Respect for religion?

[123321]

You might put this on his reading list.

[Silly_Girl]

You might put this on his reading list.

 

Looks thought-provoking, and just at the start of school hols! Thanks

[Stellar Wench]

I'm curious as to whether those who are atheist/agnostic have respect for those with faith.

 

If yes, why? If no, why?

 

My reason for asking is that my teenage son is a huge science fan and over the last 18 months or so has become increasingly disrespectful towards religious beliefs and inevitably about those who believe in creationism. I'm interested in hearing others' views. Thanks.

Your son is going through a tough time. It is common for youngsters who are going through it to cling to things and ideas that they know to be true, since things around them are uncertain.

 

Once your son has finished counselling and feels better, he may find himself more tolerant of other's beliefs, even if he thinks them to be total rubbish.

[Silly_Girl]

That's a good point actually. Also, his friends from school (with one or two exceptions) are now (last 6 months or so) going to house parties, drinking, smoking, having sex. He won't socialise with those boys outside of school (his choice only) and his social life is inhibited as a result. Even more reason for him to be interested in (cling to?) this issue as something of his own of focus and interest.

[Tulsy]

I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want...I don't care.

 

That said, if someone starts quoting their brand of bible as fact, I'm gonna call them out on it. I find it disrespectful for religious people to discuss their beliefs in my presence...I tolerate it, but if you are going to talk your belief, you are going to hear what I think too.

 

I think that is fair.

[Silly_Girl]

I have a few rambling thoughts on this, so take or leave it or skip it.

 

I will readily admit that I believe in a Higher Power purely our of necessity. I was an agnostic for many many many years. it wasn't until someone very dear to me passed away that I accepted any kind of Higher Power, and I did it because I refused to believe that I would never see him ever again. If anyone can show me some other belief system when I will be able to see loved ones again, I will gladly entertain it. So my belief is something that your son may find completely delusional, but I'm okay with that. I may be completely wrong, but let's all face it- there's really no proof either way. Just because I've never seen a God doesn't necessarily mean that he/she/it doesn't exist. Conversely, there are people who believe that God is everywhere- in the trees, the sky, in us. So who am I to say? And more importantly, what harm is there is believing? The only people that really know the truth are those that have already passed. This is why I never get fired up over people having different beliefs- I have no horse in the race, so I'm good with people believing what they want to believe as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

 

So my belief is that everyone that holds a particular belief/attitude does so because it serves them best. My father will most likely pass this week, but brings me comfort to think that I will see him again. That belief serves me best. People who are deeply passionate about something are so because it serves them. So- what need is being currently met by your son having what you feel is a disrespectful attitude? Is it a firm grasp of the unknown? Is it rebellion against something external? Is it something else? What is it? Figure out what need is being met by his disrespect and then you can more easily determine whether that attitude will change.

 

Another thought- faith is a belief not based on proof. Has your son ever believed in anything he cannot prove? Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? the Easter bunny? Perhaps if he can see faith on a personal level, his attitude may change towards it.

 

Sorry to hear about your dad. I hope the time he has left is as peaceful as possible.

 

Regarding proof, I believe there *is* proof gods do not exist. Lots of people would not share that view. However, like you, I'm not too bothered by others' religious beliefs, if they're happy to believe it peacefully.

 

I think my son is (I hate this phrase) 'finding himself'. He's learning to express, albeit gently, hurt and anger (mostly father-related) and is finding his own path whilst under peer pressure to do the things his friends are doing. I think he lacks confidence in these aspects (as yet) but this - his passion for science and conviction about religion - is something he has some certainty about and can feel confident even whilst being challenged. I'm guessing it's very safe for him.

 

The Santa/Easter bunny thing you mention actually fuels his fire, he likens religion to the 'conspiracies' children face as they grow up

[Silly_Girl]

I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want...I don't care.

 

That said, if someone starts quoting their brand of bible as fact, I'm gonna call them out on it. I find it disrespectful for religious people to discuss their beliefs in my presence...I tolerate it, but if you are going to talk your belief, you are going to hear what I think too.

 

I think that is fair.

 

I like it

[Zaphod B]

To be honest I'm not sure there is anything respectable about religious beliefs. Good Christian actions are respectable but not Christian beliefs. They're an unwillingness to break free from superstition, an unwillingness to face reality and accept the world for what it is. It's all about indoctronating children and demonising those who think differently to you. It's the desire to remain locked in a fantasy world where God has everything in his hand and you're gonna get to live on after you die.

 

Would any of us respect an adult who still believes in Santa Claus? Or who beleives in fairies? I certainly wouldn't and more and more... for me... "God" is falling into that particular realm of fantasy as more and more facts come to light. Sometimes it infuriates me when relgious folk sit on their high horse looking down their noses at "unbelievers" as if they are some third rate citizen who needs salvation. It's arrogant and it's hypocritical.

 

And it's not just Christians who don't deserve respect... I couldn't believe an article I read in the papers here in New Zealand about Maori politicians who expect us white New Zealanders to respect their silly superstitions relatiing to Maori mythology and beliefs in spirits they call "Taniwhas". What? We have politicians who believe that BS? What business have they got being in charge of our country? Do we want these idiots running our country? Seriously? No, I don't respect their beliefs, but yet Christians believe in stuff just as ridiculous as some Maori do and they would be the first to chastise the Maori for their silly beliefs.

 

No, I am not some angry atheist. I was a brought up in a Christian home and was a genuine Christian... having given my life to the lord at age 7 and actively "serving the lord" for over 30 years... until about 6-7 years ago where one day I came to the heartbreaking realisation that the bible wasn't all it was cracked up to be and that I just didn't believe it anymore.

 

Since then I have been an active member of religious forums hoping to have hard questions answered. Over that time, no good answers came, only "because the bible says so" or "God works in mysterious ways". That's all it comes down to. "YOu just have to believe it!" Well no, I can no longer believe it and it's becoming increasingly difficult to respect people, especially fundamentalist Christians who have no ability to reason or think things through critically. If you are one of the minority of religious folk who is open minded and is willing to look at the bible and God a little more critically, then that's great. I respect you. But if you are of the majority who refuse to acknowledge any arguments that go against the bible or the divinity or holiness of God, then I'm gonna find it very hard to respect you. And I'm talking about people like my ex-wife who only found out a few weeks ago that I am no longer a believer. When I tried to tell her why I didn't believe she pretty much put her fingers in her ears and said "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" and that is so typical of the average Christian I have come across. Finally she says "You've changed." But my response is, "no, I haven't changed. I'm the same person I was 7 years ago, it's just my beliefs that have changed, nothing more".

 

So basically, I find it hard to respect Christianity and although there are many great Christians out there doing good things and being of value to society, it's hard to get over what I see as silly beliefs, especially knowing that I once believed that stuff myself. I just want to shake it out of them and I see more harm in religion than good these days.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Zaphod B

[Forever Silent]

I respect people from all walks of life. Religion and respect are mutually exclusive. A human character can not be judged by religion alone.

[Robert Z]

I'm curious as to whether those who are atheist/agnostic have respect for those with faith.

 

If yes, why? If no, why?

 

My reason for asking is that my teenage son is a huge science fan and over the last 18 months or so has become increasingly disrespectful towards religious beliefs and inevitably about those who believe in creationism. I'm interested in hearing others' views. Thanks.

 

Science is based on logic and evidence. Religion is based on faith. That in itself isn't so much a problem, I think, as is the effort to make claims like intelligent design appear to be scientific in nature and somehow on par with actual physical evidence and well tested models. The same is true of those who deny the age of the planet, evolution, and techniques like carbon and potassium-argon dating. Those folks are highly vocal and politically active and they threaten the foundations of critical thinking in our schools and elsewhere. This is what drives the popular hatred of religion among many scholars.

 

So I don't think this is as much about religion as it is politics. The problem is when people try to argue against logic with faith. No, I can't respect that. Believe what you want but don't try to argue faith to be anything more than faith. That is just a lie.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Robert Z

[Silly_Girl]

And it's not just Christians who don't deserve respect... I couldn't believe an article I read in the papers here in New Zealand about Maori politicians who expect us white New Zealanders to respect their silly superstitions relatiing to Maori mythology and beliefs in spirits they call "Taniwhas". What? We have politicians who believe that BS? What business have they got being in charge of our country? Do we want these idiots running our country? Seriously? No, I don't respect their beliefs, but yet Christians believe in stuff just as ridiculous as some Maori do and they would be the first to chastise the Maori for their silly beliefs.

 

 

Thanks for a really interesting post. And the quoted above made my jaw drop!

[BetheButterfly]

To be honest I'm not sure there is anything respectable about religious beliefs. Good Christian actions are respectable but not Christian beliefs.

 

"Good Christian actions" come from Christian beliefs. Many Christians help make the world a better place, including William Wilberforce, Elisabeth Heyrick, Martin Luther King Jr., and Mother Theresa. Their "Good Christian actions" were a result of their beliefs.

 

They're an unwillingness to break free from superstition, an unwillingness to face reality and accept the world for what it is.

 

If you think the world is a horrible place and there is no hope for it, guess what? You'll live that way. If however you think that although the world has issues (and Christian beliefs, as well as Buddhist and other beliefs do have different explanations as to why the earth is in such a man-made mess) yet there is hope and the ability to make the world a better place, then you will live for making a positive difference.

 

It's all about indoctronating children and demonising those who think differently to you

.

 

That is an issue sad to say in Atheist circles too. Sad to say, some Atheists consider people who believe in God to be stupid, not realizing that many great scientists and inventors, including Sir Isaac Newton and the Wright brothers, believed in God. It seems that some Atheists "deomonize" those who think differently than them.

 

However, Christians are not supposed to demonize others. Although sad to say there are some who do, it is important to understand that Jesus' teachings concerning loving one's enemies, forgiving, doing good to, praying for, and blessing those who curse (Luke 6) does not leave any room for "demonizing those who think differently." So, Christians who "demonize" others are not obeying Jesus' teachings.

 

 

It's the desire to remain locked in a fantasy world where God has everything in his hand and you're gonna get to live on after you die.

 

Would any of us respect an adult who still believes in Santa Claus? Or who beleives in fairies? I certainly wouldn't and more and more... for me... "God" is falling into that particular realm of fantasy as more and more facts come to light.

 

History is very important for some people. As for Santa Claus, there was indeed a man who used to help people. He is for the Catholics a saint. Although the history of what he did definitely got exaggerated and then commercialized in the USA, there is history with a real man from the past involved. Now, why do many people today tell their children stories of a commercialized Santa Claus? Because they want Christmas to be a magical time of fun and excitement for their children. If however they told the children the historic account of a man called Nicholas who put money in the stockings of sisters so they could get married (in that day and age, women had to have dowries) they might not be so excited lol.

 

Personally, I don't tell kids about Santa Claus. Instead, I teach children the importance of giving to the poor and helping those in need all year around. Anyways, one thing that frustrated Atheists might want to note is that there is truth behind legends. There was indeed a man who impacted his community, whose story was exaggerated, embellished, and made into a commercial figure. However, there is truth that can be found after removing all the embellishments people after him gave his story.

 

Sometimes it infuriates me when relgious folk sit on their high horse looking down their noses at "unbelievers" as if they are some third rate citizen who needs salvation. It's arrogant and it's hypocritical.

 

And it's not just Christians who don't deserve respect... I couldn't believe an article I read in the papers here in New Zealand about Maori politicians who expect us white New Zealanders to respect their silly superstitions relatiing to Maori mythology and beliefs in spirits they call "Taniwhas". What? We have politicians who believe that BS? What business have they got being in charge of our country? Do we want these idiots running our country? Seriously? No, I don't respect their beliefs, but yet Christians believe in stuff just as ridiculous as some Maori do and they would be the first to chastise the Maori for their silly beliefs.

 

So I am curious. Do you think that the Native Americans deserved not receiving respect from the Christians who immigrated to the "New World" from Europe? Personally, I am ashamed at how Christians treated the Native Americans. Even though I'm not Native American, I do greatly respect their beliefs and culture and support their freedom to believe what they have believed before other people came and tried to force them to believe differently. I greatly enjoy learning about them and am so sad at the disrespect they have endured for centuries. Are you wanting to do the same in New Zealand and Australia as European migrants did here in the USA???

I have heard stories of how European immigrants in Australia have hurt the Native people, same as how European immigrants to the "New World", the Americas, have hurt the people who were there before them. This is sad and wrong, and I respect the Maori politicians who are taking a stand for their people and way of life!

 

 

No, I am not some angry atheist. I was a brought up in a Christian home and was a genuine Christian... having given my life to the lord at age 7 and actively "serving the lord" for over 30 years... until about 6-7 years ago where one day I came to the heartbreaking realisation that the bible wasn't all it was cracked up to be and that I just didn't believe it anymore.

 

Jesus said, "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but whoever stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:10-14, NIV)

 

It is fine if you do not believe anymore. However, to many of us who do believe, Jesus' prophecy accounted in Matthew 24:10 is fulfilled when people turn away from the faith. However, Christians are not supposed to hate those who turn away, but rather love them and pray for them. Jesus did not teach for Christians to persecute those who no longer follow him or those who never followed him, but rather to focus on our own belief (John 6:65-69)

 

Since then I have been an active member of religious forums hoping to have hard questions answered. Over that time, no good answers came, only "because the bible says so" or "God works in mysterious ways". That's all it comes down to. "YOu just have to believe it!" Well no, I can no longer believe it and it's becoming increasingly difficult to respect people, especially fundamentalist Christians who have no ability to reason or think things through critically. If you are one of the minority of religious folk who is open minded and is willing to look at the bible and God a little more critically, then that's great. I respect you. But if you are of the majority who refuse to acknowledge any arguments that go against the bible or the divinity or holiness of God, then I'm gonna find it very hard to respect you. And I'm talking about people like my ex-wife who only found out a few weeks ago that I am no longer a believer. When I tried to tell her why I didn't believe she pretty much put her fingers in her ears and said "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" and that is so typical of the average Christian I have come across. Finally she says "You've changed." But my response is, "no, I haven't changed. I'm the same person I was 7 years ago, it's just my beliefs that have changed, nothing more".

 

So basically, I find it hard to respect Christianity and although there are many great Christians out there doing good things and being of value to society, it's hard to get over what I see as silly beliefs, especially knowing that I once believed that stuff myself. I just want to shake it out of them and I see more harm in religion than good these days.

 

 

There's a saying that goes like "Birds of a feather flock together." If a person is not willing to respect people who are different than him/her, it's probably best to interact only with people of the same belief as yourself. However, for those who enjoy interacting with people of different beliefs, ethnicity, cultures, ... and are willing to mutually respect others who are different than they are, a world of diversity is awesome!!!

[Zaphod B]

Thanks for a really interesting post. And the quoted above made my jaw drop!

 

Here's the article if you're interested:

 

Taniwha proof of Maori water rights - National - NZ Herald News

 

Oh and a "Pakeha" is a white New Zealander.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Zaphod B

[Zaphod B]

"Good Christian actions" come from Christian beliefs. Many Christians help make the world a better place, including William Wilberforce, Elisabeth Heyrick, Martin Luther King Jr., and Mother Theresa. Their "Good Christian actions" were a result of their beliefs.

 

When I use the term "Good Christian actions" I refer to any decent actions that result in benefit to others.

 

...........

 

 

 

If you think the world is a horrible place and there is no hope for it, guess what? You'll live that way. If however you think that although the world has issues (and Christian beliefs, as well as Buddhist and other beliefs do have different explanations as to why the earth is in such a man-made mess) yet there is hope and the ability to make the world a better place, then you will live for making a positive difference.

 

I personally do not think the world is a horrible place. I just think people need to stop living in a dream world beleiving there is some magical being who's going to make everything alright, because so far that magical being has done nothing obvious to make this world a better place. Sitting around having faith or praying to God to get something done is not going to achieve anything. It takes real people to get off their butts and take action to make a difference in this world and it's real people (like the ones you mentioned) who make the difference.

...............

 

 

 

So I am curious. Do you think that the Native Americans deserved not receiving respect from the Christians who immigrated to the "New World" from Europe? Personally, I am ashamed at how Christians treated the Native Americans. Even though I'm not Native American, I do greatly respect their beliefs and culture and support their freedom to believe what they have believed before other people came and tried to force them to believe differently. I greatly enjoy learning about them and am so sad at the disrespect they have endured for centuries. Are you wanting to do the same in New Zealand and Australia as European migrants did here in the USA???

 

I have heard stories of how European immigrants in Australia have hurt the Native people, same as how European immigrants to the "New World", the Americas, have hurt the people who were there before them. This is sad and wrong, and I respect the Maori politicians who are taking a stand for their people and way of life!

 

When I look at the Moari people I see that many benefits they have gotten from the European immigrants and it seems most of their gripes are to do with ownership of land, water and just about every other natural resource here. But still, I see little value in Maori Mythology and it may be callous of me, but I'd think the same about the mythology of Native Americans and Australian Aboriginies. If I see people living in ignorance and following worthless superstitions, living in fear over things that aren't even real, etc, etc, I'd want to put them straight. I do the same thing with my kids. No there is no boogy man hiding in your cupboard... Yes, even though vegetables taste yuck they are good for you!

 

It may seem harsh of me, but I see being educated about the world as being more favourable than living in ignorance just because it's part of an ancient culture. European cultures have evolved. Why can't those other cultures evolve as well? What is wrong with them evolving and some of the old traditions being erased? I don't know much about the American Indians but how much of their problems are a result of education?

 

.....................

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus said, "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but whoever stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:10-14, NIV)

 

 

 

It is fine if you do not believe anymore. However, to many of us who do believe, Jesus' prophecy accounted in Matthew 24:10 is fulfilled when people turn away from the faith. However, Christians are not supposed to hate those who turn away, but rather love them and pray for them. Jesus did not teach for Christians to persecute those who no longer follow him or those who never followed him, but rather to focus on our own belief (John 6:65-69)

 

I don't believe that it's any different now to what it was 100, 1000 or even 2000 years ago. People have been falling away from the faith ever since it started. Even Paul saw it as a problem and adamently believed he was in the end times (and even claimed that the gospel had been preached to every living creature under the sun! Col 1:23). He was wrong. The end didn't come. So if Paul was wrong, that's really saying something!

 

Even if it's true that more people are falling away than what they were 1000 years ago (which I would say would be impossible to prove), I would say it would be natural, especially as more and more people are educated about the way the world works... and with modern communications more information is getting out to a lot more people a lot faster than ever before, so it would be only natural.

 

I could start up my own religion, maybe attract a lot of followers and make a claim that somewhere down the track people will be falling away from the faith. Do you think I'd be right? Would you consider it a divine prophecy?

 

 

 

...........................

 

 

 

 

There's a saying that goes like "Birds of a feather flock together." If a person is not willing to respect people who are different than him/her, it's probably best to interact only with people of the same belief as yourself. However, for those who enjoy interacting with people of different beliefs, ethnicity, cultures, ... and are willing to mutually respect others who are different than they are, a world of diversity is awesome!!!

 

But yet many Christians will not apply that principle themselves. In fact the bible commands them to go out and spread the gospel, which is why we have so many Christians bible bashing, disrespecting and judging people.

 

I think it would be wrong to sit back and do nothing. I think if you care about fellow human beings you will want to get out there and do something about things. When I look back at the many years of my life I wasted on meaningless religion it's painful. I could have achieved and experienced so much more with my life up until now. But I invested so much time and money in prayer, study, church and other activities that amounted to nothing. Sure there were good things, no doubts about that, but I regret having spent so much of my time serving a being I now believe to be imaginery.

 

But I do agree, you can't go out there and treat people with disrespect. I don't do that... unless they are really disrespectful a-holes themselves. But deep down do I really respect their beliefs? No. I just can't. But do they earn respect in other ways? Probably. In that case, what they believe is of little consequence when it comes to them as a person.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Zaphod B

[BetheButterfly]

When I use the term "Good Christian actions" I refer to any decent actions that result in benefit to others.

 

Thanks for defining the term.

 

I personally do not think the world is a horrible place. I just think people need to stop living in a dream world beleiving there is some magical being who's going to make everything alright, because so far that magical being has done nothing obvious to make this world a better place. Sitting around having faith or praying to God to get something done is not going to achieve anything. It takes real people to get off their butts and take action to make a difference in this world and it's real people (like the ones you mentioned) who make the difference.

...............

 

I personally don't think the world is a horrible place either, based on my experiences. However, when hearing about the horrible injustices and pain others have gone through, I do see why some people would think so. It is true that both people who believe in God and people who don't can make the world a better place. I do think it's important to note that both believers in God and those who don't believe in God can do this. They can also work together. Courtesy between the 2 groups helps them work together, no?

 

 

 

 

When I look at the Moari people I see that many benefits they have gotten from the European immigrants and it seems most of their gripes are to do with ownership of land, water and just about every other natural resource here. But still, I see little value in Maori Mythology and it may be callous of me, but I'd think the same about the mythology of Native Americans and Australian Aboriginies. If I see people living in ignorance and following worthless superstitions, living in fear over things that aren't even real, etc, etc, I'd want to put them straight. I do the same thing with my kids. No there is no boogy man hiding in your cupboard... Yes, even though vegetables taste yuck they are good for you!

 

It is possible that you think this because you have never "been in their shoes." Sad to say, people of different cultures tend to judge people of other cultures, which often leads to enormous misunderstandings, feelings of superiority over others, and a lack of empathy for others.

 

 

It may seem harsh of me, but I see being educated about the world as being more favourable than living in ignorance just because it's part of an ancient culture. European cultures have evolved. Why can't those other cultures evolve as well? What is wrong with them evolving and some of the old traditions being erased? I don't know much about the American Indians but how much of their problems are a result of education?

 

Do you think European cultures are superior to other cultures? What do you mean by "evolved?" Is learning how to make advanced weaponry make a group of people more "evolved" than another? Or, does it simply show a more extreme desire to conquer other peoples and take their land?

 

 

I don't believe that it's any different now to what it was 100, 1000 or even 2000 years ago. People have been falling away from the faith ever since it started. Even Paul saw it as a problem and adamently believed he was in the end times (and even claimed that the gospel had been preached to every living creature under the sun! Col 1:23). He was wrong. The end didn't come. So if Paul was wrong, that's really saying something!

 

Many people today believe we are in the end times. The end times is not a year or 2 years... many people interpret the end times to have started when Jesus came and to end when he returns. About Col. 1:23, Paul was talking about the goal of the gospel being preached to all nations, which is still taking place today. It's a progressive thing, which most Christians understand.

 

Even if it's true that more people are falling away than what they were 1000 years ago (which I would say would be impossible to prove), I would say it would be natural, especially as more and more people are educated about the way the world works... and with modern communications more information is getting out to a lot more people a lot faster than ever before, so it would be only natural.

 

I could start up my own religion, maybe attract a lot of followers and make a claim that somewhere down the track people will be falling away from the faith. Do you think I'd be right? Would you consider it a divine prophecy?

 

 

 

...........................

 

You are of course free to do what you want, as long as you don't kill anybody or break any laws of the land.

 

As for Jesus, Jesus entered a time period and culture where belief in God was normal and expected. The descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) had for thousands of years believed in One Supreme Being. Also, in their prophecies, the Messiah was promised. Jesus was not the only one who was considered the Messiah by people. Since before him and after him, there have been others considered the Messiah.

 

 

But yet many Christians will not apply that principle themselves. In fact the bible commands them to go out and spread the gospel, which is why we have so many Christians bible bashing, disrespecting and judging people.

 

The gospel doesn't mean to Bible bash or disrespect or judge people. The gospel means telling people about Jesus. People can accept, reject, decide not to listen, persecute, hate, or accept as mere individuals who believe something differently than they do.

 

I think it would be wrong to sit back and do nothing. I think if you care about fellow human beings you will want to get out there and do something about things. When I look back at the many years of my life I wasted on meaningless religion it's painful. I could have achieved and experienced so much more with my life up until now. But I invested so much time and money in prayer, study, church and other activities that amounted to nothing. Sure there were good things, no doubts about that, but I regret having spent so much of my time serving a being I now believe to be imaginery.

 

If you had done something great like William Wilberforce, would you have not seen that time as quite a waste of time?

 

But I do agree, you can't go out there and treat people with disrespect. I don't do that... unless they are really disrespectful a-holes themselves. But deep down do I really respect their beliefs? No. I just can't. But do they earn respect in other ways? Probably. In that case, what they believe is of little consequence when it comes to them as a person.

 

Most Christians who have done great things in life have actually taken their belief in God to a higher level, to one of more action than words, which is cool.

[Zaphod B]

 

I personally don't think the world is a horrible place either, based on my experiences. However, when hearing about the horrible injustices and pain others have gone through, I do see why some people would think so. It is true that both people who believe in God and people who don't can make the world a better place. I do think it's important to note that both believers in God and those who don't believe in God can do this. They can also work together. Courtesy between the 2 groups helps them work together, no?

 

Agreed.

 

Do you think European cultures are superior to other cultures? What do you mean by "evolved?" Is learning how to make advanced weaponry make a group of people more "evolved" than another? Or, does it simply show a more extreme desire to conquer other peoples and take their land?

 

I could not say whether European Cultures are superior. For one reason I don't know all about other cultures. There are good and bad things about every culture.

 

I see evolution as simply just change. Not necessarily change for the better, but the ability to become something different to what it was previously. Many non-European cultures seem to want to stay locked in the same old traditions and rituals that they were thousands of years ago. Even when there is good reason to change, they are determined not to.

 

One thing I notice is that Europeans seem to be more open to change. If they go to another country with a different culture they will attempt to blend in and adopt a lot of that culture. Others, however go into other countries and expect to be able to live the same culture they always did and expect everyone to pander to them. In New Zealand, Muslims are a classic example. Same with Pacific Islanders.

 

Many people today believe we are in the end times. The end times is not a year or 2 years... many people interpret the end times to have started when Jesus came and to end when he returns. About Col. 1:23, Paul was talking about the goal of the gospel being preached to all nations, which is still taking place today. It's a progressive thing, which most Christians understand.

 

I disagree. If you look through Paul's writings there was a real sense of urgency there. It's a theme throughout his writings that Christ's return was eminent and he expected it to happen in his life time. If you take Col 1:23 at face value, it's pretty clear he's saying that the gospel HAS been preached. In his mind it had been accomplished. There's also another scripture where he makes the claim that they were spreading the gospel "throughout the world!" Deluded or not, he believed it was happening right then and there just as Jesus had wanted it. He obviously believed they had created the perfect conditions for Christ to return. Yes, Paul was an idiot! LOL. How can anyone take anything he say's seriously?

 

As a Christian I believed the same thing as you. You have to right? You have no other choice but to take it as a progressive thing. Because one of the major things in the Christian religion is that Christ is still yet to return. If he fails to return, then it proves that Christianity and the NT is wrong. To me Christ's promise to return is way past its use-by date. I no longer have to look at the bible with the mindset that Jesus return is yet to happen.

 

We could get into a lot more scriptures and discussion about Christ's return, but I don't think we want to get into that on this thread. Or perhaps not at all.

 

As for Jesus, Jesus entered a time period and culture where belief in God was normal and expected. The descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) had for thousands of years believed in One Supreme Being. Also, in their prophecies, the Messiah was promised. Jesus was not the only one who was considered the Messiah by people. Since before him and after him, there have been others considered the Messiah.

 

Oh for sure there have been many, but are you trying to say that because Christianity is the institution it is today, it means Jesus was the true Messiah and/or that it makes his prophecies divine?

 

I would expect the one true God to hold the dominent religion on the planet. He would not be one whose followers are slipping away in droves. He would be the one that stands up as being greater than all the others because... well because HE'S REAL! And he's loving just and merciful! I would expect followers to slip away if he was malevolent, incompetent or just plain indifferent... or even better, nonexistant! I would expect the other religions to be miniscule in comparison to Christianity. But no, we see about two or three dominent religions in the world and it very much matters which country you were born in as to what one you subscribe to. This demonstrates to me that mankind is wired in a way where there is a need for some higher power, so they conjure them up. It's only natural because we start out life with a God figure guiding us in the form of our parents. But when we become adults, for most of us, our parents cease to filll that role so we look elsewhere for a God figure, because it fills an inherent need. It also helps us feel better about our mortality if we can believe in a being that is looking out for us and has the whole world in his hand. It allows us to believe that death is not the end and that all our sacrifices and hardships won't be in vain.

 

I think Jesus knew full well that most of his followers would soon realise that a lot of what he preached just wasn't true and that he wasn't the Messiah. He knew he was mortal just like everyone else. He made an obvious prediction based on that so that he could somehow keep his integrity after he'd gone.

 

If you had done something great like William Wilberforce, would you have not seen that time as quite a waste of time?

 

Maybe not, but it depends what negative has come out of it. Mother Theresa was considered a saint by many, yet there was a dark side to her as well which didn't become known till afte her death. How much did the bad outweight the good? I guess we'll never know and likewise I don't know much about Wilberforce or what type of person he was behind the scenes. I don't know what harm he did in the name of religion.

 

I look back at my life and think yeah, there were probably many things I did as a Christian which was beneficial to people and maybe even myself. But I also see the harm that I could have unwittingly caused. Despite the good, if I could live life over again I would not have anything to do with religion.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Zaphod B

[pureinheart]

I have a few rambling thoughts on this, so take or leave it or skip it.

 

I will readily admit that I believe in a Higher Power purely our of necessity. I was an agnostic for many many many years. it wasn't until someone very dear to me passed away that I accepted any kind of Higher Power, and I did it because I refused to believe that I would never see him ever again. If anyone can show me some other belief system when I will be able to see loved ones again, I will gladly entertain it. So my belief is something that your son may find completely delusional, but I'm okay with that. I may be completely wrong, but let's all face it- there's really no proof either way. Just because I've never seen a God doesn't necessarily mean that he/she/it doesn't exist. Conversely, there are people who believe that God is everywhere- in the trees, the sky, in us. So who am I to say? And more importantly, what harm is there is believing? The only people that really know the truth are those that have already passed. This is why I never get fired up over people having different beliefs- I have no horse in the race, so I'm good with people believing what they want to believe as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

 

So my belief is that everyone that holds a particular belief/attitude does so because it serves them best. My father will most likely pass this week, but brings me comfort to think that I will see him again. That belief serves me best. People who are deeply passionate about something are so because it serves them. So- what need is being currently met by your son having what you feel is a disrespectful attitude? Is it a firm grasp of the unknown? Is it rebellion against something external? Is it something else? What is it? Figure out what need is being met by his disrespect and then you can more easily determine whether that attitude will change.

 

Another thought- faith is a belief not based on proof. Has your son ever believed in anything he cannot prove? Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? the Easter bunny? Perhaps if he can see faith on a personal level, his attitude may change towards it.

 

I am really sorry JT...much strength to all of you:(:(...

[denise_xo]

I think the kind of age your son is in is a time when you're striving to establish your identify, and then things tend to become a bit polarised When I was that age, people found their allegiances based on either religion or political cause/ affiliation. We were all pretty militant about our new found truths, and we chilled out as we grew up.

 

I guess the main point is just to keep reinforcing the issue of generally treating people with respect. There are tons of religious, political, etc opinions that I disagree strongly with and I have no idea how people come to believe in them or take them as 'truths' - but unless they treat me poorly or something along those lines, I will insist in showing them respect even though I may not agree with their opinions. Your son will grow up to find that the world is full of competing opinions and he will have to find a way of relating to those.