Relationship Counseling for A/EMR

[MissBee]

Miss Bee - your original post asked about those in an affair, while in the affair, whether they also got counseling. I answered in the affirmative. Our circumstances changed but the beginning of our therapy did not have him divorced or separated.

No the therapist does not disregard that one party is married just like other aspects of the relationship are not ignored. It is looked at based on the context of the relationship as well as looking at it in the bigger picture. A good therapist is not going to morally judge their clients and tell them what to do.

Therapy may have helped him make some decisions and move on by proxy of our counseling. For him, his biggest fear in divorce was his kids and his feelings of growing up with an absentee father. If the kids weren't there there wouldn't have been an affair and a much earlier divorce. But they were, he loves them, he feared for them and for their relationship.

 

I don't think moral judgment is what it's about. But whether or not psychologists, as professionals, not in their personal opinion based on their morals, believe affair situations are inherently problematic or not and whether their advice is more about changing that dynamic or changing it.

 

I'm not arguing with you about your situation btw. I appreciate your response esp as it relates to you answering why you guys went. It would be hard to go into every detail to ask what kinds of problems you guys went to your therapist with and what he/she said about it etc.

 

In any case based on other responses, heart seems to be the only other person who did this, and I guess in her case, he only went once as an "example" to her therapist and not because it was couple's counseling, and it seems like her therapist felt the whole A thing was a bad idea.

 

I can only extrapolate from the responses, here and my own hypothesis that not a lot of people get couple's counseling while in an A. And for how psychologists/therapists are trained to respond to such a situation, I probably would have to research that outside of LS...unless any professional therapists are on here who'd like to chime in about how they've been trained to view such situations.

[MissBee]

I waited to post on this until this evening when I could ask my s.i.l., who is a licensed psychiatrist regarding treating an affair couple. I thought she would bust a gut laughing! She stated that a true licensed counselor tries to extricate people from toxic relationships... not encourage them. And she had never seen a nurturing affair dynamic in 20 years of practice. I call bull to anyone who says otherwise.

 

That would have been my assumption...

 

I also would agree with that premise...and I guess that's what it boils down to. Whether professionally therapists view affair dynamics as just an alternative lifestyle that can be healthy or if they view it as inherently dysfunctional.

 

I am open to the idea that there may be a school of thought that sees it as healthy, but can't immediately think of any cases, where I've heard psychologists explaining it in that way. I've watched infidelity programs, specifically that show Unfaithful, on Discovery Health, where psychologists kind of chime in on the situations and make commentary based on their professional opinion, and most leaned on the side of viewing it as problematic and something that needed to be reworked, not accommodated.

 

But I'm gonna still look into it and see if I can read about case studies or professional schools of thought that feel differently.

[Got it]

I think you are going down a second line of thinking on this.

 

I don't think anyone is going to say it is the healthiest way to have a relationship(s).

 

I think a therapist is going to look at the whys and get the person to continue working through why this is their solution to issues. Absolutely for the MP they are lying to family and friends to that alone is going to have a negative impact with or without disclosure.

 

He and I were in therapy to work on our relationship, but like I have stated, our relationship was based on the premise we were both leaving our marriages. So part of therapy was working towards that.

 

Our therapist worked with him on his fears, the context of it, what it was giving him, what he was risking, etc and what did he want to do (each step of the way). At the beginning of therapy he was not decided what he was going to do. He knew, big picture, that he wasn't going to stay married forever, but the present day offered fears and obstacles that he wasn't sure how to overcome.

 

 

 

thomasb - I doubt that you would ever come on and say otherwise with or without a "SIL". You also missed the point. Shocker.

[Got it]

I would have told you this for free. Also, IMO it's awful that so-called therapy ($$$) is used in this manner.

 

The world advises people to seek counseling - too freely.

 

Much money involved incl that of raising insurance premiums.

 

Actually the cost of therapy is minimal in the raising cost of insurance. I am not sure your knowledge of health care, health care costs, but mental health benefits are a very small percent of the whole pie. It is the over use of emergency rooms, uninsured individuals, and the cost of prescription drugs/ patents, that are bigger contributors.

 

Why is that an awful way to use therapy? How should therapy be used? It seems that therapy helped the poster work through her thoughts and feelings in the relationship and move on. Is that the desired outcome thought by many of the posters here?

[beenburned]

halfofaheart,

 

Usually the WS is the only one that truly knows the real reason he won't leave the marriage, despite what he tells the OW/friends. Most of them want to save face with others and protect their image.

 

Example: After being in a very long term marriage, I now realize just how deep my H and his family worship money/possessions. Even if he had fallen in love with any of his OW, he would have never divorced simply because it would have KILLED him to divide any marital money or assets.(even though we BOTH had worked long and hard to achieve them)

 

Also as a response to the question asked in this thread about counseling for those in an affair:

 

As a long ago BW, it would have been a total dealbreaker for me if my H had attended counseling with his OW!

 

As a married person you should fix the marriage or get out, not drag out the misery for everyone involved.

[UpwardForward]

Actually the cost of therapy is minimal in the raising cost of insurance. I am not sure your knowledge of health care, health care costs, but mental health benefits are a very small percent of the whole pie. It is the over use of emergency rooms, uninsured individuals, and the cost of prescription drugs/ patents, that are bigger contributors.

 

Why is that an awful way to use therapy? How should therapy be used? It seems that therapy helped the poster work through her thoughts and feelings in the relationship and move on. Is that the desired outcome thought by many of the posters here?

 

If I had an affair w a MM - or anyone, and I felt incomplete or desolate - because the two of us are not of the same accord, why put this cost burden on health insurance.??

 

That $80. an hour (or whatever) is not a one time deal. Once people start delving into their childhoods, etc etc - it could take Years.

 

Was life more simple before intercourse before marriage?

Edited July 20, 2012 by UpwardForward

[Radagast]

She stated that a true licensed counselor tries to extricate people from toxic relationships... not encourage them.

 

Absolutely! That's why my (true, licensed, and good) counsellor was so supportive of me leaving my marriage, and me nurturing my relationship with my then-affair partner. He looked beyond labels at what was good for me, and what was in my best interests in the long-term as well as the short-term.

 

And she had never seen a nurturing affair dynamic in 20 years of practice.

 

Some people really need to get out more.

[thomasb]

"Some people really need to get out more.

"

 

Or at least some people need to get out more with truly educated professionals. And that would not be me... since I am one myself. I withheld judgement until I had spoken to someone who had credentials in that field.

An OW/OM would not be on insurance since they are not an insurable family member so that point is moot.

Edited July 20, 2012 by thomasb

[woinlove]

Originally Posted by Radagast

Some people really need to get out more.

 

Who really thinks an affair dynamic is healthy and nurturing (presumably for the 2 involved in the A)? Very few (anyone??) involved in an affair want to spend the rest of their life in an affair. Usually at least one of the APs wants either the marriage or the affair to end at some point, so it is a state they are working toward getting out of, rather than committing to it. Similarly, very few people actually enjoy deceiving their spouse and pretending to be in a monogamous M when they know the reality is very different (I'm not classifying EMRs that are out in the open, as in an open M, as affairs).

 

The affair may involve into an out in the open R with no deception or betrayal and become a state (maybe even an M) that both want to nuture and commit to. In that case, I expect the two would be happy to see the end of the affair -- in this case through the end of the former marriage(s) -- and to be free to marry each other if they wish.

[Owl]

The relationship can be healthy and nurturing even though it would be preferable the WS wasn't married.

 

I'd say from my viewpoint (which is the outside looking in, mind you), this sounds to me like "Yep, the brownies are delicious and nutritious, with the exception of a small amount of salmonella added in after baking".

 

It doesn't add up to me. I don't see how the relationship could possibly be healthy and nurturing for both parties in this kind of circumstance....especially not long term.

 

I would expect that a majority of relationships that start as affairs would benefit tremendously from professional assistance.

[UpwardForward]

Everyone has the choice on this. It's not cancer or a death of a loved one.

 

I'm against health insurance paying for deliberate sin. (psychiatrists)

[jwi71]

Actually I think counseling for AP's is a FANTASTIC idea.

 

Here, with a neutral, trained and experienced professional, the AP's can work together to improve their A. To help them, individually and as a couple, solve the problems which face them.

 

I think it would be VERY telling indeed.

 

I may have to start suggesting this to more OW. If there is an aspect of your A you are not happy about, seek "Affair Counseling" with your AP and maybe that counselor can help you solve the issue.

 

I wonder how many AP's would actually go though...

[woinlove]

 

I tend to agree with Got_it that all relationships would benefit from counseling.

 

I missed this point when Got_it made it, but why would all relationships benefit from counselling?

 

I can see all secret affairs benefiting from counselling as deception and betrayal are not things that make healthy people happy, but why all relationships? For couples who are happy and committed to each other, with shared values and good communication and R skills, why would it be beneficial to take time away from things they enjoy, shared activities, family, work, etc., to spend time with a paid professional who may not even be able to enhance their happiness and will use up time and money?

[MissBee]

I tried to research variations of healthy affairs, nurturing affairs, positive infidelity, positive affairs etc. Thus far I've come across one article discussing 6 types of affairs entitled: "Can Adultery Be Healthy? 6 Kinds of Sexual Affairs and How They Can Be Good for You"

 

Can Adultery Be Healthy? 6 Kinds of Sexual Affairs and How They Can Be Good for You | Sex & Relationships | AlterNet

 

The author, Douglas Labier Ph.D., does highlight how affairs can help someone. From the article the idea seems to be that an affair is a response to a problematic relationship and is used as a coping mechanism or catalyst to change, but it doesn't suggest that an affair itself is something that should last forever and thus couples should get counseling to continue the affair as an affair. It seems as though it is seen as a response to a problem, and then it helps one to either end or improve their primary relationship - a temporary problem solver and not simply a permanent solution that is a healthy choice to continue forever.

 

An excerpt:

 

Learning From Affairs

You might assume that you can isolate your affair from the rest of your life. Or, you might not give much thought to its consequences. Both are mistakes. If you're considering an affair or are in the midst of one, I suggest you consider the following:

 

• Some affairs are psychologically healthy. An affair can help leverage you out of a de-structive or deadened relationship that's beyond the point of renewal. The positive feelings of affirmation and restored vitality generated by an affair can activate the courage to leave a marriage when doing so is healthiest decision for both yourself and your partner. I've seen both men and women become psychologically healthier through an affair. It springboarded them into greater emotional honesty and mature action. Of course, you have to be honest with yourself, here, and not rationalize yourself into hav-ing the affair while postponing necessary action.

 

• There's always a reason for beginning an affair, and it relates to some issue in your existing relationship. It's far better to face and resolve that first. You don't just "find" yourself having an affair, or "end up" in bed with someone. It's your choice, but it can be beautifully rationalized. So take a look at what's missing or unfulfilling in your relationship, why that is, and whether you can -- or even want to -- do something about it. It's preferable to try renewing your relationship, or end it with mutual respect.

 

By acknowledging that an affair means you're living a lie in some form, you have a greater chance to deal with the emotional and practical consequences of the affair in a healthier way. And there are plenty of consequences -- for yourself, your children, your existing relationship. But if you fool yourself about the reasons for your affair and what it may set in motion, you can squander irreplaceable years, trapped within illusions and rationalizations. When it all comes crashing down, loneliness and emptiness may be all that remains. That's why I advocate awareness at the outset: You can become more conscious of your actions, and use that awareness to deal maturely with their consequences. Or yes, you can remain unconscious...but then you still have to deal with the consequences!

 

It would appear that, as a psychologist, if a couple in an affair came to him, he'd advocate awareness and for them to look at why they're in the affair and resolve those issues, versus holding the belief that the affair dynamic in itself is a healthy one and you can just talk about other issues as you continue the affair. The argument seems to be that the affair itself is part and parcel of an existing problem-a response to a problem and something that one needs to eventually graduate from as one becomes emotionally healthy. It suggests that if one stayed in an A forever, it would be a sign that one has not evolved and has never addressed their issues. It is not argued, especially not by me, that all marriages are healthy and that you can't have a better relationship with your affair partner---but from my opinion, and what this article suggests, it seems that you can indeed have a better relationship with your AP, but that better relationship seems to take the form of it graduating into a non-affair situation.

 

From this thread it would seem as though there is no example of a couple who went to counseling as a couple in the A and continued the A because that dynamic was great forever. The relationship itself continued, as with Got It and her partner, but it continued as a non-A relationship. Radagast has a better relationship with his former AP than his ex-wife, but that is former...it graduated from an A to an open dynamic. Perhaps that is the confusion? Conflating the relationship with the individual with the dynamic and structure of As. I do think there is a difference between the relationship being healthier or that individual being a better fit for you, and an A as a structure being healthy. I also don't believe (and the article states) that you can't really just ignore that it's an A and continue on with your life, omitting that part, and saying "I love him and her...they just happen to be married/committed elsewhere". Some do try to argue that that part is a minor inconvenience, but it seems that counselors don't look at it as a minor inconvenience but a huge part of what determines the sustainability and health of the relationship and individuals.

Edited July 21, 2012 by MissBee

[beenburned]

Miss Bee,

 

I enjoyed reading the article!

 

My favorite part was the last page titled "Learning from Affairs".

 

It summarized the importance of NOT being a conflict avoider and taking the necessary actions to make your life/marriage a healthy/happy place to be.

 

His example of the MM that had a 4 year affair, before becoming disillusioned with his OW and the affair , made me laugh.

 

He never told his wife about all the things he was unhappy about in their marriage, or tried to fix anything before resorting to an affair. He was a great example of a true conflict avoider!

 

I can't believe it took him 4 years to realize this! Duh!

[William]

Rather then moderate a bunch of regulars for all the off-topic banter in here, I'm going to lock this up and invite anyone who actually has experience with the topic to alert on this post and ask me to re-open the thread for their comments. That I had to read through this thread based on reports is fair warning to those posters who would otherwise right now be on moderation. The next time I have to do that, it will be automatic and swift.