Is Suicide Ever Justifiable?

[TaraMaiden]

Okay, let's say hypothetically a victim has thought of the above, and how to address those concerns in a non-dramatic way.

 

For example: commit the act near/at a hospital, where the people involved would be desensitized to death. Pay for the funeral costs out of a savings fund. Write a note explaining that this is just how it is, no need to blame themselves, death is just a part of life, sometimes life is just not fair and it ends.

 

In other words, what if there was a way to deal with suicide in a responsible fashion, so there's no muss, no fuss in the aftermath? Then is it still selfish?

Yes.

Any wilful harm to a living breathing human being is wrong.

Including if that person is yourself.

Respect for, and right to being alive, is a privilege without barriers.

[verhrzn]

Yes.

Any wilful harm to a living breathing human being is wrong.

Including if that person is yourself.

Respect for, and right to being alive, is a privilege without barriers.

 

So do we NOT get to exert control over our own bodies? Define our own lives? If we argue that it's a person's right to ingest drugs, or make certain health decisions, why is suicide different?

[writergal]

But... why would my article be about preventing it? I mean, I'm wondering if there aren't lots of times where it's justified, and actually the lesser of evils.

 

Added note: I change my opinion about posters not noticing. Some posters who notice I wasn't around anymore, and they would be ecstatic. So, there, my suicide would in fact be a selfless act of humanity for people on this board. See why I'm confused about suicide being considered inherently selfish?

 

Well your argument that sometimes its justified (followed up with examples that support it) would counter argue why its not justified (the second half of your article) ending with your conclusion (which side you choose): hence you've written a persuasive essay vs. informative one on suicide prevention.

 

There are currently 66 written articles on the topic of suicide as justifiable. So that means 66 other people are wondering the same thing and wrote an article about it. Check it out. I suggest you write your article and post it on Helium: Debate: Is suicide ever justified? - Grief & Loss - Helium

[denise_xo]

Some posters who notice I wasn't around anymore, and they would be ecstatic.

 

No offense, but I think you are over stating your own importance here, and that kind of self centeredness is, ironically, quite typical of those who consider suicide.

 

My own suicide attempt caused my mother a lot of grief, and if I had gone through with it, obviously the consequences would have been magnified.

 

I don't personally find it helpful to think of suicide as selfish, simply because it's so removed from how the potential suicide victim perceives a situation. Tellng a person who is about to commit suicide that they are selfish isn't usually going to help the situation very much.

 

I don't know if and when suicide is every justified. I haven't made up my mind yet about what I think about it. I read a story recently about a guy in the UK who can't move or speak but has as clear mind, and he is campaigning for his right to assisted suicide. I sympathise with his plight. I am worried that euthanasia on a large scale will eventually make people who are old and sick move towards suicide because they are worried about being a burden on society.

 

For young people wanting to commit suicide, I think it should be treated for what it is - a mental health problem which in many cases is treatable.

[tman666]

We actually spent quite a while on this very subject in my "Moral and Social Problems" class in college...

 

I think that there's a certain level of selfishness that can be present in people who commit (or threaten to commit) suicide, but I'm not sure if this is always a "malicious" selfishness.

 

It seems to me, based on my observations, that people who contemplate suicide are usually buried so deeply in their own misery that they can't see beyond the "grey veil" in front of their faces. To me, this kind of behavior (supreme focus on one's own misery) is inherently selfish, but not in the sense that it's stemming from a desire to be so. (not sure if all that makes any sense; I'm just kind of rambling here)

 

As far as justification, it's very easy for me to sit here in strong body and healthy mind and say "nope, there's never a way to fully justify ending one's life". And as much as I wish I could say that and truly believe in the universal applicability of that statement, I do think that there are circumstances during which pain and suffering (both physical and mental) becomes so insurmountable and crippling to one's quality of life that suicide may be the more "humane" option. Pain is an interesting beast because without experiencing it firsthand, it's impossible to examine the "right and wrong" of it.

 

My personal belief is that life is a unique gift. Whether or not you believe in continuity of the soul beyond life is beside the point I'm trying to make. I believe we all get one shot on this earth. As such, one would have to justify suicide by asking themselves if they've done the absolute best they could do to keep living; have they completely exhausted all other options. I think that if one approaches these questions with brutal honesty, that you'll find that that there are usually alternatives, no matter how small or large, to ending one's life.

[tman666]

Ugliness. Can't cure ugly (unless you're rich) or a bad personality. Those are permanent, and severely undermine the quality of life for the people experiencing them.

 

Perspective is not permanent.

[verhrzn]

We actually spent quite a while on this very subject in my "Moral and Social Problems" class in college...

 

I think that there's a certain level of selfishness that can be present in people who commit (or threaten to commit) suicide, but I'm not sure if this is always a "malicious" selfishness.

 

It seems to me, based on my observations, that people who contemplate suicide are usually buried so deeply in their own misery that they can't see beyond the "grey veil" in front of their faces. To me, this kind of behavior (supreme focus on one's own misery) is inherently selfish, but not in the sense that it's stemming from a desire to be so. (not sure if all that makes any sense; I'm just kind of rambling here)

 

As far as justification, it's very easy for me to sit here in strong body and healthy mind and say "nope, there's never a way to fully justify ending one's life". And as much as I wish I could say that and truly believe in the universal applicability of that statement, I do think that there are circumstances during which pain and suffering (both physical and mental) becomes so insurmountable and crippling to one's quality of life that suicide may be the more "humane" option. Pain is an interesting beast because without experiencing it firsthand, it's impossible to examine the "right and wrong" of it.

 

My personal belief is that life is a unique gift. Whether or not you believe in continuity of the soul beyond life is beside the point I'm trying to make. I believe we all get one shot on this earth. As such, one would have to justify suicide by asking themselves if they've done the absolute best they could do to keep living; have they completely exhausted all other options. I think that if one approaches these questions with brutal honesty, that you'll find that that there are usually alternatives, no matter how small or large, to ending one's life.

 

What's a grey veil?

 

And what if there are no alternatives? Then justified?

 

 

No offense, but I think you are over stating your own importance here, and that kind of self centeredness is, ironically, quite typical of those who consider suicide.

 

I said "some." For as much as I am a joke to a lot of people here, I don't think them being overjoyed at me being gone is an exaggeration. I think Feelsgoodman would throw a party.

[TaraMaiden]

because it ends something that need not be ended.

Your life is sacred.

Your life means something, get that through your head.

It's up to you to make it mean something, and to make a difference.

The problem is, people believe they have time.

[writergal]

V just write the article and publish it already.

[verhrzn]

because it ends something that need not be ended.

Your life is sacred.

Your life means something, get that through your head.

It's up to you to make it mean something, and to make a difference.

The problem is, people believe they have time.

 

If "it's up to you" to make your life mean something, then your life doesn't automatically mean something. It means your life does not have intrinsic value, if it's entirely up to you.

 

And if you're tried and failed to find meaning in your life, and the meaning of your life is "all up to you," then ergo, your life is meaningless.

 

And why does it "need not" be ended? Who gets to decide that? Isn't the person who has the life, has the body, get to decide if what they have should be ended?

[tman666]

What's a grey veil?

 

And what if there are no alternatives? Then justified?

 

I used the term "grey veil" (perhaps poorly) as a metaphor for a skewed sense of perception of the world. Under such a veil, it's difficult to make logical decisions or see a situation objectively.

 

I'm not an expert in such things (clearly). I guess I could have used the term "fog of depression" and gotten the same point across. My apologies for any confusion.

 

As far as there being no alternatives (a rare situation, as I was trying to point out previously), I believe one could justify suicide, provided you look at the issue on a purely human level. When you factor in the spiritual side of things, it becomes less clear cut.

[denise_xo]

It seems to me, based on my observations, that people who contemplate suicide are usually buried so deeply in their own misery that they can't see beyond the "grey veil" in front of their faces. To me, this kind of behavior (supreme focus on one's own misery) is inherently selfish, but not in the sense that it's stemming from a desire to be so. (not sure if all that makes any sense; I'm just kind of rambling here)

 

I think that makes total sense, and I fully agree. Mental health issues often characterised by distorted thought patterns that prevent you from seeing a range of opportunities or that remove you from reality.

[verhrzn]

V just write the article and publish it already.

 

What article?? I really don't understand why you think it'd be possible to publish anything... especially since my article probably would be "We should totally let ugly people kill themselves without guilting them into staying around so we can reject and judge them some more." What reputable editor is gonna publish that??

[Ross MwcFan]

I'm not sure what you mean.

You said:

 

I asked about the context, because if a person is terminally ill, in great pain, and discomfort, and is begging anyone who will listen, to end their lives, then that' a subject matter I'm not prepared to go too far into.

 

In other scenarios, if you want someone to live that badly - tell them. Don't assume they know, because if suicide happens, everyone loses out, don't they?

 

Well, you know, your first paragraph is what I'm talking about, I don't see any need to go into anymore detail about it, as what I was saying was explanative enough to put across my point.

 

Other scenarios, I agree, tell them you love them and care about them, as maybe they're thinking that no one cares or loves them and is a big part of why they're miserable and wanting to die, or maybe that, with whatever other problem they have, is enough to make them want to commit suicide.

 

I agree, if someone knows that people love them, and living isn't that bad for them, but they're just going to kill themselves because 'Eh, I don't really care either way, I just feel like it, there doesn't seem much point to being alive', then that is selfish.

 

Such as....?

 

Surely you know that there are plenty of things, I'm not sure if I really want to sit here and think about all the different things there are and type a lot of them out.

[verhrzn]

I think that makes total sense, and I fully agree. Mental health issues often characterised by distorted thought patterns that prevent you from seeing a range of opportunities or that remove you from reality.

 

And if a person isn't mentally ill?

 

What if a person is in therapy, is on medication, and still wants to commit suicide? What exactly are the markers of a mentally healthy person? If your claim is that anyone who wants to commit suicide is mentally unhealthy, then you immediately shut down the discussion.

[denise_xo]

As far as there being no alternatives (a rare situation, as I was trying to point out previously), I believe one could justify suicide, provided you look at the issue on a purely human level. When you factor in the spiritual side of things, it becomes less clear cut.

 

I don't necessarily think you have to put a spiritual spin on it, though. You can care about societal consequences without referring to religion. Are we as a society better off if it was acceptable that anyone could go and kill themselves when they felt like it? What consequences would that have at the collective level, which would in turn affect all of us as individuals?

[TaraMaiden]

If "it's up to you" to make your life mean something, then your life doesn't automatically mean something. It means your life does not have intrinsic value, if it's entirely up to you.

 

And if you're tried and failed to find meaning in your life, and the meaning of your life is "all up to you," then ergo, your life is meaningless.

 

And why does it "need not" be ended? Who gets to decide that? Isn't the person who has the life, has the body, get to decide if what they have should be ended?

verhrzn, are you planning to commit suicide, any time soon?

[denise_xo]

And if a person isn't mentally ill?

 

What if a person is in therapy, is on medication, and still wants to commit suicide? What exactly are the markers of a mentally healthy person? If your claim is that anyone who wants to commit suicide is mentally unhealthy, then you immediately shut down the discussion.

 

If you are in therapy and on medication and want to commit suicide, you by definition have a mental health issue.

[verhrzn]

verhrzn, are you planning to commit suicide, any time soon?

 

*Shrugs* I've been considering it every day for about the past.... 10 years. I tried once. But I'm too big a coward. And I don't have the money for pay for a funeral, and it wouldn't be nice to leave my relatives with debt if I can avoid it.

 

I WOULD love if God just struck me down, like any minute. My ideal death situation would be saving a crowd from a gunman, or saving somebody from drowning... some nice heroic act on my way out.

 

If you are in therapy and on medication and want to commit suicide, you by definition have a mental health issue.

 

But if you're NOT on medication/therapy and want to commit suicide, people automatically TELL you to get therapy/get on medication, cause "obviously you're mentally unhealthy."

 

Thus my question: what markers are we using to label someone mentally healthy/unhealthy? Is suicide always a marker of being mentally unhealthy, or can a reasonable, rational person actually want to die?

[Ross MwcFan]

We actually spent quite a while on this very subject in my "Moral and Social Problems" class in college...

 

I think that there's a certain level of selfishness that can be present in people who commit (or threaten to commit) suicide, but I'm not sure if this is always a "malicious" selfishness.

 

It seems to me, based on my observations, that people who contemplate suicide are usually buried so deeply in their own misery that they can't see beyond the "grey veil" in front of their faces. To me, this kind of behavior (supreme focus on one's own misery) is inherently selfish, but not in the sense that it's stemming from a desire to be so. (not sure if all that makes any sense; I'm just kind of rambling here)

 

As far as justification, it's very easy for me to sit here in strong body and healthy mind and say "nope, there's never a way to fully justify ending one's life". And as much as I wish I could say that and truly believe in the universal applicability of that statement, I do think that there are circumstances during which pain and suffering (both physical and mental) becomes so insurmountable and crippling to one's quality of life that suicide may be the more "humane" option. Pain is an interesting beast because without experiencing it firsthand, it's impossible to examine the "right and wrong" of it.

 

My personal belief is that life is a unique gift. Whether or not you believe in continuity of the soul beyond life is beside the point I'm trying to make. I believe we all get one shot on this earth. As such, one would have to justify suicide by asking themselves if they've done the absolute best they could do to keep living; have they completely exhausted all other options. I think that if one approaches these questions with brutal honesty, that you'll find that that there are usually alternatives, no matter how small or large, to ending one's life.

 

But for someone who is suffering so badly that they'd rather be dead, life is not a gift.

 

That's like saying giving someone a bomb in wrapping paper that explodes in their face is a gift.

[writergal]

*Shrugs* I've been considering it every day for about the past.... 10 years. I tried once. But I'm too big a coward. And I don't have the money for pay for a funeral, and it wouldn't be nice to leave my relatives with debt if I can avoid it.

 

I WOULD love if God just struck me down, like any minute. My ideal death situation would be saving a crowd from a gunman, or saving somebody from drowning... some nice heroic act on my way out.

 

Ya know I'm disappointed in you V. What started out as a two-sided discussion has warped into a banal discussion about whether or not you should commit suicide. Stop it. If you want to have a discussion about the justification of suicide, keep yourself out of it. Otherwise, you should label this thread "Pt. 2" to your previous suicide thread.

 

I take suicide very seriously for reasons I already discussed in your other thread. But to now respond to your personal references yet again, would just be feeding your ego which is why I think your motive was for starting this thread.

[Ross MwcFan]

Forcing someone to live who is suffering so badly that they'd rather be dead, and they will be like this for the rest of their lives or the majority of their lives, is undeniably cruel and abhorrent.

[verhrzn]

Ya know I'm disappointed in you V. What started out as a two-sided discussion has warped into a banal discussion about whether or not you should commit suicide. Stop it. If you want to have a discussion about the justification of suicide, keep yourself out of it. Otherwise, you should label this thread "Pt. 2" to your previous suicide thread.

 

I take suicide very seriously for reasons I already discussed in your other thread. But to now respond to your personal references yet again, would just be feeding your ego which is why I think your motive was for starting this thread.

 

We all bring our experiences into our opinions. I think that suicide is justified, because I am in a situation where it would be justified... just like you think it is NOT justified, due to your own personal experiences.

 

... I also have no idea how it feeds my ego to be called selfish.

 

This is not a discussion about me committing suicide (Tara asked directly, so I answered directly), but my experiences ARE part of why I started this thread.

 

You think I should write an article on suicide prevention, and I am honestly asking WHY, when I am not convinced suicide should be prevented. Why do you think I should write an article on something I do not believe??

[denise_xo]

But if you're NOT on medication/therapy and want to commit suicide, people automatically TELL you to get therapy/get on medication, cause "obviously you're mentally unhealthy."

 

Thus my question: what markers are we using to label someone mentally healthy/unhealthy? Is suicide always a marker of being mentally unhealthy, or can a reasonable, rational person actually want to die?

 

I don't think a mentally unhealthy person can't also be rational. Mental health is more about emotional well being than the capacity to be rational, I think. And I certainly would not want a society where any person could just go and kill themselves when they feel like it. But from a species perspective, we are wired for survival - hence suicide is considered abnormal. I also have never met or heard of a person who wants to commit suicide who doesn't belong to any of the following categories:

a) has significant mental issues or

b) is living with a severe case of physical illness, or

c) has committed suicide for political reasons.

[verhrzn]

I don't think a mentally unhealthy person can't also be rational. Mental health is more about emotional well being than the capacity to be rational, I think. And I certainly would not want a society where any person could just go and kill themselves when they feel like it. But from a species perspective, we are wired for survival - hence suicide is considered abnormal. I also have never met or heard of a person who wants to commit suicide who doesn't belong to any of the following categories:

a) has significant mental issues or

b) is living with a severe case of physical illness, or

c) has committed suicide for political reasons.

 

Why wouldn't you want to live in that society? Japan has a more suicide-friendly society than the West, and they seem fine (as fine as the US is, anyway.)