoo]

Suicide may be justifiable, I believe, in cases of terrible suffering and no hope for recovery. I am thinking of terminal illness here, but extreme cases of mental illness might apply.

 

But the thing is, the only way to know if there is truly no hope is to pursue every avenue of finding help. The physically ill person will go to dr after dr looking for hope, until no dr is willing to offer any. The mentally ill person, sadly, will give up much sooner, as the mental illness itself robs the individual of hope, even when much hope exists.

[angie2443]

Verhzn, do you have anyone that you are close to? A mother or father or brother or sister? Anyone?

 

I can't tell you if suicide is justifiable or not. I can't tell you if it's selfish. I can tell you that for anyone who loves you, it would leave a permanent hole in their heart. May I ask how old you are?

[austyre]

actually suicide in some cultures is considered the honorable option too save face or sacrifice in defence of country or family

is it selfish yes it is but there is always a bigger picture too the individuals life ie family and so on very complex motives

[Pirouette]

To determine if suicide is justifiable in matters of honour, either for country or family, which is thus done in service of others, you would have to examine the thoughts and beliefs that underly those cultures and attach value to those. Then you're getting into whether one cultural perspective can judge another, and further into whether archtypes and absolutes exist in this universe.

 

I suppose that goes for any philosophical debate and I don't think we'll arrive at any agreement there!

[betterdeal]

Meh. What else would I be doing with my time? And if I couldn't post here, I'd have nowhere for these thoughts to go, and then I probably would do something drastic. I find that the less able I am to express thoughts like this, the more worked up I get.

 

It just seems to me you've gone from portraying yourself as a feisty, strong-headed, gives-as-go-as-she-gets Irish American, to a more morose, depressed, defeatist in the time you've been posting here. That makes me question whether this process is a help or a hindrance to you.

[xxoo]

V, please make an appt with a medical doctor, and share that you have these persistent thoughts of suicide. Share what you've said here--that you have the thoughts daily, for years on end. Give the medical professionals a fair chance to help you.

[Zed]

V, please make an appt with a medical doctor, and share that you have these persistent thoughts of suicide. Share what you've said here--that you have the thoughts daily, for years on end. Give the medical professionals a fair chance to help you.

 

 

I agree. If I lived in your area, I would totally go there and drag you to get help. I can only empathize with your sruggles. It takes time and patience. Give yourself a fighting chance and solicit professionals who can really help.

 

Please be well--don't give in or give up.

[CopingGal]

It's justified if:

 

-the person has a terminal illness

-if the person is suffering for another reason and has no friends or family to hurt by doing this. I think it's justified, but the person still should not do it because things could change.

[spookie]

I am pretty sure your mom would be devastated. For a whole host of reasons.

[spookie]

V, I know anything I saw will just bounce off, but this is what strikes me the most about your threads.

 

You have completely unrealistic expectations. You perceive others' lives as so much fuller than yours, when I can tell you, in most cases, that's really not true.

 

You judge your life against ridiculous standards. You are unpopular because your life doesn't resemble a stream of photos from some attention hooker on facebook. You are ugly because men aren't lining up to ask you out. You're stupid because you haven't accomplished anything huge yet.

 

Wake up... that's most people's lives. So you got ditched for your birthday. So did I a few years back, so did several of my friends. It sucks, but I don't think it's that unusual. We moped and then forgot about it. You're contemplating suicide.

 

Most people are lucky if they have:

 

- a job that they don't hate that pays the bills

- some living relatives

- 1 or 2 reliable friends

- a good SO (takes a while to nail this down)

 

In our twenties, most people are not at 100% completeness in any category. There is a lot of shifting around, trying on relationships and friendships to see what works and what doesn't.

 

Not everyone graduated from a sorority with 200 best friends and a husband.

[burningashes]

Where do you think the pain goes? It doesn't just disappear when you go, you pass it on. It's your legacy, your parting gift to those that know you. Something those that care about you will carry to their graves.

 

You are welcome to read my latest thread about the aftermath of a friend's wife who committed suicide. Perhaps that will give you the insight on how much pain people are in now after the suicide.

 

She left a note saying not to miss her, or mourn her but to celebrate her life. She tied most of her "loose ends" up but it is certain that did not make thing easier for anyone.

 

I'm still not sure whether this was selfish because of the enormous fall out her death has brought on. No one saw this coming. Not even the suicide intervention counsellors she worked with in the same office for many years.

 

Well never know why she decided to take her own life-- she had everything, a house, great job as a social worker, friends and family who loved her to pieces. She also had all the resources to seek help if she was that depressed, yet she never did. We will never know and now we bear that legacy where she is instead remembered by her suicide, not as who she was as a person that we all loved.

[fucpcg]

The answer to the question posed is soo much more than a paragraph answer. To those that oppose for religious beliefs, that's great for you, but some of us like me are atheist and have no concern for such things. If you just write a blank check and say it's selfish if you do it, those are probably people who have never been in a situation in life that would make you feel such thoughts. Like they say, walk a mile in their shoes... For those that think that you can just go get help and it (life) gets better, you've never been in that position, or you would know it's not that simple. Life can be cruel, and sometimes you just get tired of the fighting.

 

My friend blew his brains out two nights ago. Justifiable? Furthest concern in my mind right now. Nor is it for me to question. All I know is it saddens me when people go thru the pain necessary to want to make that decision. The question of suicide "justification" just isnt my business. Great topic to discuss when it's not something that has affected your world.

Edited June 30, 2012 by fucpcg

[betterdeal]

I think the idea of whether it's justifiable ties into the idea that the life is fair and just, but that idea is demonstrably untrue. Life is not fair, and the Universe is unjust. Death is something we naturally dislike and our social contract with one another, in every society, always includes the agreement to not kill one another. Suicide breaks that contact and is therefore upsetting on at least two levels: death is saddening, and killing is wrong as according to the terms of our social contract.

[xxoo]

V, I tried to send you a pm, but your inbox is full.

[Zed]

Apparently, you've gotten a lot of support, empathy, practical advice and casual debate on the validity of suicide on whether it is justified or merely contemplating its effect due to your"ugliness", from the first linked suicide post and this post.

 

Has anything resonated or is the help that you solicited and the questions that you have sought, been sufficiently answered?

 

Talk of suicide would generate concern but at some point it is beyond the scope of this board. But you seem fine now so was your problem resolved or was this merely an intellectual exercise?

[darcgun]

Only losers commit suicide.

[verhrzn]

Apparently, you've gotten a lot of support, empathy, practical advice and casual debate on the validity of suicide on whether it is justified or merely contemplating its effect due to your"ugliness", from the first linked suicide post and this post.

 

Has anything resonated or is the help that you solicited and the questions that you have sought, been sufficiently answered?

 

Talk of suicide would generate concern but at some point it is beyond the scope of this board. But you seem fine now so was your problem resolved or was this merely an intellectual exercise?

 

The help you gave me has been very appreciated, though I am still quite intimidated by that site, and trying to do the necessary budgeting in my head, even for a sliding scale clinic.

 

The thing is... sometimes it's an intellectual exercise, but it's an intellectual exercise because I think about this stuff all the time. So it's both an intellectual exercise, and a form of self-expression. Talking about things helps me process them. This stuff is always in my head, and the only way I avoid ACTING on it is by getting it out of my head. I journal almost constantly, but sometimes I need interaction about this stuff.

 

I know it sounds strange (and I'm sure I'll get called a liar) but I actually do not look for sympathy or attention. That's the... wrong way to put it. I just process things better when I have people to bounce my thoughts off of. So, for example, the exchange in this thread with Denise was probably one of the most helpful. I could talk about my personal experiences, but also put it in a wider intellectual framework. She didn't seem to take my experiences, well, personally, and reacted in a similar way. Was that indulging my "attention-seeking"? I don't know, but it did help.

 

Sometimes... just having that kind of help, enough to just get me past a rough day, is what's needed. It doesn't mean it's resolved... it means I got through another day.

 

Lately I've been getting very upset with this forum though. I don't understand the need to "fix" problems or people. I've only been coming here for a year... it's a significantly short period of time to "fix" my issues, even with all the best intentions and advice in the world. I come here, I would suppose like lots of people, to just... try to get through life, when they don't have any other outlet.

 

I can understand the frustration with trying to help someone but at the same time, it isn't really fair to demand some anonymous stranger immediately embrace your responses and be cured... and if they don't, it's somehow a personal affront or a mark of bad character.

 

If you're annoyed, put em on an Ignore list. If you find the threads redundant, avoid them. I really don't understand the present tendency to, in fact, BASH other posters for having problems that aren't solved fast or efficiently enough.

 

Yes, I have suicidal thoughts. Yes, my threads are sometimes the same issues. But even WITH therapy (which, even with the helpful links, is still difficult for me to obtain), it's still gonna be months before I make sufficient progress.

 

If posting my redundant threads here helps... why in the world are people telling me I can't? Or criticizing me for it? Or judging me for it, as attention-seeking, sociopathic or what-have-you?

 

I just don't understand it.

[Zed]

The help you gave me has been very appreciated, though I am still quite intimidated by that site, and trying to do the necessary budgeting in my head, even for a sliding scale clinic.

 

The thing is... sometimes it's an intellectual exercise, but it's an intellectual exercise because I think about this stuff all the time. So it's both an intellectual exercise, and a form of self-expression. Talking about things helps me process them. This stuff is always in my head, and the only way I avoid ACTING on it is by getting it out of my head. I journal almost constantly, but sometimes I need interaction about this stuff.

 

I know it sounds strange (and I'm sure I'll get called a liar) but I actually do not look for sympathy or attention. That's the... wrong way to put it. I just process things better when I have people to bounce my thoughts off of. So, for example, the exchange in this thread with Denise was probably one of the most helpful. I could talk about my personal experiences, but also put it in a wider intellectual framework. She didn't seem to take my experiences, well, personally, and reacted in a similar way. Was that indulging my "attention-seeking"? I don't know, but it did help.

 

Sometimes... just having that kind of help, enough to just get me past a rough day, is what's needed. It doesn't mean it's resolved... it means I got through another day.

 

Lately I've been getting very upset with this forum though. I don't understand the need to "fix" problems or people. I've only been coming here for a year... it's a significantly short period of time to "fix" my issues, even with all the best intentions and advice in the world. I come here, I would suppose like lots of people, to just... try to get through life, when they don't have any other outlet.

 

I can understand the frustration with trying to help someone but at the same time, it isn't really fair to demand some anonymous stranger immediately embrace your responses and be cured... and if they don't, it's somehow a personal affront or a mark of bad character.

 

If you're annoyed, put em on an Ignore list. If you find the threads redundant, avoid them. I really don't understand the present tendency to, in fact, BASH other posters for having problems that aren't solved fast or efficiently enough.

 

Yes, I have suicidal thoughts. Yes, my threads are sometimes the same issues. But even WITH therapy (which, even with the helpful links, is still difficult for me to obtain), it's still gonna be months before I make sufficient progress.

 

If posting my redundant threads here helps... why in the world are people telling me I can't? Or criticizing me for it? Or judging me for it, as attention-seeking, sociopathic or what-have-you?

 

I just don't understand it.

 

I don't post often enough and consistenly to put anyone on ignore. I tend to read what is interesting and your perspective is interesting if tortured especially as I am one of those invisible women. I am glad you read the links. (Also those links you need to actually call. If you must start with the hotline. But talk to people in real time.)

 

When you create two threads talking specifically about suicide, that causes concern and is considered a crisis. You have stated that you cannot read tone, well it is difficult to gage your intentions as well because I don't see you either so became worried and offered to support and help. Often you will not acknowledge those who are giving you empathetic,positive, and sane advice and will focus on the trogodoyltes. You can be quite arch and dismissive of advice of which you believe is too trite, "new agey", or what you deemed as repetitive. Now you seemed comfortable exploring the intellectual ramifications on suicide but you probably will not obtain the emotional and mental sustenance that you actively seek--which is your real objective. No one here is going to say your reasons for continuing to contemplate suicide because you are ugly will ever be justified. I have (several others as well)repeatedly stated that I empathize and am genuinely concerned. I am an"ugly girl" so I can relate to your issues. My approach is different however, in that I know trying to elicit a sympathetic response from strangers will be just as dissatisfying as what you are attempting to do.

 

Now your other thread talking about venting is equally appropriate and I think it is perfectly reasonable to enter an anonymous void to vent on painful subjects that you cannot vent in real time. But from what I have read, you exhibit strong anxiety, depression, and deep unhappiness that is pervasive and has cast a pall over your life. You talk about killing yourself on other threads unrelated to an active post on suicide. This entrenched despair seems to indicate that you will probably need a stronger level of support then what can be gleaned here. It should be noted ha it am not advocating that you cease and desist from this board, but the level negativity that is generated here seems to exacerbate your core issues and fuels your frustration. Again I am sure these are observations you have heard before.

 

However there are such things as support groups in which you can bounce off ideas with people who are struggling just as you and they are usually free. It is also in the information I sent. You have some measure of control, because people won't wantonly troll or lob a molotov cocktail at you for their sick amusement.This in turn would lessen frustration and provide the support you need without feeling empty and alone.

 

Naturally, the level of recovery is up to you and no one is expecting you to functioning optimally in two days using the Lefkoe Method. My only concern, as a complete stranger, is to encourage you to seek additional, real world help. Suicide is serious and the fact that your posts are liberally sprinkled with a deep dark despair is troubling. People who are empathetic tend to do be concerned.

 

I agree with your last point that changing perspecitve takes time and redudancy is part of the process, but let me ask this--based on your time here-you said a year--has posting here been very therapuetic? Have you obtained real help that has been a postiive addition to how you view your life now?

[Pirouette]

Lately I've been getting very upset with this forum though. I don't understand the need to "fix" problems or people. I've only been coming here for a year... it's a significantly short period of time to "fix" my issues, even with all the best intentions and advice in the world. I come here, I would suppose like lots of people, to just... try to get through life, when they don't have any other outlet.

 

I can understand the frustration with trying to help someone but at the same time, it isn't really fair to demand some anonymous stranger immediately embrace your responses and be cured... and if they don't, it's somehow a personal affront or a mark of bad character.

 

If you're annoyed, put em on an Ignore list. If you find the threads redundant, avoid them. I really don't understand the present tendency to, in fact, BASH other posters for having problems that aren't solved fast or efficiently enough.

 

Yes, I have suicidal thoughts. Yes, my threads are sometimes the same issues. But even WITH therapy (which, even with the helpful links, is still difficult for me to obtain), it's still gonna be months before I make sufficient progress.

 

If posting my redundant threads here helps... why in the world are people telling me I can't? Or criticizing me for it? Or judging me for it, as attention-seeking, sociopathic or what-have-you?

 

I just don't understand it.

 

People who post on this site, in fact people in general, are all damaged and suffering in their own way. They are not endless fonts of wisdom, serenity, and kindness, though we may strive towards these ideals. So though it may be unfair to be treated with incivility, it is understandable that other people act and react in ways that you may not agree with, that we all get annoyed and angry with each other, and that they feel the need to express their feelings in this forum much in the same way that you do.

 

People respond to you and give you advice because they truly want to help you (you can tell the difference between those who are just trolling) and because they hope and believe that their advice will help you. Perhaps they see parts of their personal struggle in you, and thus their dialogue with you itself becomes personal, and when you disagree or are dismissive of their advice, well then it becomes a personal rejection. With such strong feelings involved on this site, it's no wonder that it can quickly degenerate into attacks and hurt feelings.

 

No one here is perfect. Just as you cannot understand why people react to you the way they do, they cannot understand why you say the things you do and react to them the way you do. Suicide as well, is a very emotional and alarming topic to discuss, almost guaranteed to get personal.

 

Personally, I believe empathy and striving to be more civil to all would go a long way in these forums. And how would we ever get everybody to agree to that?