Religious/spiritual perspectives regarding prostitution

[Mme. Chaucer]

Moderator note:

 

Below are various posts from a discussion which began regarding why people think lowly of prostitution and I'm moving the religion/spiritual discussion here because the nuances of the differences in people's religious/spiritual belief systems are not relevant to the general topic and this is the proper venue for their discussion.

 

Posts are ordered by their time stamps in the original thread and without prejudice. As always, community guidelines are to be adhered to. Thanks.

 

 

We are arguing here with people who, because of the organized religion they have chosen to participate in, believe that SEX (fornication) is basically "bad."

 

SEX is supposed, according to this belief system, to belong EXCLUSIVELY in the marital bed - between a "church married" man and woman.

 

That's IT.

 

All society, laws, sexualities, desires, and freedoms are to be sublimated or convoluted in order to support this belief.

 

They do not believe that people are free to do with their own bodies (or hearts) what they please.

 

There is no point in arguing with people who don't have any interest in facts.

 

It's fun to Google some of the erstwhile pinnacles of this sterling belief system, such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakkar, and learn about how they "practiced what they preached."

Edited July 9, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Nicomis]

We are arguing here with people who, because of the organized religion they have chosen to participate in, believe that SEX (fornication) is basically "bad."

 

SEX is supposed, according to this belief system, to belong EXCLUSIVELY in the marital bed - between a "church married" man and woman.

 

That's IT.

 

All society, laws, sexualities, desires, and freedoms are to be sublimated or convoluted in order to support this belief.

 

They do not believe that people are free to do with their own bodies (or hearts) what they please.

 

There is no point in arguing with people who don't have any interest in facts.

 

It's fun to Google some of the erstwhile pinnacles of this sterling belief system, such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakkar, and learn about how they "practiced what they preached."

 

I don't just like this, I love it so much I may do nasty things to my computer screen. If someone doesn't believe in prostitution, I invite them not to **** hookers. If certain priests could freely seek out prostitutes, they might leave the little boys alone. But I will stop there. Not trying to offend anybody.

[KathyM]

We are arguing here with people who, because of the organized religion they have chosen to participate in, believe that SEX (fornication) is basically "bad."

 

SEX is supposed, according to this belief system, to belong EXCLUSIVELY in the marital bed - between a "church married" man and woman.

 

That's IT.

 

All society, laws, sexualities, desires, and freedoms are to be sublimated or convoluted in order to support this belief.

 

They do not believe that people are free to do with their own bodies (or hearts) what they please.

 

There is no point in arguing with people who don't have any interest in facts.

 

It's fun to Google some of the erstwhile pinnacles of this sterling belief system, such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakkar, and learn about how they "practiced what they preached."

Last I heard, it's not just Christians that are against infidelity. Last I heard, it's not just Christians that are against human trafficking for prostitution, the exploitation of women and children, the abuse and violence perpetrated against these women and children, or the degradation of women and children. Not just Christians that hold those values, as much as you would like to make this a Christian issue or make this about my personal religious beliefs.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Last I heard, it's not just Christians that are against infidelity.

 

But, no matter how much you go off on your brainwashed binges, this thread is NOT ABOUT INFIDELITY.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Last I heard, it's not just Christians that are against infidelity. Last I heard, it's not just Christians that are against human trafficking for prostitution, the exploitation of women and children, the abuse and violence perpetrated against these women and children, or the degradation of women and children. Not just Christians that hold those values, as much as you would like to make this a Christian issue or make this about my personal religious beliefs.

 

By the way, I was not referring to Christians in my post. I was alluding to your particular form of religion.

 

I am aware that you self - identify as "Christian," From my perspective, cultish gangs of people who seek to shame, control and sublimate other people through fostering hate and ignorance are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ at all.

[KathyM]

But, no matter how much you go off on your brainwashed binges, this thread is NOT ABOUT INFIDELITY.

Is it so unfathomable to you that I actually choose to believe the way I do, just like you do? That I've actually decided of my own volition that my Christian beliefs make more sense than any other theory or belief system? And since this thread is about prostitution, and infidelity is a major component involved in its practice, it most definately is relevant to the topic.

[KathyM]

By the way, I was not referring to Christians in my post. I was alluding to your particular form of religion.

 

I am aware that you self - identify as "Christian," From my perspective, cultish gangs of people who seek to shame, control and sublimate other people through fostering hate and ignorance are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ at all.

Jesus Christ himself told prostitutes to go and sin no more. God himself is very adamantly against infidelity is all its forms. In many places in the Bible, adultery and prostitution are condemned. Those ARE the teachings of Christianity. Those ARE harmful, destructive behaviors--prostitution and infidelity. Believe it or not, it is not cultish to be against certain "businesses" that are destructive. If I'm against drug dealers selling harmful drugs to society, would that make me cultish, controlling and hateful? I'd say your promotion of harmful industries, such as prostitution, is what is hateful and ignorant, since it supports an industry that is destructive to people.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Jesus Christ himself told prostitutes to go and sin no more. God himself is very adamantly against infidelity is all its forms. In many places in the Bible, adultery and prostitution are condemned. Those ARE the teachings of Christianity.

 

I know the Bible as well as you do, I believe. You frequently pick and choose what supports whatever prejudice you are touting from the Good Book and ignore that which does not. Convenient, and common. I certainly don't need you to tell me what God is for or against.

 

Why don't you answer these questions that have been posed to you many times, in all different ways:

 

1) If a kid who works at MacDonald's serves a diabetic a milkshake and that person goes into a diabetic coma and croaks, is the kid responsible?

 

Is MacDonald's responsible? After all, if there were no MacDonald's, this never would have happened (never mind that the diabetic renegade could have procured a milkshake any number of other places).

 

2) If a fat person goes into MacDonald's and buys awful food, is MacDonald's "enabling" the person to be fat?

 

Should they be stopped from doing so? After all, MacDonald's exists almost solely on peoples' desires to eat garbage that will destroy their bodies. They depend on this more for their existence than prostitutes depend upon married guys, regardless of what bs you spout about the "studies," etc.

 

I think that unhealthy eating and weight related illnesses have caused a lot more serious problems for people un the USA than prostitution has. Do you disagree?

 

3) If a store sells liquor and an alcoholic buys some, are they responsible for the alcoholic's drinking? Should stores be banned from selling alcohol? Liquor made illegal again? I think that alcohol has ruined a lot more families than prostitutes have.

 

4) If my husband has a porn problem and he watches it all the time on the Internet, is it the existence of the Internet that "enables" this problem? Should the Internet be banned?

 

5) Since you feel free to speak for God, do you think that God hates MacDonald's, liquor stores, and the Internet as much, more, or less than He hates prostitutes?

 

6) Is God just particularly concerned with whom is screwing whom, and how, like you are? I guess sex is more interesting than worrying about fat people or drunks, even for the Lord, right?

 

7) Last but not least, why do you think that outside influences like prostitution and gay marriage need to be smashed in order for YOUR marriage to be "protected"? For some reason, my own marriage is not threatened by those things at all. I'm confident that if my marriage were to fail, the chances of it having anything to do with such outside influences (that are none of my personal business) are very remote.

 

What makes the marriages of you and those likeminded to you more susceptible?

 

I am looking forward, sincerely, to your honest answers to these questions. It will help me to understand where you are coming from.

 

Even though this thread is not about infidelity, or what you define as Christianity.

[TheFinalWord]

Moderator note:

 

Below are various posts from a discussion which began regarding why people think lowly of prostitution and I'm moving the religion/spiritual discussion here because the nuances of the differences in people's religious/spiritual belief systems are not relevant to the general topic and this is the proper venue for their discussion.

 

Posts are ordered by their time stamps in the original thread and without prejudice. As always, community guidelines are to be adhered to. Thanks.

 

 

We are arguing here with people who, because of the organized religion they have chosen to participate in, believe that SEX (fornication) is basically "bad."

 

SEX is supposed, according to this belief system, to belong EXCLUSIVELY in the marital bed - between a "church married" man and woman.

 

That's IT.

 

All society, laws, sexualities, desires, and freedoms are to be sublimated or convoluted in order to support this belief.

 

They do not believe that people are free to do with their own bodies (or hearts) what they please.

 

There is no point in arguing with people who don't have any interest in facts.

 

It's fun to Google some of the erstwhile pinnacles of this sterling belief system, such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakkar, and learn about how they "practiced what they preached."

 

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is? Is this a question or just a statement? Not being sarcastic, I just don't understand.

 

I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies.

 

This post kind of reminds me of another group that tried to trap someone in his words...

 

Book of John - The Woman Caught in Adultery (8:1-11) ESV - YouTube

 

Jesus confronts a "fornicator" and doesn't condemn her Instead he shows her love...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7INnvnHrlg&feature=related

Edited July 9, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies.

 

This post kind of reminds me of another group that tried to trap someone in his words...

 

Book of John - The Woman Caught in Adultery (8:1-11) ESV - YouTube

 

Jesus confronts a "fornicator" and doesn't condemn her Instead he shows her love...

 

Jesus meets woman at a well - YouTube

 

That's exactly what I believe is the "Christian" way to approach this issue.

[KathyM]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is? Is this a question or just a statement? Not being sarcastic, I just don't understand.

 

I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies.

 

This post kind of reminds me of another group that tried to trap someone in his words...

 

Book of John - The Woman Caught in Adultery (8:1-11) ESV - YouTube

 

Jesus confronts a "fornicator" and doesn't condemn her Instead he shows her love...

 

Jesus meets woman at a well - YouTube

Actually, people can't do whatever they want with their body. There are many laws that dictate what we can't do with our body. We can't expose our naked body in public (in most circumstances), we can't become intoxicated and then drive a car, we can't take illegal drugs, we can't smoke in many public places, and in the U.S. (except for a few remote areas of Nevada), we can't sell our body for sex. God's laws also prohibit many things that can be done to a person's body--intoxication, fornication, adultery, prostitution, etc. While Jesus did show compassion for sinners, He also hates sin and instructs prostitutes to go and sin no more. Christians are instructed in the Bible to rebuke sin and hold each other accountable for it, and to support others in turning away from their sin. That is what Christians are called to do.

[denise_xo]

I'm going to answer this thread 'seriously', rather than making it about an issue of how Christianity may or may not view sex outside of marriage, because I think behind that topic there is a more potentially interesting debate. And for the record, the following is written in the spirit of 'spiritual perspectives on...' and not whether something should be legal or not - in other words, I'm talking about thoughts that guide my life personally, not what I think should be legal or not or which sectors other people should work in.

 

I don't have a religious label, but from a 'spiritual perspective' my take is the following:

 

On alcohol and MacDonalds and so on: From a spiritual perspective, I think the cliche of 'your body is your temple' is very helpful. For that reason, I don't drink and I try to eat healthily (I don't always succeed with the latter, especially in periods when I'm very busy, but hey...). I think alcohol is a poison for the body just as nicotine is, with reference to the general drinking patterns where I live. I'm not here talking about that one glass that might be good for your heart in the long run or whatever - I'm talking about regular intoxication, which is very common in my country. I think anything that a) makes me feel intoxicated or b) alters my sense of perception and judgement in a significant way is a negative from a spiritual perspective.

 

On the topic of prostitution: I like Patsy Rodenburgs concept of the 'second circle', which kind of denotes a state of being where your mind, body and spirit are connected (my paraphrasing, not her exact words). In other words, you are embodied, in that you are connected to your body, and you are also at a high level of awareness as well as open to the world. She has worked with everything from Hollywood actors (she's had Nicole Kidman as one of her clients) to prostitutes. With regard to actors in particular, she argues that the best actors are those who operate from a place of the 'second circle' - where you are fully present both in body and in mind. With regard to prostitutes, she says that a typical feature of their work is that they have to step out of the 'second circle' and disconnect from their body in order to bear carrying out their work. That's not unique to prostitutes, but given the history of this thread topic I'm using it as an example.

 

So, from my personal 'spiritual' perspective, a guiding principle for me is to operate, as far as possible, from the space of that 'second circle'. That would be one of my main problem with prostitution, as well as a range of other jobs. Having a job that forces me to step out of that space on a regular basis is, IMO, dehumanising. Of course, there is a sliding scale to this - we all take on different kind of professional 'roles' - but some roles are definitely more conducive to maintaining that kind of balance than others.

 

For mer personally, the question of infidelity would be a factor if I were to work as a prostitute. Yes, the man is the responsible actor, but I would, as a matter of regular conduct, be involved in deceit. I don't want to work like that, just like I wouldn't want to work as an investment banker who was very 'light on the truth' with regard to customers' investments (several cases of systematic misinformation of small level investment customers where I live). I think that makes the job a bit different from working at McDonald's, for me personally.

[123321]

I have no issue with anyone who believes fornication or adultery are wrong. I think anyone who would use that belief to form legislation is anti-American but I would at least respect them for the logical consistency in their views if they, for instance, argued in favor of outlawing adultery.

 

I'm aware of no religion that proscribes prostitution while encouraging fornication, indeed the Biblical sources are clearly judging prostitutes based on what they do, not on the basis that there was money exchanged.

 

So I do find people who would have us believe that "because adultery is wrong, prostitution should be banned." This makes no logical or moral sense. It's a thinly veiled exercise in marginalizing a portion of society that is vulnerable instead of going after the actual, hard to tackle, core issue.

 

If we decide we are going to legally tolerate fornication and adultery, we have no logical basis to then say "because adultery is wrong, prostitution should be banned."

[TheFinalWord]

Actually, people can't do whatever they want with their body. There are many laws that dictate what we can't do with our body. We can't expose our naked body in public (in most circumstances), we can't become intoxicated and then drive a car, we can't take illegal drugs, we can't smoke in many public places, and in the U.S. (except for a few remote areas of Nevada), we can't sell our body for sex. God's laws also prohibit many things that can be done to a person's body--intoxication, fornication, adultery, prostitution, etc. While Jesus did show compassion for sinners, He also hates sin and instructs prostitutes to go and sin no more. Christians are instructed in the Bible to rebuke sin and hold each other accountable for it, and to support others in turning away from their sin. That is what Christians are called to do.

 

Hi Kathy, I don't promote lawlessness at all.

I definitely think people should obey the laws of the land. I also don't support fornication. But there is a reason for that. I'm saved. Preaching that doctrine to the unsaved is pretty fruitless b/c they don't understand the point. They already know we consider it a sin, but they don't know why. We strive to obey God, because we have experienced His love. If people haven't experienced his love, they have no desire to obey Him and they also don't have the power to b/c they don't have the Spirit.

 

When it comes to evangelism, I use a different approach. When I did missions work we never just went in and started blasting everyone about all the things they were doing wrong. To realize the truth of God's love they have to see the love of God. This world is a tough place. People get beat down all the time. They don't need it from the body of Christ IMHO. They need to know the love and mercy of God. God is love and the church should be a sanctuary. Yes, holiness should be preached, but unfortunately that's all they hear from us. People desire to be holy when they know the love of God. It's a natural reaction to the revelation of God.

 

It doesn't come from beating them down, that produces spite. And if you saw the links, I gave videos that give word for word accounts of the Gospels of Luke and John. I let Jesus do the preaching. I try to keep myself out of it, unless I feel compelled by God. I often will let the Word speak for itself. The spirit will reveal it to those that are open. But if I need to expand, God will tell me when there is a teachable moment. Unless you have the gift of evangelism, then go ahead. My gift is teaching. I strive to reach people where they are. Teaching the unsaved about holiness and Christian lifestyle is for later, right now those concepts are completely foreign to them.

 

Yes, as Christians, we are accountable in much different ways, but those are spiritual teachings. The carnal man can't grasp those. I never preached compromise. But they do have free will and they have a carnal mind.

 

"It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God"

 

They don't know God, so the desire to submit their body as a temple is completely foreign. They don't understand that concept. We only do because we first experienced the love of God. Hope that makes sense.

 

I do believe that people are free to do what they want with their bodies, including submitting to God, which is the ultimate freedom. Living in sin is bondage, but people are free to stay enslaved if they want. The problem is people don't know they're in captivity. If you want a spiritual teaching, I would say Read 2 Corinthians 4. The philosophy of that chapter is so deep. But it will explain what I mean about captivity. It's when they experience God's love that they realize there is something more to life. And that's what I meant above. Perhaps it was unclear. I don't mean people can just go running naked through the streets LOL But I can see why maybe it came across that way.

 

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "

 

Please watch Pastor Bob, I think you'll see what I'm saying, or at least understand where I'm coming from It's been a long few days for me. I hope what I'm saying makes sense. Maybe I need to take more time to think through my posts instead of typing so fast LOL Take care.

 

 

 

And Jesus explaining love with a prostitute as an example:

 

Edited July 10, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is? Is this a question or just a statement? Not being sarcastic, I just don't understand.

 

I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies.

 

This post kind of reminds me of another group that tried to trap someone in his words...

 

Book of John - The Woman Caught in Adultery (8:1-11) ESV - YouTube

 

Jesus confronts a "fornicator" and doesn't condemn her Instead he shows her love...

 

Jesus meets woman at a well - YouTube

 

Hello TheFinalWord,

 

I am curious. If you have a daughter, do you believe she has the right to sell her body if she wants to? It is important for fathers to teach their daughters that they are priceless... that they are worth so much more than mere merchandise to buy/sell. It is important for a father to be a great role model to her in how true gentlemen do not go visit prostitutes, but rather is faithful to his own wife, keeping marriage pure and sacred by God's grace.

 

KathyM's point of view is that in Christian beliefs, prostitution is wrong and considered completely unacceptable. Yes it is true that Jesus offers forgiveness to prostitutes, which is awesome!!! It is so amazing and cool as well that Rahab, a great great great... grandmother of King David and great great great great great ... grandmother of Jesus, was a prostitute. God definitely forgives! She did not stay a prostitute however. She left that lifestyle and got married.

 

One of my favorite passages in Paul's letters is the following: (I boldened some.)

 

1 Cor 6 NIV - Lawsuits Among Believers - If any of - Bible Gateway

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[Gen. 2:24] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[Or in the Spirit]

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "

 

Prostitutes are people who very much need God's love, same as all of us. We are not better than they are. They are not inferior to us.

 

Jesus said the following, which is cool and show how many prostitutes in his time were more humble and accepting of him than religious leaders!

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21&version=NIV

In Matthew 21:31

 

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."

 

Jesus was very clear that sexual immorality defiles a person (Matthew 15:18-20). Jesus read and knew the Tanakh, including the Law of Moses. In Moses' time, it was understood that prostitution was wicked, because of the following:

 

Leviticus 19 NIV - Various Laws - The LORD said to Moses, - Bible Gateway

Leviticus 19:29

“‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

 

I think this is the concern of KathyM, because even though it is obvious that not everyone is Christian in her country, I think it does most definitely concern her (and me too) about the idea of prostitution, because of the harm it brings in many different ways.

 

However, it is true that Jesus calls us to love. Sadly, many girls are forced into prostitution, or do it as simply a means to get rid of debt and get whatever money buys them. Either way, it is true that Christians need to love them, not condemn them. As a Christian American, it is important to me to strive to keep prostitution illegal, not out of hatred, but out of love for girls who are worth so much more than selling their bodies for money. People are priceless. They/their bodies should not be bought or sold - period. Just as I am against slavery, so I am also against the buying/selling a person's body for sex. Sad to say, sexual slavery is one of the most horrible issues the world is facing today in 2012, and that's the case in both countries where prostitution is illegal and legal, with underage girls being the most victimized.

Edited July 10, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm going to answer this thread 'seriously', rather than making it about an issue of how Christianity may or may not view sex outside of marriage, because I think behind that topic there is a more potentially interesting debate.

 

 

Thanks for taking the time, Denise. I pretty much follow the same creed that you do. I do believe that my body is a temple, and I also believe that other peoples' bodies are temples and it distresses me when I see them being treated without respect, by their "inhabiters."

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

When it comes to evangelism, I use a different approach. When I did missions work we never just went in and started blasting everyone about all the things they were doing wrong. To realize the truth of God's love they have to see the love of God. This world is a tough place. People get beat down all the time. They don't need it from the body of Christ IMHO. They need to know the love and mercy of God. God is love and the church should be a sanctuary. Yes, holiness should be preached, but unfortunately that's all they hear from us. People desire to be holy when they know the love of God. It's a natural reaction to the revelation of God.

 

 

Thank you for that. I LOVE when I see and hear about people who approach their own faith from that place, rather than from the place of browbeating, guilt, shame, and bombastic self-righteousness (which is very different from righteousness).

 

FYI, I did not really start this thread and my posts are kind of abrupt when taken out of context. I got started when KathyM, who is a very vocal self professed Christian and spokesperson for God and Jesus, said that "prostitutes are bad people." Then went on to use the Bible and Christianity to support this, as well as using the fact that adultery is biblically wrong and prostitution is directly enabling adultery (according to her, and which I think is a completely inappropriate leap from logic for the conversation on the other thread.)

 

That set me off. My posts that are here came from that other thread.

 

I am not "pro" prostitution, at all. I believe that every single one of the women who use selling their body to earn money could find a more fulfilling and enriching way … but I might be wrong. And I probably AM.

 

And, I believe that MOST of the men who use the services of prostitutes could gain a deeper and more connected experience sexually if they would not compartmentalize sex that way, and instead have it in the context of actually merging with another HUMAN BEING. But, I am pretty sure there are exceptions. I watched a program about sexuality recently where a severely disabled man was going to a prostitute (legally, and I think this was in Great Britain but I am not sure) to have sex. He was wheelchair bound and I think he would be a completely passive recipient. I felt glad that such a thing was available for him.

[KathyM]

I know the Bible as well as you do, I believe. You frequently pick and choose what supports whatever prejudice you are touting from the Good Book and ignore that which does not. Convenient, and common. I certainly don't need you to tell me what God is for or against.

 

Why don't you answer these questions that have been posed to you many times, in all different ways:

 

1) If a kid who works at MacDonald's serves a diabetic a milkshake and that person goes into a diabetic coma and croaks, is the kid responsible?

 

Is MacDonald's responsible? After all, if there were no MacDonald's, this never would have happened (never mind that the diabetic renegade could have procured a milkshake any number of other places).

 

2) If a fat person goes into MacDonald's and buys awful food, is MacDonald's "enabling" the person to be fat?

 

Should they be stopped from doing so? After all, MacDonald's exists almost solely on peoples' desires to eat garbage that will destroy their bodies. They depend on this more for their existence than prostitutes depend upon married guys, regardless of what bs you spout about the "studies," etc.

 

I think that unhealthy eating and weight related illnesses have caused a lot more serious problems for people un the USA than prostitution has. Do you disagree?

 

3) If a store sells liquor and an alcoholic buys some, are they responsible for the alcoholic's drinking? Should stores be banned from selling alcohol? Liquor made illegal again? I think that alcohol has ruined a lot more families than prostitutes have.

 

4) If my husband has a porn problem and he watches it all the time on the Internet, is it the existence of the Internet that "enables" this problem? Should the Internet be banned?

 

5) Since you feel free to speak for God, do you think that God hates MacDonald's, liquor stores, and the Internet as much, more, or less than He hates prostitutes?

 

6) Is God just particularly concerned with whom is screwing whom, and how, like you are? I guess sex is more interesting than worrying about fat people or drunks, even for the Lord, right?

 

7) Last but not least, why do you think that outside influences like prostitution and gay marriage need to be smashed in order for YOUR marriage to be "protected"? For some reason, my own marriage is not threatened by those things at all. I'm confident that if my marriage were to fail, the chances of it having anything to do with such outside influences (that are none of my personal business) are very remote.

 

What makes the marriages of you and those likeminded to you more susceptible?

 

I am looking forward, sincerely, to your honest answers to these questions. It will help me to understand where you are coming from.

 

Even though this thread is not about infidelity, or what you define as Christianity.

Since you continually insist on making any debates with you into a personal attack against me, my husband, my marriage, and my personal religious faith, I don't intend to engage in any further debates with you, since you don't actually care to stick to debating the topic of prostitution, but always seem to turn it around into an attack of myself, my husband and my marriage, of which you know nothing about.

[KathyM]

I have no issue with anyone who believes fornication or adultery are wrong. I think anyone who would use that belief to form legislation is anti-American but I would at least respect them for the logical consistency in their views if they, for instance, argued in favor of outlawing adultery.

 

I'm aware of no religion that proscribes prostitution while encouraging fornication, indeed the Biblical sources are clearly judging prostitutes based on what they do, not on the basis that there was money exchanged.

 

So I do find people who would have us believe that "because adultery is wrong, prostitution should be banned." This makes no logical or moral sense. It's a thinly veiled exercise in marginalizing a portion of society that is vulnerable instead of going after the actual, hard to tackle, core issue.

 

If we decide we are going to legally tolerate fornication and adultery, we have no logical basis to then say "because adultery is wrong, prostitution should be banned."

Prostitution is made illegal mainly because of the harm it does to women and children. Prostitution exploits and degrades women and children, and it encourages human trafficking, so society (at least in the U.S. and some other countries) have deemed it to be harmful to women, children and society. That is why it is made illegal. Because it mainly consists of enabling married men to cheat on their wives is not why it is made illegal. It is made illegal in order to protect women and children from men who would exploit them.

[123321]

Prostitution is made illegal mainly because of the harm it does to women and children. Prostitution exploits and degrades women and children, and it encourages human trafficking, so society (at least in the U.S. and some other countries) have deemed it to be harmful to women, children and society. That is why it is made illegal. Because it mainly consists of enabling married men to cheat on their wives is not why it is made illegal. It is made illegal in order to protect women and children from men who would exploit them.

 

So other than the incredible lack of concern for the welfare and protection of men and boys, what I'm reading from you is that there is no religious reason to make prostitution illegal.

 

The rest I will happily deal with in the other thread where it is on topic.

[KathyM]

Hi Kathy, I don't promote lawlessness at all.

I definitely think people should obey the laws of the land. I also don't support fornication. But there is a reason for that. I'm saved. Preaching that doctrine to the unsaved is pretty fruitless b/c they don't understand the point. They already know we consider it a sin, but they don't know why. We strive to obey God, because we have experienced His love. If people haven't experienced his love, they have no desire to obey Him and they also don't have the power to b/c they don't have the Spirit.

 

When it comes to evangelism, I use a different approach. When I did missions work we never just went in and started blasting everyone about all the things they were doing wrong. To realize the truth of God's love they have to see the love of God. This world is a tough place. People get beat down all the time. They don't need it from the body of Christ IMHO. They need to know the love and mercy of God. God is love and the church should be a sanctuary. Yes, holiness should be preached, but unfortunately that's all they hear from us. People desire to be holy when they know the love of God. It's a natural reaction to the revelation of God.

 

It doesn't come from beating them down, that produces spite. And if you saw the links, I gave videos that give word for word accounts of the Gospels of Luke and John. I let Jesus do the preaching. I try to keep myself out of it, unless I feel compelled by God. I often will let the Word speak for itself. The spirit will reveal it to those that are open. But if I need to expand, God will tell me when there is a teachable moment. Unless you have the gift of evangelism, then go ahead. My gift is teaching. I strive to reach people where they are. Teaching the unsaved about holiness and Christian lifestyle is for later, right now those concepts are completely foreign to them.

 

Yes, as Christians, we are accountable in much different ways, but those are spiritual teachings. The carnal man can't grasp those. I never preached compromise. But they do have free will and they have a carnal mind.

 

"It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God"

 

They don't know God, so the desire to submit their body as a temple is completely foreign. They don't understand that concept. We only do because we first experienced the love of God. Hope that makes sense.

 

I do believe that people are free to do what they want with their bodies, including submitting to God, which is the ultimate freedom. Living in sin is bondage, but people are free to stay enslaved if they want. The problem is people don't know they're in captivity. If you want a spiritual teaching, I would say Read 2 Corinthians 4. The philosophy of that chapter is so deep. But it will explain what I mean about captivity. It's when they experience God's love that they realize there is something more to life. And that's what I meant above. Perhaps it was unclear. I don't mean people can just go running naked through the streets LOL But I can see why maybe it came across that way.

 

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "

 

Please watch Pastor Bob, I think you'll see what I'm saying, or at least understand where I'm coming from It's been a long few days for me. I hope what I'm saying makes sense. Maybe I need to take more time to think through my posts instead of typing so fast LOL Take care.

 

 

 

And Jesus explaining love with a prostitute as an example:

 

There are also people of many other faiths, and even people with no faith, who subscribe to moral values, and do not want to see women and children exploited, abused, degraded, or trafficked and forced into sexual slavery. This is a human issue that affects society, and I do believe that, as Christians, we are supposed to be the protectors of the weak, and upholders of and advocates for public policy that would protect those who are vulnerable, and to protect society from an industry that is harmful to it.

[KathyM]

Hello TheFinalWord,

 

I am curious. If you have a daughter, do you believe she has the right to sell her body if she wants to? It is important for fathers to teach their daughters that they are priceless... that they are worth so much more than mere merchandise to buy/sell. It is important for a father to be a great role model to her in how true gentlemen do not go visit prostitutes, but rather is faithful to his own wife, keeping marriage pure and sacred by God's grace.

 

KathyM's point of view is that in Christian beliefs, prostitution is wrong and considered completely unacceptable. Yes it is true that Jesus offers forgiveness to prostitutes, which is awesome!!! It is so amazing and cool as well that Rahab, a great great great... grandmother of King David and great great great great great ... grandmother of Jesus, was a prostitute. God definitely forgives! She did not stay a prostitute however. She left that lifestyle and got married.

 

One of my favorite passages in Paul's letters is the following: (I boldened some.)

 

1 Cor 6 NIV - Lawsuits Among Believers - If any of - Bible Gateway

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[Gen. 2:24] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[Or in the Spirit]

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "

 

Prostitutes are people who very much need God's love, same as all of us. We are not better than they are. They are not inferior to us.

 

Jesus said the following, which is cool and show how many prostitutes in his time were more humble and accepting of him than religious leaders!

 

Matthew 21 NIV - Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King - As - Bible Gateway

In Matthew 21:31

 

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."

 

Jesus was very clear that sexual immorality defiles a person (Matthew 15:18-20). Jesus read and knew the Tanakh, including the Law of Moses. In Moses' time, it was understood that prostitution was wicked, because of the following:

 

Leviticus 19 NIV - Various Laws - The LORD said to Moses, - Bible Gateway

Leviticus 19:29

“‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

 

I think this is the concern of KathyM, because even though it is obvious that not everyone is Christian in her country, I think it does most definitely concern her (and me too) about the idea of prostitution, because of the harm it brings in many different ways.

 

However, it is true that Jesus calls us to love. Sadly, many girls are forced into prostitution, or do it as simply a means to get rid of debt and get whatever money buys them. Either way, it is true that Christians need to love them, not condemn them. As a Christian American, it is important to me to strive to keep prostitution illegal, not out of hatred, but out of love for girls who are worth so much more than selling their bodies for money. People are priceless. They/their bodies should not be bought or sold - period. Just as I am against slavery, so I am also against the buying/selling a person's body for sex. Sad to say, sexual slavery is one of the most horrible issues the world is facing today in 2012, and that's the case in both countries where prostitution is illegal and legal, with underage girls being the most victimized.

That was very well said. I totally agree with you.

[KathyM]

So other than the incredible lack of concern for the welfare and protection of men and boys, what I'm reading from you is that there is no religious reason to make prostitution illegal.

 

The rest I will happily deal with in the other thread where it is on topic.

There IS religious reason to make prostitution illegal, but there are also humanistic reasons why it should be illegal--it exploits and degrades women. It encourages human trafficking and sexual slavery.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Since you continually insist on making any debates with you into a personal attack against me, my husband, my marriage, and my personal religious faith, I don't intend to engage in any further debates with you,

 

 

Hey! That's what you always say when I ask you to delve deeper into the proclamations you frequently make!

 

Why am I not surprised?

 

Unless you demonstrate otherwise by responding thoughtfully to my questions, I will just assume that the real reason you don't is that you actually can't, without debunking your own claims.

 

Why must you take a challenge as a "personal attack"? That's not what it is. When you make vast judgements and claim to speak for all Christians, God, Jesus and the institution of marriage, I would think you'd be prepared for challenges.

 

since you don't actually care to stick to debating the topic of prostitution, but always seem to turn it around

 

Ha! I hope that even you can appreciate the hilarity and irony of this … considering the source.

 

Debating prostitution and debating adultery are 2 different debates - no matter how many times you insist that they're not. Truly!

 

Just like a discussion about the business practices of MacDonald's and one about obesity are two separate discussions.

 

In both cases, there certainly can be points of crossover where the discussions could merge.

 

Your evident inability to understand this makes it hard to take you seriously.

[BetheButterfly]

Hey! That's what you always say when I ask you to delve deeper into the proclamations you frequently make!

 

Why am I not surprised?

 

Unless you demonstrate otherwise by responding thoughtfully to my questions, I will just assume that the real reason you don't is that you actually can't, without debunking your own claims.

 

Why must you take a challenge as a "personal attack"? That's not what it is. When you make vast judgements and claim to speak for all Christians, God, Jesus and the institution of marriage, I would think you'd be prepared for challenges.

 

 

 

Ha! I hope that even you can appreciate the hilarity and irony of this … considering the source.

 

Debating prostitution and debating adultery are 2 different debates - no matter how many times you insist that they're not. Truly!

 

Just like a discussion about the business practices of MacDonald's and one about obesity are two separate discussions.

 

In both cases, there certainly can be points of crossover where the discussions could merge.

 

Your evident inability to understand this makes it hard to take you seriously.

 

You know, obviously you and KathyM have different ideas about prostitution and beliefs. People are diverse, and this is obviously one of those diverse areas. It does seem to me like you are personally attacking her.

 

Since she has obviously written some things you definitely disagree with, why not agree to disagree? Why attack her and demand she explain every little thing she writes? The Final Word and other Christians, including me, have also given our viewpoints. It is obvious you agree with the Final Word, which is fine, and disagree with KathyM, which is fine. Nobody agrees with everybody, and even in between brothers and sisters in Christ, there is disagreement in different issues. Even in my family, my 3 sisters and I disagree on things, yet we still love each other and agree to disagree on stuff.

 

So, how about let's agree to disagree? Personal attacks don't help anything. It only causes strife.

 

Is there anything, even one sentence that KathyM has written, that you agree with? Thanks.