"If they loved you..."

[Silly_Girl]

Some thoughts during my lunchbreak

 

Who are we to judge the strength of someone's feelings, whether they love or don't love someone?

 

I remember back when I was being told "I love you with all my heart, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, you mean the world to me", and he hadn't moved out; was still living with his wife. Was I supposed to say "No, you liar, if you loved me you would XYZ, pronto!"? Cos I did.

 

But although he didn't (initially and for some time) do what I needed him to do, I could see he loved me, I could feel it. It was clear to those we socialised with, it was clear to his siblings when he broke down in tears at a family event. He loved me as much as he could. But still, he didn't leave. For various significant and insignificant (in my eyes!) reasons.

 

The question is about what you demand from love, not what love is. Love is different for all of us and I am not comfortable with someone sitting in judgement as to who loves who, how much, and why.

 

Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you', what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'.

 

I've just had yet another conflict with my son's dad. I am furious. Absolutely seething. I think my son would be better off were his dad to live on the opposite side of the world, or worse... And I got to thinking of the ways in which my ex SHOWS his other children love, he takes them to the park, he cooks their dinner, he bathes them, he picks them up from school, he tickles them and makes them laugh, he ensures they see their grandparents and godparents.

 

And yet, I see my son and his dad together and I know he loves his boy. I know he does. No one that knows his dad would ever dream of suggesting he doesn't love his son. He boasts about him at work, and is livid (ironically) if anyone else lets him down. He was a perfect dad for the first 6 years, I couldn't have asked for more, and now that other situations and problems have arisen my son has been put to the back of the queue. Very far back Yet his dad still loves him. It's not a love I am satisfied with, or can be proud of, but it is definitely there.

 

It just made me think even more about my signature, about whether Love is enough. Love alone didn't and couldn't sustain me, I needed more and fought for that for quite a while.

 

I think it is possible for someone to love strongly and deeply and yet still fall short of what makes a happy relationship, whether in a marriage or an affair. It's up to the other person to decide if they are getting what they need and deserve and react accordingly.

[beenburned]

silly girl,

 

It is because they are NOT CAPABLE of that type of love with anybody!!

 

Some people are so flawed within(for different reasons), that they don't even understand a love where you fully commit yourself. This type of person has a shallow love with no depth towards everyone in their life.

 

My H's cheating on me didn't have anything to do with whether he loved me or not!!

 

It was ALL ABOUT the flaws inside of himself. It would not have mattered who he was married to, he still would have cheated on them!(he has told me this repeatedly over the years)

[hermione08]

Silly girl,

 

I think that whatever he felt for you wasn't love in its fuller sense.

Love is made of affection, intimacy, passion and, last but definitely not least, commitment.

If the commitment is non existent, than you have something which is romance/intimacy/passion, but not love.

Therefore it is correct to say that someone does not love you if he/she does not at least try to commit to a life together.

This is my two cents.

[Silly_Girl]

Silly girl,

 

I think that whatever he felt for you wasn't love in his fuller sense.

Love is made of affection, intimacy, passion and, last but definitely not least, commitment.

If the commitment is non existent, than you have something which is romance/intimacy/passion, but not love.

Therefore it is correct to say that someone does not love you if he/she does not at least try to commit to a life together.

This is my two cents.

 

He left his wife so that we could be together

 

Still, it's your take on what love means to YOU. We are not all the same. Him staying and loving me from there did not make him a good partner, but did not mean he didn't love me.

[Silly_Girl]

silly girl,

 

It is because they are NOT CAPABLE of that type of love with anybody!!

 

Some people are so flawed within(for different reasons), that they don't even understand a love where you fully commit yourself. This type of person has a shallow love with no depth towards everyone in their life.

 

My H's cheating on me didn't have anything to do with whether he loved me or not!!

 

It was ALL ABOUT the flaws inside of himself. It would not have mattered who he was married to, he still would have cheated on them!(he has told me this repeatedly over the years)

 

Yes, BRANDS of love, as opposed to whether or not love existed, I can understand that and identify with it.

[skywriter]

Beenburned,

Some people are so flawed within(for different reasons), that they don't even understand a love where you fully commit yourself. This type of person has a shallow love with no depth towards everyone in their life.

 

My H's cheating on me didn't have anything to do with whether he loved me or not!!

 

It was ALL ABOUT the flaws inside of himself. It would not have mattered who he was married to, he still would have cheated on them!(he has told me this repeatedly over the years)

 

 

I relate to this response by Beenburned so well. It is well how I percieve the exMM that I was involved with to be.

 

I can even imagine him saying something to the effect of, "it's nothing personal, it's just that," they" , (women in general), need me to help them with their ego.

[mercy]

 

I've just had yet another conflict with my son's dad. I am furious. Absolutely seething. I think my son would be better off were his dad to live on the opposite side of the world, or worse... And I got to thinking of the ways in which my ex SHOWS his other children love, he takes them to the park, he cooks their dinner, he bathes them, he picks them up from school, he tickles them and makes them laugh, he ensures they see their grandparents and godparents.

 

And yet, I see my son and his dad together and I know he loves his boy. I know he does. No one that knows his dad would ever dream of suggesting he doesn't love his son. He boasts about him at work, and is livid (ironically) if anyone else lets him down. He was a perfect dad for the first 6 years, I couldn't have asked for more, and now that other situations and problems have arisen my son has been put to the back of the queue. Very far back Yet his dad still loves him. It's not a love I am satisfied with, or can be proud of, but it is definitely there.

 

 

Well that just p$ssed me off! Your son will see all those things and grow up wondering why he didn't deserve those things. Again a child being treated in a way that they don't deserve. At the core of his being he'll feel, not quite good enough. Do what you must to an adult who can see through the BS, but not a child, never a child.

 

Lucky he has you!

[beenburned]

mercy,

 

Unfortunately this is very common in men that remarry and have more children with their new wives!

 

They devote the majority of their time to the new family, and the kids from the first marriage get little more than phone calls or holidays.

It is heartbreaking for the children to feel replaced by the children from the new marriage.

 

skywriter,

 

I think most of the serial cheaters fall into this category!

 

My D's STBXH thought he loved them all, the wife, OW#1, and OW#2. I guess his motto was " spread the love"!

 

I don't think he will ever commit fully to anyone. Unfortunately, he now has a new girlfriend/OW#3 that has no idea about his history of using everyone!

 

If he truly does not believe in monogamy, he needs to be honest and upfront with all these women!(duh, like that's really gonna happen)

[Fitz]

If so called "love" doesn't deliver true commitment then what does it matter?

 

If it allows someone to be a coward or a pacifist then what good is it?

 

Sure, if you want to call that "love" then feel free. Call it whatever you want to make yourself feel better -or justify the time you invested. Honestly.

 

But the bottom line is that it doesn't amount to anything.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Fitz

[Silly_Girl]

If so called "love" doesn't deliver true commitment then what does it matter?

 

If it allows someone to be a coward or a pacifist then what good is it?

 

Sure, if you want to call that "love" then feel free. Call it whatever you want to make yourself feel better -or justify the time you invested. Honestly.

 

But the bottom line is that it doesn't amount to anything.

 

It was Love, but I wanted more, that's the point. We have to draw our own lines in the sand.

[hermione08]

@silly girl

I don't know your back story, I was talking about people who say they are in love with one person and yet decide to live with another.

Feelings without actions for me are meaningless. Yes, it's just my opinion.

Peace

[Silly_Girl]

@silly girl

I don't know your back story, I was talking about people who say they are in love with one person and yet decide to live with another.

Feelings without actions for me are meaningless. Yes, it's just my opinion.

Peace

 

You see, this is where I have an issue. I'm permitted to say he loved me, because he told his wife, family and friends this and left the marital home. But what if he hadn't? Are our feelings from back then deemed irrelevant? They were real to us at the time and they're still real looking back. What if it takes ten years? Can I then still say he loved me throughout those ten years and have people accept it?

 

I'm not saying that folk shouldn't demand action, but I don't agree with prescribing that 'it isn't love' just because they didn't behave how we would wish. Heck, I love my mum and she rarely behaves how I wish! She loves her horses more than us

[beenburned]

IMHO, he loved you but not enough to give you whatever it was that you wanted.(this also applies to his wife)

[sleepie]

@silly girl

I don't know your back story, I was talking about people who say they are in love with one person and yet decide to live with another.

Feelings without actions for me are meaningless. Yes, it's just my opinion.

Peace

 

I understand why you feel this way. A lot of people do.

 

Personally, I think love is one of those things that's so difficult to define. There are different types, different levels, different ways to feeling it.

 

Even when we're referring to romantic love, I believe there's a continuum. I know it's not a popular opinion around here. But I do think there are levels of love. I "kind of" love you. I "love" you. I "really" love you. I "love you so much I can't live without you."

 

I think my xMM loved me as best as he could, given that he was a selfish man. I just think he loved his W more. That doesn't negate the idea that he loved me, but simply acknowledges that his "love" wasn't enough to overcome the love he felt for his W.

 

I guess I don't think love is an all or nothing proposition. We can love two people. But I don't think we can love two people equally.

[MissBee]

I think in a similar topic, I said, I don't really care how much someone loves...in terms of if that love is simply a strong feeling they feel, that doesn't actually reflect in actions or isn't accompanied by things like: respect, trust, honesty, willingness, courage etc. Without loads of other qualities, love, as merely a strong feeling in your heart, that's there for you alone to feel, doesn't help anyone really.

 

So yes, I am certain someone can feel that they love another but for me personally, I'm not sure how it changes the game to say "I'm sure he loves you...even if he isn't showing it, even if he has abandoned you, even if he makes you feel bad, even if he's lying etc.." I mean...maybe saying that will make some people feel better, but it usually doesn't.

 

Funny enough my sister and I were talking about past relationships and she was discussing an ex of hers and how much of a mess he was and he told her: "If I ever hurt you it's because I love you". He of course cheated many times and lied and did all this BS...but in his mind/words he was saying I love you that's why I do it. I feel well within my right to judge that that isn't love. We both had a laugh about that WTF-moment and she was talking about how much she was naive back then and thought it so sweet that he had said that

 

I think we live in a society where love is tossed around, whether or not people mean it or even know what it means. I don't think love, particularly romantic love, is something a lot of people naturally know how to do well. But we know it exists, we know we feel something, and we know when you're with someone and feel strongly, you say it. I grew to have a particular standard for love (which I didn't always have, my idea of love was more shallow and feeling based until through experience I realized all those feelings were just that, but most weren't sustainable and accompanied by more), and I can only use what I consider love to be to judge whether I see it from a partner or whether I feel another is being shown that. Love should be self-evident and I think people should be able to know it by its manifestation in someone's life and actions....if not...then really...anyone can do the most horrendous things or never do anything and so long as they simply pay lip service to love, a feeling we cannot see in their heart or mind...but we must trust that although we don't see it, because they say it, it's true. If that's the case and we can never judge it but only have to trust that anyone saying it means it...then umm...I guess we could do that, but I'm not sure how profitable that is.

Edited July 23, 2012 by MissBee

[hermione08]

silly girl,

I understand what you mean, but I still think that love needs some kind of action, otherwise it's only lip service.

Whether it's living together or letting someone go if you think they are better off without you.

I use my story as an example: my ex bf, whom I briefly betrayed with my ex MM, even after being told of the A, still behaved like a gentleman. We are still friends and he's great, helping and morally supporting me through a time of personal crisis.

I know he loves me. Because his actions say he does.

On the other hand, the ex MM, who is my first love (therefore my ex fiancee' of a long time ago) said he loved me a thousand time but I have not had any evidence of this. I cannot feel it. Nor could I feel it then when we were partners.

It was passion, romantic love, etc. But I never felt like I could have his help or his support or that he would be there for me no matter what.

So for me, whatever he says, he never loved me.

The only woman he loved (despite his denying this) is his wife. He committed to her and not to me. Actions speak louder than words.

[alexandria35]

This is a funny thread because I think everyone is kind of saying the same thing, even the OP.

 

Love is different things to different people. I had a long relationship with a personality disordered man. I often felt like no way can he love me and treat me like this. When the relationship finally ended I was tormented by the thought that I gave so many years to a man who didn't even really love me. But at the same time I realize that what he did feel for me was a feeling that he identified as love. When he told me that he loved me he fully believed that he did, however his kind of love didn't feel or look like love to me at all. So I guess in order for two people to have a sucessful longterm relationship they need to have similar styles of love. For most people love without action or commitment isn't worth much. Silly Girl you are permitted to say whatever you want about your relationship with the MM. You can say that he loves/loved you even if he never left his wife, but others are also permitted to give their opinion on that kind of love. For most people it wouldn't be good enough, and it wasn't enough for you either. And now you can't really be objective about it because your MM did love you enough to take action and make it happen, which of course will affirm to you that he truly did love you all along. I think you may feel differently if the events were different. What if you left him and his response was just to go get himself another OW? Or buy a house and have a baby with his wife? Then would you be so certain and sure of the realness and depth of his love?

[Silly_Girl]

Miss Bee, I didn't suggest it would be 'profitable' to acknowledge such things, I point is I am uncomfortable in seeing Person A prescribing to Person B that Person C does not love them, when Person A has not met Person C. And not only that but Person A is judging Person C on their own personal parameters, which could likely be different to B and C

 

I found it offensive when I was told by LSers the MM did not love me, and looking back from an entirely different perspective now I still think to do so to posters is wrong. It does nothing to empower the disadvantaged OW in my view. In fact, the way a few have done it, it just smacks of bullying.

[Silly_Girl]

Alexandria, your post made me smile. My ex-boyfriend with BPD *really* loved me, especially when he brought me flowers after hospitalising me

 

But in answer to your question the MM went on holiday with his wife the week he promised to move out, the f**ker! Yes, he still loved me. I couldn't believe he would risk losing me like that but yes, I'm satisfied he loved me then too.

[Silly_Girl]

SG, your perspective is unique because you are now with the man so you are coming from that place. Your guy followed up his proclamations of love with eventually clear definable actions.

 

No, we aren't together now, we had a great year but circumstances (not marriage-related) meant we could go no further. But I'm still sure of my feelings and his where the relationship is concerned.

[Silly_Girl]

So in conclusion........someone proclaiming love for me means nothing without the actions I need, honesty, integrity, honor and respect. Without those ingredients, it's just empty words. This is me now, not how I was then. I like the difference.

 

Yes, I understand all that, and agree with it personally but I make the distinction between what is acceptable in a reciprocal relationship and saying someone's love is a lie.

[MissBee]

SG, your perspective is unique because you are now with the man so you are coming from that place. Your guy followed up his proclamations of love with eventually clear definable actions. If he hadn't I suspect your view would be different now as we all bring our history and experiences into how we view things and how we post.

 

So with that said, I'm coming from a different place and quite a bit of time between then and now. At the end of the day, it makes no difference now to think he loved me or he didn't, it gives me no peace of mind, no comfort either way. It just doesn't matter to me now. However I do remember a time when I tried to cling to the thought that he did, as if that would somehow make a little more sense out of it. (It didn't).

 

So in conclusion........someone proclaiming love for me means nothing without the actions I need, honesty, integrity, honor and respect. Without those ingredients, it's just empty words. This is me now, not how I was then. I like the difference.

 

I completely agree.

 

I'm not a mind reader...so if your love isn't something palpable that I see and feel through your actions, what does it matter if you feel that way in the privacy of your heart? It doesn't. But I can recall worrying about that with my ex and worrying about if he secretly loved me...I eventually realized what did that matter? We were no longer together and he is with someone else and hasn't done right by me, so exactly how would him thinking he loves me everyday help me? Even my exAP says he will love me until he is 70 years old...lol...I mean is that sweet? I don't know . It doesn't matter to me. I'm not a mind reader and I can't live on the thought that you think you love me.

 

Since none of us reside in another's head...something like love has to be made visible to us through actions. That's the only way I can know for certain and the only way it is beneficial. If it's a love that is only good enough for your knowledge and the recesses of your heart or only verbal proclamations..then hey..the whole world could love me and it really is meaningless.

[Stoneman70]

I agree with you silly girl. Love is different to everyone. Some people think if you don't move mountains for someone you must not love them. I think thats a bit ridiculous. There are many love stories that didn't end in long term committment. Not everything always works out. That doesn't mean you weren't in love or still dont love that person. That's silly and I think we all feel differently. Let's agree to disagree.

 

I don't want anyone telling me I don't love S because I didn't divorce my wife. No one knows what I feel but me. Plain and simple.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

Even though it didn't work out, he still took the actions that proved it.

 

SG I always thought your situation was unique in some ways, and it didn't have the same ingredients that so many of these stories do. Ideally it shouldn't have been an affair that got him out of that marriage but he needed to get out, no doubt.

 

Thanks LG, appreciated. And yes, it would have been so much better for both of them if they'd taken action when it was obvious they needed to.

[frozensprouts]

i think there are an awful lot of positive emotions like love, compassion, empathy, kindness, etc. that are wonderful things. The problem is that without expression or influence on one's actions, , do they matter?

 

an extreme example would be a situation where there is abuse...a man may "love" his wife, yet he beats her every day...does his "love" matter? does it matter that a woman who abuses he child and makes their life miserable "loves" her child?

 

Perhaps the ultimate "judge" ( if one can be said to exist) of these types of emotions is not the one who feels them but the one's who's lives are affected by the expression of these emotions...

 

in other words...do emotions without action really matter?