I'm on the edge

[turnera]

I think he didn't have sex with the OW, or anything like that?

 

Or did I miss this part?

His first post:

It's not just some fly by night thing, we've history (I've known her for about 4 years) and plenty of night's out with flirting, cuddling then always falling short of going any further. All I know is I've not felt this way about a woman in my life EVER, apart from my Wife.

 

it's our heads that are holding us both back but the sexual frustration is now unbearable for us both. We were supposed to be having a weekend without seeing each other which didn't last at all but all we're doing is meeting, talking and agreeing with each other that this is all wrong.

 

I'm now having sleepless nights, it's affecting my work.

[nofool4u]

Aren't we all ?

 

OK where to start ? I'm going to keep it brief to start with but I'm sure that will change as the days go by. I'm a mid 40s married father of two teenage children with a long marriage. I've been away from home for 5 months and I'm on the edge of starting an affair with a single girl at work. It's not just some fly by night thing, we've history (I've known her for about 4 years) and plenty of night's out with flirting, cuddling then always falling short of going any further. All I know is I've not felt this way about a woman in my life EVER, apart from my Wife. I'm away from home, my wife has chosen not to follow and I don't think she ever will.

 

She's been hurt before, she's been divorced before and it's our heads that are holding us both back but the sexual frustration is now unbearable for us both. We were supposed to be having a weekend without seeing each other which didn't last at all but all we're doing is meeting, talking and agreeing with each other that this is all wrong.

 

I'm now having sleepless nights, it's affecting my work. I know what the obvious advice is. I'm even asking myself why am I posting here ? Do I just want permission to take the lead and go one stage further ? Is she just flattered by the attention ? Is it just because I'm lonely ?

 

That's why I'm here. Sorry it doesn't give much to go on but I hope it's a start. Fire away with the questions, abuse etc. Forgive me if I don't I always respond quickly but I WILL respond.

 

All of this and absolutely no mention of how poorly you are treating your wife.

 

So the advise is, if she is that insignificant to you, set your wife free.

[utterer of lies]

His first post:

 

Yeah, no sex.

[turnera]

Yeah, no sex.

Oh, I get it. As long as you don't screw, you're not cheating, right?

 

I did not have sex with that woman!

 

Yeah, right.

[onthefence210]

Ok time for another update. When I used spinning as a name that was in the sense of where my head is. I'm going to get flamed for the following comment but OW didn't beg me to come, neither do I think she is leading me on and she is defintely not a money grabber, see earlier comments. If anything she is the one that is now raising all the red flags and a long message this morning about why this has to stop for her sake. I'm not focussed at work and the atmos is unbearable and I'm paranoid that others can see it

 

So here's flamed number 2. Call me dangerous but I have to do this. We are meeting tonight at a neutral and public venue. I am going to agree with her that we have to cool it and work out the practilaties of how we deal with the situation at work. I'm also going to ask her straight. If I go back and issue an ultimatum to W - come with me or bust do we have a future or is it still no. Is that irrational ? I can be bloody minded when I set out to be

 

Ok I'm a FWS and Im even pissed at this the mention how ur OW is throwing red flags for her own sake. I don't think you get it, she is not even thinking of you (we kno she's not thinking about ur family) but her own self. She has been down this road before, she knows how to handle MM as she sees fit for her own benefit. Why is she such a high priority on ur list when it's quite obvious that you are just another woman's wife she has gotten?

 

Issue an ultimatum to ur wife...you have balls man. How bout u dump OW, go home, tell ur wife the truth and then ask for forgiveness and then let her give u the ultimatum?

[Spinning]

Ok here's a point that hit home hard last night. If I'd focussed on the P rather than the E we'd have almost certainly slept together. For me E came first. OW is the one that's been there and written the book and doesn't want another chapter. I've woken up to that reality. If we'd just stayed as good friends, probably closer than we should have been this would have unfolded differently. That kind of helps me to start analysing things.

 

I'm certainly not strong enough to tell W of A (yet) but i do know we need to ask serious questions about our marriage when I return.

[Furious]

Ok here's a point that hit home hard last night. If I'd focussed on the P rather than the E we'd have almost certainly slept together. For me E came first. OW is the one that's been there and written the book and doesn't want another chapter. I've woken up to that reality. If we'd just stayed as good friends, probably closer than we should have been this would have unfolded differently. That kind of helps me to start analysing things.

 

I'm certainly not strong enough to tell W of A (yet) but i do know we need to ask serious questions about our marriage when I return.

 

 

In other words, it's not that you're strong enough to tell your wife about your affair, it's because you are a coward who refuses to give her the truth.

 

So when you get back home you want the both of you to ask serious questions about your marriage, but this serious talk will not include the fact that your are cheating on her.

 

How can you expect your wife to make honest decisions about her life based on your lies.

 

 

 

This is what is referred to as gas lighting.

[frozensprouts]

But you thought when you started having marital difficulties, and were told by others that she was probably having an affair, (which turned out to be correct) that you thought that was nonsense too.

 

It's not nonsense. People behave in recognizable patterns. Women who love their husbands don't simply let them go overseas without a fight. Women who don't put up a fight want the freedom of the separation to see other men. It's just that simple. It's hard enough in the military when the separations are involuntary but there is still tons of cheating. In this case the wife more or less voluntarily declined to be with her husband.

 

It's clear that some people need everything spelled out for them or else they are clueless to these issues. You may be one who needs it spelled out.

 

 

 

 

 

The wife clearly had no interest in supporting her husband by being with him in HK nor did she put up much if any objection to him going there. She is a human being, she needs sex and affection just as much as he does. He is alone and lonely with a wife who doesn't care about him. Don't make OP out to be the devil because he's not. He's got an unappreciative wife who constructively abandoned him yet is happy enought to cash the checks he is sending. Put two and two together--she fits the profile of the walkaway/cheating wife. Just like your wife, just like Dig's, just like ninja's, just like 96nole's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's precisely your problem. You have an absolute refusal to admit that your initial judgment about your wife was completely mistaken. Therefore your decision to stay was based on false pretenses and could not have any hope for ultimate success. You SHOULD have qualms. You were WRONG. Yet you come on here in these threads and insist that you have the answers, and your answer is always about the betrayed spouse's obligation to reconcile. Virtually at any cost. It didn't work for you, because it's the wrong way to look at it. It won't work for anyone else.

 

You failed. Yet you don't want to admit that your decision-making process was severly flawed. Sorry but you don't get any brownie points for making a bad decision that resulted in a failure just because YOU want to tell yourself that you had good intentions.

 

If you can't bring yourself to ever admit that you made a mistake, that you are human, humans make mistakes, you misjudged your wife's basic character, and that it's impossible to reconcile with someone who has such a serious character flaw--then you will cripple your ability to have successful relationships in the future and you will be unable to effectively help anyone else going through what you went through.

 

I'm not saying all cheaters are impossible to reconcile with. But long term cheaters--remorseless cheaters--with heavy sexual and emotional ongoing affairs over months and years--who deceive their spouses all along the way--showing little remorse, and suffering no real consequences--the vast majority of such people have such serious character flaws that are so ingrained by their bad behavior over the months and years, that it is impossible for reconciliation to occur. In the vast majority of cases. Your wife wasn't an exception because she was never remorseful, and that was quite obvious to everyone. Except you. She never even left her job working with the OM, right?

 

 

 

 

But you still don't get that reconciliation cannot be a "unilateral" decision. BOTH OF YOU have to make it. Your wife NEVER made that decision. You are patting yourself on the back for making a decision that was pointless since it did not reflect reality. You engaged in self-deception and paid dearly for it, and are still paying for it. There is no reason at all for you to take pride in your self-delusion. The worst part about it is as far as I can tell, in many of the threads you post in, you are encouraging other BS's to engage in the same self-delusion that didn't work for you.

 

And you don't need a crystal ball to see that she is lying. You claimed all the while, just like Dig is doing, that you believed her and you trusted her. Your error, you have to man up and admit that you were wrong rather than whining that you didn't have a crystal ball.

 

 

 

 

 

Since you never approached R correctly from the very beginning, you're completely missing the fact that you may have missed out on your cherised opportunity to have a REAL R. That's part of the price you paid, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure she can, quite happily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're doing it again. You're assuming that one of the parties has some unilateral ability to renew the commitment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OP's wife doesn't care if he cheats. If she didn't want him to cheat, she would have followed him to HK or insisted he stay home.

 

 

the Op has not provided enough information for you to know why she didn't go, or even if she was okay with him going, or if she knew just how long he would be going for.

 

as for not going because she doesn't care...

 

i've been where she is and have had to stay behind even though i didn't want to, sometimes for months at a time. It almost happened again...my husband almost had to go ahead without me and our kids again and it would have been for a few years. I wouldn't have minded going, but uprooting our kids, taking them away from everything they know and need would have been terrible for them.

 

Sometimes it's not an easy choice...maybe his wife has areally good job here she is- why she should be asked to give that up and not he be asked to give up his job for her? Maybe she did ask him to stay and he said no...maybe he told her it was okay that she stay behind as it wouldn't be for very long...

due to the nature of an internet forum, e are only getting his side here..what about hers/ I expect if you asked his wife, you'd hear a very different story for the one he's telling...not saying he's not being truthful, it's just a different perspective

[turnera]

I'm certainly not strong enough to tell W of A (yet) but i do know we need to ask serious questions about our marriage when I return.

How can she answer questions if she doesn't know what she's talking about (as she has been withheld the truth).

[turnera]

due to the nature of an internet forum, e are only getting his side here..

And a whitewashed one, at that - as that is human nature.

[stillwater]

If you're going to explore fixing your marriage, I'd strongly encourage you to do it before you turn your EA into a PA. Speaking as an xOM, MW spent the first few months building me up to believe that she was going to leave her M. Then she decided that maybe she should see if it was fixable first. So rather than doing that up-front and keeping everyone (relatively) happy, what she did destroyed me and threw a bomb into her marriage. If you care about either your OW or your W or even just yourself, figure your stuff out before making a move that has the potential to hurt everyone involved.

[Spinning]

And a whitewashed one, at that - as that is human nature.

 

That I can't deny but I am actually thankful for the support, the flaming, the anger and the suggestions. Had I not joined this board I wouldn't be at the stage I'm currently at, still to some extent in denial, but trying to put an end to it all and turn things around. I'm in a much better place than I was yesterday. Today's been better than I thought it would be but it's going to take some time for me to work through next steps.

 

Love from the human **** bag

[Athena]

So what actually happened when you met up last night with your OW?

[Athena]

PS: You can't have a truthful, open, useful, and honest talk about your marriage with your wife if you are both not going to tackle the 500 lb gorilla in the room -- the affair (both past and future potential) with YOU ignoring the gorilla in the room, and your wife NOT seeing it!

 

WTF -- are you serious? Don't go about this half-arsed, just TELL her! You'll feel relieved once you get it off your chest.

 

Unless you are planning on getting the prize -- OW -- and can't see your way to doing this without repercussions, unless you pretend she doesn't exist, and that you've BEEN DOING NOTHING WRONG IN YOUR MARRIAGE FOR THE PAST TWO PLUS YEARS!

 

Yet you think you can still 'discuss' the topic without actually doing so.

 

Gaslighting, gaslighting, gaslighting -- the soul destroyer. Things will not add up to your wife, they will not make sense, she will begin to go back and forth in her mind with things you've done and said and she will suspect things are not as you say, you will be fvking with her Sense of Reality -- and that is criminal in my mind.

 

Just speak truthfully! It's NOT doing so up to this point that got you here!

[Spinning]

So what actually happened when you met up last night with your OW?

 

So what actually happened when you met up last night with your OW?

 

Just to let you know I've also read your later post. It's one thing telling me what I should do. It's another what I'll actually do though trust me I have trawled enough threads on here to see plenty of comments from WS, BS and even OW,OM. As of tonight I don't have that courage. Gutless maybe but the rules ask for me feelings and I'm trying to be as truthful as possible. Who knows how much that will change between now and then.

 

Last night we met as arranged and as I'd already worked through a few key points I wanted to get out I was determined to do most of the initial talking but the reality was she was looking for the exit door just as much, probably more, than me. For her part she's not prepared to enter into another MM arrangement as she's been divorced and been the OW in a relationship after that and doesn't want to go through the pain again for a third time. For my part I admitted that I had woken up to the reality I was in an A, and was very keen in turning it from an EA into a PA. We both admittted how VERY close this was to becoming a reality two to three times in the last week. The fact that I pushed on stronger over the last few days wanting more out of this was the point where OW turned around and knew it was getting too heavy. I asked outright whether if I hadn't been M how much of a difference that would have made and it seems it would.

 

We agreed it needs to be called to a halt although I admitted to her just how tough I was going to find that. In fact the one mistake I made (in my opinion maybe the readers may think there are plenty more !!!) was right at the very end I asked her to look me in the eyes and after 2 hours of telling me from the head, tell me from the heart do you want to finish this now. Not good maybe I should have asked that first.

 

In that time I got a heck of a lot off my chest. Talked about my history, my marriage, my life, my kids and how one way or another I need to sort my life out and it has to start here. Said, as I've stated here, that when I get back to Europe I need to sort out my marriage one way or another. I also pushed and got a bit more background on her life. I did NOT ask whether if I went back and things went pear-shaped with the wife whether that would put us on a different footing

 

We talked about the russian roulette we're also playing at work and how it shouldn't be too hard to act professionally at work given our respective jobs.

 

I know I've missed a heck of a lot out but I'm hoping that's enough key points so that you get the feeling that as far as I'm concerned A is over and I viewed last night as an opportunity to get every last bit of crap out of my system, so in that respect yes I guess the E in EA was still in play.

 

I'm under no illusions as to how hard this is going to be. I'm under no illusions about how hard it will be if let's go for a drink comes up but as they say elsewhere, one day at a time. I've succesfully recovered from an addiction using those teachings (not alcohol btw) and I'm especially mindful given my other addiction (the urge never truly goes away) how I could unwind 25 years hard work in a second and use this EA as the excuse to bring hell back into my life again.

 

I'm under no illusions about how much of a coward I'm going to be about laying ALL the cards on the table back in Europe. I respect the rights of the BS on here to vent their spleen and I'm happy for your comments but I wouldn't mind seeing a few more WS thoughts on the situation as well. Did you come clean or are there still some facts that you've never brought out.

 

I've still got to go back and review some other open questions on here I know. I believe I owe a bit more clarity on why I am in HK and W isn't for starters. I will do that but I'm actually quite tired and can honestly see the prospect of me getting first semi decent night's sleep since last Wednesday so I'm off to bed to take advantage of that.

[turnera]

Good for you, spinning. You did the right thing.

 

Understandably afraid to tell the wife. I'm hoping that you will put all the energy you've been giving OW into your marriage and IMPROVE it, to get you to the point where you two are each other's everything and it becomes safe to you to tell her. Work on the marriage first. Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? Start there.

[Negative Nancy]

I'm a mid 40s married father of two teenage children with a long marriage. I've been away from home for 5 months and I'm on the edge of starting an affair with a single girl at work.

 

This just proves that no man can be trusted or is able to be loyal.

[Radagast]

I am a former unfaithful spouse.

 

I was pleased to read you had an honest conversation with your almost-lover. If you cannot be fully honest with the person you are having an affair with, then who can you really be honest with?

 

On the question of honesty to your wife, I would say it would depend on the kind of relationship you have with her and what realistic prospects you see for a future with her. If you are hoping to reconcile with her fully, then I would recommend that you tell her just how close you came to a full-blown affair, and that you'd pulled back at the last moment recognising that you had already crossed an inappropriate boundary, and that this is a risk you face of being alone for such a long period of time. I would not blame her for this - unless she had promised to accompany you and had broken her promise by not following as she'd promised to. If you had both agreed that she not come, then you both bear responsibility for that, rather than she alone.

 

If you decide to leave her and end the marriage, whether immediately or through a natural wind-down by her staying in Europe and you remaining in Hong Kong, I simply tell her that the time apart has caused you to reflect on the state of your marriage and that you wish to end it. If she pushes for further details and specifically asks about "someone else" then I would not lie, but I would not throw that at her up front if it is not necessary.

 

In my own case, I was completely honest about my affair. I had decided to leave my ex-wife and informed her of my plan to do that. Had she accepted that I would have left it at that, but she refused to believe I was going to carry out my "threat", so I told her I had met someone else, was in love with her, planned to marry her and that we had been lovers for a while. It was very difficult, I did not know what she might do, and I slept with my bedroom door locked until I left. But I was very glad I had told her about the affair. I had found it very difficult not telling her, although we lived largely separate lives and as a matter of course did not share details about what we'd been up to. It allowed me to bring that piece of my life into line with other pieces, as the affair was not a secret to anyone else. I am not someone who likes secrets or can hide things in that way. When you return to Europe you may find that the difficulty of telling is equally matched or even outweighed by the difficulty of not telling.

 

What I would recommend though is insisting that you be heard. There is a sense that on hearing about infidelity whether physical or emotional that it then becomes all about the "betrayed" spouse and that the unfaithful spouse no longer has any "right" to any airtime, their role is then simply to support and contain their "wronged" spouse. My own views will no doubt be unpopular here but I would argue that unless the unfaithful spouse is able to express and explore fully without the conversation being emotionally hijacked by their spouse the reasons for their infidelity, there is little chance of the issues being fully resolved. The unfaithful spouse will simply be silenced and their issues driven underground as the focus shifts to the "betrayed". This is not about assigning blame it is about reaching an understanding of what happened and why, so as to resolve the issues whether personal or marital to prevent a recurrence.

 

I hope you are able to resolve this one way or another to a constructive end.

[frozensprouts]

I am a former unfaithful spouse.

 

I was pleased to read you had an honest conversation with your almost-lover. If you cannot be fully honest with the person you are having an affair with, then who can you really be honest with?

 

perhaps it would be best if he were honest with everyone involved...

 

On the question of honesty to your wife, I would say it would depend on the kind of relationship you have with her and what realistic prospects you see for a future with her. If you are hoping to reconcile with her fully, then I would recommend that you tell her just how close you came to a full-blown affair, and that you'd pulled back at the last moment recognising that you had already crossed an inappropriate boundary, and that this is a risk you face of being alone for such a long period of time.

 

this really has nothing to do with being alone...it has much more to do with the OP's poor sense of boundaries, etc. ...Radagast- you say you love your wife? if you had to be away from her for a few months, would you cheat on her just because you were "alone"?

 

I would not blame her for this - unless she had promised to accompany you and had broken her promise by not following as she'd promised to. If you had both agreed that she not come, then you both bear responsibility for that, rather than she alone.

 

If you decide to leave her and end the marriage, whether immediately or through a natural wind-down by her staying in Europe and you remaining in Hong Kong, I simply tell her that the time apart has caused you to reflect on the state of your marriage and that you wish to end it. If she pushes for further details and specifically asks about "someone else" then I would not lie, but I would not throw that at her up front if it is not necessary.

I think this advice is given from the perspective of someone who hasn't been in the position of this guy's wife...not telling her only means that she may well spend the rest of her days blaming herself for the fact that her marriage failed. Honesty in a marriage is really important, even if it's failing.

 

In my own case, I was completely honest about my affair. I had decided to leave my ex-wife and informed her of my plan to do that. Had she accepted that I would have left it at that, but she refused to believe I was going to carry out my "threat", so I told her I had met someone else, was in love with her, planned to marry her and that we had been lovers for a while. It was very difficult, I did not know what she might do, and I slept with my bedroom door locked until I left. But I was very glad I had told her about the affair. I had found it very difficult not telling her, although we lived largely separate lives and as a matter of course did not share details about what we'd been up to. It allowed me to bring that piece of my life into line with other pieces, as the affair was not a secret to anyone else. I am not someone who likes secrets or can hide things in that way. When you return to Europe you may find that the difficulty of telling is equally matched or even outweighed by the difficulty of not telling.

 

What I would recommend though is insisting that you be heard. There is a sense that on hearing about infidelity whether physical or emotional that it then becomes all about the "betrayed" spouse and that the unfaithful spouse no longer has any "right" to any airtime, their role is then simply to support and contain their "wronged" spouse. My own views will no doubt be unpopular here but I would argue that unless the unfaithful spouse is able to express and explore fully without the conversation being emotionally hijacked by their spouse the reasons for their infidelity, there is little chance of the issues being fully resolved. The unfaithful spouse will simply be silenced and their issues driven underground as the focus shifts to the "betrayed". This is not about assigning blame it is about reaching an understanding of what happened and why, so as to resolve the issues whether personal or marital to prevent a recurrence.

 

believe it or not, I actually agree with this, to a point. The problem is that, at first, it may well come off like you are blaming your wife for your choices, or that you are excusing or minimizing you behavior. At first it's probably far better to allow your wife to ahve her grief without attempting to assign any "blame" for it. After the initial shock of finding out then it will be the time to discuss the why's and wherefores...this is where having a skilled counselor can pay a huge part. Sometimes having a third party involved in the discussion can make a huge difference

 

I hope you are able to resolve this one way or another to a constructive end.

please find responses in bold

[frozensprouts]

This just proves that no man can be trusted or is able to be loyal.

 

i don't know...it seems like the OP really does want to be honest...it's hard, but I think he can do it once he realizes it's best for everyone involved

[nofool4u]

I'm certainly not strong enough to tell W of A (yet) but i do know we need to ask serious questions about our marriage when I return.

 

Fair enough, as long as you don't try to excuse your cheating and try to gaslight your W into thinking your choice is her fault.

[BetrayedH]

This just proves that no man can be trusted or is able to be loyal.

 

I think it just proves that the OP cannot be trusted. Not sure where you make the leap to "no man" can...

[nofool4u]

This just proves that no man can be trusted or is able to be loyal.

 

It proves no such thing.

 

You just haven't found a faithful man, and with your attitude its not hard to see why they elude you.

[nofool4u]

I have that same attitude now. Although, I'm not too far off from Dday, so that may change.

 

I don't put anything past anyone anymore (any any point in their lives) . . . even the presently faithful betrayed husbands who come to this board.

 

I hold you to a higher standard Alice, so try not to let the attitude of NN wear off on you. Or you will ensure you are going to be lonely.

[Spinning]

I am a former unfaithful spouse.

 

I was pleased to read you had an honest conversation with your almost-lover. If you cannot be fully honest with the person you are having an affair with, then who can you really be honest with?

 

On the question of honesty to your wife, I would say it would depend on the kind of relationship you have with her and what realistic prospects you see for a future with her. If you are hoping to reconcile with her fully, then I would recommend that you tell her just how close you came to a full-blown affair, and that you'd pulled back at the last moment recognising that you had already crossed an inappropriate boundary, and that this is a risk you face of being alone for such a long period of time. I would not blame her for this - unless she had promised to accompany you and had broken her promise by not following as she'd promised to. If you had both agreed that she not come, then you both bear responsibility for that, rather than she alone.

 

If you decide to leave her and end the marriage, whether immediately or through a natural wind-down by her staying in Europe and you remaining in Hong Kong, I simply tell her that the time apart has caused you to reflect on the state of your marriage and that you wish to end it. If she pushes for further details and specifically asks about "someone else" then I would not lie, but I would not throw that at her up front if it is not necessary.

 

In my own case, I was completely honest about my affair. I had decided to leave my ex-wife and informed her of my plan to do that. Had she accepted that I would have left it at that, but she refused to believe I was going to carry out my "threat", so I told her I had met someone else, was in love with her, planned to marry her and that we had been lovers for a while. It was very difficult, I did not know what she might do, and I slept with my bedroom door locked until I left. But I was very glad I had told her about the affair. I had found it very difficult not telling her, although we lived largely separate lives and as a matter of course did not share details about what we'd been up to. It allowed me to bring that piece of my life into line with other pieces, as the affair was not a secret to anyone else. I am not someone who likes secrets or can hide things in that way. When you return to Europe you may find that the difficulty of telling is equally matched or even outweighed by the difficulty of not telling.

 

What I would recommend though is insisting that you be heard. There is a sense that on hearing about infidelity whether physical or emotional that it then becomes all about the "betrayed" spouse and that the unfaithful spouse no longer has any "right" to any airtime, their role is then simply to support and contain their "wronged" spouse. My own views will no doubt be unpopular here but I would argue that unless the unfaithful spouse is able to express and explore fully without the conversation being emotionally hijacked by their spouse the reasons for their infidelity, there is little chance of the issues being fully resolved. The unfaithful spouse will simply be silenced and their issues driven underground as the focus shifts to the "betrayed". This is not about assigning blame it is about reaching an understanding of what happened and why, so as to resolve the issues whether personal or marital to prevent a recurrence.

 

I hope you are able to resolve this one way or another to a constructive end.

 

Thanks. I'm liking this a lot.