I'm currently not speaking to my mother

[Auspecial]

 

During one of my visits, I saw her do something to my brother. She invalidated his feelings. It worked. It was weird to see her do it to someone, and it was even weirder to see her succeed. My brother is a pretty tough guy - I guess it's harder to shake off manipulation when you grew up with it. I wanted to punch her in the face when I saw her do that. What a manipulative woman.

 

 

I still don't believe she does these things consciously. She's like a starving person who found a buffet and is shoving her face with whatever she finds, not caring what she eats.

 

 

I can see how it would make you especially mad, after you had experienced it yourself and how unnecessarily disruptive it is. No one wants to see someone they care about being abused, and I think its great that your brother has someone like you who sees through her behavior. Just acknowledging that its really happening and laughing about it could be the best way to deal with it.

[SpiralOut]

Another question,

 

 

I always thought this was normal, but now I'm not so sure.

 

 

My mother has always acted more friendly towards some of my friends than others. That's normal enough I guess. She would be nice to them when they came over to visit. That's normal. If she ran into them in town, she would stop to talk to them, then tell me about it afterwards. I thought nothing of it at the time. Now, I am not so sure. After I drifted away from two of my friends that she especially liked, she would continue to talk to them when she saw them. I guess that's okay. But she would tell me all about it afterwards, even though she knew we didn't hang out anymore. I'm not sure what she did that for. She expected me to act interested, which is weird.

 

 

One of my childhood friends drifted apart when we were maybe 12 years old. So that's almost 20 years ago. I remained friendly enough with her, but we had different circles, and we didn't hang out anymore. Even now, I have her on FB but we don't keep in touch.

 

 

....my mother still talks about her. And she's not very nice about it either. This girl is beautiful, happily married (so far as I can tell, anyway), has two kids, seems happy enough (from what I can tell) with her life. Yet my mother belittles her for her job. ummm. I'm sorry but last time I checked you were never friends with her. You don't even really know her! I might not talk to her anymore but I still don't like seeing someone talk badly about her. It seems so bizarre to me. I don't know why she is clinging to this girl I was friends with 20 years ago. Isn't it time to let go?

 

 

One of my other friends, whom I'm not on good terms with (and my mother knows that) she still talked to for the longest time and would always tell me about it even though I don't care. When he finally stopped being friendly to her, she acted all butt-hurt. Okay, I understand that you like to be friendly with people, but he's not your friend. He never was. He probably feels weird acting friendly to the mother of some girl he is not friends with anymore.

 

 

I have a hometown friend I still see sometimes and my mother really likes her. She asks how she is and acts all interested and tells me "tell her I said hello!" She talks about her as if she knows her. It seems very weird to me. I can understand being friendly but I've always gotten this vibe like she wants my friends as her own.

 

 

Also, after she found out that I started talking to one of my cousins again, she didn't say anything for a while. Then one day, during a visit, she asked me if I still talk to him. I said yes. She said "oh he invited your brother to come up for a visit." I said "oh that's good." That was the end of the conversation. I walked away feeling as if she were trying to stick something to me. It didn't feel good.

Edited March 21, 2015 by SpiralOut

[Auspecial]

This is a manifestation of her lack of boundaries. It feels abnormal, and intrusive, because she is ignoring social cues and doing whatever she pleases. In my opinion, its a further attack on you, since she keeps doing this years later. Its a way of saying she has control of some element in your life.

 

Normally I might say that's just a mom trying to make conversation, but because of everything else, it smacks of un-loving manipulation.

[turnera]

Hmmm. I just assumed that she thought my situation sucked (which it didn't, and I think on some level she was jealous of it), so she decided to herself that I thought it sucked too

You have to keep going back to your one truth: she is doing what makes HER feel good. It has NOTHING to do with you.

 

Anything she says to you is ABOUT HER.

 

As long as you can remember that, you can detach from what she does.

[SpiralOut]

You have to keep going back to your one truth: she is doing what makes HER feel good. It has NOTHING to do with you.

 

Anything she says to you is ABOUT HER.

 

As long as you can remember that, you can detach from what she does.

 

Okay so she said that stuff because it made her feel better to think it, and it made her feel good to say it. She didn't think about how it may come across, because she doesn't care.

 

 

I still can't wrap my head around her perspective. It's so messed up.

[Timshel]

Have you looked up family scapegoating? I'm sorry if I am being repetitive, I have not read the entire thread.

Look it up unless you have already.

[SpiralOut]

Have you looked up family scapegoating? I'm sorry if I am being repetitive, I have not read the entire thread.

Look it up unless you have already.

 

Yes I have read up on it.

[Auspecial]

I may be incorrect but it appears to me OP is trying really hard to understand the bizarre situation she finds herself in.

 

Her brother may be the scapegoat.

 

It could be that she is GC who is also abused but not to the degree of SG.

 

If so, I hope she will reach out to him.

[SpiralOut]

I may be incorrect but it appears to me OP is trying really hard to understand the bizarre situation she finds herself in.

 

Her brother may be the scapegoat.

 

It could be that she is GC who is also abused but not to the degree of SG.

 

If so, I hope she will reach out to him.

 

Yes that's exactly it.

 

 

I have no idea which of us is the SC or GC (I'm assuming GC means golden child). We are 7 years apart in age, so by the time I was old enough to begin realizing that something wasn't quite right, he had moved away from home. He did not live with us during my teenager years. So it's possible they put the SC label on me once he was gone. I cannot look at the situation objectively enough to figure it out. I never saw her make snarky remarks to him the way she did with me. But maybe she only did that while alone with him. She allowed my brother to do certain things, while disallowing me from those same things. I always saw him as the Golden Child but who the hell knows. It's too confusing.

 

 

I've been trying to improve my relationship to my brother. I noticed that as we began to come closer, both my parents acted weird. They make odd comments about it. My father made some mean spirited jokes. I get this weird feeling they don't want us becoming close. They say they do, but it sounds like they are trying to convince themselves. Perhaps they are worried we could team up against them.

Edited March 22, 2015 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

Trust me, you AND your brother are both SC and GC, depending on the situation. EVERY situation is all about her and she will manipulate each situation to best serve her. And no, she is NOT aware she's doing it. It's a core, basic need for her - to do whatever it takes to soothe herself.

[SpiralOut]

Trust me, you AND your brother are both SC and GC, depending on the situation. EVERY situation is all about her and she will manipulate each situation to best serve her. And no, she is NOT aware she's doing it. It's a core, basic need for her - to do whatever it takes to soothe herself.

 

Okay so what confuses me is what she is trying to soothe herself about? Does she feel threatened in some way? Is she trying to feel like nobody is better than her? Or does she need to just feel that she is in control? I don't understand why on earth she feels the need to do that in the first place. I see it happen sometimes with other people, and it's easily explainable for them - for example, a less attractive woman calling a beautiful woman a whore. But an adult lashing out against a child for no apparent reason? What's that about?

 

 

So the reason she has been getting off my back lately isn't due to her respecting me or caring about my feelings. She is looking out for herself, making sure she isn't embarrassed or put on the spot - because she knows I might do that to her now.

[Auspecial]

Yes that's exactly it.

 

 

I have no idea which of us is the SC or GC (I'm assuming GC means golden child). We are 7 years apart in age, so by the time I was old enough to begin realizing that something wasn't quite right, he had moved away from home. He did not live with us during my teenager years. So it's possible they put the SC label on me once he was gone. I cannot look at the situation objectively enough to figure it out. I never saw her make snarky remarks to him the way she did with me. But maybe she only did that while alone with him. She allowed my brother to do certain things, while disallowing me from those same things. I always saw him as the Golden Child but who the hell knows. It's too confusing.

 

 

I've been trying to improve my relationship to my brother. I noticed that as we began to come closer, both my parents acted weird. They make odd comments about it. My father made some mean spirited jokes. I get this weird feeling they don't want us becoming close. They say they do, but it sounds like they are trying to convince themselves. Perhaps they are worried we could team up against them.

 

 

I find the triangulating (divide and conquer) mentality to be disgusting, especially within a family. Regardless of the reasons, its so destructive and unnecessary. This is why strict NC is many times the only thing that can give relief. If you bond with your brother (as NORMAL parents would want!) she/they will do whatever they can to discredit both of you. But they already do that now, so what is there to lose, if your brother is in agreement?

[Auspecial]

Trust me, you AND your brother are both SC and GC, depending on the situation. EVERY situation is all about her and she will manipulate each situation to best serve her. And no, she is NOT aware she's doing it. It's a core, basic need for her - to do whatever it takes to soothe herself.

 

 

I can't speak to this specific person, but based on m experience with NPD (who also had other overlapping "issues,") I disagree that most NPD are unaware of what they are doing. Why be so covert and sketchy and manipulative, if they didn't know it was wrong on some (or many!) levels?? Its my opinion that they are well aware, but they do not care.

 

They do have a need to absorb others. I think this goes beyond a mental illness.

[SpiralOut]

I am reading The Power of Now and it continuously reminds me of my mother. Taking the ideas from that book and applying it to her..... tells me that her ego has taken full control of her. It feels threatened easily and reacts to protect itself. She probably has "pain bodies" from her past that she never accepted or dealt with, so those take her over too sometimes and that's why she freaks out for reasons that make no sense to other people.

 

 

She has no control of herself.

 

 

I've been lying to myself, thinking maybe she might change because she meditates. She got really into that years ago and seems to be making effort to become conscious. She did a mindfulness course and read a million books on Buddhism. She has calmed down a lot - she was horribly anxious 5 years ago, so much so that I could hardly stand to be around her. But she's still unconscious. She must be, or why else would she continue to act as she does?

 

 

I am almost able to feel sorry for her. Not quite, but almost.

[Auspecial]

Well I hope it works. I still say "Tread Lightly." Dr. Sam Vaknin has a series of videos on you tube where he discusses various psychopathy. He is a self-professed sociopath, so I suppose it is possible to have some insight for some people.

[SpiralOut]

I've been wanting to say this for a long time, but I haven't because I wanted to be "nice." So I'll say it now: my mother is an idiot. Or at least, she behaves idiotically. I don't respect her. I love her, but I don't like her very much. She never should have had kids - she should have gone into therapy long, long ago. I am still confused about why the hell my father married her - he doesn't appear to respect her either, the way he talks about her sometimes. I'm not sure why he stays, but whatever, that's his business.

 

 

I just needed to say that. I'm so tired of treating her as if she's normal when she isn't, and feeling embarrassed by her when people outside the family meet her, and feeling embarrassed by her antics in general. I'm tired of not being able to say out loud what I really think because of how taboo it is for someone to talk badly about their mother. I'm tired of being the bigger person all the time while she ****s all over me. Even as a child I had to be the bigger person. I'm tired of people acting like nothing is wrong even though things are are ****ed up. I'm tired of her insulting me, then having the nerve to act all confused and upset if I dare to stand up for myself. Even standing up for myself I need to walk on eggshells because of how fragile her ego is. I'm tired of wearing kid gloves, of pandering to her every time we speak.

 

 

I'm tired of feeling like a victim when that's not what I am anymore. Why do I still feel victimized? Why do I still feel afraid of her?

[Auspecial]

I'm tired of not being able to say out loud what I really think because of how taboo it is for someone to talk badly about their mother. I'm tired of being the bigger person all the time while she ****s all over me. Even as a child I had to be the bigger person. I'm tired of people acting like nothing is wrong even though things are are ****ed up.

 

I'm tired of feeling like a victim when that's not what I am anymore. Why do I still feel victimized? Why do I still feel afraid of her?

 

 

I think this is a big part of the reason its so hard to go full NC and break away: the importance society places on mothers in general, all the expectations and assumptions. I mean, first you have to get to a place where you are no longer in denial of what is happening, and that can take years. Then once you are no longer in denial, when you try to reach out, generally met with doubt and sometimes even placing blame on you, which further victimizes. It would probably help you a lot to be in a support group for Adult Children of Narcisstic Parents, so you know you aren't alone and there is a large group of people who understand and believe when you are saying "the sky is blue, not polka dotted!" People who haven't experienced a NPD parent or other significant other with NPD in their lives will never get it, and can't really be supportive because its not their reality.

 

Its my opinion that you still feel victimized 1. Because this was programmed into you as a young child, and its also possible your neural pathways are scarred. 2. Because you *are still a victim, because her ability to make you feel like shiI is more developed than your ability to counter her attacks. Her psyche is designed to be destructive so she can take the energy. Your psyche isn't.

 

For myself, I tried to figure it all out for years, and my story is long and not pretty. I tried to have compassion for years. I am finally at the point where I don't grieve it anymore. (The loss of a normal relationship with NPD) I don't feel that the NPD that used to be destructive in my life is really human, and if IT is, I don't care anymore. I think IT is a machine of destruction, and although I understand all the psych jargon involved, I just don't care. Its too late, too much damage has been done. *Maybe* therapy would have helped her years ago, but I tend to doubt that, plus IT wouldn't have gone anyway, and now, none of it matters to me.

 

I hope you will find a sense of your own peace in all of this. I know it is a really difficult thing to grapple with, until you get to a place of acceptance and self-preservation.

[SpiralOut]

Thanks Auspecial, it makes me feel better to see that someone else has dealt with this personality type. Sorry you had to deal with a bunch of crap.

 

 

I am mainly unable to go NC because I don't know how to do that without cutting out my father and brother as well. I am strongly considering pulling them aside and telling them that I can't attend family functions again for a while because being around my mother is hurting me and I just can't be around it anymore.

 

 

So I guess I could still visit town to see them some other time.... on a regular weekend, and stay at a hotel, or ask my bro if I can stay at his place. Then see the two of them and not her. It seems pretty harsh. She's going to know that something is up. So then what do I say to her? Sorry mom but you're a bitch? You abused me? She would act all confused like she always does. It pisses me off so much that she cannot recognize how awful she is.

[Auspecial]

Thanks Auspecial, it makes me feel better to see that someone else has dealt with this personality type. Sorry you had to deal with a bunch of crap.

 

 

I am mainly unable to go NC because I don't know how to do that without cutting out my father and brother as well. I am strongly considering pulling them aside and telling them that I can't attend family functions again for a while because being around my mother is hurting me and I just can't be around it anymore.

 

 

So I guess I could still visit town to see them some other time.... on a regular weekend, and stay at a hotel, or ask my bro if I can stay at his place. Then see the two of them and not her. It seems pretty harsh. She's going to know that something is up. So then what do I say to her? Sorry mom but you're a bitch? You abused me? She would act all confused like she always does. It pisses me off so much that she cannot recognize how awful she is.

 

Thanks, and you are welcome, and I'm sorry you are dealing with a bunch of crap, too!

 

I can't really give advise on this last post, I can only tell you my opinion based on my own experience, and others I have known. Most people who go complete NC only do it after many years of BS, as self survival. For me, I moved back and forth as I could tolerate it. Sometimes, I would take a sabbatical of a year, or sometimes three months. There were times I gave a reason, but most of the time I didn't, I just said I was busy. The times I gave a reason *always* brought repercussions in the form of horrible smear tactics. She was hungry to bring misery to me, since she could no longer do anything directly to me. I often considered moving across the country so I wouldn't have to give excuses. When I had a child I was still in some denial about how extensive her campaigns had gone and how much overall destruction had been caused. Part of me wanted my child to have the nice experience of having a grandmother, as mine was very loving to me and I believe family (that is not soul-crushing) is very important.

 

Later, I realized that was a mistake and I should have taken my child and moved across country, and raised her with a village of strong friendships. By that time, there was more triangulation going on *caused by her* within my family. So, my daughter and my relationship was in danger. I also went through a tough divorce, made worse by her reinforcing more smear campaigns while I was at my emotional worst. After observing some bizarre behavior with her toward me daughter I decided she would never be around my daughter again without my supervision. (What a delightful way to live!)

A lot of ugly things happened b/c of her lack of conscious and desire to harm But being a "church lady," unless someone was around her a lot, many thought she was wonderful. I learned early not to question that b/c then they would question me. Another reason moving far away would have been a better solution.

 

Cut to now, with "medium chill" contact for the past years, my child has been protected from her, and has had the opportunity to figure out for herself that her grandmother is "off." So I don't worry too much about ongoing triangulation, but its still always a concern because of IT's savvy for destruction. Sorry this sounds so dramatic, but its just the truth.

 

The question for you is, are your father and/or brother able and willing to back you? If you are unsure, then being quiet about it is the way to go. In that case, don't say anything harsh about her to them. This would be self protection for you. Going No Contact takes commitment and a thorough realization that things won't effectively change and you have to remove yourself to protect your life. Because it is your life, not hers.

 

For me, my sisters were not strong enough. My father would have been able to, but was disabled and stuck. A whole other story.

 

Its just my opinion that your mother will not be able to ever hear you and your side of this. Its sad and I know very hurtful to you, but I also believe the truth will set you free. Maybe not immediately, but it will.

[Lion Heart]

I could give you my experiences with my mother Spiral but it definitely began like yours. Had a brother 6y younger. We became tighter and tighter over the years. M hated it. She called it "ganging up against" her. We weren't. Just affirming our boundaries AGAIN.

 

Suffice to say I was horrified that Teacher wrote almost everything to you in the way she did. I only found your thread tonight and wished v much that I'd found it sooner. The "suck it up" attitude disgusts me. It's pitiful and is showing no empathy for your desperation in trying to keep the relationship while asserting your boundaries in a very HEALTHY way.

 

And b4 T thinks I have no credibility. I would even if I had no chn because I had a similar mother. Add very physically abusive also who was jailed by police after doing one of her numbers when my twins were 3mths old & DD was 10yo. I now have 4 chn. I completely respect my DD always have! She's been travelling OS by herself to help in missions etc since she was 11yo! I could barely stand it but would I EVER stop my beautiful child because of my insecurities? NEVER. She is now 22yo with a gorgeous man and a son almost 1yo. I respect her completely. I never offer "advice" unless she blatantly asks for it. I have complete faith in my parenting, not that she'll do everything I want her to do but because I want her to do everything SHE wants to do. She told me last week that I am her best friend. I never expected that but it's the biggest compliment I've ever had.

 

Spiral you know what you have to do. Detach. Distance is a good thing. Always stay living a long way away. Do not stay at her house. Insist she never stays at yours. You may be able to maintain low contact but make it lower until you find YOUR comfortable level. You may have to go NC.

 

I've been NC for 12y now. I lost my 39 other family members but most of them are NC with her too now. They never saw her fully until I removed her physical and verbal punching bag - me.

 

Too bad too sad. I'm totally relieved I'm not part of her games of manipulation. It was for my own and my chns protection.

 

Keep contact with your other relatives and affirm "you don't need to know x or y. It's not a topic open for discussion".

 

Good luck

Lion Heart.

[SpiralOut]

So the visit went better than I expected. She didn't pull any funny stuff on me. My bf was with me so I guess she knew better than to do that. He thinks she is really nice. Well yeah she can be, so much so that I almost forget about her nasty side. But it's still there.

 

 

She did that thing again where she confused herself with me. It didn't get to me this time. She kept trying to make me "admit" that I don't like camping, even though I expressed several times that I'm excited to try it out this summer. Yeah it's possible I won't like it but I look forward to trying it. She kept making jokes about how I would rather camp at the Holiday Inn. Her jokes made no sense because they weren't about me, they were about herself. I ignored the jokes completely.

 

 

I'm still getting along pretty well with my brother. At one point we were talking and she said something that made no sense. He told her straight up that what she said didn't pertain to the conversation. I am starting to feel like he's on the same page as me. It's a good feeling.

[SpiralOut]

Confession: she did get under my skin. I have this bad habit of shrugging things off and pretending they didn't happen. Looking back, this one thing happened that is still bothering me.

 

 

I strongly suspect that she played the "I'm stupid" game with me during conversation. She asked a question that she already knew the answer to. Not only had I explained this to her on the phone, but my boyfriend had explained it to her face about 5 minutes ago. He has a name that's difficult for most people to pronounce, as he is of a different background than me. So I call him by nickname. All his friends and colleagues call him by nickname also. Only his family, or other people who speak his language, can pronounce his name properly. My mother knew this - it had been explained to her at least twice.

 

 

It is not a difficult concept to understand. Yet for some reason my mother asked me "why do you call him that? That's not his name."

 

 

 

 

Did you seriously just ask me that question? You know the answer. Also, it is not socially okay to question someone about their choice of nickname for their boyfriend. I would never in a million years chastise another person for using a nickname with their significant other. Unbelievable! Also, she tried to tell me what his name really was and she PRONOUNCED IT WRONG.

 

 

So I am not completely happy with what I said to her. I looked at her for a long time. My brother was sitting there watching us. The first thing I did was correct her pronunciation. I told her that it was wrong, then explained why. I then explained everything I just typed above: that very few people can say his name properly, so that's why we call him by nickname.

 

 

She did not say a single word in response. That was the end of the conversation. I know that my annoyance showed. I could not help but feel that her question wasn't asked out of innocence or true stupidity. I think she was pretending to be stupid in order to try and put me on the spot. A couple of years ago, had she asked me that, I would have been embarrassed. Now? I am not embarrassed at all. Instead I am annoyed and suspicious of her intentions.

 

I wish that I would have just said "You know the answer to that already." Or I could have said "Sometimes people have nicknames for each other." I didn't handle it too badly, but I could have handled it better.

 

 

My god, that woman sometimes.

Edited April 9, 2015 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

I forgot to mention that this whole experience has forced me to find my own inner mother. Because really, dealing with her is like dealing with a little kid, except that I can't put her into a time out. Whenever she acts out, I am forced to go into this weird "motherly" mode where I have to act nice, but stern, and make sure to correct her without making her feel bad.

 

 

By the time I have kids of my own I'll know what to do! And I won't be like her, either. I will ask the future father/husband to keep an eye on me and tell me if I'm out of line. And if I catch myself repeating her mistakes, I'll put myself into therapy. I can be a good mother.

[turnera]

You're doing great, spiral. I'm really proud of you and your growth.

[SpiralOut]

She was trying to belittle me with her question. That's why it pissed me off. And she pretended to be confused, so that I couldn't act angry with her without making myself look bad.

 

 

I also caught her looking at me with an expression of surprise/amazement on her face again - for no apparent reason. It pisses me off when she does that. I pretended to not notice. It's the exact same thing that my ex-bully used to do: act all surprised when she found out I had friends, act amazed when she found out that I do go out and socialize. My mother has that same attitude towards me. It annoys the **** out of me.

 

 

No wonder I had self esteem problems for so long. I still struggle with it. What chance did I have, growing up under those circumstances?

 

 

Anyway, I don't need to worry about her again for a while. I'm not likely to see them again for another few months. I might avoid talking to her on the phone for a while.