Is a wife obligated to have sex regularly?

[Robert Z]

Kung Fu is one of those guys who wants to "go along to get along."

 

Yeah, well, that's what got me where I am today.

 

One of my favorites just emailed asking if I'd like to have a threesome next time. I guess I will just have to go along to get along. So nothing has really changed. ... with the minor exception that I LOVE MY LIFE NOW!!!

[Els]

Yeah, well, that's what got me where I am today.

 

One of my favorites just emailed asking if I'd like to have a threesome next time. I guess I will just have to go along to get along. So nothing has really changed. ... with the minor exception that I LOVE MY LIFE NOW!!!

 

See, this is why I don't understand your crusade of bitterness here.

 

If you're genuinely happy with your life, what's the problem? It isn't as if anyone is complaining that you're visiting prostitutes instead of taking a wife. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. Why the need to talk about what wives should or shouldn't do?

[frozensprouts]

DuckSoup,

 

 

I wasn't saying that it was all a man's fault for hoe a woman feels...but I will say that attitudes like yours don't help. Insulting people ( fatty?) isn't going to do anything to help them change.

 

It seems like you really want to try and make men and woman polar opposites when really they are not.

 

I won't argue that there are women out there who use withholding sex as a way to exert power, and this is a form of emotional abuse. But there are just as many men who are emotionally abusive in a different way...it would seem that someone who has it in them to be emotionally abusive will find a way to do it, be they male or female. This seems to have more to do with their personality than their gender.

[Radu]

See, this is why I don't understand your crusade of bitterness here.

 

If you're genuinely happy with your life, what's the problem? It isn't as if anyone is complaining that you're visiting prostitutes instead of taking a wife. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. Why the need to talk about what wives should or shouldn't do?

 

Because if he were offered to have his life back from 'before' and that problem to never appear, he would probably take the deal.

[BetheButterfly]

You are the one who fails to see the big picture. Hormones ruin marriages. And there is often little or nothing the man can do about it. Even worse, even with the best medical care, hormone imbalances and other female problems can extend from the 20s, or 30s, and generally from about age 40, on through the rest of your life with little to no resolution. And there will be NOTHING that you can do about it. Until you understand this you haven't even begun.

 

I don't think hormones ruin marriages. I think decisions that negatively impact the couple ruin marriages.

 

It would be difficult if one of the two decides not to have sex anymore. That would make marriage where sex is important to the other very hard, and in that case, I do think divorce is an option. Marriage = promises/commitment that for most, includes sex.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that the two who promise are "obligated", but rather that they did indeed willingly decide to commit to each other. I think it's good for people thinking about getting married to be specific in the vows they make to the other, including in the area of sex.

 

About a lady losing her interest, I hope when I am older, that I don't have this problem. I love sex with my husband and give/get willingly!!! Hopefully science and technology will be able to improve the duration of a woman's sex life... I haven't really looked into that but would like to! I do strive (though I admit I need to do better) in eating healthy and working out, which does help maintain a healthy body. So, your thread does show me I need to make more of an effort to strive to continue to keep my sexual libido for when I am older, because I DO NOT EVER WANT TO LOSE INTEREST IN SEX WITH MY HUBBY!!!

[sally4sara]

Kung Fu is one of those guys who wants to "go along to get along."

 

Right....because being a right abrasive jerk of any gender is what gets the love juices running.

HE is happy about his life and his relationship - his wife and he have a happy sex life.

You and the OP are angry and I'm not sure why. You believe what you believe and the attitude you exhibit is supposedly how you feel you should behave. If there is merit to that then y'all ought be rolling in pussy (without having to pay for it either ) and happy to the pinks of your ears.

Sorry but "happy" is not the word I'd use to describe you or the OP. Maybe you should be taking notes from Kung Fu?

[SoMovinOn]

No, the problem is precisely women who believe they can use denial of sex as a power tool in relationships, sacrificing their husband and their marriages to their thirst for that power.

 

It's not *the* problem, it's *a* problem. It doesn't describe every sexless marriage. I suspect most sexless marriages have much more to do with the man than they do any type of power play by the woman.

 

Of course, a power play by either spouse, indicates the real core problem of this whole topic - there are serious problems in the M which have nothing to do with sex.

 

The OP had nothing to do with power plays though, it was based on a made up science indicating all women "dry up" and lose their desire for sex.

[SoMovinOn]

One of my favorites just emailed asking if I'd like to have a threesome next time.

 

Why do you suppose she wants another guy there? I think you should go for it!!!

[KungFuJoe]

DuckSoup,

 

You need to grow up or get help (probably both). Your views on women and especially this subject is very disturbing...especially if you say you've never actually experienced a sexless relationship. THEN WHY ARE YOU HERE? Just because you enjoy bashing women? I'm pretty sure you HAVE gone through this before but are in full on denial mode.

 

RobertZ,

 

I'm happy that you are enjoying your life. You SHOULD...you only get one chance at it and then you die. There are no do-overs. That being said, I do think you aren't as happy as you want to be, otherwise you would not be so passionately discussing this topic. I'm not going to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is that there IS such a thing as a happy, fulfilling, forever lasting marriage where both partners are equally giving, equally sharing, and no one has to sacrifice their self respect or dignity to make it work. Oh...and lots of mind blowing sex to go along with it.

[Got it]

Umm, what about the women who aren't fullfilled in their relationships? I divorced my ex, a large part because of how bad our sex life was. Should I have known better? Sure, like many men here say he was my first and only, I thought it would get better, yada yada yada.

 

He just wasn't that interested and when he was a minute would have been a marathon. It was what it was, the rest of the good outweighed the bad until it didn't.

 

I don't understand the consternation on this. If you don't like it, if it is a big priority for you then divorce. Move on. Why spend so much time and energy ranting about it. If you significant other does not want to have sex who cares why? It is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. That is an exercise in futility. Chalk it up to the every changing events in life and move on.

[Jazzephaye]

Read 1 Corinthians 7:5 - point blank...the scriptures tells us to not be depriving each of of it (sex) except by mutual consent only for an appointed time so that we don't find ourselves tempted to do wrong. Apparently, God knows how important regular intercourse is in a MARRIAGE. A Husband or Wife shouldn't have to ask for it....

[carhill]

This is similar to women venting to their girlfriends (and me, since that's how I know) about their husband's various annoying, insensitive, disrespectful and hurtful proclivities.

 

Why don't they divorce and move on? Balance. The combination of real and perceived priorities tips in favor of staying.

 

I'll go back to JamesM's epic thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/201696-if-you-want-sex-then-you-will-have-get-somewhere-else

 

For him, and many men like him, regardless of how they feel, the balance tips in favor of staying, and that doesn't preclude the desire to, or right to, vent. In the case of the OP, he chose divorce (IIRC) and brings up the subject retrospectively. For other men, they deal with it differently. They have their reasons, just as women do for staying in marriages that aren't 'ideal'. No doubt some of that has to do with 'obligation', regardless of where that sense of obligation comes from.

[Robert Z]

RobertZ,

 

I'm happy that you are enjoying your life. You SHOULD...you only get one chance at it and then you die. There are no do-overs. That being said, I do think you aren't as happy as you want to be, otherwise you would not be so passionately discussing this topic.

 

Happy as I want to be? Would you be happy after wasting 25 years, which is about your age I'm guessing. No, I'm not happy about wasting so many years and I have a lot to say about it. Young people like you should listen instead of arguing about things beyond your years.

 

I'm not going to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is that there IS such a thing as a happy, fulfilling, forever lasting marriage where both partners are equally giving, equally sharing, and no one has to sacrifice their self respect or dignity to make it work. Oh...and lots of mind blowing sex to go along with it.

 

I'm not railing against marriage. I'm arguing about women who deny their men out of selfishness. Now I realize that you wish life to be like a fairy tale. You are young an naive. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

How old are you, early twenties. Give me a break!!! I've through a hell that you probably can't even imagine yet. And that happened because I was once as naive as you.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Robert Z

[2sunny]

You need to work through your bitterness and resentment for women.

 

You're still handing your woman all your power by hanging on to that anger.

 

Seek counseling to get past all that negativity.

[Robert Z]

You need to work through your bitterness and resentment for women.

 

You're still handing your woman all your power by hanging on to that anger.

 

Seek counseling to get past all that negativity.

 

Bitter, yes, because I fell for it for so long, but my point here is more about the paradigm that men can just go masturbate as a replacement for intimacy. It is like any social cause. It comes with emotions. So don't try to discredit my position by playing amateur psychiatrist. That is just crackpot.

[2sunny]

Bitter, yes, because I fell for it for so long, but my point here is more about the paradigm that men can just go masturbate as a replacement for intimacy. It is like any social cause. It comes with emotions. So don't try to discredit my position by playing amateur psychiatrist. That is just crackpot.

 

Women can masturbate too!

 

So - what's your point?

 

Holding on to that negativity is only bound to attract negative women.

[Robert Z]

Women can masturbate too!

 

So - what's your point?

 

Holding on to that negativity is only bound to attract negative women.

 

What's my point? Have you even bothered to read the thread?

 

I'm not interested in attracting women. I hire them. As much as I still feel anger over the last 25 years, I am living a fantasy life now and loving it. There is a lot to be said for reckless abandon, as it turns out. I never dreamed that I would ever be having such great sex with such young and incredibly beautiful women. I should have done this years ago.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

Here is my argument in one sentence: Men's needs have generally been triviliazed by women, but those same women fully expect their needs to be met.

 

Now this doesn't apply to women with a healthy sex drive and or who at least try to have a good sex life. This about all of those women who lose their drive and then expect their husbands to go jack off for the rest of their lives.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Robert Z

[Els]

This is similar to women venting to their girlfriends (and me, since that's how I know) about their husband's various annoying, insensitive, disrespectful and hurtful proclivities.

 

Why don't they divorce and move on? Balance. The combination of real and perceived priorities tips in favor of staying.

 

I'll go back to JamesM's epic thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/201696-if-you-want-sex-then-you-will-have-get-somewhere-else

 

For him, and many men like him, regardless of how they feel, the balance tips in favor of staying, and that doesn't preclude the desire to, or right to, vent. In the case of the OP, he chose divorce (IIRC) and brings up the subject retrospectively. For other men, they deal with it differently. They have their reasons, just as women do for staying in marriages that aren't 'ideal'. No doubt some of that has to do with 'obligation', regardless of where that sense of obligation comes from.

 

I agree, but there is a huge difference between venting about your experience and making gross generalizations about how 'all women above 50 are' or 'what women are obligated to be'. There is also a huge difference between venting to your close friends and venting to a public audience of strangers. In conversations with close friends, I have said jokingly, for example, "Geez, men are boneheads"... But I would not say that in front of a public audience and expect everyone to be okay with it. It is my right to say it, yes - but it is also their right to respond how they see fit to it.

[Ducky23]

"Many" men are like Robert and your ex in this regard, because MOST healthy men enjoy and need sexual release. MOST healthy men marry with the expectation that their wives share in the enjoyment of healthy, active sex life. Surely if the wives did not think an active sex life was part and parcel of the marriage, they had an OBLIGATION to admit that to their fiancees before, not after, marriage. (Bait and switch.)

 

 

 

 

 

In a relationship which is established with the mutual expectation that sex will be a significant part of it--virtually every marriage between physically and psychologically healthy adults includes this expectation--it absolutely is an obligation.

 

Why is it that so many women think vacuuming the living room rug is an obligation which may not be ignored, yet having sex with their spouse is an obligation so it must be ignored?

 

 

 

 

 

Women are equal to men nowadays. (Just reminding you of that.)

 

If a women develops a physical infirmity or condition which inhibits her sex drive, it is HER obligation--not her husband's--to seek out appropriate medical or psychological treatment, if available.

 

This entire line of anti-Robert Z argument sounds akin to the similar argument that is offered by obese people that their spouse should "accept them the way they are" and "love them for who they are" ignoring their obesity.

 

I'm a sexless wife? "Why don't you love me for who I am, you sex fiend!!!"

 

I'm 50 pounds overweight? "Why don't you love me for who I am, you sex fiend!"

 

The common theme in both discussion topics is the absolute refusal of the person who objectively has "the problem"--in one case, low libido; in the other, obesity--to take responsibility for themselves. They just don't like having adult obligations--either to maintain a healthy weight, for themselves, not their spouse; nor a healthy libido, for themselves, not their spouse.

 

This irresponsible "me me me" attitude is prevalent nowadays and can be extended to any area where someone has a personality failing and refuses to take responsibility for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Go the doctor and get treatment.

 

 

 

 

Correct. Numerous men with ED don't just say "wulp that's it, sex is over, I'll be celibate the rest of my life." They get viagra/cialis.

 

 

 

 

"With their husbands." Does this mean they're having sex with affair partners? do they even masturbate? Or did you mean to say "not had sex with anyone, including themselves"? Please clarify. If they are masturbating or having affairs then they do have a sex drive and they are deliberately withholding sex from their husbands.

 

What kind of women do you hang out with that don't have any sexual release of any kind for five/ten years and are anything remotely approaching psychologically "normal"? They're not. They ARE having sex, either solo or with affair partners, and lying to you; or they are psychologically or physically abnormal.

 

This is exactly what Robert Z is talking about. This acceptance of the severely abnormal-- a no sex life--as normal.

 

 

 

 

Then you have severe psychological hang ups and need therapy. To say that sex itself is per se disgusting indicates possibly severe maladjustment on your part. Your inherent attitude towards sex is certainly not the fault of your male partner.

 

 

 

 

 

You consider your genitals "gross parts"? Please--see a psychologist, and soon.

 

 

 

 

No one "forced" you to have sex by reminding you of your obligation in a relationship. No one "raped" you or came even close.

 

You had complete freedom to walk right out the door if you (wrongfully or rightfully) believed sex with your partner was "disgusting." You stayed. You stayed for the financial support. You stayed for the emotional support. You stayed for all kinds of personal reasons. But stay, you did.

 

Your attitude towards sex is frighteningly abnormal and unhealthy, and I think Robert's point is that many many women are just like you, and feel justified in having a completely unhealthy attitude towards sex.

 

You think sex is gross? Disgusting? Fine. Try for once in your life to be HONEST with your next prospective partner AND TELL HIM THAT. "I THINK SEX IS GROSS AND DISGUSTING AND IF YOU ASK ME TO HAVE IT WITH YOU I WILL FEEL LIKE I AM BEING RAPED." Of course being honest like that won't get you too many free meals, gifts, and ego-stroking of being pursued by men, will it? You obviously know your attitude is completely abnormal and that if you were actually honest and told a prospective partner about it he would not want to waste any more time with you. So you lie. You deceive. And then when your psychological demons rise to the surface, you blame the clueless man that you deceived for "raping" you. r

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure the partner who you believe did this to you wasn't honestly advised at the very beginning of your relationship that you find sex gross and disgusting and don't feel like it is a normal part of your relationships to have it very often, if ever.

 

The problem isn't your partner, it's your hang ups and lack of honesty about them when you get into relationships.

 

It is you, not your partner, who is "abusive."

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. Honesty is the most constructive way. You should tell prospective partners up front that you are not very keen on sex--in fact you think it is disgusting, and will regard them with contempt and hatred if they express an expectation that you should have it and enjoy it with them frequently.

 

 

 

 

It is not Robert Z's "obligation" to make his partner enjoy sex. For the same reason that it is not your partners' obligation to dispel your pre-existing hang ups and disgust with sex. What's inside your head, is your business, and your responsibility.

 

It IS your responsibility, as it was Robert Z's wife's, to be HONEST about their dislike of sex. "To be honest I don't like sex. Don't expect to have it with me at all, not very often, and if we do have it, I will resent you for wanting it and accuse you of being my rapist."

 

That's all it takes, ladies--honesty.

 

Of course you are all well aware that if you don't hold out the sexual "goodies" there will be no relationship at all with a normal healthy male. He will just leave you be and find a woman with a normal healthy attitude towards sex, not one who believes it is "disgusting." So it's all your fault that you are dishonest with your partners or prospective partners.

 

 

 

 

 

"Not sex" only according to a person who admittedly finds it "disgusting." Answer honestly: Do you tell people when you first contemplate entering a relationship that you hate sex because it disgusts you? If so, and they still consent to a relationship with you, then fine, they consented to a relationship with a woman with a psychologically abnormal attitude towards sex.

 

 

 

 

 

If I started a relationship with you and you told me you didn't like sex and thought it was disgusting, I would definitely respect your viewpoint and leave the relationship to find someone more normal.

 

If on the other hand you lied, deceived, and pretended, in order to get the non-sexual benefits of the relationship--you know, since you don't like sex, you must be getting OTHER THINGS out of the relationship, right?--then you are not worthy of anyone's respect. You are a manipulator. Claiming "you don't love me if you want me to have sex with you" is the height of manipulation. This attitude is exactly what Robert Z is talking about, you are the stellar example of this attitude in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

"She" should "understand" that an attitude that sex is "disgusting" per se is going to be a major, unavoidable problem in ANY relationship with a normal, healthy man. It's not a matter of compromise. It's a matter of not being fit for a relationship with a normal, healthy person at all. There is no "compromise" if sex is regarded as "disgusting" by one of the parties.

 

It's a matter of needing years of intensive psychotherapy to figure out why sex is regarded as inherently "disgusting" before one is ready to even get involved in a relationship with anyone. A process that apparently you haven't even started yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. Not if she is going to deliberately involve another person in her life, in her unspoken problem, on false pretenses. That's fraud my dear, and you need to stop, if that's what you're doing in your relationships.

 

 

 

 

It's her own choice to get involved or not get involved, and if so, to tell the truth or to lie by commission or by omission. Something tells me you are smart enough that you don't tell new men you are disgusted by sex. You flirt, you use your powers of sexual attraction, you make excuses for "not going too far" by saying you're an "old fashioned good girl", you hook these guys into relationships with you. When the real truth isn't that you're an "old fashioned good girl," it's that you hate sex. With men, at least. Then after you get the man fully committed on the false pretense that you are just waiting to see if he is "serious" before having sex with him, and he proves he is serious, you turn it around and claim he is trying to rape you. But you never tell the guy sex disgusts you in general and you have a severe, untreated (and perhaps untreatable) hang up about it. You try to make the guy think he is some sort of unreasonable rapist (like Robert Z's wife did).

 

 

 

 

I assure you honey if you were honest with the guys you dated and simply told them that you think sex is disgusting and will resent them if they expect to have it with you, you won't have anything to worry about. The will RUN away. Screaming.

 

Hmm.. Don't know who you are and you obviously have no idea about my story. If being held down and forced to have sex with a 350 pound man while you're crying isn't considered rape then I have no idea what is. And I did NOT stay in my marriage. I left him quite promptly. Our marriage lasted 8 months, from "I do" to separation. Because he KNEW very well my aversions to sex and NEVER pushed it on me. Until we were married and it was all of a sudden my "obligation" to have sex with him on demand.

My ideals of sex have nothing to do with genitals. They are beautiful things. But the fluids involved absolutely disgust me. And that's not something I hide from potential partners. Penetration has almost no physical effect on me. It's quite hard to even pretend like you're enjoying yourself during sex when you pretty much have no idea what's going on. I've never hid my physical defect with anyone I've been with. Or anyone in my life for that matter. I've always wanted to know what real sex feels like. I will never know what women gush about when it comes to those things. Nor will I ever achieve orgasm through penetration. Ever. I know that I'm not exactly a "prize" to anyone who prioritizes sex. Because to me it will never be a priority. And yes, I do get benefits from my relationships. It's called companionship. I don't expect my partner to provide for me. What is this with equating sex to money? Are all women hookers now because their SO works? I have sex somewhat regularly when I'm in a relationship. Not because I feel "obligated", but because I enjoy the emotional connection. And by "somewhat regularly" I don't mean "weekly". I'm talking every couple of months or so. My husband knew very well my views on sex and the effects it had on me long before he ever proposed. Or started dating me for that matter. He never complained about my problem. Which is WHY I married him. He understood that it wasn't my fault and that I did try to please him when I could get myself there mentally. He never complained of having to deal with it himself. Until AFTER we said our vows.

I'm probably not normal. Not many women suffer from my problem and I understand that I have been put in a hard position because of it. There is no medication or surgery to fix me. I will freely give of myself to a partner whom I love so long as it isn't forced upon me in any way. It just won't be often. It does literally almost nothing for me. And I would be quite happy to live celibate and alone, except I miss the companionship. All of my relationships have come from friendships. So they knew well before we dated what my problems were. I'm very open and honest and talk freely about it when the occasion arises. And I've been in and out of therapy since I was 4, and am currently in therapy, yes. Therapy won't heal physical wounds and scars. Nor will it change a physical reaction to certain situations. I don't always hate sex. I simply mostly prefer not to do it. I will not engage in a relationship with a man whom I'm not fully confident in concerning this particular argument. Because to ask a man to settle with me is to ask him to let go of his sexual priorities and be willing to accept that he won't get "it" often. To do otherwise would most certainly set the relationship up to fail. And/or for him to cheat on me. Yes, that has happened as well.

[mercy]

Here is my argument in one sentence: Men's needs have generally been triviliazed by women, but those same women fully expect their needs to be met.

 

Now this doesn't apply to women with a healthy sex drive and or who at least try to have a good sex life. This about all of those women who lose their drive and then expect their husbands to go jack off for the rest of their lives.

 

Why are you concerning yourself with all those other women?

 

Maybe all those other women wish there was a little blue pill for them, too.

[kizmet74]

I recently ended a relationship with a guy who made me feel as though I was obligated to have sex with him when he wanted it. Half the time I felt as though I was being raped and the other half I felt as though I was just a hole for him to stick his pecker in. Neither was a very nice feeling and was FAR from the way things were when we first started having sex. I absolutely LOVED having sex with him in the begining when he took the time to actually get me in the mood; when he treated me more like a human rather than an object.

 

I understand that may not always be the case and that hormones do play a large role. I believe that couples should seriously talk about it. I do not believe that one or the other should be obligated in any way to feel as though they are nothing more than an object just there to please the other person.

 

As far as being obligated to do anything in a marriage, this is untrue. You should do the things you do out of love and respect, not obligation.

 

If you love your wife, discuss the issue with her. She may feel the same way you do. I know my parents used to complain to me about the other one not wanting sex.

[Radu]

 

If you love your wife, discuss the issue with her. She may feel the same way you do. I know my parents used to complain to me about the other one not wanting sex.

 

Wow, that's pretty messed up, if at a young age.

 

Robert Z has a big point in all of this but his post is about wives like his who enforce celibacy on their man, there is no love or respect by them doing this, it's just something incredibly selfish they do.

And his posts are many times spot onto this.

 

You are also right, but i notice you say 'relationship'.

 

How long ?

 

What if that 'relationship' is 20yrs of marriage, with kids, with a SAHM who will take your kids in the case of a divorce and might bring a scumbag into their lives.

Carhill made a very good point, your choices are go, stay, affair, open relationship or go insane.

Forced celibacy in a relationship feels to a guy with a good sex-drive like PMS ... every freaking day.

 

So yeah, you are both right ...

[frozensprouts]

sometimes i wonder if there may be more to reduced sex drive in both men and women than meets the eye...

 

so many people today take different medications than can affect one's sex drive...everything from antidepressants to some heart medications, blood pressure medications and even birth control pills can have this effect...

 

life today also seems to be pretty hectic and stressful...this can lead to a reduced sex drive in both men and women...i wonder if there is a biological basis for this? after all, having sex can ( obviously) lead to pregnancy, and in days gone by, there may have been some biological value in not getting pregnant or producing offspring during times of stress ( famine,disease epidemics, etc)...carry that to today, and maybe our bodies are reacting the same way...

 

if someone, be they male or female , has a reduced sex drive, perhaps these should be investigated with a doctor to see if there is anything that can be done. Perhaps medications can be adjusted, stress reduced, whatever. If a husband/wife does this, then perhaps their souse can take some comfort in knowing that they really are trying to make things better.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Happy as I want to be? Would you be happy after wasting 25 years, which is about your age I'm guessing.

 

Ideally, the younguns will listen to somebody like me - an old woman who has had many hormone-fests of all different kinds, and also acquainted with the sexual challenges faced by many men in my age group.

 

Robert Z, I'm sorry you had a bad marriage, but you are pretty far off base when you extrapolate your experience far and wide. It's not universal at all, truly.