Villainizing the Ex

[sleepie]

Oh I understand sleepie.

You say one isn't worse than the other - then you promptly tell me how he's worse, because two is bigger than one.

You do see this no?

It's a justification and minimizing YOU.

Don't do it.

 

It's not about you vs him. It's about you and ultimately you and your H.

 

 

 

I agree and as such the biggest douchebag is immaterial.

What matters is you, your H and the internal processes that led you here.

And it has exactly NOTHING to do with MOM.

 

 

 

What did he lie about that caused you heartache and pain?

 

Was this truly an EA that had zero chance of each of you riding off into the sunset together? Is that the path he "failed to deliver on"?

 

I feel that if I answer this honestly, it will seem as if I'm blaming him, not accepting responsibility for my own actions, and trying to shirk my share in this whole A. But the truth is, I felt guilt about it the whole way through, and if he hadn't acted like he loved me so much and made me feel like I was the center of his universe, I either would have never engaged in the A or ended it sooner. Obviously an issue I have to deal with about my self.. some type of neediness or need for validation.

 

So yes, I do believe his lies were harmful. If he hadn't lied, or if I had been smarter at spotting them, this A would have taken a different course sooner. One of the reasons it ended when it did is because I got wise to him.

[woinlove]

I feel that if I answer this honestly, it will seem as if I'm blaming him, not accepting responsibility for my own actions, and trying to shirk my share in this whole A. But the truth is, I felt guilt about it the whole way through, and if he hadn't acted like he loved me so much and made me feel like I was the center of his universe, I either would have never engaged in the A or ended it sooner. Obviously an issue I have to deal with about my self.. some type of neediness or need for validation.

 

So yes, I do believe his lies were harmful. If he hadn't lied, or if I had been smarter at spotting them, this A would have taken a different course sooner. One of the reasons it ended when it did is because I got wise to him.

 

Best to answer honestly because you will learn more from saying (or typing) it and seeing responses, whether some seem unfair to you or not.

 

Obviously, as a married woman, having a MM claiming to love you should not cause you to behave in a way which hurts your H and and your M, not to mention yourself. But it seems you already know that. You are going to have to fundamentally change yourself if you want to be sustain a committed, intimate relationship.

[sleepie]

Really? You are going to count who lied more? Really?

 

 

 

 

Then whats the point of counting? Cheaters keeping score is rather silly.

 

 

 

 

The answer is actually no. Come on, "I'm a liar, but, but, he is s bigger liar"

Really?

 

 

 

 

Douchebaggery is douchebagger, whether its ONE or TWO.

 

 

 

 

Cheaters are liars by default, and cheaters don't get the luxury of crying foul.

 

Sure, I can understand why people might feel that way, especially if you've been a BS. But lies are lies, and just because someone cheats does not immediately make all their feelings invalid. Despite what some people here may want to believe, OWs, OMs, MMs, and MWs are PEOPLE who make mistakes, exercise poor judgement, focus on themselves selfishly, or whatever people might think. Never said they were perfect. But that doesn't mean they should feel ashamed for feeling a full range of emotions, be it anger, injustice, guilt or whatever.

[sleepie]

Best to answer honestly because you will learn more from saying (or typing) it and seeing responses, whether some seem unfair to you or not.

 

Obviously, as a married woman, having a MM claiming to love you should not cause you to behave in a way which hurts your H and and your M, not to mention yourself. But it seems you already know that. You are going to have to fundamentally change yourself if you want to be sustain a committed, intimate relationship.

 

Yes, this is all true.

[nofool4u]

Sure, I can understand why people might feel that way, especially if you've been a BS. But lies are lies, and just because someone cheats does not immediately make all their feelings invalid.

 

I can buy that. But it doesn't give you the high ground over another cheater.

 

 

Despite what some people here may want to believe, OWs, OMs, MMs, and MWs are PEOPLE who make mistakes

 

*sigh* Cheating is NOT a mistake. It doesn't "Just happen". It happens because people want it to happen.

 

You did what you did willingly. It wasn't a mistake.

 

 

exercise poor judgement, focus on themselves selfishly, or whatever people might think. Never said they were perfect. But that doesn't mean they should feel ashamed for feeling a full range of emotions, be it anger, injustice, guilt or whatever.

 

Again, I don't think I can completely discount what you said. The problem is, your biggest beef here isn't your treatment of your husband. It is you, a cheater, thinking you got a raw deal. If you feel that, then it is your prerogative.

 

But you simply look rather silly thinking you have some moral high ground based on being 1 upped on the lying scale. If I was the husband of a wife that cheated and I had to hear how she is angry that the man she cheated on me with lied to her, I think I'd lose it.

[sleepie]

I can buy that. But it doesn't give you the high ground over another cheater.

 

 

 

 

*sigh* Cheating is NOT a mistake. It doesn't "Just happen". It happens because people want it to happen.

 

You did what you did willingly. It wasn't a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Again, I don't think I can completely discount what you said. The problem is, your biggest beef here isn't your treatment of your husband. It is you, a cheater, thinking you got a raw deal. If you feel that, then it is your prerogative.

 

But you simply look rather silly thinking you have some moral high ground based on being 1 upped on the lying scale. If I was the husband of a wife that cheated and I had to hear how she is angry that the man she cheated on me with lied to her, I think I'd lose it.

 

 

Mistakes in judgement are still mistakes. In this context, I mistakenly judged his character.

 

That said, as far as moral high ground goes, I kind of see it like this. Other people's words and actions influence our own behavior. For example, if a man looks at his spouse and out of the blue says 'I hate you and wish you were dead,' then her subsequent behavior is likely to be affected. Extreme example, but there you go.

 

As a result, when someone you trust...even though you probably shouldn't...lies to you over and over again, and influences your behavior with those lies, then I think they ARE more of a douche than the person who is honest. Now, NONE of this excuses having an A, continuing an A, or betraying a S. Not one bit! I am a weak person because I allowed my xMM to influence me AT ALL. But all I'm saying is my behavior would have been different if he hadn't lied.

 

That said, you're all right about one thing: whether MM lied is irrelevant to the important thing, which is my H and M. I suppose I am just trying to sort through all of it right now. Label it. Put it in compartments.

[nofool4u]

Mistakes in judgement are still mistakes. In this context, I mistakenly judged his character.

 

And your character?

 

 

As a result, when someone you trust...even though you probably shouldn't...lies to you over and over again, and influences your behavior with those lies, then I think they ARE more of a douche than the person who is honest.

 

But you aren't honest, you lied yourself. If MM is a douche, what are you?

 

 

Now, NONE of this excuses having an A, continuing an A, or betraying a S. Not one bit! I am a weak person because I allowed my xMM to influence me AT ALL. But all I'm saying is my behavior would have been different if he hadn't lied.

 

You mean you'd still be in an affair with him?

 

Actually, him having one more lie under his belt than you, in the end, was a good thing, depending on your husband's point of view.

[carhill]

But xMM betrayed not just his wife, but me as well. I never told xMM that I didn't love my spouse, never said I only loved xMM, never said H and I didn't have sex, never said H was a bad guy and I was in a bad M. I never lied to xMM. But these are ALL things xMM said to me, things I don't think are true now. So he was a "villain" to both me and his BS.

 

IMO, this would be some valuable work to do in IC. I could see this providing clarity and a refocus on your M, which you're saying isn't bad, a husband you think is not bad and with whom you inferred you still have sex. Build on that and accept the emotions for the rest. Flip the switch. A professional can help with that, the specifics of it.

 

Sorry I missed your being M in my original response. The gist of it still applies, except that you're not totally alone, but my advice to do the work on yourself alone still applies; once that process is moving forward, then it's possible to engage the M and work to repair it. As long as MM is on your mind, even as a villain, that's going to be tough to do in a healthy way. Good luck.

[Happyface]

I don't villainize xMM. I wonder if he makes me into the Femme Fatale who used to entice him into my bed.

 

I accept that I was just as stupid, guilty and as much an idiot as he was.

 

I don't really know what he was. I guess he was just a person like I am... some good and some bad. I DO know that when he was a little boy his mother had an affair and lost custody of her 4 sons. Each one of the sons had affairs during their marriages. It seemed to be the family tradition.

 

I smile to myself about the man. I met up with him not too long ago for a coffee. It was18 months after we ended the A. He instantly went into A mode again and expected me to respond as I always had. I MUST mention that he has passed his 70th birthday and almost 71... guess he will never change... maybe cheating is in his genes. I had no qualms about going NC again forever.

 

At some stage you might become neutral about xMM. There are lots of stages in the healing process and it's not linear.

 

Keep posting,

 

Happyface.

[sleepie]

And your character?

 

 

Yes

 

But you aren't honest, you lied yourself. If MM is a douche, what are you?

 

Already admitted that I'm a douche, too.

 

 

You mean you'd still be in an affair with him?

 

No. But it might never have started. Or ended sooner.

 

Actually, him having one more lie under his belt than you, in the end, was a good thing, depending on your husband's point of view.

 

You seem convinced that I'm trying to not to accept responsibility for my actions. Understandable, but not correct. I've made it clear over and over again that I take full responsibility for my actions. I understand that I am just as culpable. I realize the lies, deceit, and betrayal behind my own behavior.

[sleepie]

What made you change your mind and stop believing him? Because he decided to stay with his wife?

 

No, I never asked him to leave. And I made it very clear to him from the beginning that I would never leave my own M, either. More a culmination of things that just happened over time. I started to see his behavior as manipulative. He knew how to push my buttons.

 

When I look at it objectively, I actually don't see him as a villain as much as a broken, confused man. But, as many posters here have pointed out, sometimes anger makes it easier to get through these early stages.

[sleepie]

IMO, this would be some valuable work to do in IC. I could see this providing clarity and a refocus on your M, which you're saying isn't bad, a husband you think is not bad and with whom you inferred you still have sex. Build on that and accept the emotions for the rest. Flip the switch. A professional can help with that, the specifics of it.

 

Sorry I missed your being M in my original response. The gist of it still applies, except that you're not totally alone, but my advice to do the work on yourself alone still applies; once that process is moving forward, then it's possible to engage the M and work to repair it. As long as MM is on your mind, even as a villain, that's going to be tough to do in a healthy way. Good luck.

 

Thanks. Yes, I think this is very good advice. That's what I've been doing: working on my own stuff alone while still trying to keep my M moving forward. So far it seems to be moving me in the right direction. Each day gets better, though I guess there may be setbacks along the way.

[Got it]

Sleepie, have you read "When Good People Have Affairs"? It might help you with this process.

[sleepie]

Sleepie, have you read "When Good People Have Affairs"? It might help you with this process.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I haven't really read anything about this, and probably should. I'm usually way into researching things.

[Got it]

I found it to be very helpful for myself. I also liked the "Five Love Languages". It helped me understand myself better and what made me feel most loved. It helped me define what I needed to communicate to my partner.

[nofool4u]

No. But it might never have started. Or ended sooner.

 

So basically all it took was the right words from another man to get you to cheat?

 

Sorry, but you are putting this on the MM. A POS he is, thats for sure. But you don't get to blame him for your decisions. You are married. He shouldn't have been suave enough to get you to cheat on your husband.

 

 

 

You seem convinced that I'm trying to not to accept responsibility for my actions. Understandable, but not correct.

 

Actually, when you keep saying that it is his lies that basically pulled you in, yes, you are trying to not accept responsibility.

 

Accepting responsibility is acknowledging that this was your choice alone and that nobody held a gun to your head, or put you in a trance that made you cheat.

[sleepie]

So basically all it took was the right words from another man to get you to cheat?

 

*sigh* No, I didn't say that. All I'm saying is that his words influenced my behavior.

 

Sorry, but you are putting this on the MM. A POS he is, thats for sure. But you don't get to blame him for your decisions. You are married. He shouldn't have been suave enough to get you to cheat on your husband.

 

Again, not blaming him for the A. I blame him for lying to me.

 

 

 

Actually, when you keep saying that it is his lies that basically pulled you in, yes, you are trying to not accept responsibility.

 

Accepting responsibility is acknowledging that this was your choice alone and that nobody held a gun to your head, or put you in a trance that made you cheat.

 

*sigh* Again, I've admitted a hundred times (I speak in hyperbole there) that I am fully responsible for my actions. And I'll repeat: Other people's words/actions DO influence our own behaviors. He influenced me. That doesn't mean I'm saying he forced me into anything. In fact, one of the ways in which I'm responsible is because I LET him influence me.

[nofool4u]

Well then hopefully for your husband's sake you don't come across another man that says just the right things to influence you.

[alexandria35]

Mistakes in judgement are still mistakes. In this context, I mistakenly judged his character.

 

That said, as far as moral high ground goes, I kind of see it like this. Other people's words and actions influence our own behavior. For example, if a man looks at his spouse and out of the blue says 'I hate you and wish you were dead,' then her subsequent behavior is likely to be affected. Extreme example, but there you go.

 

As a result, when someone you trust...even though you probably shouldn't...lies to you over and over again, and influences your behavior with those lies, then I think they ARE more of a douche than the person who is honest. Now, NONE of this excuses having an A, continuing an A, or betraying a S. Not one bit! I am a weak person because I allowed my xMM to influence me AT ALL. But all I'm saying is my behavior would have been different if he hadn't lied.

 

That said, you're all right about one thing: whether MM lied is irrelevant to the important thing, which is my H and M. I suppose I am just trying to sort through all of it right now. Label it. Put it in compartments.

 

Sleepie I think it is 100% normal and understandable that you feel angry about being lied to and betrayed by your MM. EVERYONE'S reaction to finding out they have been lied to is to feel pissed off about it. I could be the biggest lying douchebag the world has ever known and I'd still be pissed off if I found out someone I trusted lied to me. I'm sure people would point their fingers at me and laugh at how funny it is that I, the worlds biggest lying douche, am having at meltdown at getting a taste of my own medicine and I might even see their point and agree with them on some lever but I'm still gonna be pissed, because that's just how people feel when the are lied to and I can't help feeling it.

 

I pasted your above quote because I 100% agree with you on that too! You're correct people often make their decisions based on believing in the people they love. If a man told his spouse that he hates her and wishes she was dead she would probably make very different choices then if her husband tells her he loves and adores her. You feel that your MM took away your right to make healthy choices for yourself by pretending to be something he's not. He influenced your behavior and choices because you believed in him and believed he loved you. Had he just been honest with you and been upfront with the truth , you could have planned your life accordingly and made better choices, but he didn't do that and because of that you feel cheated, deceived and robbed. Mostly you feel that it makes him a big douchebag.

 

But see here's the thing; the way you describe the situation in the above bolded, the way you talk about him influencing your decisions and how he manipulated you into making choices based on his lies, is EXACTLY the same crap you are piling onto your husband in SPADES!! You are sitting back and watching your husband make decisions, plan his future, live his live all based on the lie of his marriage. He is living your lies and you are happy to let him do that. If your husband knew the truth about you then he could make plan his life accordingly, he could make better decisions about his future. You are playing God with your husbands life. You have decided to that he is somehow too fragile to know the truth and therefore doesn't deserve it. So you watch and let him live in a false reality created by you. So I'm sorry, but no, you don't have any moral superiority over your MM, he's a not bigger ass because he manipulates you and his wife, but you only manipulating and robbing your husbands life. Everything your MM has done you have done as well. You and your MM are one and the same, two peas in a pod.

[sleepie]

But see here's the thing; the way you describe the situation in the above bolded, the way you talk about him influencing your decisions and how he manipulated you into making choices based on his lies, is EXACTLY the same crap you are piling onto your husband in SPADES!! You are sitting back and watching your husband make decisions, plan his future, live his live all based on the lie of his marriage. He is living your lies and you are happy to let him do that. If your husband knew the truth about you then he could make plan his life accordingly, he could make better decisions about his future. You are playing God with your husbands life. You have decided to that he is somehow too fragile to know the truth and therefore doesn't deserve it. So you watch and let him live in a false reality created by you. So I'm sorry, but no, you don't have any moral superiority over your MM, he's a not bigger ass because he manipulates you and his wife, but you only manipulating and robbing your husbands life. Everything your MM has done you have done as well. You and your MM are one and the same, two peas in a pod.

 

My H has made it clear to me that he wouldn't want to know about an EA, especially if it was over. He made that decision, not me. He would want to know about a PA, but thank God I don't have anything to reveal there.

 

Though I do agree with you about one thing: xMOM and I are definitely two peas in a pod. Sadly.

[sleepie]

Oh, and I didn't mean "two peas in a pod" as in: destined to be together soulmates.

 

I meant as in: lying douchebags.

[Spark1111]

Sleepie, like Lady Grey said: Is it possible he needed you to love him, more than he needed to be honest with you?

 

Is it possible he said all those lines of love and center of my universe because he thought or felt that is what you needed to hear to continue loving him? or loving him more?

 

And could it be it was that feeling he needed more than anything? More than you?

 

I know anger is an important part of the process in healing, but if it lasts too long, you have to wonder what the payoff is? Being right? Being more right? Being less wrong?

[beenburned]

sleepie,

 

Alex's post describes exactly how a betrayed spouse feels when she/he finds out they have been lied to!

 

It is done to manipulate people, so that the outcome is exactly what the WS wants. It is planned out and thought about ahead of time,then executed.