Consolidated discussion - Online dating

[soccerrprp]

I'll never understand the online dating mentality. The men come on strong at the first meet/date and are upfront about expressing and asking for relationship needs. I personally think that a first date is too soon to be talking about all of that, but that seems to be the norm w online dating.

 

I just think its odd and a little hypercritical for a man to ask a woman if she's relationship minded or not when he's actively seeking many women on match, eharmony, okcupid etc.

 

Its almost as if they are saying "ok, do you want to be in a relationship/have sex," "No, not yet?, ok NEXT...how about you, do you want to be in a relationship, ok Next do you...

 

Such a turn off.

 

Guys come on strong likely b/c they know they have other options. So, can't waste their time on women, who are also likely multi-dating or perceived to be. Rude, yes, but it happens.

 

They're playing the OLD game. Mostly the guys do this I find. I've had success on OLD and don't believe i've met a lady that played THAT game.

[grkBoy]

OLD has become a hurried mess. People were so quick to go from hot to cold and then vanish without word, so guys ended up falling into the "seal the deal ASAP before she changed her mind" mentality.

 

Many guys out there believe if they can get a girl into bed quickly and give her an orgasm, the oxytocin will kick in and thus she'll be attached and not quick to leave.

 

Not the best logic, but we've all seen it happen in real life. Usually pretty girls with low self-esteem who fall for playas.

[sabre80]

OLD can be a vicious cycle of suck. I can kind of understand the men in the OP's post. I have personally invested time in numerous women OLD only to be nexted like an ADD 5 year old in a shiny store. They bounce from one prospect to the next in the endless meat market. All that I could deal with but what really would get me frustrated was that some of these women would contact me a few weeks/months later after going Houdini and try to pretend they were just so swamped and did not have time for dating. Sorry lady I am not a second choice.

 

So yea I generally put out serious relationship feelers out early to gauge weather they are generally looking to get to know me or am I just another slightly better option and a long line of upgrades.

[Woggle]

Why not ask for what you want upfront? Lay your cards on the table and people can take or not take.

[Imajerk17]

When a guy tries to sweep me off my feet I put my guard up. Most men that come on strong just want sex or are really clingy...or their interest will burn off quickly. Do women really expect that?

 

I have told every single guy I met online that I wasnt interested in how I felt if they contacted me again after a date. If they pay for my dinner, I feel too guilty giving them silence. Some guys dont take it too well and appreciate my honesty however. I cannot stand it when people just ignore you. Its sad women's behavior cause men to feel this way...

 

 

Good for you kimberly. That's refreshing.

 

Now I'm usually beating the drumbeat of taking responsibility to the struggling guys. I really feel that if a guy stops complaining and actually puts himself out there, he will meet a lot of women. But that doesn't mean that I feel that dating is always peaches and cream for every guy who has the right attitude.

 

Getting back to your post: Unfortunately yes, many women do behave in this less-than-respectful way. The rationale many a woman has given for this behavior is: (a) When she told the last guy she wasn't interested he reacted really poorly so she decided to be self-protective from now on and just vanish. (b) Men don't call her back all the time so why does she owe a guy she went out with once an answer. (These women are not considering that two big differences are that the guy actually paid for the first date and that he called for the second, but whatever.)

 

Women tend to be a lot pickier than men: It tends to takes a lot more for her to want to go out with someone a second time, than it takes for the guy to want to do likewise. I've read somewhere that a woman might be willing to see 30% of her first dates again, while a man will want to see maybe 75% of his first dates again. She needs to feel "that spark" whereas usually we just care that she looks as good as she does in her pictures and has her life more or less together. [i haven't commented about the stage after that where it is clear that you both "really like" each other and I think that's a different issue altogether.]

 

Anyway guys do figure out that a "nice" first date in OLD just isn't going to cut it, so they decide they need to come on strong. I don't agree that coming on strong is a good strategy---see the PUA Community--but now you (and SunsetRed) know what else might be motivating that behavior in the dates you meet from online. Guys usually are only trying to do what it takes to see you again.

 

It's as grkBoy said 3 posts above.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Imajerk17

[Zulnex]

Why not ask for what you want upfront? Lay your cards on the table and people can take or not take.

 

This is exactly what I am thinking as well.

[trevzilla]

feeling pretty good about life the last couple of weeks. The sun is shining here in Vancouver which helps. Foolishly decided to throw my hat back in the ring and get the usual rejection and questioning myself and feeling a bit down. That's it, my POF profile is hidden forever now and my other accounts with other sites have been deleted and no more online dating. I don't need this crap. I'd rather be alone. I have a great life, I'm intelligent, have a wonderful job and hobbies. I don't need some woman to validate that. I was proactive today and texted a friend who met up with me for coffee and another friend texted me and we all joined up for some hang out time and food. Life's too short. I'm just going to work at my friendships and strengthen ties. I have some amazing friends who get into deep conversations and I can be honest with them about my ups and downs and they accept me for who I am. Honestly I've been single for almost 5 years and I'm beginning to get used to it and not mind that much. I'm out, women have way too much power in the dating world and especially OLD; it's just not worth the grovelling and begging and for what? I'd probably just end up with another high maintenance hag like my ex wife. My advice for men is to just withdraw from OLD and stop stroking women's egos. OLD is a complete joke for men. If you must continue, mass message women a template and expect nothing more than the occasional hookup with a woman you are meh about. If you are their equal they'll look past you to a guy who is above them, because OLD creates those expectations; men have virtually no value as there is an oversupply of them. I detest online dating now, all it's good for is destroying a man's confidence.

Edited March 30, 2013 by trevzilla

[greenetree]

feeling pretty good about life the last couple of weeks. The sun is shining here in Vancouver which helps. Foolishly decided to throw my hat back in the ring and get the usual rejection and questioning myself and feeling a bit down. That's it, my POF profile is hidden forever now and my other accounts with other sites have been deleted and no more online dating. I don't need this crap. I'd rather be alone. I have a great life, I'm intelligent, have a wonderful job and hobbies. I don't need some woman to validate that. I was proactive today and texted a friend who met up with me for coffee and another friend texted me and we all joined up for some hang out time and food. Life's too short. I'm just going to work at my friendships and strengthen ties. I have some amazing friends who get into deep conversations and I can be honest with them about my ups and downs and they accept me for who I am. Honestly I've been single for almost 5 years and I'm beginning to get used to it and not mind that much. I'm out, women have way too much power in the dating world and especially OLD; it's just not worth the grovelling and begging and for what? I'd probably just end up with another high maintenance hag like my ex wife. My advice for men is to just withdraw from OLD and stop stroking women's egos. OLD is a complete joke for men. If you must continue, mass message women a template and expect nothing more than the occasional hookup with a woman you are meh about. If you are their equal they'll look past you to a guy who is above them, because OLD creates those expectations; men have virtually no value as there is an oversupply of them. I detest online dating now, all it's good for is destroying a man's confidence.

 

Yet another post where you are projecting blame on women and it can't possibly be something wrong with your approach...

[fortyninethousand322]

Maybe this is just a product of where I live, but there seems to be quite a few women on OKC who think it should be illegal to burn the flag. I don't want to go into the politics of flag burning or anything, but that just seems odd/distressing to me.

[CryForNoOne]

I thought greentree's post on what men should not say was very insightful: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/336060-consolidated-discussion-online-dating-42.html#post4726930

 

A common complaint I've heard is that men find it nearly impossible to get replies from women that are in their "league" or "tier" IRL. Therefore OLD is worthless for guys unless you are a player. Not true! I'm good looking but the compliments I get are cute or handsome, not hot or studly. I do have a well written profile but I'm landing dates with women that are starting to top what I attract IRL. So I figured I'd share some of the techniques that I have found to be highly successful for me. I've been having increasing success on OK Cupid, to the point where I'm now getting almost a 50% reply rate from my first messages. This is way up from virtually nil my first few weeks. Just tonight I scored 3 dates from 8 messages I sent last night. I'm actually going to take a break from messaging any more girls for a while because I've got as much as I can handle. I’m assuming you are looking for a LTR and not a ONS, also this advice is specific just for OK Cupid as it’s the only OLD site I’ve tried. If you just want a ONS, I suspect the spam technique is more efficient than the system I'm suggesting below:

 

1. I use Quickmatch to view profiles as I get to see several close-up pics at a glance. This is so much faster than Matches or Quiver. I only read their profiles if I find them physically attractive. If I like their profile I rate them 4 or 5 stars.

 

2. I usually need to view about 100 profiles to find about 10 candidates. I click on the “You’ve Rated” tab and add the 10 or so profiles I just rated 4 or 5 stars to my favorites. This allows me to see if they are online at a glance. VERY important.

 

3. I now go through each profile and spend a minute or two coming up with something witty or interesting for my first message. Keep it short. 3 sentences MAX! I used to sometimes write long messages. Bad idea. It might increase your odds slightly with some women, but more often than not, you come off as needy and it’s a colossal waste of time. You’ll get more responses on average with brief messages to 4 different women than one novel to your dream girl. A few general suggestions:

 

a. Keep it positive. Never say anything negative!

b. Avoid complimenting their looks or making an overtly sexual remark.

c.

Clearly demonstrate you read their profile.

d. It’s not funny if you need to add an LOL.

e. Double check your grammar!

 

4. Your first message should always accomplish at least one of the following:

a. Get them to laugh.

b. Say something thought provoking.

c. Make them curious - get them to click on your profile.

 

5. I NEVER send the FIRST message unless they are online. IF THERE IS ONLY ONE THING YOU TAKE AWAY FROM THIS THREAD. IT'S THIS. If they are offline I save the message in the private note section that OKC creates for each favorite. This is CRITICAL so that I can quickly cut and paste it when they are online. Attractive girls get so many messages that you can literally get lost in all the noise. If you send them the message while they are online, not only is it at the top of their inbox, but a little notification pops up that they’ll almost always notice. Once I started sending messages this way, I’d often see them visit my profile within minutes, sometimes seconds. When I saw this happening time and again, I realized my profile was being visited much more than when I sent offline messages. Profile being visited means message being read. My response rate has gone WAY up since I started doing this.

 

6. Once they reply and you have a conversation started, it’s OK to reply even if they are offline. As a matter of fact, it might be creepy if you’re there waiting to message them every time they go online... EXCEPTION: One girl I recently went on a date with took like 3 days to reply when we first started messaging. I figured she just wasn’t that interested, but after I switched to messaging her only when she was online, she’d get back to me sometimes in minutes.

 

7. I always take note of the style of their reply and usually follow their lead. If they keep things light hearted so do I. If they write me a book, I usually send them an equally lengthy reply. Invariably though I start dropping hints about us meeting. Things like “We should order that when we go to that restaurant…” or “What song would you like me to play for you…” Never too presumptuous, just suggestive. Also don’t become pen pals. Cut to the chase. Exchange no more than 3 long messages or 5-6 short messages before asking them out. Be direct and confident. Never use the words “maybe” or “sometime” or “consider”. If you can suggest a specific place or day even better. I try to get some sense of the places they like and when they might be free to meet up beforehand. One of the dates I scored tonight actually ended her last message with “I will cut to the chase. Drink? Dinner? Adventure?” I liked that.

 

8. Another important thing to gauge is a woman’s comfort level with meeting strangers. Some seem fine with just exchanging a few messages online and then meeting up (the girl above). Others want the process to take days, text message for a while, talk on the phone, or even friend you on Facebook. I’m fine with that as I’m sure there are a ton of creeps out there. If I sense some apprehension, I don’t straight ask them out, I’ll suggest taking the convo offline and give them my cell phone number, then let them contact me. They usually will if you stay within their comfort zone throughout.

 

Finally in closing I figured I'd share 3 opening messages that worked. I got enthusiastic replies from each and ultimately they resulted in dates.

 

1) In her profile she mentioned flash mobs make her cry.

I replied: “Why do flash mobs make you cry? People cry for many reasons - anger, laughter, joy?”

 

2) In her profile she said to message her if you’re a white guy. For some this might be a deterrent but I didn’t care.

I replied: “I'm half white but my friend, who is blond, told me she is more Asian than I am. Does that count?”

 

3) In her profile she listed a current passport as one of the six things she could never do without.

I replied: “I noticed you wrote CURRENT passport. I actually like to flip through my expired passport from time to time. I reminisce about all the interesting places I’ve been and the date stamps take me back to different stages of my life.”

 

One last closing thought. There is nothing profound about any of these messages. But they're effective because I don't come off as trying to hard. It's something that came to mind, feels conversational, is not too contrived, and fulfills all the criteria I listed above in #3 and 4. Poetry is lame...

 

Hope this helps and good luck!

Edited April 3, 2013 by CryForNoOne

[ChessPieceFace]

So you have to pull the online version of stalking your crush and "accidentally" bumping into them somewhere?

 

Sigh.

[drew_meister]

Very useful. Thx.

[SuperGeek]

This is a great write up and I think it could help some males with online dating who are willing to get rejected a lot. At some point they might win the lottery and score a date, but my own experience with it just wasn't worth it.

 

I am biased in that I think online dating is a waste of time for most males. The probability of success for males seems to be getting worse every year due to 1) increased number of males willing to join dating sites (they are flooded now) 2) automated female profiles added internally by these sites which are fake to bump up the number of females on these sites. I do not believe the ratio of males/females on these sites is true -- I believe the number of real females on these sites is much lower and the number of males is much higher.

 

It is for these reasons above and my own personal failure with online dating that I have closed all my profiles. I'd rather spend the time just having fun and living my life then hours and hours trying to find a way to impress some girl with a lavish email sent to them on some dating site (the profile might not even be real either). The reality is most girls will be getting spammed to death by men -- She likely won't even read most of the emails she received once she has been on a few dates with a guy she finds interesting. My neighbour just put up a profile with literally nothing but a conservative photograph of herself (just a face photo) and she's averaging about 50 emails a DAY -- she doesn't even read them all.

 

Great write up, but just not willing to spend my time writing emails when I can go to a meetup and meet girls in person. In person allows for a lot more chemistry to develop and isn't based on some textual flirtation that has a very slim chance of attracting anyone.

 

SuperGeek

[cdt76]

This is a great write up and I think it could help some males with online dating who are willing to get rejected a lot. At some point they might win the lottery and score a date, but my own experience with it just wasn't worth it.

 

I am biased in that I think online dating is a waste of time for most males. The probability of success for males seems to be getting worse every year due to 1) increased number of males willing to join dating sites (they are flooded now) 2) automated female profiles added internally by these sites which are fake to bump up the number of females on these sites. I do not believe the ratio of males/females on these sites is true -- I believe the number of real females on these sites is much lower and the number of males is much higher.

 

It is for these reasons above and my own personal failure with online dating that I have closed all my profiles. I'd rather spend the time just having fun and living my life then hours and hours trying to find a way to impress some girl with a lavish email sent to them on some dating site (the profile might not even be real either). The reality is most girls will be getting spammed to death by men -- She likely won't even read most of the emails she received once she has been on a few dates with a guy she finds interesting. My neighbour just put up a profile with literally nothing but a conservative photograph of herself (just a face photo) and she's averaging about 50 emails a DAY -- she doesn't even read them all.

 

Great write up, but just not willing to spend my time writing emails when I can go to a meetup and meet girls in person. In person allows for a lot more chemistry to develop and isn't based on some textual flirtation that has a very slim chance of attracting anyone.

 

SuperGeek

 

AMEN! I just closed all but one account today. I lack friends in the area as I'm new to the city so going out to places where the girls are is harder for me. So I tried the online thing. It was a miserable failure. Regardless of any method to attract women, I too am not willing to dedicate that much time and effort to it, when the reality is, any woman should be more than ecstatic to have me in their lives. But if all they see is a profile picture....they don't get it!

[Treasa]

I'm normally pretty skeptical about posts like this, but I think you made a lot of great points.

[sillyanswer]

I agree with the 'message them when they are online' bit. I sometimes approach it the other way and do a search for people who are "online now" and, for the ones I like, send them a message straight away. Similar idea - they're more likely to see the message if they are online.

 

Date with a new girl tomorrow.

[CryForNoOne]

So you have to pull the online version of stalking your crush and "accidentally" bumping into them somewhere?

 

Sigh.

 

That's a terrible analogy. There is no stalking whatsoever. I message whoever is online from a pool of about 20-30 favorites I've previously saved.

 

It's more the equivalent of approaching a girl at the bar when she is alone for a moment - instead of being a tool and standing there waiting while she's already talking to 3 other guys...

[outsidethebox]

OP, this is absolutely the most informative OLD post for men I have ever seen. Every point you make I can vouch for with my experience (learned over last three months).

 

Just before I replied I saw an anklebiter reply already. The online aspects of your points is exactly right and in fact when I Match (which I haven't done too much recently) I sort by Last Time Online. The top matches are online at the time.

 

Kudos to a heck of an OLD tips writeup. And congrats on your newly developed phenomenal date rate.

[Els]

I don't do OLD, but thinking back to the non-OLD-related online media I participated in when I was single and the men who talked to me (two of whom became my ex-bfs ), I definitely think your points are pretty solid.

[CryForNoOne]

Regardless of any method to attract women, I too am not willing to dedicate that much time and effort to it, when the reality is, any woman should be more than ecstatic to have me in their lives.

 

I put in about two hours a week and got 3 dates last night. Dates with 8 different women in the last 3-4 weeks. And it's free. I can't think of anything IRL that comes anywhere close to that efficient. About once a week I add 10 favorites and draft messages. That takes about an hour. I've got about 20-30 favorites saved at any given time. I'll go online a few times a day for just a minute or two and cut, paste, and send the messages I already wrote to anyone I see online. It's actually reaching the point now where I'm only going online to respond to messages, and if I start chatting with a girl, I'll take care of the "work" part of OKC while waiting for her reply.

 

You really need to try this system on OKC or adapt something similar for whatever site you are using before you just throw your arms up in the air. Four weeks ago I was frustrated and just about to give up on OLD but I decided to completely change my approach. PLease take the time to read my initial post in this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/378377-okcupid-work

I just reread it myself and it's remarkable what a complete 180 I've had in both success and opinion about OLD (of course the two go hand in hand). It took only 4 weeks...

[greenetree]

Perfecto!

 

One other thing I'd add is not to click on a girl's profile too many times - especially when you're online and chatting. It get's a bit creepy if I see them visiting my page constantly. It's not necessary when getting to know someone IRL so why do you need to "study" me before saying something...

[FitChick]

I thought you had to turn in your old passport when you got a new one.

[SuperGeek]

All I can say is I'm glad I'm done with OLD

 

Perfecto!

 

One other thing I'd add is not to click on a girl's profile too many times - especially when you're online and chatting. It get's a bit creepy if I see them visiting my page constantly. It's not necessary when getting to know someone IRL so why do you need to "study" me before saying something...

[CryForNoOne]

I thought you had to turn in your old passport when you got a new one.

 

I still have mine.

[mortensorchid]

Like the observation and opinions, but I have given up on OKC. It was just a waste of time for me on all levels.