For those who think BSs should be told the truth...

[Tenacity]

This is what we hear from most BS, that they want or wanted the truth so they could make decisions based on reality.

That may or may not be true here on LS, but I would argue that LS is not necessarily representative of all situations. For one thing, I would bet that there is bias regarding people who actually post versus those who don't (referred to as "publication bias" in the research world) meaning that BS who post here and say they want to know/wanted to know are more likely to post at all, compared with people who don't want to know.

 

Either way, it's not the point, however. The point is that in any individual situation/marriage, you can't know the dynamics (only what you've been told) of whether the BS really wants to know - or is better off knowing - or not. Just because some people think the BS 'should' know doesn't make it the right answer for everyone.

 

And really, let's be honest - I believe that most OW (or OM) don't have any altruistic reasons for telling the BS, but instead do it for personal reasons of their own.

 

That is why I think that only the WS should be the person to tell, or not tell, the BS. If he/she makes that decision to tell or not based on selfish reasons, then that is still his (or her - I don't mean to be gender-biased here) decision. At least in my case, it wasn't because I didn't want it "out in the open" for my own reasons, as was stated earlier as being "the most common reason" (why would I not want it out in the open?). I had no problems with her knowing.

 

I just don't think it is the OW's place to tell the BS. Whether or not she wants to know or has the right to know is irrelevant to that point.

[beenburned]

Sleepie's question was: Is it right for BS#1 to tell BS#2, when they find out about the affair?

[scatterd]

QUOTE]I have tried to talk to BS whilst my love affair with MM is still going on, usually when I wanted to end the limbo,however, she does not answer the phone. I have rang many times over a six month period, once checked she was in at the time{/QUOTE]

 

I often miss phone calls and I would not know who the OW would say I had got called. But I would want to know. Maybe he has deleted your # who knows.

[woinlove]

I just don't think it is the OW's place to tell the BS. Whether or not she wants to know or has the right to know is irrelevant to that point.

 

I don't agree with it not being the "OW's place to tell". I don't hesitate to tell the wife of a friend things we do together at work or socially when she wasn't there, and while an OW obviously has a different role than a friend, if she doesn't want to hide the relationship, she shouldn't. Some would argue it wasn't the OW's place to chose to have an A with a MM (assuming she did), but having done that, why not tell if she wants? Affairs (unlike most relationships) are kept secret for a practical reason -- so that the MM/MW can stay married and carry on the affair. But I don't feel anyone involved should feel compelled to keep the secret if they don't want to.

 

I think there are negatives and positives to the OW telling, but I would not say it is not "her place". I think she can do what she wants as far as telling whoever she wants about her own relationships with others, including her relationship with MM. If she is still active in the A and she tells either the BW or someone who might tell the BW, it does run the risk of ending the A and her relationship with MM, so she probably won't want to do that - but if she wanted to, I say, go ahead. I'm for more honesty and openness in these situations.

Edited July 21, 2012 by woinlove

[Tenacity]

Some would argue it wasn't the OW's place to chose to have an A with a MM (assuming she did), but having done that, why not tell if she wants?

 

Because two wrongs don't make a right. There are some circumstances and some marriages where the BS might be better off not knowing. Even if a particular person doesn't believe that to be true, it doesn't mean that it isn't true for some people in some marriages. No one can know the dynamics of what telling the W will accomplish.

 

I agree - it definitely wasn't the OW/OM's place to have an A.

 

I'm for more honesty and openness in these situations.

 

And that's your opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that opinion any more so than anyone else's. My point, however, was that your opinion that honesty and openness in other people's situations may not be THEIR preference.

 

I respect your opinion very much woinlove. I didn't for a second think my personal opinion on this topic would be popular, and that's okay.

[woinlove]

Because two wrongs don't make a right. There are some circumstances and some marriages where the BS might be better off not knowing. Even if a particular person doesn't believe that to be true, it doesn't mean that it isn't true for some people in some marriages. No one can know the dynamics of what telling the W will accomplish.

 

I don't follow the logic here. In some cases the BS will be better off knowing and will later say she is grateful she at least knows the truth and can made an informed decision. So then keeping quiet is 2 wrongs by your logic. You are saying you don't know what the specific situation is and better to be wrong for those who want to know than to be wrong for those who don't. Why? My view is guided by honesty and openness, but yours seems to say better to do what some people will want even if others would want differently? How did you choose which one gets what they want?

 

I am influenced by the one time I had to inform someone, a friend. I knew I could not look her in the eye and keep this secret from her. I think I would react the same with a daughter or son, a sibling, any good friend. This guides me together with the fact that those I am close to are like me in wanting to be as informed as possible, wanting truth rather than deception or illusion in our family life, and most of the BS on LS seem to be similar.

[woinlove]

Just chiming in with my 2 cents here, but your post brings up some thoughts of my own.

 

I think the reason most ow stay quite is because they have bought into whatever reasons that mm tells them that it must remain a secret.

 

For most ow it's self serving not to tell because they don't want to risk losing the mm nor do they wish to open themselves up to possible consequences that may befall themselves.

 

Yes, I think if one only looks from the OW perspective it would often serve her interests best not to tell -- although losing the MM or having consequences can actually be a positive step for an individual, but typically that is not how it appears at the time.

[Tenacity]

You are saying you don't know what the specific situation is and better to be wrong for those who want to know than to be wrong for those who don't. Why? My view is guided by honesty and openness, but yours seems to say better to do what some people will want even if others would want differently? How did you choose which one gets what they want?

 

No. All I am saying is that I do not believe it is the OW's job to be the one to inform the BS, because the OW can't know the situation. The WS better knows the situation. Probably a friend would as well, or a mother. So the OW/OM should stay out of it. It's not about "who gets what they want". Why is it OW's job to give the BS "what they want"?

 

I actually know of a case where the AP, immediately after extricating herself from the virtual pavement after being thrown under the virtual bus by the MM, called the W and told her "all" and also forwarded several very telling e-mails. The W committed suicide later that night. Did the AP do the "right" thing in assuming that the W wanted to know? Did the W kill herself because she didn't want to know or because her H cheated on her? Would she have still killed herself if someone else (her H, a friend, someone handling it differently) instead told her? Who knows. But you can't un-ring a bell.

 

I don't believe in most cases that the OW/OM tells for altruistic reasons really meant to help the BS. I don't believe that the BS ALWAYS ALWAYS is better off knowing, even if some other people think honestly and openness is always, always better for everyone.

 

My point is completely being missed, so I'll bow out now.

[woinlove]

No. All I am saying is that I do not believe it is the OW's job to be the one to inform the BS, because the OW can't know the situation. The WS better knows the situation. Probably a friend would as well, or a mother. So the OW/OM should stay out of it. It's not about "who gets what they want". Why is it OW's job to give the BS "what they want"?

 

I actually know of a case where the AP, immediately after extricating herself from the virtual pavement after being thrown under the virtual bus by the MM, called the W and told her "all" and also forwarded several very telling e-mails. The W committed suicide later that night. Did the AP do the "right" thing in assuming that the W wanted to know? Did the W kill herself because she didn't want to know or because her H cheated on her? Would she have still killed herself if someone else (her H, a friend, someone handling it differently) instead told her? Who knows. But you can't un-ring a bell.

 

I don't believe in most cases that the OW/OM tells for altruistic reasons really meant to help the BS. I don't believe that the BS ALWAYS ALWAYS is better off knowing, even if some other people think honestly and openness is always, always better for everyone.

 

My point is completely being missed, so I'll bow out now.

 

I agree it is not the OW's job; I don't think she has to tell, but I also don't think she should not tell, that it is not her place. I am giving arguments toward telling for those who value honesty and openness and want to treat the BW with respect and compassion. In many cases, that would involve telling. On the other hand, if one is driven by revenge, rather than compassion, not only is one likely to tell the BS in a particularly hurtful way, but that motivation is likely to come back and make the OW feel bad.

 

Sadly, suicides (and murders) do sometimes happen in affairs. Again, I would argue kindness, respect and honesty are better from the beginning, but that is a moot point once we are discussing the fallout of an affair.

[mercy]

The OW called me, she was cruel. I did a search of the number and called her h, he answered, and the only words I spoke was to say my name, he said, are you ok, such a kind voice. When he said that, the truth, realization set in and I just started to cry, he told me to hang up and he'd call me back in an hour.

 

I will always side with truth, no matter how it is delivered. My heart was going to be broke either way.

[Spark1111]

No. All I am saying is that I do not believe it is the OW's job to be the one to inform the BS, because the OW can't know the situation. The WS better knows the situation. Probably a friend would as well, or a mother. So the OW/OM should stay out of it. It's not about "who gets what they want". Why is it OW's job to give the BS "what they want"?

 

I actually know of a case where the AP, immediately after extricating herself from the virtual pavement after being thrown under the virtual bus by the MM, called the W and told her "all" and also forwarded several very telling e-mails. The W committed suicide later that night. Did the AP do the "right" thing in assuming that the W wanted to know? Did the W kill herself because she didn't want to know or because her H cheated on her? Would she have still killed herself if someone else (her H, a friend, someone handling it differently) instead told her? Who knows. But you can't un-ring a bell.

 

I don't believe in most cases that the OW/OM tells for altruistic reasons really meant to help the BS. I don't believe that the BS ALWAYS ALWAYS is better off knowing, even if some other people think honestly and openness is always, always better for everyone.

 

My point is completely being missed, so I'll bow out now.

 

I get your point.

 

But then who gets to decide who or what will be told to the BS?

 

If you think the WS will inform one day, "Hey, honey I've been banging my paramour behind your back every chance I get! Aren't you happy for me?"

 

Well, that is the most ludicrous assumption I have ever heard anywhere. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, unless you are that very rare exit affair.

 

The betrayal is in the ACTIONS, not in the telling of them.

 

And if you do not understand that, while it may not be your marriage, you are just as culpable as the spouse, no amount of debate will ever change your ethical or moral viewpoint.

 

With that being said, if one BS spouse knows, I hope they have the courage to inform the other BS. Then, everyone is on the same page making informed choices regarding their marriage and their future.

 

Sounds fair enough to me.

[Tenacity]

I get your point.

Well, that is the most ludicrous assumption I have ever heard anywhere. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, unless you are that very rare exit affair.

 

It happened to me. And no, it wasn't an 'exit affair'. He is still married, and he told her after breaking up with me.

 

Again with the "I know how it is in every single case" assumptions. You can't know how often this situation actually happens.

[jwi71]

No. All I am saying is that I do not believe it is the OW's job to be the one to inform the BS, because the OW can't know the situation.

 

This can only be known, to a degree, between the H and W. And even that is suspect if we wish to presume the W has no idea the A is ongoing. Typically, the only party who knows the state of things ISNT the M per se (H and W) but the WS.

 

And I thinks its safe to assume the WS isn't telling.

 

This often comes up here...its not the first nor last time a thread of "tell the BS" has appeared. I have noticed though:

 

By and large, OW/WS do NOT wish to tell.

BS wish to be told.

 

An interesting dichotomy but not one that should be terribly hard to explain.

 

Bad actors wish to have bad actions hidden.

 

So the OW/OM should stay out of it.

 

Except its a little late for that:) . The OW has accepted the invitation INTO the M and as such becomes PART of the M - the third player. Now that the M is composed of three, each owes to the others the truth just as if the M was of two. And since we already KNOW that one in the M (the WS) isnt telling, the duty to the truth falls on the AP.

 

Its very much like when, as a child, my friends and I were playing football. In this game we accidentally broke a window by setting up the field goal posts in front of said window (yeah, I know dumb huh). Even though I did not kick the ball, I was still required to pay MY portion by the mere fact I was a participant in the game that created that circumstance. As player, it was my responsibility to own the outcome...win, lose or broken window.

 

This is no different.

 

I actually know of a case where the AP, immediately after extricating herself from the virtual pavement after being thrown under the virtual bus by the MM, called the W and told her "all" and also forwarded several very telling e-mails. The W committed suicide later that night. Did the AP do the "right" thing in assuming that the W wanted to know? Did the W kill herself because she didn't want to know or because her H cheated on her? Would she have still killed herself if someone else (her H, a friend, someone handling it differently) instead told her? Who knows. But you can't un-ring a bell.

 

The AP bears some responsibility of the outcome. The outcome, however tragic, was brought about by events that the WS and AP knew would cause harm - the degree of which is unknowable.

 

Now, having said that, the BS must also own HER actions. She, no one else, committed suicide. This is not a normal outcome. Is that outcome possible - clearly it is.

 

 

I don't believe in most cases that the OW/OM tells for altruistic reasons really meant to help the BS. I don't believe that the BS ALWAYS ALWAYS is better off knowing, even if some other people think honestly and openness is always, always better for everyone.

 

I'm inclined to disagree.

We can only live truly authentic lives with the truth. Once presented with the truth we have to process and make choices. We all know and do this.

Would you, on the eve of buying a house, wish to know your H's boss was laying him the day after closing? Of course you would.

 

I hope you understand the parallel I'm trying to make (and I know its not a perfect analogy)...a third party has very important information that YOU deserve to know...would you like to know?

 

My point is completely being missed, so I'll bow out now.

 

No it isn't.

You are saying that because we do not the truth of the "home" situation we cannot judge if telling is beneficial or harmful and that unknown should stay our hand - the outcome of telling may be far worse than not telling.

 

There is no answer to this.

 

As such, we can only go by what we as individuals would do (or wish to do) in that circumstance.

 

Yet, as has been pointed out before...most BS, here and elsewhere, WANT to know.

 

I happen to actually agree with you - to a degree- on disclosure.

The A should NOT be disclosed if D is settled, down and decided. That would just be cruel.

The A should NOT be disclosed if one party may harm others or themselves. And when I say "may"...I mean the party with the information has 1st hand knowledge that such would be a reasonable result. You know what I mean.

 

Otherwise, I think the BS has a RIGHT to know and the AP has a responsibility to tell.

[woinlove]

It happened to me. And no, it wasn't an 'exit affair'. He is still married, and he told her after breaking up with me.

 

Again with the "I know how it is in every single case" assumptions. You can't know how often this situation actually happens.

 

Would you have, or did you, advise MM to tell his W? Did you (or MM) think she wanted to know even before she was told?

[Tenacity]

Would you have, or did you, advise MM to tell his W? Did you (or MM) think she wanted to know even before she was told?

 

I told him that I thought he should tell her. I told him that I would talk to her afterwards if she wanted to talk to me or ask questions (she did, and we did have a conversation).

 

He wasn't sure whether it would be worse to tell or not tell, given that we both knew it was completely over and he knew it would never happen again. I felt that he was the one who should make the decision as to what would be best for her. We had already both hurt her enough, and we both regretted it.

 

However much I don't respect her as a person (nothing to do with the A), I completely regret my role in the A, my selfishness in being intimate with her H behind her back, and how I hurt her. And I told her so. There is no excuse for what I did, and I told her that too.

[Tenacity]

Bad actors wish to have bad actions hidden.

 

Not always.

[BetrayedH]

I just don't think it is the OW's place to tell the BS. Whether or not she wants to know or has the right to know is irrelevant to that point.

 

I think the BS has a right to know and whether or not the OW thinks it's her place is what is irrelevant.

 

I do find it interesting how BSs somewhat consistently support the "right to know" view and the WS/OM/OW somewhat consistently represent the "don't cause more pain" or "it's not my place" view.

 

Personally, I would want to know the truth (and still do) regardless of who told me or what their motivation was course, I am a BS. You might say I am biased. Or perhaps the person in my position is the only one that is NOT biased. Just sayin'.

[Tenacity]

You know - given that several people here mentioned that the opinion of the OW is generally not to tell the BS, it's interesting that not one single person on this thread has agreed with what I have said.

 

It was never my intent to be argumentative or get into a debate; I just wanted to offer my viewpoint and my thoughts behind it. I feel ganged-up on, though, as clearly my approach for not telling the BS must be wrong and it must be because I was selfish and wanted to hide my terrible actions.

 

I decided to come back here to LS after a long hiatus to broach what I knew would be a controversial subject, that of remaining close friends (and nothing else) with the ex-MM. I knew I would get beat up, and I did. However, what I did with that was to think about what was said to me and come to the realization that - at least for ex-MM - this is still probably an EA. Even though he compartmentalizes things such as justifying his lines in the sand of no flirting, no affection, no physical contact, etc, and therefore doesn't view it as an EA, he is still getting something from me that he isn't getting in his M. So I went NC several days ago.

 

I do value the advice of people on this forum, even if I often feel it is laced with some bitterness (understandable) and even if I don't always agree with others who are very black and white in their beliefs.

 

Really, this response from Spark I did not feel was deserved: "The betrayal is in the ACTIONS, not in the telling of them. And if you do not understand that, while it may not be your marriage, you are just as culpable as the spouse, no amount of debate will ever change your ethical or moral viewpoint."

 

When did I ever say I did not accept complete culpability for my ACTIONS? When did I ever state that my desire not to be the one to tell the BS was anything but my own opinion and offer my own reasons for it? Why assume that I am a terrible person who does things for selfish reasons?

 

But what I received in response (repeatedly) were more statements about how the OW has only selfish reasons for not wanting to tell. "Bad actors wish to have bad actions hidden". Why say something like that to me, when I repeatedly stated that I was more than okay with my (reprehensible) actions being known?

 

I think it is best that I stop posting on this forum. It makes me sad, as there are many here who have propped me up and probably literally saved my life during the time when I was going through the mess with the A and ending it. For those of you - please know how much I appreciate it. I was only hoping to offer something back but that doesn't seem to be happening.

 

For what it's worth, to those who seem to believe that I am still a selfish woman who wants to justify her actions - there is nothing I regret more than the terrible decisions and choices I made, and the hurt that I caused to innocent people. Nothing.

[mercy]

You know - given that several people here mentioned that the opinion of the OW is generally not to tell the BS, it's interesting that not one single person on this thread has agreed with what I have said.

 

 

I never find it interesting when people don't agree with me, I find it shocking!

[MissBee]

...does this also apply to revealing the info if the other MM/MW's BS would find out, too?

 

I'm curious. Seems to be generally thought that the OW/OM should never go to the MM/MW's BS and spill it all out.

 

But if two married people have an A, and one of them confesses/reveals to their BS, almost certainly the other BS in the event will find out the information, too. Most likely because BS #1 will go straight to BS #2.

 

So isn't that kind of the same thing? Or, because they're both betrayed spouses, they get a pass on the whole spilling secrets thing?

 

I think a betrayed spouse spilling the beans to another betrayed spouse is different than an OW/OM being the one to ring up the BS. I find the latter to be a lot more questionable, whereas both the BSs in the former case are in the same boat and on the same "team" so to speak.

 

If my spouse was cheating on me with a married person, I'd indeed inform that married person's spouse that their spouse has been in an A with mine.

 

@Tenacity If my spouse was cheating on me with an OW who was fully aware that he was married, and she decides for whatever reason to end it or he dumps her and she calls me, I'd be LIVID! I really would not see it as her being so wonderful and doing a great thing "for me". Knowing is better than not knowing of course, so if I had to hear it from her, so be it. But I can tell you it would not be my preference. I'd rather find out on my own, through my spouse or even a friend or family member. The OW spilling the beans would probably make things a lot lot worse in terms of adding insult to injury for me.

Edited July 21, 2012 by MissBee

[sleepie]

I didn't mean this thread to get controversial or for anyone to feel hurt by it. I was merely curious about opinions, because one reason I keep my A a secret is because I know my H would tell my MMs W. It's one thing to destroy my M, it's another to destroy hers. And yes, I realize my actions have already destroyed hers to an extent. But now that it's over, if both MM and I focus totally on our separate Ms, I'm not sure it's my place to insert myself into their lives again.

 

And she may be like my H. He doesn't want to know.

[datura_noir]

I really think camaraderie and info exchange between the mutual BS is a good thing. it can lead to a more truthful existence. And it gives one the advantage, which is so hard to expect in the early days of a betrayal. One feels as if a whole life is being played out to their dis-advantage right before their eyes. It really hurts. whatever gives the BS power and knowledge is a good thing. It may embarrass or put the AP in a bad position, but really, is there any worse position than being the object of betrayal?

[beenburned]

sleepie,

 

I disagree with your theory and I'll explain why.

 

My H didn't get caught until his 3rd affair. Now he knew all along that I never wanted to be married to someone that would cheat on me. He didn't care, as long as he got away with it.

 

Only when I found out the truth, was my life going to be what I wanted.

 

Nobody has the right to decide how I want to live my life except me!

 

His secrets remained hidden for the purpose of him controlling my life for his own selfish reasons. He never had my best interests at heart.

[sleepie]

Oh, I understand that some BSs want to know. Honestly, were I a BS, I would surely want to know.

 

But my H has made it clear to me--in words and actions--that he wouldn't want to know if I had an EA. (He WOULD want to know about a PA.) So there are SOME spouses who prefer ignorance.

[Spark1111]

I have been reading here for more than 4.5 years, and I cannot recall a time where the WS has come home and confessed....once, maybe twice, that they were in an affair.

 

C,mon! Maybe 98% of the time, it was they were discovered by the BS in some stupid act of either leaving the IMs up, the cell phone lying around or the emails made there way up to the home screen.

 

Ok, and Tenacity, this wasn't about you although I have read your threads and have compassion for you!

 

My analogy: I run over your puppy. the one you love but is a pain in the butt at the same time, and I really do not care. I keep driving.

 

Or, I run over your puppy, feel horrible, remorseful, guilty, ashamed, but I do not try to reach out to you. You can remain anxious, worrying, filled with doubt and confusion.

 

Or, I run over your puppy, feel remorseful, filled with guilt, and make every human effort to contact you and tell you what I did and how it happened. I will even drive it to the vet, in order to give you peace of mind. you can even meet me there, and I will tell you what happened to the best of my ability.

 

Should the puppy have gotten away? Of course not. Should the puppy have ventured out of my yard without me knowing? No. I am to blame for that. Yes, of course.

 

But, you, or anyone else, who saw or knew my puppy was out or my perview, my backyard, or my knowledge of it's whereabouts....yes, I hold you responsible to WHAT DEGREE you felt accountable.

 

I am an animal lover, trying to make an analogy of what it feels to be a BS in the dark, and maybe I MISSED the mark.

 

Does anyone get this feeling, besides BSs?