Religious/spiritual perspectives regarding prostitution

[zengirl]

I don't see why challenging a POV should be seen as a 'personal attack.' It is my observation that some religious people (not all, certainly) will often do this when anything they view as a religious reasoning is challenged. I would love it if religion were truly personal, but as long as it is used as an argument for or against anything that impacts others, it is no longer personal. Thus in this context, religious matters and opinions are not personal, they are about the topic, and all logical fallacies and such are not personal either, they are about the topic.

 

Calling something a "personal attack" seems to me an easy way to get out of a debate that one cannot argue with logic and a false choice. Religious faith ceases to be personal when you choose to discuss it or put it forward as an argument, IMO. It's a cheap shot to take a religious view on why something is 'wrong' and then say your view cannot be debated because it's your personal religion.

[BetheButterfly]

I don't see why challenging a POV should be seen as a 'personal attack.' It is my observation that some religious people (not all, certainly) will often do this when anything they view as a religious reasoning is challenged. I would love it if religion were truly personal, but as long as it is used as an argument for or against anything that impacts others, it is no longer personal. Thus in this context, religious matters and opinions are not personal, they are about the topic, and all logical fallacies and such are not personal either, they are about the topic.

 

Calling something a "personal attack" seems to me an easy way to get out of a debate that one cannot argue with logic and a false choice. Religious faith ceases to be personal when you choose to discuss it or put it forward as an argument, IMO. It's a cheap shot to take a religious view on why something is 'wrong' and then say your view cannot be debated because it's your personal religion.

 

Hello Zengirl,

 

If someone is feeling personally attacked, it does not invalidate their feelings if other people do not consider it to be an attack.

 

If a person feels bullied, it does not invalidate their feelings if other people do not consider that person to be bullied.

 

if a person feels violated in some way, it does not invalidate their feelings if other people do not consider that person to be violated.

 

Regardless, the issue here needs to be kept at a courteous level. Since KathyM felt personally attacked, is there any way that people who disagree with her can address her points without using "You ..." when discussing what she believes and why?

 

Is there any way they can find one sentence at the least which they can agree with, as a bridge in the discussion?

 

Is there any way acknowledgement of KathyM being a human being who has feelings can be made, so she and others do not feel she is being personally attacked? Thanks.

Edited July 10, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[zengirl]

I'm not suggesting anyone's feelings are invalidated. I'm simply not suggesting that just because you feel something, it means that it's real and should be practiced by all and that you should garner special treatment, beyond the basic respect demanded of everyone and equal treatment to others, and adherence to the TOS, of course.

 

At any rate, you did not address my basic point -- the cheap shot of using your religion to make a point and then deflecting any criticism of the logic of your point and your religion by calling it "personal" and declaring it out of bounds. That's simply not a fair argument, at that point, in my view.

 

I do think it's unrealistic to expect an argument and debate of your ideas, ideas you've willingly put forth, not to include the word "you." Though I do think some personal areas are off limits, the ones you've put forth in that argument are not, including your religion and marriage, if you've used them in the discussion, as you've chosen to inject those ideas. And "you" certainly are not. Otherwise, there can be no real debate in the world -- we would only be saying what we think in a vacuum, without discussing the merits of the ideas put forth. That's Cable News, not a debate.

[BetheButterfly]

I'm not suggesting anyone's feelings are invalidated. I'm simply not suggesting that just because you feel something, it means that it's real and should be practiced by all and that you should garner special treatment, beyond the basic respect demanded of everyone and equal treatment to others, and adherence to the TOS, of course.

 

Feelings are real to those who feel them.

 

At any rate, you did not address my basic point -- the cheap shot of using your religion to make a point and then deflecting any criticism of the logic of your point and your religion by calling it "personal" and declaring it out of bounds. That's simply not a fair argument, at that point, in my view.

 

Could you please give an example where I have done this? Thanks.

 

As for addressing your basic point, it is important to be courteous for debates to be conducted. Otherwise, they just turn into heated arguments gone personal that really benefits noone.

 

I do think it's unrealistic to expect an argument and debate of your ideas, ideas you've willingly put forth, not to include the word "you." Though I do think some personal areas are off limits, the ones you've put forth in that argument are not, including your religion and marriage, if you've used them in the discussion, as you've chosen to inject those ideas. And "you" certainly are not. Otherwise, there can be no real debate in the world -- we would only be saying what we think in a vacuum, without discussing the merits of the ideas put forth. That's Cable News, not a debate.

 

Which ones do think think are off limits and why? As for debate, professional debate, at least in the White House, includes guidelines, including:

 

 

 

• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]Avoid characterizing another Member's personal intent or motives and discussing personalities.[/sIZE][/FONT]
  

 

 

• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]Refrain from speaking disrespectfully of the Speaker, other Members, the President or Vice President.[/sIZE][/FONT]
  

RULES OF DECORUM & DEBATE IN THE HOUSE

 

 

Now, it would be good to define such issues in heated discussions here on this forum where people feel passionately about the topic in question.

 

 

 

Since KathyM has felt personally attacked, wouldn't it be good to clarify with her how she felt attacked?

 

When in your life you have felt personally attacked, wouldn't you have liked for people to have not done so, but rather agree to disagree with you?

Again, if courtesy is not a part of debate, debate can go downhill into a heated brawl with hurt feelings and no good whatsoever fast.

[zengirl]

Feelings are real to those who feel them.

 

Again, I never suggested that the feelings weren't real, just that feelings don't always reflect the reality of a situation objectively. I'm not really one for injecting emotion into logic or debating emotionally, personally.

 

Could you please give an example where I have done this? Thanks.

 

As for addressing your basic point, it is important to be courteous for debates to be conducted. Otherwise, they just turn into heated arguments gone personal that really benefits noone.

 

Where you've done what? At any rate, if someone is going to feel personally offended when their ideas are challenged, I don't see an alternative, as I said. Again, you've not addressed my point on that. IMO it's a very real problem that personally offends me, that stems from this whole, "Let's not debate anyone's religious convictions" idea.

 

Which ones do think think are off limits and why?

 

Any personal information that the person did not inject into the debate and/or is not relevant to the discussion (i.e. copying from an unrelated thread and saying, "Well, you're a bad mother!" when it had nothing to do with things). Any name-calling. Anything said solely (emphasis on SOLELY) for the purpose of berating a poster and not in any way making an argument against something the poster actually said. Those things are off-limits, in my book. Not that I make the rules - I'd just as soon go by the TOS, which define things for us. That's all I'll say on the matter; I'm no armchair moderator.

 

At any rate:

 

Clearly, prostitution is impacted by religious ideas, particularly in the United States, where most of the sex-shaming and puritanical cultural influences do come from Christianity, previous incarnations and current, even in non-Christian society. The Puritan origins of parts of our nation still echo, and I think it's no surprise that the far West Coast seems to be a bit more open-minded and liberal in THAT way (drugs, sex, etc) than the East coast (where liberalism is more about money and social institutions and the like). Ancestors still echo.

 

I would say a big part of my problem with prostitution being illegal is that it seems to mostly be done, in the United States, in the name of religion. Again, I'd *love* it if religion was a personal thing, but as long as it's used as a weapon and tool for oppressing or changing the lives of others, it's not personal at all.

[GorillaTheater]

Jesus seemed to indicate that prostitution was a sin, but he was alot more clear on where He stood vis-a-vis hatred, hypocrisy, greed, and selfishness in general. We have alot to clean up in this world before we get all tied up about how consenting adults go about getting laid.

[BetheButterfly]

Again, I never suggested that the feelings weren't real, just that feelings don't always reflect the reality of a situation objectively. I'm not really one for injecting emotion into logic or debating emotionally, personally.

 

Some people can't help being emotional while debating. However, it is true that it is best to not let one's own emotions interfere. Perhaps that is why KathyM decided to no longer answer the OP. It is possible. Emotions are sometimes difficult to control.

 

 

Where you've done what? At any rate, if someone is going to feel personally offended when their ideas are challenged, I don't see an alternative, as I said. Again, you've not addressed my point on that. IMO it's a very real problem that personally offends me, that stems from this whole, "Let's not debate anyone's religious convictions" idea.

You wrote, "At any rate, you did not address my basic point -- the cheap shot of using your religion to make a point and then deflecting any criticism of the logic of your point and your religion by calling it "personal" and declaring it out of bounds. That's simply not a fair argument, at that point, in my view. "

 

I was curious where I did the above, which is why I asked you where have I done that.

 

 

 

Any personal information that the person did not inject into the debate and/or is not relevant to the discussion (i.e. copying from an unrelated thread and saying, "Well, you're a bad mother!" when it had nothing to do with things). Any name-calling. Anything said solely (emphasis on SOLELY) for the purpose of berating a poster and not in any way making an argument against something the poster actually said. Those things are off-limits, in my book. Not that I make the rules - I'd just as soon go by the TOS, which define things for us. That's all I'll say on the matter; I'm no armchair moderator.

When I see a person feels personally attacked, whether on a forum or in real life, I take a stand. That's how I am personally, and I feel for KathyM, because here she has been for a long time, as far as I know, explaining what she believes and why, and is constantly having to answer questions/statements characterizing her in a negative way. Now, I disagree with her in some areas. For example, I don't believe prostitutes are bad people. However, I don't have to attack her view or her personally in order to express my view that prostitutes are people God loves same as everyone else.

 

At any rate:

 

Clearly, prostitution is impacted by religious ideas, particularly in the United States, where most of the sex-shaming and puritanical cultural influences do come from Christianity, previous incarnations and current, even in non-Christian society. The Puritan origins of parts of our nation still echo, and I think it's no surprise that the far West Coast seems to be a bit more open-minded and liberal in THAT way (drugs, sex, etc) than the East coast (where liberalism is more about money and social institutions and the like). Ancestors still echo.

Where does Christianity come from? It is true that the USA has a lot of history with Christianity, since many of the European immigrants to the "New World" came here to escape religious persecution. Sadly, it is horrible that they in turn killed and stole from Native Americans, as well as many enslaving African people. However, that's a different topic and thank God, many Christians, especially some Quakers and people like Elijah Lovejoy, fought against slavery because of their beliefs in all people being equal under God. I personally subscribe to the belief that slavery is unacceptable, due to my belief in God and that all people are equal in His eyes.

 

I would say a big part of my problem with prostitution being illegal is that it seems to mostly be done, in the United States, in the name of religion. Again, I'd *love* it if religion was a personal thing, but as long as it's used as a weapon and tool for oppressing or changing the lives of others, it's not personal at all.

See, all the above is great, because you are not attacking any person. I have no problem with how you are debating with me right now.

 

I do not have a problem with prostitution being illegal and I do not have a problem with slavery being illegal. I wish both had always been illegal here in the USA. Regardless, I am glad that Christians who understand about obeying Jesus' teachings, have helped rescue slaves, both sexual slaves and other slaves, in the USA's history. I personally know women today who are actively helping rescue girls and women who are being trafficked. Some are from countries where prostitution is legal, like Colombia. Sad to say, many poor girls are trapped into prostitution through drugs and sent to other places in the world, including the USA where prostitution is illegal. I am glad there are women who are helping rescue them, because many of them have dreams that do not include selling their bodies to people who just want to use them and who do not truly love them.

Edited July 10, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[Mme. Chaucer]

Feelings are real to those who feel them.

 

My feelings are just as real as those of person who chooses to come on LoveShack and complain about being attacked, even though I don't ever do that. And I am attacked plenty (not by KathyM).

 

I am not attacking. That poster has pushed some pretty sensitive buttons with me ("prostitutes are bad people" and then using Jesus and the Bible to back this up) and in other discussions as well, which would be off topic to mention here. I get fired up. That is MY feeling.

 

Every conversation and question about the prostitution issue was derailed into an adultery discussion, including KathyM's defending her conscious choice to misuse terms / words ("enabling" for example) in order to "win".

 

I feel that the ONLY way to discourse with this poster on that issue IS to go to a personal place. Since she has said, probably dozens of times, that the institutions of marriage and family are threatened by prostitution - and I am a married person with a family who has NEVER felt even the tiniest vestige of a threat from that source - why is it "attacking" for me to pointedly ask her where her personal feeling of threat in her own married life is stemming from?

 

If somebody wants to choose that road, why should they be granted special "feeling" privileges when they get challenged?

 

Bethe, I always appreciate the way you present your pov even when I don't share it. Why? Because you do not trash other people when you give it.

 

I am completely open to talking and listening about all kinds of diverse beliefs and points of view, and in fact I LOVE doing so. But only if the person with whom I'm talking will explain what they are saying without going to "I'm right and you are wrong," or "God loves people like me and hates people like you," or "we can make up our own meaning for the words we use in this discussion, disregarding their actual definitions," or "I understand the Bible and you don't" (without even speaking about the points raised). And when a person is speaking with ME from those places, I cannot "agree to disagree."

 

I can either argue, or I can ignore. That's up to me.

 

Personally, I think that KathyM has chosen to not answer me because she cannot logically address any of the questions I asked without completely debunking most of what she herself says. And she's claiming to be "attacked" to save face.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[TheFinalWord]

Hello TheFinalWord,

 

I am curious. If you have a daughter, do you believe she has the right to sell her body if she wants to? It is important for fathers to teach their daughters that they are priceless... that they are worth so much more than mere merchandise to buy/sell. It is important for a father to be a great role model to her in how true gentlemen do not go visit prostitutes, but rather is faithful to his own wife, keeping marriage pure and sacred by God's grace.

 

Hi BTB,

 

Of course I would not want her doing that I don't agree with prostitution. I don't really know how you got that I do from my post. Honestly.

 

I'll just leave this thread now. I feel I am being misrepresented. I also don't think God's love is in this thread. I seems like a lot of accusing and backbiting (not just at me). I don't really care to argue about religion, just discuss

[BetheButterfly]

My feelings are just as real as those of person who chooses to come on LoveShack and complain about being attacked, even though I don't ever do that. And I am attacked plenty (not by KathyM).

 

True. Good point, and whoever personally attacks you shouldn't! In my opinion!

I am not attacking. That poster has pushed some pretty sensitive buttons with me ("prostitutes are bad people"

Well, I disagree with prostitutes are bad people. I wonder if maybe she is meaning just the profession in itself, like selling meth is a bad occupation?

 

and then using Jesus and the Bible to back this up) and in other discussions as well, which would be off topic to mention here. I get fired up. That is MY feeling.

Ok, well I can't argue with that.

 

Every conversation and question about the prostitution issue was derailed into an adultery discussion, including KathyM's defending her conscious choice to misuse terms / words ("enabling" for example) in order to "win".

 

I feel that the ONLY way to discourse with this poster on that issue IS to go to a personal place. Since she has said, probably dozens of times, that the institutions of marriage and family are threatened by prostitution - and I am a married person with a family who has NEVER felt even the tiniest vestige of a threat from that source - why is it "attacking" for me to pointedly ask her where her personal feeling of threat in her own married life is stemming from?

I disagree about the "ONLY way" being "to go to a personal place." Since we don't know her personally, it's hard to know if she has experienced a person she knows who betrayed their loved one by going to a prostitute. Personally, I haven't as far as I know. Now, most men aren't going to happily announce to their wives "Oh guess what I did today dear! I went to a prostitute!" especially if they know that that is considered unacceptable by their wives.

 

Maybe she has been hurt?

 

For example, I am pro-life, but one of my good friends is pro-choice. I remember once telling her why I was pro-life, and she felt attacked. Why? Because she had had an abortion. I hurt her feelings. Now, I didn't mean to hurt her feelings! I had no idea she had an abortion. She got angry at me and told me I didn't understand, then burst into tears. When I discovered that she had had an abortion and that she had been sexually abused as a teen, I realized that sometimes people feel attacked due to their own experiences. Since then, I have never ever told her anything about my views on abortion, and my view on abortion actually changed a little in that I do think in difficult cases, as early to conception as possible, it's understandable. I am also for the day after pill now, based on understanding why my friend felt attacked by my personal view. Now, she stills knows I'm prolife. I know she is prochoice, but we agree to disagree. We simply don't talk about it anymore. When I talk to her, we talk about fun stuff and her beautiful kids and her new husband (she had divorced from an abusive husband too) and her job and her studies and what's going on in my life. We stay away from the topic of abortion!!!

 

Now, it is extremely possible that if I had been sexually abused as a teen, gotten pregnant, and had nobody supporting me, I would have gotten an abortion too, and be pro-choice today. I have not had that experience though, since I was not abused and have never even experienced pregnancy. She is a Christian too, by the way, same as me. We accept and love each other in spite of areas in which we disagree. I understand now why she believes what she does concerning abortion, and there is no way I want to hurt her or those who have suffered what she has suffered!

 

Maybe Kathy has experienced something that she is not willing to share with strangers? I don't know. But, we can agree to disagree without knowing everything about another person.

 

If somebody wants to choose that road, why should they be granted special "feeling" privileges when they get challenged?

Maybe they want some things to stay private?

Bethe, I always appreciate the way you present your pov even when I don't share it. Why? Because you do not trash other people when you give it.

Thanks. I appreciate it. Do you see why I am defending KathyM? I don't know her, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and if she feels she is being attacked, why not just concentrate on things that she writes that you might agree with?

 

I am completely open to talking and listening about all kinds of diverse beliefs and points of view, and in fact I LOVE doing so. But only if the person with whom I'm talking will explain what they are saying without going to "I'm right and you are wrong," or "God loves people like me and hates people like you," or "we can make up our own meaning for the words we use in this discussion, disregarding their actual definitions," or "I understand the Bible and you don't" (without even speaking about the points raised). And when a person is speaking with ME from those places, I cannot "agree to disagree."

 

I can either argue, or I can ignore. That's up to me.

 

Personally, I think that KathyM has chosen to not answer me because she cannot logically address any of the questions I asked without completely debunking most of what she herself says. And she's claiming to be "attacked" to save face.

I love discussing with people who believe differently than me too. I learn a lot, and I learn a lot from you and TaraMaiden and Zengirl and others. Thanks so much for addressing my concerns. I hope KathyM is ok... I hope she is not hurting like my good friend was hurting when I didn't even know i was hurting her.

 

Again, I am very careful now how I talk to women who are prochoice, because I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to pry into their lives either to know why they are pro-choice. I do know many have not experienced what my friend has experienced, but it is good to have empathy for people, even for people who believe differently. People can agree to disagree without knowing in detail all the whys. Again, I'm glad my friend told me, but I don't want other women to feel like they have to explain hurtful issues that they or others have experienced which cause them to not want to bring a baby into the world. I don't want them to feel attacked.

 

Maybe this is the case with some women who are against prostitution? Maybe they have experienced a negative that really has affected them?

 

I know if my husband ever goes to a prostitute, I would be completely devastated. I might not be as objective as I am right now. I might be really mad at prostitutes in general? I don't know. I really hope my hubby never goes to a prostitute or cheats on me with a person willing to "do it" for free, but rather that both he and I stay faithful to each other "till death do us part", like we promised each other!

Edited July 10, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

Hi BTB,

 

Of course I would not want her doing that I don't agree with prostitution. I don't really know how you got that I do from my post. Honestly.

 

I'll just leave this thread now. I feel I am being misrepresented. I also don't think God's love is in this thread. I seems like a lot of accusing and backbiting (not just at me). I don't really care to argue about religion, just discuss

 

Hello The Final Word,

 

It was just a question. I was curious and asked you that because you wrote, "I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies. "

 

I personally know my father would not think I can sell my body for sex, even if I wanted to. If I ever had the inkling to do it and told him, he would be shocked. I don't know if he would get angry, or cry. I do know that he would not tell me, "Well you can do what you want with your body." I do think he would beg me to remember what he and my Mom taught me, that my body is a temple for God, not merchandise to be bought/sold or even given to a person who doesn't truly love me and isn't committed to me in marriage.

 

I was asking you because to me, it is important what my father thinks concerning what I do with my body, my mind, and what he and my Mom have taught me. Since my father strives to be like my Heavenly Father, that's important to me.

 

I am sorry if you felt attacked. I was just asking you a question based on what you wrote. i didn't mean to attack you. I only meant to ask if you would like your daughter to be a prostitute. I know without a doubt my Dad, who is an imperfect Christian, wouldn't like his daughters to be prostitutes. If we ever became prostitutes, he would still love us I think, but he would be so sad. My Mom would be too.

Edited July 10, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[TheFinalWord]

Hello The Final Word,

 

It was just a question. I was curious and asked you that because you wrote, "I'm a Christian, but I believe people can do what they want with their bodies. "

 

Yes, and I clarified that in subsequent threads and also provided multiple links with videos where we see examples of how Jesus engaged with prostitutes. Please show me where what I said is in contradiction to that. He often called women he forgave as "Daughter". So I think you can look at Jesus as an example of how to respond to you question. Don't pay attention to me, look at Jesus. Which is the only case I've made in this thread.

 

For example, I just posted I don't agree with prostitution and that no I would not want that for my daughter and yet you still post this:

 

I personally know my father would not think I can sell my body for sex, even if I wanted to. If I ever had the inkling to do it and told him, he would be shocked. I don't know if he would get angry, or cry. I do know that he would not tell me, "Well you can do what you want with your body." I do think he would beg me to remember what he and my Mom taught me, that my body is a temple for God, not merchandise to be bought/sold or even given to a person who doesn't truly love me and isn't committed to me in marriage.

 

I was asking you because to me, it is important what my father thinks concerning what I do with my body, my mind, and what he and my Mom have taught me. Since my father strives to be like my Heavenly Father, that's important to me.

 

I am sorry if you felt attacked. I was just asking you a question based on what you wrote. i didn't mean to attack you. I only meant to ask if you would like your daughter to be a prostitute. I know without a doubt my Dad, who is an imperfect Christian, wouldn't like his daughters to be prostitutes. If we ever became prostitutes, he would still love us I think, but he would be so sad. My Mom would be too.

 

Are you ignoring my post? I fell I already answered that. You can't just extract one line from what I wrote and build a case against that. That's called a straw man argument. It's a logical fallacy. But this is so common place with Christianity and the bible in general. You have to realize the verses we have both been quoting are for believers, not unbelievers. Evangelism is totally different than teaching to Christians.

[BetheButterfly]

Yes, and I clarified that in subsequent threads and also provided multiple links with videos where we see examples of how Jesus engaged with prostitutes. Please show me where what I said is in contradiction to that. He often called women he forgave as "Daughter". So I think you can look at Jesus as an example of how to respond to you question. Don't pay attention to me, look at Jesus. Which is the only case I've made in this thread.

 

For example, I just posted I don't agree with prostitution and that no I would not want that for my daughter and yet you still post this:

 

 

 

Are you ignoring my post? I fell I already answered that. You can't just extract one line from what I wrote and build a case against that. That's called a straw man argument. It's a logical fallacy. But this is so common place with Christianity and the bible in general. You have to realize the verses we have both been quoting are for believers, not unbelievers. Evangelism is totally different than teaching to Christians.

 

I don't think you understand me.

 

I am not attacking you or disagreeing with you. I am merely writing from my and my family's point of view, as well as explaining why I asked you why I did.

 

Again, my question and my explanation for my question are not attacks against you, and I am sorry if you felt attacked.

 

Peace and God bless you

[TheFinalWord]

I don't think you understand me.

 

I am not attacking you or disagreeing with you. I am merely writing from my and my family's point of view, as well as explaining why I asked you why I did.

 

Again, my question and my explanation for my question are not attacks against you, and I am sorry if you felt attacked.

 

Peace and God bless you

 

Okay, I see what you're saying. Thanks for sharing. Take care.

[BetheButterfly]

Okay, I see what you're saying. Thanks for sharing. Take care.

 

You too Again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I do very much agree with what you posted about Jesus and his interactions with people! Thank God for His Amazing Love and Grace!!!

 

Rahab, one of my favorite ladies in the Bible, was a prostitute before she became a great great grandmother of King David!!!

 

I love that, because it shows that God does not hate prostitutes at all.

 

Matthew 1:5 (NIV)

"5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,

Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David."

 

Sincerely,

 

Your sister in Christ

[Mme. Chaucer]

Well, I disagree with prostitutes are bad people. I wonder if maybe she is meaning just the profession in itself, like selling meth is a bad occupation?

 

That was where she backpedalled to when confronted. I believe she thinks that "prostitutes are bad people" who consciously and intentionally prey upon and victimize families. I believe this because of a myriad of posts stating exactly that. And because I am acquainted with many people of that exact mindset.

 

For example, I am pro-life, but one of my good friends is pro-choice. I remember once telling her why I was pro-life, and she felt attacked. Why? Because she had had an abortion.

 

So why isn't poor KathyM getting admonished for saying something that would be very hurtful to any prostitutes reading that thread? And there was one, too. Is it because, as a self-professed Christian, whatever she says or does in the name of that belief system must be unassailable? But a regular old heathen is scrutinized and held to a standard?

 

Bethe, I don't think that you believe this way, but you surely know that a lot of evil is done under the name of Christianity, including murdering doctors who perform abortions and carrying signs around that say things like "God Hates Fags."

 

Well, I hate that. When I get a sense of it I fight against it.

 

Here is a little true story that is off topic but relevant to this conversation, I think.

 

As I've written before, I am married to a "PK" (pastor's kid) who was raised in the most strict, fundamentalist Baptist household imaginable.

 

When he grew up, he "backslid" but still was a very active and respected member of his local congregation, a friend of the pastor and a board member.

 

It was decided that a mass of tiny white crosses would be placed all over the considerable grounds of the church. They represented the "murdered" unborn babies.

 

My husband, who was still very rigid, from my perspective anyway, had a crisis of faith with his church at that moment.

 

Why?

 

Because putting those crosses out there was exclusionary. What woman who had had an abortion, or who was struggling with the possibility of having one, or who needed to talk about it, would feel welcomed and safe walking through the rows and rows of MURDERED babies to get through the doors of that church?

 

Probably none.

 

My husband left his church over that; well, it was the final straw in a big haystack. Also, his own daughter had had an abortion.

 

If you take away all the bullsh*t, Christianity is supposed to be about love at its very core. That is what I believe. Even though I'm not one.

[BetheButterfly]

That was where she backpedalled to when confronted. I believe she thinks that "prostitutes are bad people" who consciously and intentionally prey upon and victimize families. I believe this because of a myriad of posts stating exactly that. And because I am acquainted with many people of that exact mindset.

 

So why isn't poor KathyM getting admonished for saying something that would be very hurtful to any prostitutes reading that thread? And there was one, too. Is it because, as a self-professed Christian, whatever she says or does in the name of that belief system must be unassailable? But a regular old heathen is scrutinized and held to a standard?

 

If someone wants to report KathyM's post, I am sure they are free to do so. On another forum, I have experienced people calling Christians "stupid", "crazy", and so on. I have reported it, as well as reporting a Christian who was insulting Muslims by calling them "idiot".

 

Now, I don't remember anybody calling Christians "bad" but I'm sure there are "bad" Christians, same as there are "good" Christians. I hope to not be a "bad" question, but if someone thinks I am, that is their right to think that.

 

If however anybody insulted anyone, it would be good to report.

 

Bethe, I don't think that you believe this way, but you surely know that a lot of evil is done under the name of Christianity, including murdering doctors who perform abortions and carrying signs around that say things like "God Hates Fags."

 

True. However, it is important to note that Jesus teaches love, not hate, so those who murder doctors or anybody, or preach hatred are not obeying Jesus' commands to love.

 

Well, I hate that. When I get a sense of it I fight against it.

 

Here is a little true story that is off topic but relevant to this conversation, I think.

 

As I've written before, I am married to a "PK" (pastor's kid) who was raised in the most strict, fundamentalist Baptist household imaginable.

 

When he grew up, he "backslid" but still was a very active and respected member of his local congregation, a friend of the pastor and a board member.

 

It was decided that a mass of tiny white crosses would be placed all over the considerable grounds of the church. They represented the "murdered" unborn babies.

 

My husband, who was still very rigid, from my perspective anyway, had a crisis of faith with his church at that moment.

 

Why?

 

Because putting those crosses out there was exclusionary. What woman who had had an abortion, or who was struggling with the possibility of having one, or who needed to talk about it, would feel welcomed and safe walking through the rows and rows of MURDERED babies to get through the doors of that church?

 

Probably none.

 

My husband left his church over that; well, it was the final straw in a big haystack. Also, his own daughter had had an abortion.

 

I understand how that would bother him. It would bother me too.

If you take away all the bullsh*t,Christianity is supposed to be about love at its very core. That is what I believe. Even though I'm not one.

 

You are right that Christianity is about loving God and loving others, like Jesus said. I am not sure about what you consider the "bullsh*t", but yeah, Christianity is following Jesus' commands, which focus on love. That's a very important point, which I think The Final Word expressed well, yeah?

[TheFinalWord]

You too Again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I do very much agree with what you posted about Jesus and his interactions with people! Thank God for His Amazing Love and Grace!!!

 

Rahab, one of my favorite ladies in the Bible, was a prostitute before she became a great great grandmother of King David!!!

 

I love that, because it shows that God does not hate prostitutes at all.

 

Matthew 1:5 (NIV)

"5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,

Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David."

 

Sincerely,

 

Your sister in Christ

 

Yeah! Same with Bathsheba, mother of Solomon

 

Good movie about that scenario:

 

The Bible Series - David part 2.avi- YouTube

[KathyM]

I don't see why challenging a POV should be seen as a 'personal attack.' It is my observation that some religious people (not all, certainly) will often do this when anything they view as a religious reasoning is challenged. I would love it if religion were truly personal, but as long as it is used as an argument for or against anything that impacts others, it is no longer personal. Thus in this context, religious matters and opinions are not personal, they are about the topic, and all logical fallacies and such are not personal either, they are about the topic.

 

Calling something a "personal attack" seems to me an easy way to get out of a debate that one cannot argue with logic and a false choice. Religious faith ceases to be personal when you choose to discuss it or put it forward as an argument, IMO. It's a cheap shot to take a religious view on why something is 'wrong' and then say your view cannot be debated because it's your personal religion.

Well, considering that Madam Chaucer has called me a hateful cultist who feels threatened and afraid that my husband is going to cheat on me with a hooker, not to mention having my personal religious beliefs attacked just because I am opposed to prostitution, I'd say that constitutes a personal attack, but I guess everyone has their definitions of what constitutes a personal attack. I am not the one who made the prostitution debate about Christianity or religion. That was Madam Chaucer who brought that topic into the debate, which is why the moderators moved it here. I was debating the prostitution issue on the grounds that it is harmful to marriages and families, it exploits women and children, it increases human trafficking in countries where it is legalized, and it is degrading to women and children to be bought and sold like pieces of meat.

[BetheButterfly]

Now, I don't remember anybody calling Christians "bad" but I'm sure there are "bad" Christians, same as there are "good" Christians. I hope to not be a "bad" question, but if someone thinks I am, that is their right to think that.

 

 

Lol... I meant "bad" Christian, not question

 

Anyways, we don't know KathyM. Even though I personally don't know her, I believe she is my sister in Christ, and I hope she is ok. I also hope any prostitute who reads this, regardless of his or her belief in Christ, is ok.

 

People are diverse, and it's cool when we can agree to disagree.

 

I have to go now. I can't believe I it's so late!!!

[KathyM]

Some people can't help being emotional while debating. However, it is true that it is best to not let one's own emotions interfere. Perhaps that is why KathyM decided to no longer answer the OP. It is possible. Emotions are sometimes difficult to control.

 

 

You wrote, "At any rate, you did not address my basic point -- the cheap shot of using your religion to make a point and then deflecting any criticism of the logic of your point and your religion by calling it "personal" and declaring it out of bounds. That's simply not a fair argument, at that point, in my view. "

 

I was curious where I did the above, which is why I asked you where have I done that.

 

 

 

When I see a person feels personally attacked, whether on a forum or in real life, I take a stand. That's how I am personally, and I feel for KathyM, because here she has been for a long time, as far as I know, explaining what she believes and why, and is constantly having to answer questions/statements characterizing her in a negative way. Now, I disagree with her in some areas. For example, I don't believe prostitutes are bad people. However, I don't have to attack her view or her personally in order to express my view that prostitutes are people God loves same as everyone else.

 

Where does Christianity come from? It is true that the USA has a lot of history with Christianity, since many of the European immigrants to the "New World" came here to escape religious persecution. Sadly, it is horrible that they in turn killed and stole from Native Americans, as well as many enslaving African people. However, that's a different topic and thank God, many Christians, especially some Quakers and people like Elijah Lovejoy, fought against slavery because of their beliefs in all people being equal under God. I personally subscribe to the belief that slavery is unacceptable, due to my belief in God and that all people are equal in His eyes.

 

See, all the above is great, because you are not attacking any person. I have no problem with how you are debating with me right now.

 

I do not have a problem with prostitution being illegal and I do not have a problem with slavery being illegal. I wish both had always been illegal here in the USA. Regardless, I am glad that Christians who understand about obeying Jesus' teachings, have helped rescue slaves, both sexual slaves and other slaves, in the USA's history. I personally know women today who are actively helping rescue girls and women who are being trafficked. Some are from countries where prostitution is legal, like Colombia. Sad to say, many poor girls are trapped into prostitution through drugs and sent to other places in the world, including the USA where prostitution is illegal. I am glad there are women who are helping rescue them, because many of them have dreams that do not include selling their bodies to people who just want to use them and who do not truly love them.

I think it's best to avoid debating with people who routinely engage in personal attacks rather than debate the issues. I'm always interested in debating the topic if people can do so civilly. I appreciate your sticking up for me on here, Bee. Thank you.

[KathyM]

True. Good point, and whoever personally attacks you shouldn't! In my opinion!

Well, I disagree with prostitutes are bad people. I wonder if maybe she is meaning just the profession in itself, like selling meth is a bad occupation?

 

Ok, well I can't argue with that.

 

I disagree about the "ONLY way" being "to go to a personal place." Since we don't know her personally, it's hard to know if she has experienced a person she knows who betrayed their loved one by going to a prostitute. Personally, I haven't as far as I know. Now, most men aren't going to happily announce to their wives "Oh guess what I did today dear! I went to a prostitute!" especially if they know that that is considered unacceptable by their wives.

 

Maybe she has been hurt?

 

For example, I am pro-life, but one of my good friends is pro-choice. I remember once telling her why I was pro-life, and she felt attacked. Why? Because she had had an abortion. I hurt her feelings. Now, I didn't mean to hurt her feelings! I had no idea she had an abortion. She got angry at me and told me I didn't understand, then burst into tears. When I discovered that she had had an abortion and that she had been sexually abused as a teen, I realized that sometimes people feel attacked due to their own experiences. Since then, I have never ever told her anything about my views on abortion, and my view on abortion actually changed a little in that I do think in difficult cases, as early to conception as possible, it's understandable. I am also for the day after pill now, based on understanding why my friend felt attacked by my personal view. Now, she stills knows I'm prolife. I know she is prochoice, but we agree to disagree. We simply don't talk about it anymore. When I talk to her, we talk about fun stuff and her beautiful kids and her new husband (she had divorced from an abusive husband too) and her job and her studies and what's going on in my life. We stay away from the topic of abortion!!!

 

Now, it is extremely possible that if I had been sexually abused as a teen, gotten pregnant, and had nobody supporting me, I would have gotten an abortion too, and be pro-choice today. I have not had that experience though, since I was not abused and have never even experienced pregnancy. She is a Christian too, by the way, same as me. We accept and love each other in spite of areas in which we disagree. I understand now why she believes what she does concerning abortion, and there is no way I want to hurt her or those who have suffered what she has suffered!

 

Maybe Kathy has experienced something that she is not willing to share with strangers? I don't know. But, we can agree to disagree without knowing everything about another person.

 

Maybe they want some things to stay private?

Thanks. I appreciate it. Do you see why I am defending KathyM? I don't know her, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and if she feels she is being attacked, why not just concentrate on things that she writes that you might agree with?

 

I love discussing with people who believe differently than me too. I learn a lot, and I learn a lot from you and TaraMaiden and Zengirl and others. Thanks so much for addressing my concerns. I hope KathyM is ok... I hope she is not hurting like my good friend was hurting when I didn't even know i was hurting her.

 

Again, I am very careful now how I talk to women who are prochoice, because I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to pry into their lives either to know why they are pro-choice. I do know many have not experienced what my friend has experienced, but it is good to have empathy for people, even for people who believe differently. People can agree to disagree without knowing in detail all the whys. Again, I'm glad my friend told me, but I don't want other women to feel like they have to explain hurtful issues that they or others have experienced which cause them to not want to bring a baby into the world. I don't want them to feel attacked.

 

Maybe this is the case with some women who are against prostitution? Maybe they have experienced a negative that really has affected them?

 

I know if my husband ever goes to a prostitute, I would be completely devastated. I might not be as objective as I am right now. I might be really mad at prostitutes in general? I don't know. I really hope my hubby never goes to a prostitute or cheats on me with a person willing to "do it" for free, but rather that both he and I stay faithful to each other "till death do us part", like we promised each other!

I do know of someone, a friend, whose husband went to see a prostitute when they were going through a very rough time in their marriage. I saw how much that action hurt this woman, and how hard it was for them to recover from that. I have seen and read about the damage that it does to marriages and to families. I have also read a lot about how women get into the profession often as children, who come from abusive homes many times, or who are coerced or forced into it by men who seek to profit from their exploitation. I've also read of how psychologically damaging it is for them, and of how they want to leave the profession, but often feel trapped or coerced into staying. But I would agree that the profession is what I have an issue with. A profession that is destructive in many ways. So I do think lowly of a destructive profession, just like I would think lowly of a drug dealer's profession. I could also have compassion for a drug dealer or a thief who turned to crime because of a terrible childhood. But to feel compassion for a criminal who commits his crime because of selfishness or greed, and who has no concern for those whom his actions hurt, that would be a little more difficult to have compassion for. So I am trying to debate the destructiveness of the profession of prostitution, and I don't feel wrong in calling it out as destructive to marriages, families, women and children, and even the men who screw up their marriages, families, reputations, etc. because they elected to do this instead of working on improving their relationship with their wife.

[zengirl]

That was where she backpedalled to when confronted. I believe she thinks that "prostitutes are bad people" who consciously and intentionally prey upon and victimize families. I believe this because of a myriad of posts stating exactly that. And because I am acquainted with many people of that exact mindset.

 

Agree entirely with this as a characterization of the POV that you were reacting to. It is basically what she said repeatedly in the thread this broke off from.

 

I also feel like secular morality is often ignored by Christians and many Christians give each other a pass for some pretty ugly thoughts because they share the same religion (I'm sure that's the same in many groups and religions, but it's Christians that do it where I live in the Deep South).

 

Well, considering that Madam Chaucer has called me a hateful cultist who feels threatened and afraid that my husband is going to cheat on me with a hooker, not to mention having my personal religious beliefs attacked just because I am opposed to prostitution,

 

KathyM, that would be something to report to moderators - of which I am not. I will say I didn't see this in the post you quoted and responded to or anywhere in this thread. Rather, in the post I saw you respond to and claim was a personal attack was actually a series of logical questions designed to probe deeper into your POV. I would've been very curious to see the answers, honestly, and not because I have anything against you but because you really don't seem to probe any deeper into your POV in this.

 

In the other thread, I asked you (and honestly meant it) why you felt a marriage was less threatened if a partner WANTED to have sex with someone else and tried to but none was available to him/her, and you really didn't answer the question. These are the kind of things I'd be really interested to see you actually think about and respond reflectively. Truly. That's not meant to be an attack at you, but rather . . . it just seems like your perspective on this is very kneejerk and not adapting to new questions and debate. To me, I always wonder about perspectives like that. All POVs that cannot stand up to rigorous questioning are lacking, IMO, but that's just my opinion.

 

At any rate, I'd love to see you actually answer those questions. With some thought. I think MC was posing them as sincere questions.

 

I was debating the prostitution issue on the grounds that it is harmful to marriages and families, it exploits women and children, it increases human trafficking in countries where it is legalized, and it is degrading to women and children to be bought and sold like pieces of meat.

 

For the record, I don't think anyone in this, or the other thread, is anything but firmly anti child prostitution and forced prostitution.

[Mme. Chaucer]

My opinion, KathyM, is that you can't bolster your claims and back up your arguments so instead, you cry "attack."

 

If you were to answer (thoughtfully, not just repeating rhetoric) the questions I asked you, we could get to a whole different level of communication and understanding.

 

I certainly don't intend to change your mind, but I would like to get you to think about things that are being discussed - and which YOU are participating in discussing.

 

Instead, you simply say a version of "it's true because I say so, and I've read studies and the Bible." Over and over.

 

If that's all you have, then so be it. If you are going to denigrate other people or other ways of thinking and living than your own as you go about this style of making your points, you really should be prepared for some ire to come your way often.

 

Usually, that style of "discussion" is best kept in a place where everyone is 100% likeminded. Preaching to the choir type of thing.

[irin]

I don't just like this, I love it so much I may do nasty things to my computer screen. If someone doesn't believe in prostitution, I invite them not to **** hookers. If certain priests could freely seek out prostitutes, they might leave the little boys alone. But I will stop there. Not trying to offend anybody.

 

hookers dont solve the issue of paedophilia. priests or not!