Compromises

[cocorico]

 

cocorico, I also don't understand how you can say you would never have an R with someone who didn't share your values but you also say having an A was against MM's values but not against yours. Doesn't sound like you shared values with him.

 

I addressed that elsewhere.

 

.

And doesn't it bother you that the person you have an R with has to compromise his values to have an R with you. To love someone is usually to want to bring out the best in them, not compromising their values.

 

The R did bring out the best in him. That was why he was prepared to make that compromise. Keeping a "secret" from a bully was not a big deal compromise, IMO. Small price to pay for what he got instead. And of course he did not *have* to compromise his values to have an R with me, only to start an R with me. Once he dumped her his values weren't compromised at all.

[cocorico]

You can be with a cheater but can't be a cheater? The logic escapes me.

 

 

I guess if you look at people in As as " cheaters" then perhaps logic will escape you. I prefer to look at people as people and to understand why they act as they do rather than labelling them with pejorative names.

 

I do not consider myself bound by other people's promises - that is on them, not me - but I do consider myself bound by my own. I can't explain it any more simply than that.

[cocorico]

 

Compromising our values always brings shame and sooner or later we all have to face it, no matter how many different ways we try to paint it or explain it.

 

it was more of a compromise of his values to remain in a R with her than it was for him to have a R with me. And yes, staying with her for so long did bring him shame and self-hatred, and also hatred of her later on.

[alexandria35]

I don't see things like deciding which restaurant to eat at, or which music to listen to, as compromise. Those are minor issues and IMO swings and roundabouts - you choose today, I'll choose tomorrow. We agree on most of that kind of stuff anyway.

 

To me compromise is about bigger stuff, like how you bring up kids or whether you celebrate Christmas and frankly if something is important to me like my values then I'm sticking by them and I'd choose my values above a R anyday. Some would not have a R with someone that compromised my values and I would never have an R with someone who did not share my values especially on the important stuff. So no, I don't compromise but no I don't expect the other person to do "all the bending". I want a partner not a slave, but I want someone whose values align with mine. I could never love or even shag someone who voted Tory or who cheated on their taxes, for example.

 

I said he made several compromises, not "many" by which I meant things like he compromised his values by having an A, it's not against my values so I did not compromise on that. He also made compromises such as choosing to spend holidays with me instead of playing happy families, by being more open than he might have chosen with his colleagues about his private life by including me as his partner openly in professional contexts, etc. but those were due to his situation and so those were his to manage and not mine to worry about.

 

I see contradictions in this and your following post. First of all has someone who claims to place their values above all else, even love and relationships, I find it strange that you could love or respect someone who is willing to compromise their values. You said that you would never even sleep with someone if they cheated on their taxes. I thought it strange that it's okay with you to cheat on your spouse but not on your taxes but then I assumed that cheating within a committed relationship is somehow not against your values, in some weird way. But then in your later post you declare that "cheating" is indeed against your values. So you state that place your values above all else and that you would never compromise them. Then you state that cheating is against your values. Then you choose to hook up with a guy who does compromise his values as you have just told us, and he cheats. LOL...if that's not compromising ones values...

[MissBee]

He shares my views on infidelity in general, but "having an A" ie having to be the unfaithful spouse and not be fully honest with his BS went against his values.

 

 

 

It was his choice. We had the discussion. He decided at that time that it was more important to him to have the R with me than it was to be completely open and honest with his BS. He was prepared to make that compromise because the benefits of the R were more important to him than the costs of the compromise. That was his choice as a consenting adult, made freely, and this, his responsibility to bear the consequences of.

 

 

 

The rationale is: he is an adult, able to take responsibility for his own decisions and choices. I refuse to patronise him by deciding what is good or bad for him - that is his choice to make, not mine.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I suppose for me, the rhetoric of it being his choice is a moot point, as of course an A is the participant's choice.

 

All of us date consenting adults...well let me not say all...most of us . Therefore the choices they make are theirs, goes without saying. Yet the choices our partners make affect us and making a choice that would leave them conflicted spills over into the health of the relationship. That's how I view it. If my partner chooses to rob a bank, embezzle, cheat, run a red light etc..it is his choice to make, yet those choices affect me, if I love him and have a life with him. The choices he makes also color how I view him...as we're a sum result of our choices.

 

That said...not addressing you specifically, but just the sentiments you have shared, that I've seen other OW make as well, of the MM's choice to cheat " is none of my business". I wonder how true it is? Again, not asking you specifically cocorico...just thinking generally. I hardly see them respond like that about other choices he makes and many seem to care a great deal and deem it their business to know other stuff that are also his own choice and even claim they have a say...yet the cheating aspect is hands off, he's an adult...not my business. I wonder if what's deemed "not my business" is selectively chosen, so that one can separate themselves and their culpability.

Edited July 10, 2012 by MissBee

[woinlove]

it was more of a compromise of his values to remain in a R with her than it was for him to have a R with me. And yes, staying with her for so long did bring him shame and self-hatred, and also hatred of her later on.

 

How is this bringing out the best in him?

 

And, I recall you said the affair lasted 3-4 years, which is a long time to go against one's values. In fact, I would not really refer to them as one's values, given that time frame. More like the values one would like others to think one has. I see plenty of big compromises all around.

[mercy]

it was more of a compromise of his values to remain in a R with her than it was for him to have a R with me. And yes, staying with her for so long did bring him shame and self-hatred, and also hatred of her later on.

 

 

He blames her for himself compromising his values? Oh the silliness of man.

[cocorico]

I see contradictions in this and your following post. First of all has someone who claims to place their values above all else, even love and relationships, I find it strange that you could love or respect someone who is willing to compromise their values. You said that you would never even sleep with someone if they cheated on their taxes. I thought it strange that it's okay with you to cheat on your spouse but not on your taxes but then I assumed that cheating within a committed relationship is somehow not against your values, in some weird way. But then in your later post you declare that "cheating" is indeed against your values. So you state that place your values above all else and that you would never compromise them. Then you state that cheating is against your values. Then you choose to hook up with a guy who does compromise his values as you have just told us, and he cheats. LOL...if that's not compromising ones values...

 

I don't understand where you see a contradiction.

 

I don't hold monogamy in high regard, so I don't view infidelity as a sin. I don't equate infidelity with cheating as a blanket category, no. In some cases infidelity may involve cheating, but not in every case. But either way, it's not a big deal to me.

 

So no, infidelity is not against my values. Cheating on your taxes is. No shades of grey there for me. That's just wrong IMO.

 

I did not say "cheating" was against my values. I said cheating on taxes was. And I said I would never "cheat" in that if I made a promise I feel bound by it. I consider myself bound by promises I make, not by promises other people make. Or by promises other people are assumed to have made whether or not they explicitly made them or in what context (like a MM).

[alexandria35]

You also stated that you could never be with someone who doesn't share your values. What? Cheating is against your values, but you chose to be with someone who cheated his way out of his relationship. Which also meant lying, being weak, indecisive, dishonest, etc. Are some of those against your values too? I suppose he tells you that he now shares your values, but what difference does it make what he claims his values are? You have already witnessed him compromising his values so his values don't mean much.

[cocorico]

He blames her for himself compromising his values? Oh the silliness of man.

 

No. He blames her for her own actions. And he blames himself for putting up with them for so long, thus compromising his self respect and his values.

[woinlove]

I don't understand where you see a contradiction.

 

I don't hold monogamy in high regard, so I don't view infidelity as a sin. I don't equate infidelity with cheating as a blanket category, no. In some cases infidelity may involve cheating, but not in every case. But either way, it's not a big deal to me.

 

So no, infidelity is not against my values. Cheating on your taxes is. No shades of grey there for me. That's just wrong IMO.

 

I did not say "cheating" was against my values. I said cheating on taxes was. And I said I would never "cheat" in that if I made a promise I feel bound by it. I consider myself bound by promises I make, not by promises other people make. Or by promises other people are assumed to have made whether or not they explicitly made them or in what context (like a MM).

 

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by infidelity because the dictionary meaning is synonymous with the way cheating is used (i.e. informally used to mean unfaithful). Infidelity means "The action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner."

 

Perhaps you simply mean sex outside of marriage, which in itself does not imply infidelity if there is an agreement between the spouses. Do you simply mean that "sex outside of the marriage" does not imply cheating or infidelity?

[cocorico]

Thanks for the response.

 

I suppose for me, the rhetoric of it being his choice is a moot point, as of course an A is the participant's choice.

 

All of us date consenting adults...well let me not say all...most of us . Therefore the choices they make are theirs, goes without saying. Yet the choices our partners make affect us and making a choice that would leave them conflicted spills over into the health of the relationship. That's how I view it. If my partner chooses to rob a bank, embezzle, cheat, run a red light etc..it is his choice to make, yet those choices affect me, if I love him and have a life with him. The choices he makes also color how I view him...as we're a sum result of our choices.

 

That said...not addressing you specifically, but just the sentiments you have shared, that I've seen other OW make as well, of the MM's choice to cheat " is none of my business". I wonder how true it is? Again, not asking you specifically cocorico...just thinking generally. I hardly see them respond like that about other choices he makes and many seem to care a great deal and deem it their business to know other stuff that are also his own choice and even claim they have a say...yet the cheating aspect is hands off, he's an adult...not my business. I wonder if what's deemed "not my business" is selectively chosen, so that one can separate themselves and their culpability.

 

I have never said it was not my business. Obviously it was very much my business: if he did not make that compromise there would have been no A. But it did say it was his choice and his responsibility, not mine, which is a very different thing.

 

Which would be exactly the same as if he robbed a bank, or any of your other examples. Of course they would be my business, but I don't see them as my choice or my responsibility either.

[MissBee]

I see contradictions in this and your following post. First of all has someone who claims to place their values above all else, even love and relationships, I find it strange that you could love or respect someone who is willing to compromise their values. You said that you would never even sleep with someone if they cheated on their taxes. I thought it strange that it's okay with you to cheat on your spouse but not on your taxes but then I assumed that cheating within a committed relationship is somehow not against your values, in some weird way. But then in your later post you declare that "cheating" is indeed against your values. So you state that place your values above all else and that you would never compromise them. Then you state that cheating is against your values. Then you choose to hook up with a guy who does compromise his values as you have just told us, and he cheats. LOL...if that's not compromising ones values...

 

The disconnect for me (and that's because of my own values)...is how one feels comfortable with choices a partner makes that are discordant for their partner?

 

When I love someone I don't want to see them in pain, hurt, conflicted etc. I always want the best for them and while they are the one who has the last say on their choices...I'm gonna gve my 2 cents, particularly as it relates to their choice of a relationship with me. We're not talking about a friend here. My friend is an A. That is not my choice or value..it's not even her value either, but I can't weigh in on that choice, unless she asks for my input. However, I can weigh in on the choice of a man to cheat to be with ME. Of course I can! No one can decide to be with me without my consent So that's unfortunately not only "his choice to make".

 

If I care about him and he's expressing he wants me but doesn't value cheating...I couldn't in good conscience accept his choice to do it anyway. Sorry. I can't. My response would be towards pushing him to an alternative that doesn't have him compromise his values. I suppose back in the day I would have accepted his choice and framed it as none of my business...

 

I remember clear as day when I was 17 and still a virgin and I had a boyfriend who was not and we were hanging out and it got to that point...as we had dated and done "everything else". I remember thinking, without his pressure, that maybe I should just go ahead and do it, since I'm sure he wants it. I agreed and knowing me as he did and caring about me, he kept asking if I was sure I wanted to and I said yes about twice, unconvincingly, and he told me he didn't believe me and he doesn't want me to make a choice I'm going to regret. We didn't end up doing it and I'm glad because he was right. He was a sweet guy. I knew he truly cared about me, because even though it was my choice to make, he already knew my stance on it and he was smart enough to know that had I done it, I'd have regretted it perhaps or resented him. Most guys wouldn't care...they'd push ahead and then probably say, well you shouldn't have agreed then. I suppose that is what I want in a relationship....someone who can put their desires aside (horny 17 yr old male, he needs an award ) and think of what's best for me and someone who reminds me of my values when it seems like I'm forgetting it ---not someone who deems it none of their business, especially if me compromising it will be beneficial to them.

[cocorico]

How is this bringing out the best in him?

 

And, I recall you said the affair lasted 3-4 years, which is a long time to go against one's values. In fact, I would not really refer to them as one's values, given that time frame. More like the values one would like others to think one has. I see plenty of big compromises all around.

 

People often compromise their values for extended periods of time. That does not necessarily change their values, but it does often lead to alienation or depression. Ask any proper psychologist.

 

An example is someone who cannot find work who has to sign on for benefits. It might really go against their benefits to be a "freeloader" as they see it whe they feel they should be contributing to the economy but yet they are forced through circumstance to do what they are not comfortable with, until they are able to effect positive change for themselves, in this case finding a job.

 

In his case the cognitive dissonance did get to him and he went to counselling to resolve it and that's why he left her to resolve the disjuncture between what he was doing and what he felt he ought to be doing.

[woinlove]

 

So no, infidelity is not against my values.

 

if I made a promise I feel bound by it. I consider myself bound by promises I make.

 

These two statements seem contradictory since infidelity by definition means being unfaithful, breaking a promise. One can practise infidelity in an open marriage by violating the specific agreements the couple have made - for example, lying about a outside sexual relationship when the agreement is to be honest. Again, perhaps you mean something other than infidelity.

[cocorico]

You also stated that you could never be with someone who doesn't share your values. What? Cheating is against your values, but you chose to be with someone who cheated his way out of his relationship. Which also meant lying, being weak, indecisive, dishonest, etc. Are some of those against your values too? I suppose he tells you that he now shares your values, but what difference does it make what he claims his values are? You have already witnessed him compromising his values so his values don't mean much.

 

He does not "tell me he shares my values". I see his values enacted in how he chooses to live.

 

And no, as I've stated repeatedly, "cheating" is not against my values. Nor is not confessing to a toxic bully, even though he had a problem with that. He did not lie to her. He may have been weak, and struggled with decisiveness or at least giving effect to decisions, but I am not some fascist with no tolerance for people's struggles. He compromised one value - if you can even call it a value - by not telling her immediately but he has resolved the issues that led to that situation in counselling. His core values are intact, stronger than ever. And that has nothing to do with claims and everything to do with observation.

[cocorico]

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by infidelity because the dictionary meaning is synonymous with the way cheating is used (i.e. informally used to mean unfaithful). Infidelity means "The action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner."

 

Perhaps you simply mean sex outside of marriage, which in itself does not imply infidelity if there is an agreement between the spouses. Do you simply mean that "sex outside of the marriage" does not imply cheating or infidelity?

 

Infidelity means being unfaithful, yes. I gather that some ( or perhaps even most) Americans see that as identical to cheating but cheating means something gather different if you look it up in a proper dictionary like the Oxford English dictionary. Your " informal" use is not as universal as you. Ay choose to project.

 

I use the word cheating as defined by the Oxford englsih dictionary, not some online dictionary of informal American usage.

[woinlove]

Infidelity means being unfaithful, yes. I gather that some ( or perhaps even most) Americans see that as identical to cheating but cheating means something gather different if you look it up in a proper dictionary like the Oxford English dictionary. Your " informal" use is not as universal as you. Ay choose to project.

 

I use the word cheating as defined by the Oxford englsih dictionary, not some online dictionary of informal American usage.

 

I don't have any problem with how you are using cheating (as the dictionary and informal usages are not so different, only a matter of what one applies it to). It is how you are using infidelity that I don't understand. How can you have no problem with infidelity and yet feel that promises you make are important and should be honored? It is that contradiction that I don't understand.

[cocorico]

These two statements seem contradictory since infidelity by definition means being unfaithful, breaking a promise. One can practise infidelity in an open marriage by violating the specific agreements the couple have made - for example, lying about a outside sexual relationship when the agreement is to be honest. Again, perhaps you mean something other than infidelity.

 

Infidelity *in general* is not against my values. But if I myself personally make a promise to be faithful I would keep it - not because it was about being faithful, but because it was a pro use *i* had made.

 

If my neighbour is unfaithful he is not compromising my values at all and I have no beef with him. But if I personally made such a promise I would keep it ( or renegotiate).

[woinlove]

By the way, here is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of cheat:

 

verb

1 [no object] act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination:

she always cheats at cards

[with object] deceive or trick:

he had cheated her out of everything she had

informal be sexually unfaithful:

his wife was cheating on him

 

Even the formal definition describes the informal one quite well, just the informal one implies a specific object.

[frozensprouts]

You also stated that you could never be with someone who doesn't share your values. What? Cheating is against your values, but you chose to be with someone who cheated his way out of his relationship. Which also meant lying, being weak, indecisive, dishonest, etc. Are some of those against your values too? I suppose he tells you that he now shares your values, but what difference does it make what he claims his values are? You have already witnessed him compromising his values so his values don't mean much.

 

 

sounds like values can be very plastic things...they can molded and shaped so that someone can do as they wish and get what they want without any qualms...

funny thing is, those who do this with respect to their actions towards others do not tend to be appreciative when it is done to them

[MissBee]

Infidelity means being unfaithful, yes. I gather that some ( or perhaps even most) Americans see that as identical to cheating but cheating means something gather different if you look it up in a proper dictionary like the Oxford English dictionary. Your " informal" use is not as universal as you. Ay choose to project.

 

I use the word cheating as defined by the Oxford englsih dictionary, not some online dictionary of informal American usage.

 

So what's the difference according to you then?

 

I think hairs are being split...as frankly, informal uses of words carry as much weight as formal, and dictionaries have both. If you understand most Americans use the word cheating to mean X...and a lot of us here are Americans, what would be the point of using some obtuse meaning (without explaining it) then acting like we're the daft ones?

 

I'm not originally from America so I have two cultural references for using words. However, when I converse with people, I switch my references to suit who I'm speaking with. I also clarify my terms so I and my conversation partners are on the same page. What's the point of me deliberately using a certain connotation I know doesn't resonate with most in the setting, then when they of course are confused or are responding based on the common understanding...I act snobby?

 

In any case the OED defines cheating in several ways :

 

verb

1 [no object] act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage:

she always cheats at cards

[with object] gain an advantage over or deprive of something by using unfair or deceitful methods; defraud:

he had cheated her out of everything she had

informal be sexually unfaithful:

his wife was cheating on him

 

Do you mean something different from any of those definitions? As most here are speaking of the last two in particular when cheating is discussed.

[woinlove]

Infidelity *in general* is not against my values. But if I myself personally make a promise to be faithful I would keep it - not because it was about being faithful, but because it was a pro use *i* had made.

 

If my neighbour is unfaithful he is not compromising my values at all and I have no beef with him. But if I personally made such a promise I would keep it ( or renegotiate).

 

When I say values like loyalty and honesty are important to me, I mean I strive to live my life according to these values, to encourage them in others, to bring people into my close circle who share these values, and to avoid situations which compromise these values in myself or in those I connect with. I take it you mean something different?

[MissBee]

All relationships involve compromise we know.

 

What are some of the compromises you and your AP have made in your relationship?

 

Do you feel like you both equally compromise or do you feel one of you has to compromise more than the other?

 

Do you feel you compromise more/less/differently than in non-A relationships?

 

Have you ever felt like they're getting a better deal than you are from the situation OR do you feel like they do all they can to keep you happy and satisfied?

Thanks guys!

 

To answer my own questions:

 

I did not feel like we equally compromised in the A. I felt like I compromised more with him getting a better deal. I didn't want to share, but to be with him, I had to compromise and share. I wasn't faithful to him, yet perhaps I compromised myself being able to truly date other men. As while I dated here and there, I was never invested or open to truly liking or loving another, as I was inlove with him.

 

I suppose he felt like he had to compromise in terms of my fidelity to him. He was possessive and jealous and in a normal circumstance I'm sure he'd never tolerate his woman being with others...yet although it bothered him with me, he knew he could only whine and complain but couldn't stop it.

 

I don't really think he felt like cheating was a problem, so I don't think he felt he was compromising his values. I compromised mine in that regard. I think I was more concerned about the cheating and felt more bothered and conflicted than him. I think As are just one kind of problematic relationship, so I'd say, since I've been with other emotionally unavailable men, in the A, I just compromised differently...but have been in single Rs where I compromised too. Neither state of affairs (no pun intended ) was good.

[maysapphires]

What are some of the compromises you and your AP have made in your relationship?

 

I was really against cheating, emotional and physical. I have never cheated nor helped someone else cheat before this relationship, so being with him in general is a compromise.

 

Do you feel like you both equally compromise or do you feel one of you has to compromise more than the other?

 

I think it's impossible to equally compromise. We both do in different ways and some days I give in a little more and other days he does. In our relationship he does a lot of compromising as my happiness comes first. Anything I really ask of him gets done in a timely manner even if it creates more stress in his life. But on the other hand I compromise a lot just to be in the relationship.

 

Do you feel you compromise more/less/differently than in non-A relationships?

 

Definitely differently, as I've never started a relationship with someone who was already in a relationship but not more. My last relationship I did a lot of unhealthy compromising and sacrificed my happiness. I took a 2 year break and then met MM. The compromising I do now goes against what I strongly believed yet strangely brings me a lot of happiness.

 

Have you ever felt like they're getting a better deal than you are from the situation OR do you feel like they do all they can to keep you happy and satisfied?

 

I don't feel like either of us are getting a better deal. He does all he can to bring me happiness and I do the same for him. We don't promise to be with each other forever or marriage or kids. We just agree to stay together as long both of us are happy.