Trying to solve a family dispute!

[Mycteria]

Need some objective opinions on an issue that is causing problems with my sister, who I am normally very close to. Sorry so long.

 

THE FACTS

 

A year ago, my sister was living with our mom and desperately needed a car, which my mom could not afford.

 

I agreed to take the money out of my savings account to use as collateral for a car for my sister so that she could get a car immediately and pay almost no interest. My sister couldn't get a loan on her own and my mom's credit was too bad to cosign for another loan. I did it because at the time, I could afford it. I also did it on the condition that 1) my mom was going to sell her car as soon as possible and pay me back for my sister's car and 2) even if this didn't happen, my sister promised me that she was going to pay the car off as quickly as possible (making extra payments and such).

 

Fast forward a year later. My mom has not paid me back, as partially expected. My mom lost her job and moved away. I allowed my sister to move in with me so that she could save up money to move out of state, which she desperately wants to do. I have recently ended my relationship with my fiance (who we both live with right now) and am trying to buy a house of my own. I need all the extra money I can get, including the money that is locked up right now because of my sister's car loan. I have been harassing my mother to sell her car so that she can pay me back as she promised to do, but I'm not sure whether it's going to happen or not. I asked my sister if she could pay the loan off herself. She said that she could, but she didn't want to.

 

HER SIDE:

 

She doesn't want to pay off the loan because she is saving up to try and move out of state, and this will set her back another year. She says that I put myself in this situation where I need to buy a house (I have lots of pets and can't really get an apartment). If she pays off the car, it will empty her savings that she has been working for the last 6 months to accumulate. She claims that I am "taking all her money" and that something always happens that sets her back so that she can't move away.

 

MY SIDE:

 

I want to buy a house and the only thing that is really stopping me from trying is lack of a down payment. I don't want to rent an apartment because of my pets but also because it is throwing money away. Bottom line - I want to buy a house with my own money. She has the money to pay me back, she just doesn't want to. It's not my fault that our mother can't pay me back. It's not my car. It's HER car. I feel TERRIBLE for having to ask it of her, but I have also been somewhat surprised that she hasn't already offered. She knows that it's what is stopping me from buying a house.

 

I also told her that once I buy a house, she can live with me virtually rent free like she does now, and can continue to save up the money to move out of state. In fact, it will be even easier to do so because she won't be paying $300 a month for a car note and full coverage insurance. Even if she only saves the $300 each month, that's still $3600 by the end of the year. She is mad that I'm asking this of her and feels like I should have been harassing our mom this whole time to pay off the car. I feel like it should have never been my responsibility. SHE should have been the one to harass mom about it. SHE should be the one going to mom and helping her sell her car. Not me.

 

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Objective opinions please? Like I said, I feel bad for even having to ask her for the money. But at the same time, I am not trying to screw her over. I realize this will be emptying her savings account which is a scary thought for anyone. But I am offering for her to stay with me and pay virtually no rent until she can leave. She is only 18, it's not like she doesn't have plenty of time to save up the money.

[alvitdk]

Sorry but I have no patience for ungrateful and selfish people. Not sure about your mom, if she lost her job thats bad and I would give her some time, but again I'm not sure about your relationship with her.

 

Your sister on the other hand, dump her butt into the street and tell her to find her own place to stay, or start to collect rent. After-all it was a car for her, and not your mom, correct?

 

It's too bad you can't choose your relatives, there is always a freeloader in every family.

[SpiralOut]

Did you ask her to pay you in installments? She really should pay you all of it upfront since she's able to, but since she's not doing that you may have to compromise.

 

I'm wondering what will happen once she saves up enough to move away and then blows all of her savings doing that. How will she pay you back then?

[Mycteria]

Your sister on the other hand, dump her butt into the street and tell her to find her own place to stay, or start to collect rent. After-all it was a car for her, and not your mom, correct?

I do collect rent from her. When she moved in with me, I asked her to pay $150 a month. It's not much but I'm not letting her live with me completely for free. Just clarifying. If I was able to buy another house, I would probably charge her even less because my mortgage on that house would be virtually nothing.

 

Did you ask her to pay you in installments? She really should pay you all of it upfront since she's able to, but since she's not doing that you may have to compromise.

 

I'm wondering what will happen once she saves up enough to move away and then blows all of her savings doing that. How will she pay you back then?

She is paying the loan in installments. I didn't buy the car, I just put up the money for the car as collateral and then took out a loan for the car in my name against my savings. I did this so that she would get the car immediately and so that she would have to pay almost no interest. She pays me the installments each month. The problem is that paying the loan in installments is not going to give me the down payment I need for the house, as the loan won't be paid off for another 2 years. So I won't get my money back for 2 years.

 

UPDATE on her side of the story:

 

She has decided that she is not going to pay me back for the car. Her reasoning is that up to this point, I have not asked her to pay more than the bare minimum each month, so I can't just suddenly ask her to pay the whole thing off. Also, she says that if she had taken the loan out from the bank, with an agreement to pay a certain amount each month, they would not suddenly ask her to pay the loan in full. So I guess I shouldn't do that either.

 

(The reason I never asked her to pay more than the bare minimum each month up until now is because I didn't need the money and I knew she was trying to move out of state and wanted to save as much money as possible. I also didn't realize that I was a bank. )

[alvitdk]

Well, that changes i up a bit. If you agreed to those low monthly payments indeed it would upset me too, your sister probably arranged her expenses to fit her monthly bill. Asking her now to pay the full amount is a stretch, on the other hand she would never had a car without you......very complicated and I understand both points

 

Sorry, not sure what I would do, maybe a give and take for both of you, she needs to pay a bit more and postpone her moving plans by 6 month, and so will you.

[Radu]

Well, tbh, i don't think you can blame the mother fully.

Over here we have a law where kids are responsible for their parents if they are incapacitated and the kids are under 30 [they can be sued over this].

Plus she raised you, and she lost her job.

You could blame her for not fixing this situation before leaving.

 

Your sister OTOH, what a piece of work.

Seems her mentality is 'my money is my money, and your money is our money'.

When you get to finding loopholes, for deals between siblings ... that's not a healthy relationship.

The offer you made her was pretty good tbh, if by selling the car and buying the house she can still get to work.

Also, what kinf of car did she get that she pays 300 a month for ?

Doesn't sound like a second hand car to me.

 

I think there are legal ways in which you can force her/them to give you the money back, but you will make it a big drama in the family and you will look like the big meanie.

 

I think you will need to be the bigger person here and continue living with rent.

Remember that a house ties you down, rent doesn't and the economy might force you to move.

[Mycteria]

Well, that changes i up a bit. If you agreed to those low monthly payments indeed it would upset me too, your sister probably arranged her expenses to fit her monthly bill. Asking her now to pay the full amount is a stretch, on the other hand she would never had a car without you......very complicated and I understand both points

 

Sorry, not sure what I would do, maybe a give and take for both of you, she needs to pay a bit more and postpone her moving plans by 6 month, and so will you.

Yes this is her argument. My problem with this is that when I first bought the car, she told me that she would pay it off as soon as possible by making extra payments. She said she didn't want to be paying a note each month and full coverage insurance. But that hasn't happened. In fact, the first few months she didn't pay on time and it caused my account to overdraft.

 

Also, I CAN'T wait 6 months. I have to move asap, we both do. We are living with my now ex-fiance who wants us out immediately.

 

The offer you made her was pretty good tbh, if by selling the car and buying the house she can still get to work.

Also, what kinf of car did she get that she pays 300 a month for ?

Doesn't sound like a second hand car to me.

 

I think there are legal ways in which you can force her/them to give you the money back, but you will make it a big drama in the family and you will look like the big meanie.

 

I think you will need to be the bigger person here and continue living with rent.

Remember that a house ties you down, rent doesn't and the economy might force you to move.

I don't want to sell her car, I want my mom to sell her car so that she can pay me back for my sister's car and get herself something else too. I can force my sister to pay be back. Technically her car is mine and I can take it tomorrow and sell it if I wanted. But I would never do that obviously.

 

I don't want to rent because renting a house is easily 4-5 times more expensive each month than buying one. I am in school and it's very hard to work enough to pay rent and do well in school at the same time. I want to buy because 1) I have a lot of pets and 2) it will be a lot cheaper each month and I can focus on school. But the reasons I want to rent vs. buy aren't really the point.

 

My main issue is that I was more than willing to help her out when she needed it. I handed over thousands of dollars without even a second thought because I knew she needed a car and I knew our mom wasn't going to be able to get her one. But now, I am the one in need. I need to move immediately and I don't want to waste my savings paying deposits and renting some house. I want to buy a house. And my sister, who is fully capable of paying me back the money I lent her, refuses to do so only because it's going to delay her moving out of state. EVEN THOUGH I plan on letting her live with me virtually rent free after I get a house, enabling her to save the money up again very quickly.

[Radu]

I don't want to be an ass, but the obvious solution [easiest to implement] would be to get rid of the pets and rent, i can't believe that buying a house is 4-5times cheaper monthly than renting a 3 bedroom apartment, or a house ... it's just messed up.

 

If that is truly the case, than you need to talk things through with your mom, explain the situation.

If that doesn't work either, you have a choice between acting on your rights or not acting on your rights.

I'm not trying to excuse them, but to me your sister sounds quite selfish and your mom seems from your post to be worried most about her and not you [trying to put myself in her place with 2 daughters, one who is doing good and one who is doing bad].

[turnera]

I do UPDATE on her side of the story:

 

She has decided that she is not going to pay me back for the car.

What does that mean? She's planning to KEEP the car and YOU get to pay the loan?

[Mycteria]

I don't want to be an ass, but the obvious solution [easiest to implement] would be to get rid of the pets and rent, i can't believe that buying a house is 4-5times cheaper monthly than renting a 3 bedroom apartment, or a house ... it's just messed up.

I could definitely just get rid of my pets and rent, it's an option. But to me it would be a worst case scenario. To put it in perspective, apartments around here are about $500 for a one bedroom in a bad area of town. But the houses that I am looking at buying (a small place just for me) would have a mortgage of around $200. The house I live in now our mortgage is $700 a month but to rent it would be $1400 per month.

 

I don't want to throw money away renting. And if I get a small house with a tiny mortgage, I'd be able to focus on school rather than having to work so much to pay rent. I also don't really get excited about having to give away my dogs that I've had for 10 years or my other animals that couldn't live in an apartment.

 

What does that mean? She's planning to KEEP the car and YOU get to pay the loan?

No, she's planning to keep paying the loan in installments like she has been doing, so I will get my money back in 2-3 years.

[Mycteria]

If that is truly the case, than you need to talk things through with your mom, explain the situation.

If that doesn't work either, you have a choice between acting on your rights or not acting on your rights.

I'm not trying to excuse them, but to me your sister sounds quite selfish and your mom seems from your post to be worried most about her and not you [trying to put myself in her place with 2 daughters, one who is doing good and one who is doing bad].

I'm still talking things through with my mom. I'm planning on going to see her and helping her sell her car and get another one, so that she can pay me back. But I don't think this will happen in time for me to buy a house, which is why I asked my sister to go ahead and pay off the loan in the mean time.

 

That's another thing...she can pay the loan off now and then still get her money back from mom eventually and then move out of state right away. So she might not even have to save the money back up again. But she doesn't trust mom to ever pay her back so I guess she wouldn't want to risk it.

[turnera]

Well, the ugly truth is that you should never loan money to family. Now you're learning that.

 

That said, you can either now bite your tongue and make things do somehow til you can afford to buy a house, or you can go Rambo on your sister (who sounds like she NEEDS it) and stop coddling her and tell her you need the money now AS PROMISED (she was gonna pay it off early, remember? shoulda got that in writing) or else you'll have to sell the car.

[turnera]

she doesn't trust mom to ever pay her back so I guess she wouldn't want to risk it.

Apple don't fall far from the tree.

 

Obviously you were the worker bee in the family.

[Mycteria]

Well, the ugly truth is that you should never loan money to family. Now you're learning that.

 

That said, you can either now bite your tongue and make things do somehow til you can afford to buy a house, or you can go Rambo on your sister (who sounds like she NEEDS it) and stop coddling her and tell her you need the money now AS PROMISED (she was gonna pay it off early, remember? shoulda got that in writing) or else you'll have to sell the car.

 

I have definitely learned my lesson, yes! But I would never sell her car. I think what I'm going to do is show her this thread, so maybe she will understand that what I'm asking is not unreasonable.

 

And she is not a bad person, I thought we were very close. That is why I am SO shocked about this whole situation. I was completely blown away when she actually got mad about me asking. I'm going through a lot of crap right now - my relationship of three years is over, having to move out of my house, just found out that I can't go to the school I wanted to go to because my mom didn't file her taxes, among other things. And up until this point, she has been really helping me get through it all. Then I asked her if she could pay me back and she became a completely different person.

 

I would expect this out of mom, but never her. But she is saying the same thing about me - ranting and raving that she can't believe I even asked, I'm taking all her money, I did this to myself, it's not fair to her, etc etc.

 

Like I said what stings the most is that I gave her the money without even thinking twice about it because I knew how much she needed it. And she knows how much I need it now, but she's not willing to do the same. And I'm not even borrowing money from her. I'm just asking for the money back that I already lent her. I haven't regretted doing it and up until now I would have done it again in a second because she's family and I always thought she would do the same for me if she could.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Mycteria

[Radu]

I'm still talking things through with my mom. I'm planning on going to see her and helping her sell her car and get another one, so that she can pay me back. But I don't think this will happen in time for me to buy a house, which is why I asked my sister to go ahead and pay off the loan in the mean time.

 

That's another thing...she can pay the loan off now and then still get her money back from mom eventually and then move out of state right away. So she might not even have to save the money back up again. But she doesn't trust mom to ever pay her back so I guess she wouldn't want to risk it.

 

Well, if your mom is on board with paying it back, then it means that your sister is selfish.

She needed help, you helped her, and now she is resorting to technicalities to not endanger her plans when you need help.

 

If you want to be a bitch, and she is treating you like a bank, be a bitch.

If she is late just 1day on payments, add interest, and readjust the loan for inflation.

It would be funny to say it, but it won't work [personal experience with gf].

 

While in a normal rational world, showing this thread might help her see your point of view, in reality ... i think it will make her even more jaded.

 

PS: Cases with loaning money to blood relatives are as sickening as acremoneus divorces [my lawyer relatives].

[Mycteria]

 

While in a normal rational world, showing this thread might help her see your point of view, in reality ... i think it will make her even more jaded.

I just want her to see some objective outside opinions. And hopefully this thread will at least show her my side of it in more detail than I could probably get out in a face-to-face conversation.

 

PS: Cases with loaning money to blood relatives are as sickening as acremoneus divorces [my lawyer relatives].

Yeah, trust me I've learned my lesson. She got upset because of something another family member did recently and said, "family is supposed to help out family." Yeah, that's what I used to think too...

 

Just to add some more of her side of the story. I have been told by a friend that she also doesn't want to pay me back because she feels like I haven't been working hard enough to save money (picking up extra shifts) and that I have been going out too much lately. I know it sounds stupid but I am just trying to make sure I post as much of her side of the story as I can, since she's not here to do it herself.

 

I guess she thinks that if I worked harder, she wouldn't need to pay off her car. Or maybe she thinks that because I have been going out a lot, I'm not serious about moving. I have no idea.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Mycteria

[Radu]

Sounds more like rationalizing her path.

[turnera]

No offense - and this is just my supposition of your life and may be wrong, but both your sister AND your mom seem to be all too happy using you. I imagine it's a long-standing relationship in which your mother allowed you to take care of her and she expected you to do the same with your sister, and you just became 'the responsible one.'

 

That is not healthy for ANY of you. There are SO MANY places one can go in America to get help that neither of them needed to rely so heavily on YOU...but you allowed it. You took up that role and have been living it for whatever payoffs you get from it - admiration, conditional love, patting yourself on the back. It's still not healthy.

 

There's a great little book you can read in one sitting called The Dance Of Anger, and it's all about how we fall into patterns or roles in our lives - the Giver, the User, etc. It teaches Givers how to say NO to people who are all too happy to keep on Using, unless you learn to say no. And it teaches you how to say no without them pulling you back in or without them feeling like you no longer love them. Therapists always recommend it; you can get it at your library.

[firemanq]

Well, the ugly truth is that you should never loan money to family. Now you're learning that.

 

That said, you can either now bite your tongue and make things do somehow til you can afford to buy a house, or you can go Rambo on your sister (who sounds like she NEEDS it) and stop coddling her and tell her you need the money now AS PROMISED (she was gonna pay it off early, remember? shoulda got that in writing) or else you'll have to sell the car.

 

 

I am a firm believer you should loan money to your children, never more than you can afford to loose. If the child pays you back, you can loan them money again. If they do not pay you back, you are now justified in never advancing money again. I loaned 2 of the 4 kids money. Two of them paid me back, 2 did not. The 2 that did not pay me back, will get the chance when my will is read. Their share will be cut by the amount of the loan + interest. That money will then go to the 2 who paid their loans off. IfYes, I am an *******.

[princess_e]

hey! I feel very sorry for you to have a sister like that. you are put in a horrible situation from trying to help her out and she seems least grateful. I understand what you mean when you say you would do such a huge favour for her when she was in need and not even think twice about the money yet she is unwilling to sacrifice when its you who is in need. People always say family is the closest thing to you but in any case I think establishing boundaries are still very important. You cant just let someone close to you get the feeling that they can do what they want because you guys have such a great relationship... boundaries are important. obviously its a little too late for that now, but for future reference be careful!!! Im not sure if youre going to be getting the money back she doesnt seem to be considerate of your feelings and your situation at all. It was never her money to begin with and even if you suddenly change your mind about the payments she should try her best to work with that! Of course, if everyone in the world did what they were supposed to do... then there wouldnt be any problems. im sorry I wasnt much help, its a tough situation to be in, and I just wish you the best of luck and hope your relationship with her wont be completely ruined over this.

[amaysngrace]

I would explain to her that now is a good time to buy a house and with the election this year that may change.

 

See if she can maybe understand that.