I'm currently not speaking to my mother

[SpiralOut]

There's a great little book that therapists recommend a lot to women about that. It's called The Dance Of Anger. It's all about women's inability to put ourselves first, and how to start doing so without ticking everyone off. Good stuff.

 

I have a copy already that I read a couple years ago. It helped somewhat at the time. I should re-read it.

[turnera]

My therapist has told me to read it twice now.

[SpiralOut]

It just occurred to me that I'm smarter than my mother. When I say that I don't just mean more emotionally mature, I mean academically I am smarter than her.

 

I think it might explain some of her behaviour.

[SpiralOut]

I may have posted some of this before. Thinking it through and typing it helps. Insights come to me as I go through my day.

 

Something that has always bothered me is the way my mother would act nicer to other children than to me. She put on such a good show, as a teacher, that I felt I could not speak the truth. Everyone thought she was wonderful and told me so. People may not have believed me. If they did, I believed (at the time) that I could have cost her a job. She wasn't permanent, so they could have easily chosen to not hire her again. So I did not tell anyone how she treated me at home.

 

I learned to lie to myself and suppress my own feelings until I did not know what I truly felt. I had lots of vague, misdirected anger in my youth. I didn't act out in a serious way but the anger was there.

 

I learned to make myself small.

 

Stepping back, I can see how I may have seemed a threat to my mother. I am smarter than her. I have better social skills than her - any awkwardness I do have is from her influence. I am talented, creative. Whatever her talents are she never showed them. It seems weird to me now how she did no activities by herself except perhaps shopping. No sports, no exercise, no hobbies. Her only passion was work and she was often unhappy with her career. It always seemed to me that she was missing something. I still can't put my finger on what it is. My father, brother and myself all had interests and activities. She didn't really do much. It always seemed weird to me. Is it significant somehow?

 

Ah, I have also always instinctively sensed that she prefers teaching kids because she has authority with them. They can't see through her act as easily as an adult might. She is safer with them. Around adults she is a visibly nervous woman. Even around my friends, as I got older, she would act very nervous around.

 

Also she can't stand up for herself. I've witnessed it many times. Even with me she cannot do it. She sits there and waits for my father to say something. He has told her so many times to stand up for herslef but she won't do it. She can't even ask for a booth at the restaurant because she's too scared. It's pathetic, really.

Edited June 17, 2015 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

Part of me is angry at her for living her life that way. It's not completely her fault. I mean, something bad must have happened for her to be that way in the first place. But my god, the woman just turned 60 and she spent her entire life feeling afraid all the time. And she has no real relationship with her only daughter, me. Her own family keeps secrets from her because all three of us know that she can't be told things. She gets upset and makes a big deal about nothing and she spreads secrets.

 

 

I have always felt like the odd one in out in the family who doesn't belong because of how she treats me, but maybe she is the odd one out and she took it out on me. Who knows. Why can't she snap out of it and act normal, if not for my sake than for her own. What a way to live her life.

[SpiralOut]

I am back in touch with my aunt, my father's sister. I've always felt she was more of a mother to me than my actual mother. It felt really good to see her. I'll be going back again in December for her Christmas party.

 

My parents are visiting this weekend. I am a bit nervous. The house is a fixer-upper so I'm sure my mom will come up with some rude remark. I haven't decided how to handle it. Maybe with humour.

[turnera]

Set up a tent outside before she comes. Tell her you figured she wouldn't like it, so you arranged for other accommodations and point to the tent. Or give her a list of local hotels.

[SpiralOut]

Haha. Naw they didn't sleep here. She only made one petty comment about me, that I noticed anyway. At dinner she made a joke to the waitress that was in poor taste. The woman just ignored it.

 

I noticed how she made everything about herself. I didn't feel angry or annoyed. I stayed detached.

[SpiralOut]

The hardest part is dealing with her good moments, when she acts and sounds so loving. I just got an email like that from her. It hurts and I can't articulate why. It would be easier to deal with if she acted mean all the time.

Edited August 21, 2015 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

Oh, that's easy to fix. My IC helped with that.

 

Write out a list of all the bad things she's done. Print it out and tape it to your bathroom mirror and your refrigerator. So you'll see it and notice it and actually read it now and then. And so you know where it is, the next time you deal with her. Next time you deal with her, run right over to the list and read out how she's hurt you. Whew! Crisis averted! You KNOW (remember) she is toxic and you will NOT open yourself up to that again.

[SpiralOut]

Thanks I'll try that. I wonder if this is why I hold grudges against people so easily. I used to forgive and forget so easily, first with my mother, then later on with toxic friends. I got so tired of others taking advantage of me that I stopped trusting people altogether. In certain situations, you really DO need to remember what they did wrong to you because they WILL do it again and again. I have trouble forgiving other people, the ones who actually deserve it.

 

 

I have also always worried that people might not like me. It doesn't matter how kind they are to me. I've always felt wary that others might be putting on an act. They are just waiting for me to trust them so they can show their true face. Most of the time that's not true at all but I can't shake that fear. I am always worried that others don't like me, or that if they do like me they will stop as soon as they get to know the real me. I have missed out on many friendships because of my fear. I push others away.

Edited August 23, 2015 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

Have you ever tried something like this? If you really dedicate yourself, it can work. I tried, but I didn't push myself all the way through the workbook, but I can see how it can alter your perspective of yourself.

 

The Self-Esteem Workbook: Glenn R. Schiraldi: 9781572242524: Amazon.com: Books

[SpiralOut]

I have something like that. I tried it last year and quit after doing two chapters. I keep meaning to try and finish it. I just moved somewhere new. Maybe now is a good time to try again.

 

 

I also have the book Will I Ever be Good Enough: Healing for daughters of narcissistic mothers. I had to stop partway through. It told me that I can't continue with the exercises until I have reached the stage of acceptance. That was last year. Now, I accept how it is. She will never change. She can't change. So, I can keep reading the rest of the book now.

Edited August 25, 2015 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

I figured out why she is nicer on the phone. My father isn't there to save her. She can still be rude but not as bad as she is in person. I think she holds back when she's alone with me. I think she knows I'll have something to say and she won't be able to stand up against me.

 

I'm stronger than her. She's a coward.

[turnera]

Great observation. What will you do with it?

[Qboro90]

It just occurred to me that I'm smarter than my mother. When I say that I don't just mean more emotionally mature, I mean academically I am smarter than her.

 

I think it might explain some of her behaviour.

 

 

Jeez... If you were an observer and read some of the things that you have about your mother what would you think? There is so much bitterness and spite in your words and from what you've listed your mom is just annoying to you and asks you things you don't want to tell her about or is overly worried about your future.

 

Wanting to know if your doctor is a male or female.... Wtf is the big deal there? "He's a male, really nice man around your age mom, he comes highly regarded"

End of discussion, no need to make it a federal case.

 

You snapped at anyone who replied trying to offer you possible perspective from your mothers mindset. "Why are you taking my mothers side?! I told you she's the one with the problems!" .... That's a bit immature.

 

Saying that you were mostly upset because on Mother's Day your mom told a white lie about your whereabouts to your aunt and grandmother. Is that negatively affecting you somehow? Has your aunt or grandmother reached out to you after that and given you guilt for not being there?. Why would your mom want to delve into you not speaking to her in front of her mom and sister on Mother's Day of all days!? Is she supposed to bring up why her daughter has stopped speaking to her and is giving her the silent treatment, that's the real reason she's not here? What's the point of doing that?

 

Sounds like you wanted her to tell your family "I'm an awful mother and my daughter is punishing me for it and I totally deserve it because of the things I've done.... Oh happy Mother's Day everyone"

Not to mention that surely your grandma is a much older woman. Why would your mom want to bring up such a negative situation to her. What's she gonna do about it? If anything it would just upset her and make it a bigger issue than it already is.

 

I'm not saying your mom hasn't crossed the line or overstepped her boundaries through your life. But you yourself even acknowledge that she just wants what's best for you and is fearful of you making the wrong decisions. That's what moms do. Some just always have the worst case scenerio always first in their head. Prolly Bc of her life experiences and upbringing. Thinking that she should act how you want her to act and modernize herself to acquiesce to your needs is unrealistic and not likely to happen.

 

Either learn to forgive and forget... Or learn to see past the negatives and realize the bigger picture which is her caring about your future, or select what information you tell your father if you know it will get back to your mom eventually. If you know that not speaking with her is temporary and you don't intend to do it forever then remember that the longer you wait, the harder it gets and the more time you waste which you'll never get back.

 

I'd hate to think how you'd feel if something happened to her while you weren't speaking. That would be a regret that you'd never live down or forgive yourself for

[SpiralOut]

Jeez... If you were an observer and read some of the things that you have about your mother what would you think? There is so much bitterness and spite in your words and from what you've listed your mom is just annoying to you and asks you things you don't want to tell her about or is overly worried about your future.

 

 

When a daughter of a narcissistic mother is in recovery, it is normal for her to feel anger. She goes through a grieving process and anger is part of that process. The bitterness you speak of is completely normal. This is not a case of a mother being "just annoying."

 

 

 

You snapped at anyone who replied trying to offer you possible perspective from your mothers mindset. "Why are you taking my mothers side?! I told you she's the one with the problems!" .... That's a bit immature.

 

 

A daughter of a narcissistic mother has spent her entire life seeing things from her mother's point of view. She has been taught to stifle her feelings and ignore them because mother's feelings are more important. When she is in recovery, it is normal for her to want to see things her own way and to have her own views validated. That is extremely important. The recovery process requires the daughter to feel her own feelings and speak her thoughts, to have her own voice, rather than continuously seeing things through her mother's eyes. When someone is in recovery, it is not helpful to tell her to look at things from her mother's point of view. It is taking a step backwards.

 

 

And yes, my mother is the one with the problem. She has a personality disorder.

 

Saying that you were mostly upset because on Mother's Day your mom told a white lie about your whereabouts to your aunt and grandmother. Is that negatively affecting you somehow? Has your aunt or grandmother reached out to you after that and given you guilt for not being there?. Why would your mom want to delve into you not speaking to her in front of her mom and sister on Mother's Day of all days!? Is she supposed to bring up why her daughter has stopped speaking to her and is giving her the silent treatment, that's the real reason she's not here? What's the point of doing that? Sounds like you wanted her to tell your family "I'm an awful mother and my daughter is punishing me for it and I totally deserve it because of the things I've done.... Oh happy Mother's Day everyone"

 

 

There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. It is okay to simply say "we are not getting along very well right now, but I don't want to talk about it." That would not ruin Mother's Day, nor would it cause anyone to feel horribly upset. It is not shameful to say that. It is normal for families to have disagreements at times. I do not admire dishonesty in a person. Perhaps this incident upset me because it disappointed me to see my mother being dishonest when she had no real need to be. Looking back, I no longer feel angry. Instead, I think it is very sad that she feels the need to lie to her own family.

 

 

I'm not saying your mom hasn't crossed the line or overstepped her boundaries through your life. But you yourself even acknowledge that she just wants what's best for you and is fearful of you making the wrong decisions. That's what moms do.

 

 

That doesn't make it okay to overstep boundaries. It is possible to want what is best for your child AND respect their boundaries at the same time.

 

 

Some just always have the worst case scenerio always first in their head. Prolly Bc of her life experiences and upbringing. Thinking that she should act how you want her to act and modernize herself to acquiesce to your needs is unrealistic and not likely to happen.

 

 

You are right. It is not realistic for me to expect her to act how I want her to act. Wanting her to show empathy and genuine interest towards me is not realistic. She is incapable of doing either of those things. She will never change. Accepting this fact has been difficult, but I accept it now.

 

Either learn to forgive and forget... Or learn to see past the negatives and realize the bigger picture which is her caring about your future, or select what information you tell your father if you know it will get back to your mom eventually. If you know that not speaking with her is temporary and you don't intend to do it forever then remember that the longer you wait, the harder it gets and the more time you waste which you'll never get back.

 

I'd hate to think how you'd feel if something happened to her while you weren't speaking. That would be a regret that you'd never live down or forgive yourself for

 

 

Please read the rest of this thread. I am already back in contact with her and have been for the past year.

Edited August 30, 2015 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

Great observation. What will you do with it?

 

I will think on it for a while. It occurred to me today that if I wanted to, I could do exactly to her what she did to me. I could bully her in such a way that she would be unable to call me out on it. But I am not going to do that. I don't want to be like her.

 

 

I want her to avoid belittling me ALL the time, not just while she's alone with me. Therefore, I need to figure out how to deal with my father. I have difficulty standing up to her when he is with us because he interferes. He is hypersensitive to any perceived "criticism" against her. If I say anything that he interprets as even slightly offensive, he jumps in to save her - no matter that I am standing up for myself against her!!! So far as I see it I have two choices: a) say something to him, or b) get better at sugar coating my responses.

 

I will need to think on that for a bit. He has privately complained to me about her before, so he might listen to me if I ask him to step back and stop interfering. I would have to word it in just the right way. I am nervous about talking to him. I would have to point out the elephant in the room. He has gotten angry in the past when I tried pointing it out before. Maybe if I explain that I am trying to improve my relationship with my mother, he will understand.

 

 

And by "improve" I mean set firmer boundaries with her, not become closer to her since connecting with her is impossible. If I can get my mother off my back (or at least mostly off of it), I would feel more comfortable visiting my family, and I would visit them more often.

Edited August 30, 2015 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

I see two things that will help. First, you need to talk to your father privately and explain to him EXACTLY what you've learned about your mom's disorder. It will probably be a relief to him to know exactly why HIS life has been hell all this time. Explain to him just what you told Qboro, as it is a very accurate description of how to effectively deal with someone like your mom. It will help him understand why YOU are now interacting with her differently and why you NEED to. Tell him it has nothing to do with y'all's relationship, but it's something you need to do to move forward in a healthy way for YOU. You might even give him some reading material on it.

 

Second, you need to read up more on boundaries and consequences. Get REALLY GOOD at them. So they come naturally to you. A good easy, often recommended by therapists book to start with is The Dance Of Anger, which was written for women to learn how to say no to people who have come to expect them to 'do' stuff for them, without making those people think you now hate them. Good stuff. But there are a ton of books out there on boundaries and consequences.

 

Which, if you're not familiar, goes like this: A boundary is something YOU don't want in your life - an action by someone else, for example. A consequence is not something you do TO that person for doing it, as you might think. It is, instead - and since we cannot make another person do what we want, we have no control over them - something that WE do in OUR life...to avoid that action another person does.

 

Easy example:

Boundary: I won't let people yell at me.

Consequence: I will leave the room any time someone yells at me, and come back later to see if they can then talk to me without yelling. If they still yell, I will AGAIN leave the room. And so on.

 

See how it doesn't require anyone else's participation? It's what YOU do to protect yourself from dysfunction. You are free to inform other people of your boundaries/consequences, but you don't have to. In some cases it's beneficial to tell them ahead of time, like if it's an ongoing problem. I think that might be a good idea with your mom. "Mom, I don't like being told I'm a failure. I love my job and I frankly don't care if you think it's worthless and I also don't want to HEAR it from you. So if you tell me again that I'm a failure - or any version of that - I'm going to go home. Just warning you now." And then you have to actually DO the consequence, or it is no longer a consequence, just a threat - and an empty one, at that.

 

Trust me, she WILL learn what your boundaries are, over time, if you consistently initiate those resulting consequences. I had to do it with my H and his anger - left the room every time he got mad, and boy, has he changed his demeanor. He doesn't get mad at anyone ELSE in his life, why me? Because I LET him. Now I no longer let him, so he has learned to control himself around me just like he controls himself around everyone else.

[SpiralOut]

I have three books on boundaries. LOL. I've been practicing being assertive for the past few years. I am much, much better than I used to be. I still have problems with putting consequences into place. I need more practice doing that.

 

 

I will think about what to say to my father. I'm really nervous about doing it, but if I phrase things the right way, the conversation should go okay.

 

 

Two nights ago I went to a BBQ and met a woman who reminded me somewhat of my mother. One minute she's being nice, then suddenly she's making odd comments. She openly judged my lifestyle, saying "no offense" after every rude comment she made. I dealt with it really well. I grinned at her the whole time and cheerfully answered her questions. It struck me as funny for some reason. I had great responses to everything. I wish I could react that way to my mother - just laugh off every ridiculous thing she says.

 

 

For now I'll spend some more time with the books. It's helping.

[turnera]

You can't laugh off your mom's comments because you need her/want her to love you and validate you. Mothers are SUPPOSED to provide unconditional love to their kids, but it doesn't always happen; so you go through life seeking it.

 

And a boundary isn't a boundary if you don't use the consequence; it's just a threat (spoken OR unspoken). And the more you try to speak a boundary but don't follow through with your consequence, the less people listen to you or respect you.

[SpiralOut]

In the spirit of enforcing boundaries, I have decided to give my 2 weeks notice at work this friday. The way that they treat us is awful. The more I go through recovery, the more I realize that I can't stay here. It duplicates my mother's treatment of me in many ways - nothing I do is ever good enough and everything is always my fault.

 

This needs to be done.

[turnera]

BTDT. You will feel SO much better being away from that toxic environment.

[SpiralOut]

Since making the decision I suddenly feel more confident about the job hunting I'll have to do. I felt daunted by the idea before. Now it's like I can do anything I set my mind to. I don't put up with crap anymore because I deserve better.

 

I'll post an update in a few weeks or so. I'll be dealing with my mother again next month for thanksgiving.

[KittyKat67]

Well, I'm not taking your mothers side but honestly it pains me to hear you are cutting her out of your life.

 

 

As for mothers day, you made no effort to see her, she defended you and herself. I do not believe she is intentionally trying to hurt you. Maybe I feel that because my mother is similar and I see it differently now at I'm an older seasoned mom myself.

 

Everyone has faults. Perhaps you two are not getting along because you are similar? I don't know really.

 

What I do know is this.........time here with family is short lived. Take the high road and don't take everything so personal.

 

My brother spent 15 years in therapy because of our mom. I have since told him, save your money and 'get over it'. He never had children and has no clue what it's like at times. Parents do the best they can with what they got, end of story. Despite that they love you unconditionally whether you want to believe it or not.

 

Being independent is fine. When she calls answer what you want and leave the rest. You being upset is giving her the control over you. When you can let it go in one ear and out the other you have come to a good place. Had to do that myself years ago.

 

I'm taking care of my parents now, she 78 and he's 82. She's still just as controlling and down right mean at times, but she's who she is and that's still my mother. My brother wouldn't lift a finger for them and that's fine, his choice, but I know someday he will regret not having them around.(sooner than not because they are both very I'll at this point and I'm running myself ragged taking care of them and my two young adults).

 

I regret the time I lost with them in the last twenty years, by being across the country from them. If I could get it back I would in an instant. I moved them here a year ago because of failing health. It's been a long road, and mind you, the things my mother has done and said to me have been horrible. She called my brother three years ago and told him I was stealing money from their bank account. Well, no such thing was going on at all, but I was humiliated by my brother completely. My mom insists now she never said that, but I know better. Thing is, I could have been mad and cut them off, but I realize now that these are small things in the big picture. My mom may crap all over me, I'm not a door mat, I just don't let it get to me. Why? Because it makes no difference, she's old and I'm her only daughter.

 

I didn't mean to drag on about this, sorry. It's just I think I really know the position you're in because I have lived it at length. You cannot change her, you must change yourself so you can just deal with her. When you do that, you might find that's she's not so bad and you can be friends. I'm like pollyanna though, I just think that people should find the good in others and shrug off the bad, if you love someone that is...........

 

 

I have to say that i think its absurd and rediculous that you tell her to get over it..REALLY? That is your perspective and its a free country so yes you get to voice your opinion, but so do I. Obviously her mother crossed boundries and we don't really know through her posts to what extent as its hard to physically convey all the emotions associated with the pain. Some people are born more sensitive to others, as some people are born with a tougher persona. It seems as though you have "gotten over " whatever it is you need to but honestly, thats not a solutions, thats your opinion. Getting over something like a toxic mother daughter relationship has soo many layers to it that you have no clue about it really. You have done what works for you but simply getting over it isn't as easy for some people as the abuse that can happen through the years doesn't warrent just getting over it. Sometimes cutting ties is the answer, sometimes it isn't. Soooo telling someone to get over it sound just as dismissive as an abusive parent who can't understand how deeply a person may have been affected.