M30USA Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) (Firstly, just in case someone doesn't know who John Calvin is, he is one of the most influencial theologians in Christian history. He developed the idea of Calvinism, which states that God has predetermined select individuals to be saved and to become heirs of his kingdom. But please do not argue Calvinism on this thread.) Calvin said that the Holy Spirit (an actual spiritual person) is responsible for any and every person who comes to the knowledge of God. Without the Holy Spirit, it is literally impossible for a person to have the knowledge of God or even please God. It's very interesting that Calvin believed the presence (or absence) of the Holy Spirit is what determines that person's view of Scripture. In the case of a believer, what happens FIRST is that the Holy Spirit makes them aware of who God is and begins to reveal truth to that person. What happens NEXT is they stumble upon the Bible (either immediately or much later on) and, when they read the text, they recognize it as truth. They don't believe it based solely on empirical evidence; and they don't believe it because they've been raised to believe such and such. But what's important to realize is the order of these two events is exactly opposite of what most people think does, or even should, happen. It's not that a person believes the Bible because it contains evidence. It's that the Spirit is present FIRST. Then, and only then, will they read the Bible and see it as truth. To all others it is merely a book of text, which at best contains practical wisdom. The Bible itself is written for those who already have the Spirit. It doesn't attempt to validate itself. So, with that being said, I can completely understand why a person without the Spirit would behold the Bible and think of it as just another book. John Calvin proposed this idea, based on the principles of Scripture, and I believe he nailed it. Edited July 9, 2012 by M30USA Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Are you saying the Holy Spirit just randomly selects people first? Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Are you saying the Holy Spirit just randomly selects people first? The Holy Spirit is God--one of the three persons in the trinity. Jesus even referred to the Holy Spirit as "He". Since the Holy Spirit is God, he chooses whomever he pleases. There is no biblical support for the idea that it has ANYTHING to do with our own actions or efforts. Yet I wouldn't say it's "random". I believe "random" is a word used by finite humans to describe the events which are dictated by an infinite God. Edited July 9, 2012 by M30USA Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 The Holy Spirit is God--one of the three persons in the trinity. Jesus even referred to the Holy Spirit as "He". Since the Holy Spirit is God, he chooses whomever he pleases. There is no biblical support for the idea that it has ANYTHING to do with our own actions or efforts. Yet I wouldn't say it's "random". I believe "random" is a word used by finite humans to describe the events which are dictated by an infinite God. Whichever way you spin it, it just sounds like a egomaniacal God randomly selecting people to dictate to. The book I'm currently reading (A Course in Miracles) says the exact opposite. That the Holy Spirit is in all of us and speaks to us all the time but we can't hear him because of the incessant noise of the ego. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not lose even a single person whom God had chosen for him. If God has elected you, you WILL be saved and perfected into the likeness of Jesus. I can completely see why you might say that God is egomaniacal. But you are talking back to God as a mere human and seeing his actions from a fallen, evil human perspective (which we all have). Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 My personal theory: Even though it's completely illogical and contradictory, I believe that we simultaneously are chosen by God without any say of our own AND we have complete choice to accept or reject God. Again, it's completely irrational but I have concluded based on the Scripture that these two principles work together on a higher logical plane. Don't ask me how! Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not lose even a single person whom God had chosen for him. If God has elected you, you WILL be saved and perfected into the likeness of Jesus. I can completely see why you might say that God is egomaniacal. But you are talking back to God as a mere human and seeing his actions from a fallen, evil human perspective (which we all have). So what are you supposed to do? Sit around waiting for God to "elect you"? What if he doesn't, are you then doomed for eternity? Christians talk about a loving/forgiving God but describe the antithesis of this, there's nothing loving in what you describe. People have been projecting their mere human beliefs onto God for thousands of years, this is just more of the same. Does the Holy Spirit talk to you? Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 So what are you supposed to do? Sit around waiting for God to "elect you"? Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. -Hebrews 3:7-8 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. -Isaiah 55:6 What if he doesn't, are you then doomed for eternity? We are already doomed for eternity, regardless of whether God has mercy on us or not. Christians talk about a loving/forgiving God but describe the antithesis of this, there's nothing loving in what you describe. People have been projecting their mere human beliefs onto God for thousands of years, this is just more of the same. One reason why I believe the Bible is because it is so DIFFERENT from the way humans think. This is the very reason why it's ridiculed so much. Because it's so different so as to appear foolish or stupid. Does the Holy Spirit talk to you? I've never heard an audible voice. I would guess that MOST Christians also have not heard an audible voice, but rather an impluse which, when examined, lines up with Scripture. However, I have full faith that some people have heard audible voices. Paul the Apostle heard an audible voice come from a blinding light in the sky. I also believe that Noah must have heard an audible voice or something VERY concrete, otherwise he wouldn't have received the dimensions of the ark down to the exact unit. (Sounds like an angelic revelation to me.) Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. -Hebrews 3:7-8 That pretty much says the same thing as the book I'm reading, the voice is always there but we don't hear it because of the noise of the ego (hardening the heart). We are already doomed for eternity, regardless of whether God has mercy on us or not. Oh dear, what's the point of it all so? However, I have full faith that some people have heard audible voices. Paul the Apostle heard an audible voice come from a blinding light in the sky. I also believe that Noah must have heard an audible voice or something VERY concrete, otherwise he wouldn't have received the dimensions of the ark down to the exact unit. (Sounds like an angelic revelation to me.) Has the Holy Spirit had nothing to say for the past couple of thousand years? Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 People have been projecting their mere human beliefs onto God for thousands of years, this is just more of the same. You want to see what a god looks like made from human projection? Look at the Greek and Roman gods. They were all liars, sexually perverted, and senslessly violent. Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You want to see what a god looks like made from human projection? Look at the Greek and Roman gods. They were all liars, sexually perverted, and senslessly violent. The God you're describing is no better, he randomly picks people to talk to, randomly saves people and yet we're all doomed for eternity regardless of his mercy or not. If that's not human projection, then frankly I don't know what is. This is why I have no time for Christianity, it's like some insane game where nobody really knows the rules and God is some whimsical dictator who randomly selects people based on who knows what? but if you question anything "it's God's will and we're not supposed to know why, or even ask why". Yet we're still supposed to love this egomaniac. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Has the Holy Spirit had nothing to say for the past couple of thousand years? NOTE: This is my theory. If I'm wrong, it doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. I suspect that we may, indeed, be in what you might call a "silent" period during God's plan. Everything has pretty much been finalized now that Christ has come. Everything which took place before Christ came was all for the purpose of revealing the necessary information of what WOULD happen in the future since man (at that time) did not have the Gospel. This is why we had prophets, revelations, visions, etc. It is my OPINION that this current "silent" period does NOT have prophets, revelations, and visions. Why would we need them? If you understand the purpose of these things, you would realize they are not currently needed. However, the Bible does say that during the end times, certain men will have dreams and visions. Perhaps the purpose of these coming dreams and visions is to herald that Christ is about to come. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 The God you're describing is no better, he randomly picks people to talk to, randomly saves people and yet we're all doomed for eternity regardless of his mercy or not. If that's not human projection, then frankly I don't know what is. How is that human projection? If humans had designed the world, we would all be the same. Just look at what our government is trying to do with all the egalitarian philosophy. Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 How is that human projection? If humans had designed the world, we would all be the same. Just look at what our government is trying to do with all the egalitarian philosophy. It's human projection because it's insane, and let's face it we live in an insane world where there's no cause and effect. For example I could commit a crime and get off on some legal loophole whereas another person could commit a lesser crime and end up imprisoned for years. Events unfold in this world as if they are random rather than engineered from the highest levels, so most people are dazed and confused by life and project this onto God. The God you describe is neither loving, forgiving nor merciful, he actually sounds like you're describing a psychopath. Certain humans are pushing the egalitarian philosophy which is equality based on the illusion that we are not all equal (under God) because they know that deep down we all understand inherently that we are equal under God, so it's a game of bait and switch. Christianity has set up a system where people feel rejected by God but comes up with all kinds of bizarre explanations to justify this rejection and further its agenda. So rote biblical regurgitation replaces listening to the inner voice, while sin/guilt/shame/fear keep people stuck in an endless cycle of hope and despare drowning out that voice of the Holy Spirit. You started the thread saying that people have a connection with the Holy Spirit before coming to scripture yet you say the Holy Spirit hasn't talked to anyone for a couple of thousand years. Can't you see how insane this is? How the game is rigged? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 I said there haven't been prophets or revelations since Christ (or John's vision of Revelation on Patmos). I didn't say the Holy Spirit doesn't still lead people to the truth. And by the way, the book of Ecckesiastes admits that some wicked people live long in their wickedness while some righteous people are cut short in their righteousness. Based on what Jesus said in the parable of the weeds (look it up), God is leaving the wicked and the good together until the final harvest because, just like a sower who doesn't want to risk pulling up crops with the weeds, he is leaving the wicked (and wickedness) here so that he doesn't pull up those who are being trained in righteousness. Link to post Share on other sites
NXS Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I said there haven't been prophets or revelations since Christ (or John's vision of Revelation on Patmos). I didn't say the Holy Spirit doesn't still lead people to the truth. And by the way, the book of Ecckesiastes admits that some wicked people live long in their wickedness while some righteous people are cut short in their righteousness. Based on what Jesus said in the parable of the weeds (look it up), God is leaving the wicked and the good together until the final harvest because, just like a sower who doesn't want to risk pulling up crops with the weeds, he is leaving the wicked (and wickedness) here so that he doesn't pull up those who are being trained in righteousness. Wickedness/righteousness are two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other which is the illusion of duality. In duality nothing can exist without it's opposite, in God's world there is no opposites i.e. there's no opposites in the trinity. Again it's another bait and switch, we inherently know there's a right mind so the ego sets up a system of right-minded ego thinking to keep us in an endless loop listening to one side of the ego talking to the other side rather than stop listening to it altogether. That's why Christians have such a hard time living up to what they say they believe, the more they try to be 'righteous' the more the other side continues to pull them down. It's an endless game that's impossible to get out of at that level. Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (Firstly, just in case someone doesn't know who John Calvin is, he is one of the most influencial theologians in Christian history. He developed the idea of Calvinism, which states that God has predetermined select individuals to be saved and to become heirs of his kingdom. But please do not argue Calvinism on this thread.) Calvin said that the Holy Spirit (an actual spiritual person) is responsible for any and every person who comes to the knowledge of God. Without the Holy Spirit, it is literally impossible for a person to have the knowledge of God or even please God. It's very interesting that Calvin believed the presence (or absence) of the Holy Spirit is what determines that person's view of Scripture. In the case of a believer, what happens FIRST is that the Holy Spirit makes them aware of who God is and begins to reveal truth to that person. What happens NEXT is they stumble upon the Bible (either immediately or much later on) and, when they read the text, they recognize it as truth. They don't believe it based solely on empirical evidence; and they don't believe it because they've been raised to believe such and such. But what's important to realize is the order of these two events is exactly opposite of what most people think does, or even should, happen. It's not that a person believes the Bible because it contains evidence. It's that the Spirit is present FIRST. Then, and only then, will they read the Bible and see it as truth. To all others it is merely a book of text, which at best contains practical wisdom. The Bible itself is written for those who already have the Spirit. It doesn't attempt to validate itself. So, with that being said, I can completely understand why a person without the Spirit would behold the Bible and think of it as just another book. John Calvin proposed this idea, based on the principles of Scripture, and I believe he nailed it. I personally do not ascribe to the doctrine of Calvinism, though I do understand that there are passages of the Bible that most definitely seem to support the idea John Calvin had. The concept of predestination in the Bible is related to God's knowing of all time: past, present, and future. Since He knows everything that ever happened regardless of time, it is understandable that He knows, even before they are born, who will use their free will to believe in Him. as well as all events. Nothing is a surprise to Him. So, I personally think the predestination idea is simply a part of God being omniscient and not being limited by time. About the Holy Spirit, I consider the Holy Spirit who Jesus promised his followers, accounted in John 14-16, to be the very same Spirit of God referenced in the following verses in the Christian Bible: Genesis 1:2, Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3, Numbers 11:29, Numbers 24:2, 1 Samuel 10:10, 1 Chronicles 12:18, 2 Chronicles 15:1, Psalm 51:11, Psalm 143:10, Ezekiel 8:3, Daniel 4:8, Joel 2:28-29, Matthew 3:16. The above are not the only references to the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit, but to me it is so cool how Jesus promised what Moses himself wished in Numbers 11:29, which begins to fulfill Joel's prophecy of 2:28-29 too! I believe the giving of the Holy Spirit first started as accounted in Acts 2, to the followers of Jesus who had actually walked and talked with him! I believe by God's mercy, the Holy Spirit continues to come to those who ask, including me! I do very much agree one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible. That is a very good point. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) I didn't buy into Calvinism until recently. I was an advocate of free will with regards to salvation for most of my life so far. To me, Calvinism does seem a little rigid and even unfair in a way, yet it's the only explanation which is consistent with the world around me. No other explanation seems to explain, for example, why a person can be witnessed to and witnessed to, prayed for over and over, yet they don't accept Christ even to their death; while others just wake up one day and suddenly just believe, or maybe it's gradual over time but it results in eventual belief. I have realized that, as a witness, I have ZERO control over whether or not a person believes the message. My only role is to present it. God, and God alone, decides whether that message will find good soil and be watered, producing faith which leads to salvation. Edited July 10, 2012 by M30USA Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 john calvin was a drunkard The apostle Paul was a murderer. Your point? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) the apostal paul didnt exist Neither did Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, King Henry, George Washington, or Pocohontas. Anyway, dude, I'm not going to respond to your instigatory posts which lack substance. Edited July 12, 2012 by M30USA 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If you want to know how Christ obtains disciplines, you can see how in the Gospel of John PS: i like this movie it is word for word the Gospel of John The Bible - Gospel Of John - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube He found the disciplines through various ways. Also many turned away from him (parable of the sower). You're a smart guy so I'll let you study it and see what you think. Link to post Share on other sites
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