Do Morals Matter Anymore...

[cms2012]

Someone called me out...with how I stated "I was open and non-judging..." and that is true but I am engulfed by so many emotions I'm all over the place with this....and countered opinions to try to better understand them.

 

You don't know me, you don't know my marriage, and I don't know you, so you should take what I say with a grain of salt as I will of what all of you said.

 

I would do anything in the world to not be in this situation...

I feel foolish, stupid and naive for buying into what society puts out that 'a happily ever after life' in marriage really exists for us all....that I believed my husband, my love, the man I gave everything to, would be true to us, and true to his own words...no matter what...

I am angered that a mans need for physical connection and a woman's need for emotional connection aren't valued or viewed to the same degree...for years I endured emotional neglect (or abuse)...which is something I realize I'll need therapy for for years to come...

It pisses me off how we can preach our versions of experiences and it not have any relevance to any other party involved - all experiences are unique to those individuals and that's that....

I am saddened as I have a seven year old boy...who has to live this out with us...who deserves SO MUCH more...and the one thing I had strivee for with a partner who was so disengaged...

That I'm so disillusioned by all of it!

 

I was raised Catholic, but not devout, but seriously Pre-Cana classes need to provide bulleted list of what MARRIAGE VOWS means, as it seems we all have our own ideals on this...

 

I entered this marriage with true love in my heart, in our troubled years I stated how I've never felt so neglected and unloved by someone in all my relationships prior, I asked/begged/pleaded for us to try to find a way to connect...and he withdrew....

 

I have nothing more to say...people base their experiences from their own and their opinions. My parents were married for 40 years, (my dad is now a widow), their marriage was private, but from what we did see, he doted on her and in turn...I'm sure she returned the same. All I wanted was a small dose of 'Happy Wife / Happy Life'...but due to SO MANY underlining issues and me picking up where he left off...resentment set in. And his lack of forgiveness killed us.

 

You can comment, I'll read it...and hopefully overtime I'll come to better understand all views. But there's something off here and that will be my journey to make sense of how it effects me..

 

Peace Out - C

[Steadfast]

It pisses me off how we can preach our versions of experiences and it not have any relevance to any other party involved - all experiences are unique to those individuals and that's that....

 

Then why post here? My hunch is that some of these responses hit closer to home than you're comfortable with. Most here respond knowing we're reading one side of the story. Few believe "I'm all good, they're all bad!"

 

Sorry.

 

Experiences are unique to each individual, but human nature isn't.

 

Fact: Separation is a poor tool for the process of reconciliation. Fact: Your husband shouldn't have taken a lover until you were divorced. Fact: When a woman leaves a man, the overwhelming percentage don't return. Fact: Not counting abuse, people don't leave people they're in love with. Fact: Control struggles and manipulation end as many marriages as infidelity.

 

You aren't the first person to post and not get the reaction you expected. You have little, or nothing to teach anyone here. Better for you to listen.

[trippi1432]

Personally, I feel the injustice was that CMS did not even get a chance to really offer her side of the story, other than she left the home. Men here tend to get the advice to get themselves back home to protect their assets as much as "try" to work on the marriage.

 

Is separation really a poor tool for the process of reconciliation? If both parties are hot-headed and cannot live in the same house without repeating the same mistakes, I would have to disagree. In the case of abuse, yes, separation is definitely needed....however abuse is more than just physical, it can be mental, it can be verbal, it can be emotional.

 

Where I feel it's about time our society accepts that just like men have that *physical need* woman have an *emotional need* that should be honored, catered too, and accepted so to better explain our emotionally driven choices. Woman have learned to 'lay ourselves down' for the betterment of our marriages, well then ya know what....instead of become more of a jerk, try showing your wife a little more sensitivity....can you imagine how many marriages could be saved.....It's unreal to me. But wait that's viewed as weak...right?

 

I truly did my best to embrace my marriage, and remained faithful even though I default to my 'independent' ways of coping. I realize that many marriages overcome this but then what is marriage if can't be a faithful commitment...right now I just don't get that...

 

I could have written this myself almost 3 years ago. I would surmise that her independent ways of coping meant that she needed to find her own balance, sense of center as it wasn't happening at home. Did she have an affair, did she leave for someone else....guess we will never know as she was called out to be an evil woman who deserved her husband stepping out on her because she took away physical intimacy??? Sorry, but this goes way more dysfunctional than Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus folks.

 

Controlled separation agreement: Controlled separation is a new approach to dealing with marital problems that has grown in popularity over the last few years. The ultimate goal of controlled separation is to save the marriage by working with a counselor by putting together a separation agreement with specific guidelines.

 

Controlled separation allows couples who are experiencing problems to live separately and, at the same time negotiate and work toward finding solutions to the marital problems. It has been found to be successful when one spouse was adamant about divorcing. Putting distance between the spouses and individual work with a counselor helps spouses see things from a different perspective.

 

What does it do, with counseling being a part of the mix?:

 

• Puts a stop to the fighting.
  
• Gives each spouse the space needed to cool off.
  
• Keeps the spouses from acting on impulse.
  
• Spouses get to experiment with living alone and having more freedom.
  
• A chance to grow and assess your role in the marital problems.
  
• A true test of how you feel about your partner once you are not seeing them regularly.
  
• If the couple does not reconcile it gives them a chance to prepare of an amicable divorce.

 

Now, if LS'rs had been asking the right questions, they would have asked....what was the time frame, when he told you back in May that a divorce was inevitable, do you think he was seeing someone else? What was happening in counseling, how was the counseling going. Did he understand your feelings that you felt neglected, how did he react? Did you understand his feelings, did either of you ever come to any conclusions that could have saved the marriage?

 

I'll just say this: Control is a fallacy, if you give up control willingly....that's on you. If you take it from someone else, they allowed it, and when they take it back, respect it. Oxymoron, yes.

 

My apologies to you CMS that you have not been allowed to even present your side of the story without being beaten into submission. Do you have a right to be angry, yes you do.

[Woggle]

This is why I say that women should never mention the word seperate unless she truly is done because once a man has it in his head that she wants to leave him that is it.

[trippi1432]

This is why I say that women should never mention the word seperate unless she truly is done because once a man has it in his head that she wants to leave him that is it.

 

Actually, that goes both ways....regardless of gender.

[Woggle]

Actually, that goes both ways....regardless of gender.

 

This is true but men know from experience that 9 times out of 10 it is downhill once a woman gets those seperation feelings inside her.

[trippi1432]

This is true but men know from experience that 9 times out of 10 it is downhill once a woman gets those seperation feelings inside her.

 

Then 9 out of 10 times when a man says it he's already traded you for a bubble-gum chewing trollop?

[Woggle]

Then 9 out of 10 times when a man says it he's already traded you for a bubble-gum chewing trollop?

 

Very true but most women would not be expected to just sit around and wait while a man decides what he wants like the OP is expecting her husband to.

[trippi1432]

Most women who leave don't ask for a controlled separation agreement with counseling and established timeline to work on their marriage either...like you said, when they are done, they are done...and I suppose typically moving on to better things. Again, will never know how this OP's story was...she was judged before she got a chance to tell it.

[Woggle]

Most women who leave don't ask for a controlled separation agreement with counseling and established timeline to work on their marriage either...like you said, when they are done, they are done...and I suppose typically moving on to better things. Again, will never know how this OP's story was...she was judged before she got a chance to tell it.

 

I think some of the guys were injecting their personal experience into it but I do think that some women will leave a man and be as cold as can be whenever he tries to make it work then when he finally moves on and find somebody else she gets all hurt about it. Not saying the OP has done this but it is a common enough story that men just roll their eyes when a woman gets hurt over this.

 

If a woman doesn't want a man anymore he has the right to move on. Also some of these controlled seperations and requests for counseling are just so a woman can buy some time to get the legal ducks in a row.

 

As unfair as it is the men are imagining themselves in her husband's shoes.

[standtall]

Again, will never know how this OP's story was...she was judged before she got a chance to tell it.

 

I disagree, she had many chances too, and could have easily posted here to explain it all, but choose not to. Her choice, just like her unilateral choice to move out.

[Steadfast]

Most women who leave don't ask for a controlled separation agreement with counseling and established timeline to work on their marriage either...like you said, when they are done, they are done...and I suppose typically moving on to better things. Again, will never know how this OP's story was...she was judged before she got a chance to tell it.

 

Trippi, you know I'm down with your insights but I'll disagree here. This OP was at best vague or worse, downright secretive. Add in defensive too. Just the same, I'll trust your instincts if you think she got hammered before she was able to warm up and tell her story. OP, if you're reading, I'll listen to it.

 

Moreover, I cannot get on board with 'controlled separation' either, although you make some valid points. I think it's a failed concept unless the parties involved closely follow the textbook script. More than anything, we learn by doing and living apart is not applicable practice for marriage.

 

All my opinion of course. As is the fact that I'm very soured on the marriage counseling scene. With all due respect, I believe we're over-emphasizing the therapy game and over-complicating life and love. At best, the MC route is a crap shoot and frankly, that's just not good enough.

[Guitarjeff]

Personally, I feel the injustice was that CMS did not even get a chance to really offer her side of the story, other than she left the home.

 

She didn't stop at telling us she only left the home. She informed us that she was "Semi Happy", she informed us that her husband didn't want her to leave, she informed us that she gave no definite amount of time for her to decide her feelings, and then when she did explain more it looked more and more like this was the "I'm bored and my husband doesn't excite me enough and I think the grass would be greener on the other side of the fence. Here's one of her quotes.

 

"There is so much 'more' that is needed to make a marriage a truly successful business venture. And just as in any successful business you need to learn and grow, and do new things to improve. Being stagnant and semi-happy is just existing in life. And that is what I couldn't do and thought I could jolt him to see that in some way.."

 

How is this not giving her side? And it appears like she is simply bored when you read between the lines, and that he is satisfied with the way things are.

 

Another Quote

 

"After 9 years of marriage, 12 years of being together we kept hitting that same wall. Yes, I could've 'done my wifely duties' and after my son was of age in that 20-25 year point, I could move on (another disheartening trend), but that isn't what I wanted to do."

 

She says she could have just continued with the wifely duties? You mean a married person should do anything else? Then she tells us she didn't "WANT" to do that.

 

Then this.

"We had sat at the T-Intersection for years...he admits, he kind of was just accepting this as is...and I couldn't, I wanted more from us and I felt our marriage and family life deserved that."

 

He admits he accepted this? You mean he says he is happy in the marriage and thinks they have a good family, and she doesn't and is bored, that's what this looks VERY MUCH LIKE. Then she says she wants for them THEM and the family, so she leaves and cuts off intimacy with no definite time table? And you say she has been judged before she had a chance to tell her side? I say hogwash. I can easily read between these lines, and you don't leave your home, get an apartment and start living single and tell the husband you are working on your marriage together. That's not how it works accept for counselors making money who want to keep the customers coming to the office.

 

 

 

 

"Men here tend to get the advice to get themselves back home to protect their assets as much as "try" to work on the marriage. "

 

And they also get the truth that most of the time men hold on while a wife does the "Love you but not in love", "Need to move out to find myself" stuff only to be crushed when they realize that have been hanging on only to be plan B while the wife sets up her new life with him as the safety net.

 

"Is separation really a poor tool for the process of reconciliation? If both parties are hot-headed and cannot live in the same house without repeating the same mistakes, I would have to disagree."

 

Sorry, but that's a crock of BS. When one partner is happy and doesn't want to part, it does them no good at all, especially since one of the spouses can simply say I am not satisfied no matter what the other spouse tries to do because they are simply bored and want to be free. When these spouses want to be free they are determined to do it so nothing the other spouse does will satisfy them. I claim that the chances of CMS ever moving back in were extremely low and I think you know this.

 

 

 

 

" In the case of abuse, yes, separation is definitely needed....however abuse is more than just physical, it can be mental, it can be verbal, it can be emotional."

 

Yep, it can be anything the bored person wants it to be, and it can cover any situation and is a perfect excuse when you are determined to be free and single because you can always claim that the other spouse hasn't done enough to fix it. CMS clearly saqid she was "SEMI HAPPY" and that her husband didn't want the split. What does that sound like to you? It sounds like CMS was bored, feeling in a rut and wants to be single and free again so she figured she would move out and test the waters and the hubby would hang on and be the safety net in case she decided it was too deep out in those waters.

 

 

 

"I could have written this myself almost 3 years ago. I would surmise that her independent ways of coping meant that she needed to find her own balance, sense of center as it wasn't happening at home."

 

She said that her FAMILY deserved to find IT'S BALANCE, remember, she was doing this for HER FAMILY and MARRIAGE, TOGETHER. Now it's about "her own" balance? Sorry, but you don't work on the marriage and family by taking off and getting an apartment on your own. But you do JUST THAT when you are bored and want to be free and test the waters because you are considering divorcing for that freedom. Then getting an apartment alone as a separation is definitely called for, isn't it? You tell me which one of our scenarios sounds more like the real truth.

 

Your theory

 

It's all about CMS thinking of her family and marriage and their needs, so she gets an partment and moves out and cuts off intimacy with her husband and give no definite time table for this experiment and the other half, the husband doesn't want her to leave and is satisfied with the marriage, but she is doing it for THEM.

 

My Theory

 

CMS is bored, "SEMI HAPPY" and that's good enough for the husband but she wants more excitement for HERSELF and so against her husband's wishes she considers breaking the family up because she is wanting to possibly be free, so she gets an apartment and moves out to test the waters and keeps her husband on the side as a safety net. This is not about what she thinks her marriage and family deserves, this is about what she thinks she deserves and she is considering breaking her marriage and family up to get it.

 

Now, tell me which scenario sounds more reasonable in this case. I am not saying she should stay in a marriage she is unhappy in. I am saying that we always see these head games and excuses. It's unreal how common it is for the bored spouse to save face by saying "Hey, I'm moving out and getting an apartment and cutting off our intimacy and I'm doing it because I'm trying to help out marriage and family because our marriage and family deserve better, so this sin't about me being bored and weanting to be free, I'm actually sacrificing for my marriage and family by moving out agains your wishes and giving no time table for a return.

 

Sorry, but I think my explanation is TEN TIMES more realistic and closer to the truth here.

 

 

 

 

 

"Did she have an affair, did she leave for someone else....guess we will never know as she was called out to be an evil woman who deserved her husband stepping out on her because she took away physical intimacy???"

 

Don't forget she moved out, and yep, you cut off a part of marriage that helps balance and make your marriage a partnership you are going to have a tough time making anyone believe you are doing it because you are working on the marriage together. I don't even believe you believe this stuff.

 

 

 

"Controlled separation agreement: Controlled separation is a new approach to dealing with marital problems that has grown in popularity over the last few years."

 

Laughable. One spouse almost always does not want separation and doesn't think the marriage is bad enough to do it. Most of the time they have no choice bit there's nothing they can do about it so they hang on, usually to their severe detriment. And the counselors continue to make their money even after the marriage has basically broken up with them not even living together anymore. Sounds like the counselors found themselves a new way to keep those sessions rolling in, eh? Controlled separation, indeed. The spouse that doesn't want his marriage in separation doesn't have any control, no do they?

 

 

 

"The ultimate goal of controlled separation is to save the marriage by working with a counselor by putting together a separation agreement with specific guidelines."

Translation: Keep the sessions coming and the payments to the counselor going even after the marriage has split up and the bored spouse has already got an apartment to see if they want to be free.

 

"Controlled separation allows couples who are experiencing problems to live separately and, at the same time negotiate and work toward finding solutions to the marital problems. It has been found to be successful when one spouse was adamant about divorcing. Putting distance between the spouses and individual work with a counselor helps spouses see things from a different perspective."

 

And it also keeps the counselors session fees rolling in, though I guess that's just mere coincidence, eh?

"What does it do, with counseling being a part of the mix?:

• Puts a stop to the fighting."
  

One spouse doesn't feel the fighting is bad enough to separate.

 

 

• "Gives each spouse the space needed to cool off."
  

One spouse doesn't feel they need the space to cool off, they feel they should be working on the marriage together, in the same home, and not have a massive part of their marriage, intimacy, cut off and thrown out of the equation.

 

 

• "Keeps the spouses from acting on impulse."
  

One spouse feels that the decision to leave and get an apartment is the impulse that shouldn't be acted upon. they feel they are having their marriage broken up against their will, how is this controlled separation for them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

• "Spouses get to experiment with living alone and having more freedom."
  

Well well, isn't this what I have said all along? One spouse DOESN'T WANT to experiment with being single. They feel they got married because they want to be married and they still want to be together and they feel working on the marriage together means being together and doing it together. The rest of that is just too much stuff meant to excuse someone taking off on their marriage and still have a reason to keep paying a counselor.

 

 

 

 

"My apologies to you CMS that you have not been allowed to even present your side of the story without being beaten into submission."

 

Oh Please. She gave plenty of information to show us what is happening here. You don't appear to be intuitive enough to read between the lines even when she has given plenty of the signs of GIGS.

 

I have no problem with her moving on and becoming single if she feels she cannot be happy in her marriage. My adivice to her was that she will feel better about herself and make hers and her husbands recovery much easier if she can face the truth that this is about her being boired with married life and she is considering breaking up her marriage to be single again. It will be more honorable for her to simply admit that this is not about her working on her marriage together and that getting an apartment alone, not giving a time of return, and cutting off the entire intimate side of her marriage is not because she is working to give her marriage and family what it deserves.

 

She will find that taking the honorable path and just admitting that she wants to be single again will clear things up better for herself AND her husband and will allow both to begin getting on with their lives in the light of the truth instead of causing more pain and confusion by saying their are other motives other than her boredom and feeling that she wants to be free again.

 

Sorry, but I think my assessment of this situation is far closer to the truth than yours, I guess others will decide that for themselves, but I would bet more feel like I am closer to the truth than you are.

[so_difficult]

I've seen on a few posts here where people think sex with others while separated is 'cheating' and even people who call themselves the OM or OW because a divorce is not final and I'm sorry, I can't see that at all.

 

If two people are living in separate households and not carrying on a married relationship, then as far as I'm concerned, they're free to do whatever they feel comfortable doing and with whomever they want to do it. If I were single I'd never get into a long-term relationship with such a person, but would I get into bed with them? Sure why not?

[Guitarjeff]

And now this is the conversation I would suggest CMS has with her husband.

 

CMS: We need to talk. I need to explain something that I now realize. I have had to admit to myself that this has really all been about me not feeling happy being in this mar4riage and I have been thinking i want to be free again to find my own happiness.

 

You see, you know my parents were married until death, and that's how I was raised to believe, so when I started having these feelings, knowing that if I were to be free our marriage would have to break up, I felt inside that I would be destroying my beliefs and not just our marriage. But I realize now that all we have is one precious life and that no one can be expected to sacrifice the rest of that one and only life to unhappiness just to keep marriage vows that were made years ago.

 

I realize that I don't have to have excuses for simply making a move to attain personal happiness in this one and only life. I now know that even the spouse that wants to keep the marriage, without the emotion involved, would always agree that no one would want or expect someone to stay and live with them knowing that the person doesn't want to be with them. So husband, I know you are hurting and will feel tererible about our marriage breaking up, but you do know inside that aside from your pain, you would never want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Of course the pain will make you hold on and say and do certain things you don't mean, but in the end, you would never want to be with someone knowing they don't want to be with you.

 

Husband, I now realize that even though I want the freedom and to start a new life, of course it is still scary to make that move and I guess I was feeling like that if I gave you hope of me coming back that you would hang on and it would give me kind of a safety net so that I could feel more comfortable. It is probably normal that a spouse would have fears making such a move, especially if the other spouse is the one making most of the money in the marriage and it's just human nature to want that backup plan in case the fear or situation becomes too great.

 

You see, that's why I told you I was doing this for us, for our marriage and family and didn't tell you that in reality this is about me and that the chances of me ever moving back in here are far lower than I led you to believe.

 

I now realize that doing this may give me more of a safety net, but I realize that it also keeps you in the dark about what's really going on and it gives you false hope and will cause you to stifle your own progression because you will not be able to get started with your healing and moving forward if you don't really know the reality that surrounds you.

 

I realize now that to be honorable for myself and to you that I cannot give you false hope and confuse you so that I can have that safety net. I realize that even though you will be hurting, you will respect my honesty in the end and you will know in your soul that I am looking you in the eye and giving you the real truth, exposing the true reality that surrounds you so that you too can move forward with your life immediately as I have done..

 

I now realize that I have to take the fear and risks involved with my decisions just as you have to take the pain of accepting that you can't expect someone to stay with you when they don't feel they want to. I will have to face that if it doesn't go well, and yu have moved on, I may want you back and may not be able to have you, I may have to move to my Fathers or a fiends house. part of me taking the chance to move on for happiness means I also have to accept the risks involved of moving on and that it's not right for me to confuse your life and give you false hope or to blame you for what i have decided to do. I don't want to be responsible for causing you more pain and arrested development in your life just to take some of my fear away.

 

So I am coming to you now in complete honesty and looking you in the eye and giving you the real truth and I'm jow taking the honorable path. Now i realize that it is not wrong for me to make a change because this one life is precious and you know that without the emotional pain you would of course admit you would never want someone to live with you out of just shame or fear. So now I can say to you that this is not because of you being a bad person or not deserving love.

 

It is simply that I cannot feel happy living with you in a marriage, that doesn't mean you yourself are a bad person and will never find someone you can be happy with. It just means that I cannot be happy going forward with our relationship and still be happy. I don;t have to feel guilty about breaking my vows, or smashing the beliefs I grew up learning. I now know I am not a bad person and no one in their right mind would expect someone to sacrifice the rest of their life just because of marriage vows made years ago.

 

Now that I am giving you the real truth, you can now move on in your life and make decisions based on the real reality around you. And being honorable like this with each other means we can be friends and you know, people even end up getting married again, there's no law that says we can egt together again someday if we both wanted to, no law that says we couldn't even get married again if we both decided we wanted that. I now see that I have to take the risk that you will move on and won't want me back after a while or you may find someone else, but that's the risk that is inherent in the decsion I have made, but you never know what might happen. We both may find we can't find a life better separated and we may decide to try again a couple years down the road.

 

So I now feel much better about myself after being honest and straight forward with you. I know right now you are hurting and you don't want the split, but I also know that after the pain dies down you will also respect me for giving you the real truth and setting you free to move on so that you are not living under any illusions.

 

Now Husband to himself after CMS leaves:

 

Wow, this hurts so bad, but I also know when someone is telling me the truth. She looked me right in the eyes and told me the real truth. And no matter how bad this hurts, there is also this good feeling too, small as it is, and the feeling is that knowledge is power. By her giving me the real truth I feel like I have this small kernel of power over my life, like I can now have a path forward.

 

It hurts so bad, but I realize that a large portion of the pain was the not knowing, the confusion, and that the false hope was damaging me and hurting me, even though i wanted to have it. Part of the pain was that inside, I already knew what she just explained to me. I already knew that this was not her and me working on the marriage together. I wanted to believe it and made myself blind my eyes to what I already knew deep inside.

 

Now, by her being completely honest, looking me in the eye and giving me the real truth, I know I can set a path forward instead of treading water. It hurts, but I also have a grudging respect for her because she has given me the power of truth, the ability to make decisions for my life based on reality and not false hope, and she has also set her own self free from feeling like she needs to make excuses to ease her guilt at the thought of going against her own beliefs.

 

Now i can get on with living and picking up the pieces and I don't have to be angry at her. I am hurt, my pride is hurt and my heart is broken, but I also know now this is about her and not me being a failure. In that way she has done me a true favor and in the end I will respect her for it.

 

 

So there it is, sorry for rambling but my advice to CMSis to have this conversation with her husband. She will feel so much better and she will be taking the honorable path all thew way and her husband, though hurt for some time, will respect her honesty and will be able to accept the truth much easier and he will know she gave him the tools to do that.

 

Hope it works out for you CMS

[Guitarjeff]

I agree. It would be one thing if BOTH people wanted a split with clear guidlines and a time set to make a decision, but when one person simply wants to move out and cuts off all intimacy against the wishes of the other spouse then I feel that they are within their moral rights to move forward, even if it means finding some comfort in other arms. It doesn't even have to be all about sex. A spouse who has basically, in their view, been dumped sometimes might simply want to be comforted or need the ego boost to assure themselves that they are still desirable.

 

Now, if her husband needed that intimate comfort and connection, and he COULD NOT turn to his spouse for that comfort, it was against his will that thisw comfort was taken from his life, then I believe he has every right to satisfy that need. Now, this doesn't mean it is the right thing to do for him. It doesn';t mean he won't regret it later, it doesn't mean it won't cause him even more comfusion, it just means that if he does decide to do it he is not morally wrong and he has the right to do it since he has nowhere to turn for that comfort and is not in a situation that he has chosen. he had the right to look after that need since his spouse made it clear that he would no longer be able to look for that comfort in his marriage with her. he may well regret it later but that depends on the individual and his nature. But he absolutely was not morally incorrect for it, that need is a part of human nature and his wife clearly said that need will no longer be satisfied in his marriage. That's the bottom line.

 

 

I've seen on a few posts here where people think sex with others while separated is 'cheating' and even people who call themselves the OM or OW because a divorce is not final and I'm sorry, I can't see that at all.

 

If two people are living in separate households and not carrying on a married relationship, then as far as I'm concerned, they're free to do whatever they feel comfortable doing and with whomever they want to do it. If I were single I'd never get into a long-term relationship with such a person, but would I get into bed with them? Sure why not?

[worldgonewrong]

Now Husband to himself after CMS leaves:

 

"I'm going to drunk as f*ck tonight."

[Guitarjeff]

lol, yeah, that's sometimes part of the healing too.

 

 

"I'm going to drunk as f*ck tonight."

[cms2012]

I'm not gone...I'm still trying to process it all and everyone's input to my post.

 

I actually printed everything out...to re-read with a more clear head. Anger isn't the best emotion to make your point from but wow...everyone must have insane amounts of time of the computer...with my son I do not.

 

I would like to thank 'trippi...', you seem to be aware of some of the more modern methods out there and I didn't realize how uncommon it was, but I feel from my experience alone, with it not providing the outcome l desired, I can't say I would advise it going forward. Lump it up to whatever, I truly don't know...

 

So I am reading and 'listening', but endured a pretty crazy weekend, so my mind is spent. What brought my husband to telling me was that he was going to 'end things' due to this OW telling him she wanted to slow down and then he went nutty from the rejection. He was on suicide watch (and this is no lie) and I've had my son with me since last Friday.

 

So bear with me on this as I try to work through it all. No hard feelings...

Later - C

[trippi1432]

Everyone here is allowed a voice here CMS..everyone! Hurt is hurt, however it is delivered.

 

Take all the time you need. There are people who will listen and offer what they can.

[trippi1432]

"I'm going to drunk as f*ck tonight."

 

WGW - Really?

[trippi1432]

Trippi, you know I'm down with your insights but I'll disagree here. This OP was at best vague or worse, downright secretive. Add in defensive too. Just the same, I'll trust your instincts if you think she got hammered before she was able to warm up and tell her story. OP, if you're reading, I'll listen to it.

 

Moreover, I cannot get on board with 'controlled separation' either, although you make some valid points. I think it's a failed concept unless the parties involved closely follow the textbook script. More than anything, we learn by doing and living apart is not applicable practice for marriage.

 

All my opinion of course. As is the fact that I'm very soured on the marriage counseling scene. With all due respect, I believe we're over-emphasizing the therapy game and over-complicating life and love. At best, the MC route is a crap shoot and frankly, that's just not good enough.

 

 

Thank you Steadfast.....let's let things unfold before jumping. A lot of people have been burned on MC, my boyfriend included...take a happy pill...he walked out of the office and her. Every person is unique.

 

I have a lot of things here I could personally interject about, what good would it do this audience? Oh wait!! I may have done that already. :/

 

Jeff...et/all: CMS deserves to be heard, so let's give her that respect please?

[trippi1432]

Personally, I feel the injustice was that CMS did not even get a chance to really offer her side of the story, other than she left the home.

 

She didn't stop at telling us she only left the home. She informed us that she was "Semi Happy", she informed us that her husband didn't want her to leave, she informed us that she gave no definite amount of time for her to decide her feelings, and then when she did explain more it looked more and more like this was the "I'm bored and my husband doesn't excite me enough and I think the grass would be greener on the other side of the fence. Here's one of her quotes.

 

"There is so much 'more' that is needed to make a marriage a truly successful business venture. And just as in any successful business you need to learn and grow, and do new things to improve. Being stagnant and semi-happy is just existing in life. And that is what I couldn't do and thought I could jolt him to see that in some way.."

 

How is this not giving her side? And it appears like she is simply bored when you read between the lines, and that he is satisfied with the way things are.

 

Another Quote

 

"After 9 years of marriage, 12 years of being together we kept hitting that same wall. Yes, I could've 'done my wifely duties' and after my son was of age in that 20-25 year point, I could move on (another disheartening trend), but that isn't what I wanted to do."

 

She says she could have just continued with the wifely duties? You mean a married person should do anything else? Then she tells us she didn't "WANT" to do that.

 

Then this.

"We had sat at the T-Intersection for years...he admits, he kind of was just accepting this as is...and I couldn't, I wanted more from us and I felt our marriage and family life deserved that."

 

He admits he accepted this? You mean he says he is happy in the marriage and thinks they have a good family, and she doesn't and is bored, that's what this looks VERY MUCH LIKE. Then she says she wants for them THEM and the family, so she leaves and cuts off intimacy with no definite time table? And you say she has been judged before she had a chance to tell her side? I say hogwash. I can easily read between these lines, and you don't leave your home, get an apartment and start living single and tell the husband you are working on your marriage together. That's not how it works accept for counselors making money who want to keep the customers coming to the office.

 

 

 

 

"Men here tend to get the advice to get themselves back home to protect their assets as much as "try" to work on the marriage. "

 

And they also get the truth that most of the time men hold on while a wife does the "Love you but not in love", "Need to move out to find myself" stuff only to be crushed when they realize that have been hanging on only to be plan B while the wife sets up her new life with him as the safety net.

 

"Is separation really a poor tool for the process of reconciliation? If both parties are hot-headed and cannot live in the same house without repeating the same mistakes, I would have to disagree."

 

Sorry, but that's a crock of BS. When one partner is happy and doesn't want to part, it does them no good at all, especially since one of the spouses can simply say I am not satisfied no matter what the other spouse tries to do because they are simply bored and want to be free. When these spouses want to be free they are determined to do it so nothing the other spouse does will satisfy them. I claim that the chances of CMS ever moving back in were extremely low and I think you know this.

 

 

 

 

" In the case of abuse, yes, separation is definitely needed....however abuse is more than just physical, it can be mental, it can be verbal, it can be emotional."

 

Yep, it can be anything the bored person wants it to be, and it can cover any situation and is a perfect excuse when you are determined to be free and single because you can always claim that the other spouse hasn't done enough to fix it. CMS clearly saqid she was "SEMI HAPPY" and that her husband didn't want the split. What does that sound like to you? It sounds like CMS was bored, feeling in a rut and wants to be single and free again so she figured she would move out and test the waters and the hubby would hang on and be the safety net in case she decided it was too deep out in those waters.

 

 

 

"I could have written this myself almost 3 years ago. I would surmise that her independent ways of coping meant that she needed to find her own balance, sense of center as it wasn't happening at home."

 

She said that her FAMILY deserved to find IT'S BALANCE, remember, she was doing this for HER FAMILY and MARRIAGE, TOGETHER. Now it's about "her own" balance? Sorry, but you don't work on the marriage and family by taking off and getting an apartment on your own. But you do JUST THAT when you are bored and want to be free and test the waters because you are considering divorcing for that freedom. Then getting an apartment alone as a separation is definitely called for, isn't it? You tell me which one of our scenarios sounds more like the real truth.

 

Your theory

 

It's all about CMS thinking of her family and marriage and their needs, so she gets an partment and moves out and cuts off intimacy with her husband and give no definite time table for this experiment and the other half, the husband doesn't want her to leave and is satisfied with the marriage, but she is doing it for THEM.

 

My Theory

 

CMS is bored, "SEMI HAPPY" and that's good enough for the husband but she wants more excitement for HERSELF and so against her husband's wishes she considers breaking the family up because she is wanting to possibly be free, so she gets an apartment and moves out to test the waters and keeps her husband on the side as a safety net. This is not about what she thinks her marriage and family deserves, this is about what she thinks she deserves and she is considering breaking her marriage and family up to get it.

 

Now, tell me which scenario sounds more reasonable in this case. I am not saying she should stay in a marriage she is unhappy in. I am saying that we always see these head games and excuses. It's unreal how common it is for the bored spouse to save face by saying "Hey, I'm moving out and getting an apartment and cutting off our intimacy and I'm doing it because I'm trying to help out marriage and family because our marriage and family deserve better, so this sin't about me being bored and weanting to be free, I'm actually sacrificing for my marriage and family by moving out agains your wishes and giving no time table for a return.

 

Sorry, but I think my explanation is TEN TIMES more realistic and closer to the truth here.

 

 

 

 

 

"Did she have an affair, did she leave for someone else....guess we will never know as she was called out to be an evil woman who deserved her husband stepping out on her because she took away physical intimacy???"

 

Don't forget she moved out, and yep, you cut off a part of marriage that helps balance and make your marriage a partnership you are going to have a tough time making anyone believe you are doing it because you are working on the marriage together. I don't even believe you believe this stuff.

 

 

 

"Controlled separation agreement: Controlled separation is a new approach to dealing with marital problems that has grown in popularity over the last few years."

 

Laughable. One spouse almost always does not want separation and doesn't think the marriage is bad enough to do it. Most of the time they have no choice bit there's nothing they can do about it so they hang on, usually to their severe detriment. And the counselors continue to make their money even after the marriage has basically broken up with them not even living together anymore. Sounds like the counselors found themselves a new way to keep those sessions rolling in, eh? Controlled separation, indeed. The spouse that doesn't want his marriage in separation doesn't have any control, no do they?

 

 

 

"The ultimate goal of controlled separation is to save the marriage by working with a counselor by putting together a separation agreement with specific guidelines."

Translation: Keep the sessions coming and the payments to the counselor going even after the marriage has split up and the bored spouse has already got an apartment to see if they want to be free.

 

"Controlled separation allows couples who are experiencing problems to live separately and, at the same time negotiate and work toward finding solutions to the marital problems. It has been found to be successful when one spouse was adamant about divorcing. Putting distance between the spouses and individual work with a counselor helps spouses see things from a different perspective."

 

And it also keeps the counselors session fees rolling in, though I guess that's just mere coincidence, eh?

"What does it do, with counseling being a part of the mix?:

• Puts a stop to the fighting."
  

One spouse doesn't feel the fighting is bad enough to separate.

 

 

• "Gives each spouse the space needed to cool off."
  

One spouse doesn't feel they need the space to cool off, they feel they should be working on the marriage together, in the same home, and not have a massive part of their marriage, intimacy, cut off and thrown out of the equation.

 

 

• "Keeps the spouses from acting on impulse."
  

One spouse feels that the decision to leave and get an apartment is the impulse that shouldn't be acted upon. they feel they are having their marriage broken up against their will, how is this controlled separation for them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

• "Spouses get to experiment with living alone and having more freedom."
  

Well well, isn't this what I have said all along? One spouse DOESN'T WANT to experiment with being single. They feel they got married because they want to be married and they still want to be together and they feel working on the marriage together means being together and doing it together. The rest of that is just too much stuff meant to excuse someone taking off on their marriage and still have a reason to keep paying a counselor.

 

 

 

 

"My apologies to you CMS that you have not been allowed to even present your side of the story without being beaten into submission."

 

Oh Please. She gave plenty of information to show us what is happening here. You don't appear to be intuitive enough to read between the lines even when she has given plenty of the signs of GIGS.

 

I have no problem with her moving on and becoming single if she feels she cannot be happy in her marriage. My adivice to her was that she will feel better about herself and make hers and her husbands recovery much easier if she can face the truth that this is about her being boired with married life and she is considering breaking up her marriage to be single again. It will be more honorable for her to simply admit that this is not about her working on her marriage together and that getting an apartment alone, not giving a time of return, and cutting off the entire intimate side of her marriage is not because she is working to give her marriage and family what it deserves.

 

She will find that taking the honorable path and just admitting that she wants to be single again will clear things up better for herself AND her husband and will allow both to begin getting on with their lives in the light of the truth instead of causing more pain and confusion by saying their are other motives other than her boredom and feeling that she wants to be free again.

 

Sorry, but I think my assessment of this situation is far closer to the truth than yours, I guess others will decide that for themselves, but I would bet more feel like I am closer to the truth than you are.

 

 

Sheesh Jeff, do you know the best musicians make better music just saying what they need to say in the chorus? You live your life and music your way, I will live it mine. I empathize with where you are and the **** you have been through and have been listening to your music for now on 2 years. But sometimes it just best to move on son....Just move on, if you need a competition, you can generate your own audience I'm sure.

[Guitarjeff]

We're here to help, might as well make our points. I stand by mine. I do hope CMS finds happiness and I'm sure she will. Son? If you're that old then I'm proud to call ya Dad.

 

 

Sheesh Jeff, do you know the best musicians make better music just saying what they need to say in the chorus? You live your life and music your way, I will live it mine. I empathize with where you are and the **** you have been through and have been listening to your music for now on 2 years. But sometimes it just best to move on son....Just move on, if you need a competition, you can generate your own audience I'm sure.

[worldgonewrong]

WGW - Really?

 

no no, I was kidding - joking that would be the reflexive response of the average husband in the wake of bombshells. that's all.