Is There An Age To 'Throw In the Towel' for Women?

[Els]

I definitely agree that women who are desperately seeking Rs for the primary purpose of having a child, would be far better off being single mothers. It isn't fair to be with a man just because you want a child, time is running out, and there's 'no one better', when you aren't in love with him. If you are confident that you have the financial, emotional, and physical capability of having a child and taking good care of him/her, why not go for it? Plenty of children who grow up in happy and healthy single homes turn out fine.

[ThaWholigan]

Did you check the links I gave you?

[Els]

For the record, V, I think denise is saying that it IS normal for women to have trouble with relationships. I said this several times before: I don't think you should put much stock in what the guys who perpetually play the 'women have it soooooooooooo much better' victim-card are saying. There is a good reason why many of them have never had a girlfriend, and I'm sure you can guess what it is from that card alone.

 

Thinking someone is 'special' isn't the same as thinking she's one of the hottest girls you've ever met. That's classic immature frat boy mentality, and I don't see why you'd want that.

[verhrzn]

Did you check the links I gave you?

 

Uh, yes, though honestly, did not get them. The theory that fat isn't being deposited "evenly" and he could somehow figure out your chemical imbalance so fat laid evenly is just... weird. Fat and body shape was determined by genetics and bone structure. It also didn't help that his main page was riddled with spelling errors.

 

I definitely agree that women who are desperately seeking Rs for the primary purpose of having a child, would be far better off being single mothers. It isn't fair to be with a man just because you want a child, time is running out, and there's 'no one better', when you aren't in love with him. If you are confident that you have the financial, emotional, and physical capability of having a child and taking good care of him/her, why not go for it? Plenty of children who grow up in happy and healthy single homes turn out fine.

 

Ah but you hit upon it right there. "Have the financial, emotional, and physical capacity." Children are damn expensive even for couples. Being a single mother if you don't have a college education, or a low paying job, is a guaranteed ticket to lifelong poverty.

 

For me, I wouldn't mind emotionally being a single mother, but I just could not support a child without putting the kid at a severe disadvantage throughout their life, financially.

 

So in cases like mine, it really IS find a guy, or don't have kids. What then?

 

For the record, V, I think denise is saying that it IS normal for women to have trouble with relationships. I said this several times before: I don't think you should put much stock in what the guys who perpetually play the 'women have it soooooooooooo much better' victim-card are saying. There is a good reason why many of them have never had a girlfriend, and I'm sure you can guess what it is from that card alone.

 

Thinking someone is 'special' isn't the same as thinking she's one of the hottest girls you've ever met. That's classic immature frat boy mentality, and I don't see why you'd want that.

 

True, but I don't even mean just them. I hear plenty of women always talking about how they get hit on, or how many of their guy friends want them, or how all they have to do is create a blank profile and they get tons of messages. Seems a lot of women perpetuate the myth of "women have it easy in dating" just as much as the Victim Guys.

[ThaWholigan]

Uh, yes, though honestly, did not get them. The theory that fat isn't being deposited "evenly" and he could somehow figure out your chemical imbalance so fat laid evenly is just... weird. Fat and body shape was determined by genetics and bone structure. It also didn't help that his main page was riddled with spelling errors. .

 

Cool, still might be something to check out, I'm going to get both Chek & Poliquin test before I begin mammoth training & martial arts for next year.

 

BTW you never said what you got a black belt in? What degree??

[somedude81]

The key word you missed is "among." I don't need to be THE hottest. But I need to be AMONG. As in, he needs to consider me ONE of the more attractive women he's seen.

It's the same thing.

 

Why in the world would you want to start a relationship with someone who saw you across the room and thought "Meh"?

Just because a guy doesn't call you beautiful, doesn't mean he thinks you're ugly. That black or white thinking isn't helping you.

 

Why can't you be happy knowing that a guy is attracted to you, instead of wanting to be one of the hottest girls he has ever seen?

[Emilia]

I definitely agree that women who are desperately seeking Rs for the primary purpose of having a child, would be far better off being single mothers. It isn't fair to be with a man just because you want a child, time is running out, and there's 'no one better', when you aren't in love with him. If you are confident that you have the financial, emotional, and physical capability of having a child and taking good care of him/her, why not go for it? Plenty of children who grow up in happy and healthy single homes turn out fine.

 

This would count in a vast number of women, dare I say the majority who have children. A lot of married women I know compromised a huge amount to stay with their husbands and have kids

[verhrzn]

Just because a guy doesn't call you beautiful, doesn't mean he thinks you're ugly. That black or white thinking isn't helping you.

 

Why can't you be happy knowing that a guy is attracted to you, instead of wanting to be one of the hottest girls he has ever seen?

 

No, because then I get dumped for the hottest girls. Don't you yourself say guys are going to want the hottest girl they can get? So if a guy just thinks I'm meh-cute, then the only reason he's with me is because he can't get better. As soon as he CAN, he'll ditch me, as my exes have done. Why the heck would I want that?

 

BTW you never said what you got a black belt in? What degree??

 

I'd rather not say, sorry. It's a smaller organization, and while I am bitter they gave me a black belt even though they clearly think I suck, I would rather not damage their reputation.

[Els]

 

 

Ah but you hit upon it right there. "Have the financial, emotional, and physical capacity." Children are damn expensive even for couples. Being a single mother if you don't have a college education, or a low paying job, is a guaranteed ticket to lifelong poverty.

 

There is really no guarantee that being with a man would necessarily help with that. Marital bonds can be a liability as well as an asset, in financial terms.

 

For me, I wouldn't mind emotionally being a single mother, but I just could not support a child without putting the kid at a severe disadvantage throughout their life, financially.

 

So in cases like mine, it really IS find a guy, or don't have kids. What then?

 

Well, there are couples who can't afford to give their kid a good life financially, as well. It would derail into political debate too much if I were to go into whether those couples should or should not have kids. Just saying, even if you marry I don't see how it would help if you feel your finances are extremely insufficient, unless the guy makes significantly more.

 

True, but I don't even mean just them. I hear plenty of women always talking about how they get hit on, or how many of their guy friends want them, or how all they have to do is create a blank profile and they get tons of messages. Seems a lot of women perpetuate the myth of "women have it easy in dating" just as much as the Victim Guys.

 

I don't think there's really a gender divide in this. Plenty of men also have plenty of women going after them. It's just that we don't have many of them on LS (I have seen a few!), but I'm sure you've heard that sort of bragging IRL.

 

I do think that some women link their self-worth and that of other women to relationships far too much. When high school female classmates get together, it isn't usually about what she does or what she'd accomplished, but whether she's single, married or divorced, what does her HUSBAND do, does she have kids, and later on, what are her kids doing? Women are really as competitive as men, it's just that some of them channel this competitiveness into the wrong area. This leads to the situation you described, of 'one-upwomanship' in terms of how much you get hit on or asked out. Again, my suggestion: Just don't participate. Worked wonders for me.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Sheesh. I thought maybe you were giving this crap a rest here for a while. I guess not.

 

The key word you missed is "among." I don't need to be THE hottest. But I need to be AMONG. As in, he needs to consider me ONE of the more attractive women he's seen. Why in the world would you want to start a relationship with someone who saw you across the room and thought "Meh"?

 

Because there is much more to relationships than "hottness." Lots of people who are ugly (which you aren't, but which seems to be great bait for your constant quest for negative attention) have wonderful relationships. So do average looking people, and so do people who aren't each others physical types at all. Duh.

 

I'm attractive (for a crone). When I was young I was attractive. I lived in LA and worked in the entertainment industry. I was absolutely NOT one of the more attractive women ANYONE had seen in that environment. NO way. Who gives a sh**.

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

Actually, I don't think I'm a special case.

 

B.S.

 

The difference is, I talk about it openly. I think a lot of women are ashamed to discuss their single-life difficulties.

 

Talking about "single life difficulties" is not what you spend your time here doing, v. Be honest, please.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of female lurkers just like me on this forum, terrified of ever admitting they've had experiences like mine because they see the heat I get.

 

You don't get heat because of experiences you say you have. You get heat because you refuse to include anything other than experiences (many of which you have probably fabricated) to "prove" that you are 100% ugly, stupid, undesirable, good at nothing, good FOR nothing, friendless, etc.

 

That has NOTHING to do with totally valid issues about being single, having guy troubles, honest self esteem problems, etc.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of female lurkers here who have much more serious problems than the ones you constantly complain about, like they might weigh 300 pounds instead of 123 pounds. But maybe they have a better attitude than you do.

 

You are exactly the same as a person who comes on here and says that they are 100% PERFECT, the most handsome / beautiful person in the universe, everything they turn their hand to turns to gold, people fall down in rapture when they pass, etc. Except in complete reverse.

 

Identical.

 

If you would simply give some attention and credence to some of the things about your life, and about being you that are not completely horrific and tragic, everything would change. You'd have friends. People would not think about all the things wrong with you (which everyone has) if you did not incessantly, obsessively and even dishonestly carry on and on and on about them.

 

But you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that there are such things.

 

V, it's just plain nasty.

[ThaWholigan]

No, because then I get dumped for the hottest girls. Don't you yourself say guys are going to want the hottest girl they can get? So if a guy just thinks I'm meh-cute, then the only reason he's with me is because he can't get better. As soon as he CAN, he'll ditch me, as my exes have done. Why the heck would I want that?

 

 

 

I'd rather not say, sorry. It's a smaller organization, and while I am bitter they gave me a black belt even though they clearly think I suck, I would rather not damage their reputation.

Why not take up another martial art? Do some MMA

[denise_xo]

One of the most frustrating things about this forum is this idea a lot of posters seem to have that women have it "easy" in dating. That all a woman has to do is through up an online profile, even without a picture, and she'll get tons of attention.

 

This is not true for me, and I believe it's not true for many women. The difference is, I talk about it openly. I think a lot of women are ashamed to discuss their single-life difficulties. There could be lots of reasons for this: you're less of a feminist if you admit you need a man, you risk a HECK of a lot of critism by opening up about your difficulties, you're made to feel like a freak ("Oh well I set up a profile with barely any information and got TONS of messages instantly.") People have assumed all manner of things about me JUST because I admit I have difficulty dating: I must have unrealistic standards, I must be fat (and not bothering to do anything about it), lazy, self-centered, sociopathic, on and on.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of female lurkers just like me on this forum, terrified of ever admitting they've had experiences like mine because they see the heat I get.

 

I've never been able to relate to the 'females have it so much better' thing that's going on this forum, but then there are lots of other things I don't relate to here, either. In general, I don't really take LS at face value in terms of 'trends' on relationship dynamics. The posts I feel are completely off in terms of my reality, I tend to just ignore.

 

I've never had much male attention and when I was younger, I did find that difficult to talk about. In my real life experience, though, females (and men, for that matter) have usually been quite supportive of each other when it comes to supporting each other. So, I think I was actually more worried about talking about it than I had to be. I don't generally think online forums are great if you're feeling vulnerable about something, because people hiding behind anonymity are likely to spew out much more garbage than they would ever say to someone face to face, especially on sites that are badly moderated. Personally, I enjoy being on LS but I don't find it to be a place where I would discuss my own issues. I've found other sites where I can do that in what I perceive as a more constructive atmosphere.

 

 

I also don't think I'm WORSE off than all the people you mentioned. Bad luck, or misery, or frustration with one's life, is not a zero sum game. I am neither better nor worse off than anyone else, because we're not on a ladder, and our emotions aren't determined by our place on that ladder.

 

Like I said before, I may be *objectively* better off, but only if I value those things I happen to have. As it is, I'd trade a lot of the things I have for a lot of the things I want. I could care less about having a college education, if I had a loving family. I could care less about my income, if I had someone just to share my life with.

 

I just think it's a very bizarre idea that you should be happy with your life, just because someone else might be happy with your life. Should I tell someone that they don't get to seek a divorce from their husband because some other woman would be happy with him?? I also have no idea how I'm self-centered about my own life. Do we not get to be want things in our lives?

 

Like I said before, to me it's not about me having to be happy because others would be happy with my life. It's also not a ladder, as you say. But to me, the key issue (and I do apply this to myself) is that some people make more out of their opportunities and their starting points than others. Sometimes when I feel low, I pull out a couple of news clips I have saved about people who were wanting for all sorts of things, and who were in very difficult positions, and who worked really hard to change their conditions. I am frequently humbled by such stories, and I find that I can learn from them. For me personally, it does come down to that a-word that you are sick of. I know, and have experienced, that others can make much more out of a situation than I can myself simply because they have a more constructive perspective than me - they saw opportunities where I saw hindrances, they saw possibilities for making it work where I saw reasons that it wouldn't work. I get especially humbled when those who have very difficult social or material starting points have those attitudes.

 

I also wanted a loving family. While my mother loves me in her way, my family is very dysfunctional and the best way to cope for me has been to stay away from them. Now, I can choose to focus on that, and envy all the people who come from solid, healthy homes, pondering that fact that I probably hadn't reached a stage of suicide attempt if I had had a healthy home, or I can chose to adapt to my life situation and make the best of it and focus on what I do have, and the opportunities I actually can create to achieve more of my wants. It's a combination of appreciating what you have, being focussed on opportunities rather than negatives, and not obsess about what you can't have. It's not always easy, but it's the more constructive path to me.

 

 

 

 

Well.... I've tried counseling with 5 different therapists, ranging from a few sessions to 8 months steady (at least once a month.)

 

And yeah, I followed those options, but as I've explained before, money is the BIG obstacle. Even with the resources the poster gave, I can't afford it. The lowest sliding scale I could find was $100 a session, and they have no therapists available past 6 pm (which is when I work until.) I'm not sure people realize just how screwed up the health care system is, in regards to mental issues. Insurance companies won't cover it, the costs are astronomically high, the hours of operations suck... It's all well and good to say "get therapy, get help" but the reality of getting it is just insane.

 

OK, I see, that's annoying.

 

Have you found any online forums that might be a bit more conducive (than LS) to do the kind of self work that you might want to do? Would that be helpful?

 

 

I've tried to work on my social skills. I have bought DOZENS of self-help books, read thousands of articles. But that part of my brain is just broken it seems. How do you fix a broken brain?

 

It's difficult to change 'broken brains', I'm not underestimating that. I think one step in the process is breaking that down and making small and realistic action plans. Some of the things I've worked on in terms of socialisation skills are a) how to deal with mingling events at work (I used to be horrified of them and still often feel uncomfortable), b) how to be a bit more extroverted, c) how to speak more in work meetings, and d) how to feel less stressed about presentations. In each case, I focussed on a few specific strategies to try to systematically change both my thought patterns, emotional reactions, and behaviour. Have you tried anything similar in terms of putting your reading into action?

[jobaba]

No, because then I get dumped for the hottest girls. Don't you yourself say guys are going to want the hottest girl they can get? So if a guy just thinks I'm meh-cute, then the only reason he's with me is because he can't get better. As soon as he CAN, he'll ditch me, as my exes have done. Why the heck would I want that?

 

Mostly everybody wants the best they can get in terms of looks, yes.

 

So find those that don't. Even if some woman thought I was gorgeous (dare to dream), and she commented about how she only dates hot guys and calls other people unattractive all the time, I'd dump her.

 

I'm old. I don't need to deal with that sh@t.

 

From your posts, I gather you live around the Chicago area. There are 2.71 x 10^6 people in the city of Chicago. Do you them some of them are non-shallow? I bet there are. Seek and find. Looking for people to surround you in your life is kind of like being in a new city and flipping through radio stations in your car. You go through all of them, until you find a good one and put it in preset.

 

At least that's the way I'm treating it from now on.

[verhrzn]

Why not take up another martial art? Do some MMA

 

Why, so I could suck at that too?

 

Because there is much more to relationships than "hottness." Lots of people who are ugly (which you aren't, but which seems to be great bait for your constant quest for negative attention) have wonderful relationships. So do average looking people, and so do people who aren't each others physical types at all. Duh.

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

I am not being obtuse in any way. Yeah, there is more to relationships than "hotness." But sex, and physical attractiveness, is a BIG DAMN PART. And how in the world does the relationship even get going if they aren't attracted to each other? Maybe those "ugly" people have relationships because they don't think their partner is ugly!! They were lucky enough to find someone who thought they were attractive. Are you honestly claiming that people are dating/married to partners they think are flat out physically unattractive?? Your logic doesn't track.

 

 

Talking about "single life difficulties" is not what you spend your time here doing, v. Be honest, please.

 

Yeah, I'd be fascinated to hear what you think I do. "Whining," right? What exactly is the difference in your mind?

 

You don't get heat because of experiences you say you have. You get heat because you refuse to include anything other than experiences (many of which you have probably fabricated) to "prove" that you are 100% ugly, stupid, undesirable, good at nothing, good FOR nothing, friendless, etc.

 

Ya know what I never understand.... posters who come into my threads yelling at me about being negative, and then blatantly insult me. "Lazy" "nasty" "self-centered." It is the most bizarre phenomenon. "V, stop feeling negative about yourself, even though I think you're an awful, whining, annoying person who I only interact with by yelling at!"

 

Is calling me a liar (I fabricated my experiences? Really?), or nasty, or lazy, or any of the other insults you've chosen supposed to help me NOT be negative?? What exactly is your goal here? You say you want me to feel better about myself... by pointing out all the ways you think I'm awful. What??

[verhrzn]

It's a combination of appreciating what you have, being focussed on opportunities rather than negatives, and not obsess about what you can't have. It's not always easy, but it's the more constructive path to me.

 

See, I don't feel humbled by that, because I feel like if I had a different life, I COULD find opportunities. For example, if I was poor, I actually COULD get therapy. I'd be very interested in swapping lives/bodies with someone... anyone... and I'd still bet dollars to donuts they'd have a rough time with mine.

 

Not because mine is inherently "worse"... but because my situation is inherently weird. I was born into a series of weird situations. Like... I'm smart enough to recognize how unintelligent I am but not smart enough to do anything about it. I am enough of a writer to recognize good writing, but not a good enough writer to actually WRITE well. I am middle class enough that I don't qualify for a lot of "benefits," but I am not middle class enough to achieve a middle class lifestyle. Etc.

 

I guess the only part I could really achieve is the not obsessing about things I don't have.... but then my life is truly meaningless. So what then?

 

Have you found any online forums that might be a bit more conducive (than LS) to do the kind of self work that you might want to do? Would that be helpful?

 

Nope. Most of the other forums I've been on also get absolutely no traffic or regular posters, so I post a thread and get no replies before it's buried.

 

 

 

It's difficult to change 'broken brains', I'm not underestimating that. I think one step in the process is breaking that down and making small and realistic action plans. Some of the things I've worked on in terms of socialisation skills are a) how to deal with mingling events at work (I used to be horrified of them and still often feel uncomfortable), b) how to be a bit more extroverted, c) how to speak more in work meetings, and d) how to feel less stressed about presentations. In each case, I focussed on a few specific strategies to try to systematically change both my thought patterns, emotional reactions, and behaviour. Have you tried anything similar in terms of putting your reading into action?

 

I get the process of breaking it down to manageable steps, but how in the world would you fix a problem like "I don't know how to react in a social situation"? I can read facial expressions, for example, but I never know how to REACT. If I try something I learned from a book, I come across like a robot. How do you break that down?

[iris219]

I am not being obtuse in any way. Yeah, there is more to relationships than "hotness." But sex, and physical attractiveness, is a BIG DAMN PART. And how in the world does the relationship even get going if they aren't attracted to each other? Maybe those "ugly" people have relationships because they don't think their partner is ugly!! They were lucky enough to find someone who thought they were attractive. Are you honestly claiming that people are dating/married to partners they think are flat out physically unattractive?? Your logic doesn't track.

 

 

Umm...of course. I thought this was what you've been trying to dispute in all of your posts on LS, so I'm glad to see you admit this. You should stop using your appearance as the reason why you have trouble dating if you logically know that "ugly' people end up in loving relationships with partners who DO find them attractive.

 

Whether you're conventionally attractive or unattractive, there are people out there who will find you attractive. Studies have shown that people of similar attractiveness levels are genuinely attracted to others of the same level.

[verhrzn]

Umm...of course. I thought this was what you've been trying to dispute in all of your posts on LS, so I'm glad to see you admit this. You should stop using your appearance as the reason why you have trouble dating if you logically know that "ugly' people end up in loving relationships with partners who DO find them attractive.

 

Whether you're conventionally attractive or unattractive, there are people out there who will find you attractive. Studies have shown that people of similar attractiveness levels are genuinely attracted to others of the same level.

 

Well.... no, I wasn't applying that to myself. Because the key is, NO one finds me attractive.

 

I think my whole OLD experience is a perfect example of this. TMan could find nothing wrong with my profile, and yet I have gotten not one single message. Since we know OLD IS a meat market, there is only one explanation for this.

 

I think "ugly" people probably got lucky finding someone who sees them as attractive, but that doesn't mean I will get lucky, or that there even IS someone who finds me attractive. So far, the evidence is heavily in favor of "I repulse guys."

[denise_xo]

See, I don't feel humbled by that, because I feel like if I had a different life, I COULD find opportunities. For example, if I was poor, I actually COULD get therapy. I'd be very interested in swapping lives/bodies with someone... anyone... and I'd still bet dollars to donuts they'd have a rough time with mine.

 

Not because mine is inherently "worse"... but because my situation is inherently weird. I was born into a series of weird situations. Like... I'm smart enough to recognize how unintelligent I am but not smart enough to do anything about it. I am enough of a writer to recognize good writing, but not a good enough writer to actually WRITE well. I am middle class enough that I don't qualify for a lot of "benefits," but I am not middle class enough to achieve a middle class lifestyle. Etc.

 

I don't think what you describe is weird. The vast majority of people find it easier to recognise quality work or performance than to perform the same task themselves. I can intuitively recognise the difference between a good actor and a poor actor, but my own attempt at acting in my late teens was a disaster this is a very well known concept in pedagogical literature, so it really isn't weird at all. Think of literary critics, for example - there are tons of people who make money critiquing books, although they are not authors themselves.

 

Likewise, it is very normal to recognise one's short comings without being able to act on them, especially as it happens. I'm not sure why you're finding this weird? But if you think that this is a sign that you are not smart enough to do something about it, I think you have your indicators wrong. Everyone has those experiences, because, to use a cliche, it is literally easier said (or, more to the point here, perceived or recognised) than done. That doesn't mean that it is generally impossible to change it - if that was the case, there would be no individual human development.

 

Lots of people live in the 'lower middle class' category.

 

I get the process of breaking it down to manageable steps, but how in the world would you fix a problem like "I don't know how to react in a social situation"? I can read facial expressions, for example, but I never know how to REACT. If I try something I learned from a book, I come across like a robot. How do you break that down?

 

As in, you don't know what to say? If yes, what is stopping you? Is it general social anxiety?

[tman666]

NO one finds me attractive.

 

I think this sort of a slap in the face to everyone, on LS and otherwise, who has suggested, or told you outright, that you are an attractive girl. So what is it? Are we not good enough to have our opinions count?

 

I'll second the advice that you need to stop thinking about this in terms of black and white extremes. Just because you haven't gotten the results you want (yet), doesn't mean that you must inherently be awful in every way, shape, and form.

 

You already know what my theory is. I just think that you're caught in kind of a weird eddy area of the dating world. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're ugly, or have an awful personality, or that something is wrong with you.

[Chocolat]

I call BS on this whole thread,V. If you want to throw in the towel, then just do so, You don't need the approval of a bunch of strangers on the Internet.

 

But I am not convinced that's what you want. Rather, you seem to thrive on arguing with people. And you are so invested in proving them wrong that you don't even give passing thought to what you can do to improve your life. And, yes, this can happen without expensive therapy, although it may require more work on your part. But if you've got the time to argue against yourself for 22 pages, then surely you have the timey to do something for yourself.

 

The attitude you project here is not just negative but incredibly selfish and self-centered. You even argued that your circumstances are worse than those of people living in abject poverty, with missing limbs, and in constant fear for their lives. This is why I recommended that you do volunteer work Perhaps seeing others whose lives are far less hopeful than yours would help you frame your own life more positively. At a minimum, you would be helping others, which might force you to think about someone other than yourself.

 

Nothing will change until you do.

[McGuffin]

No, because then I get dumped for the hottest girls. Don't you yourself say guys are going to want the hottest girl they can get? So if a guy just thinks I'm meh-cute, then the only reason he's with me is because he can't get better. As soon as he CAN, he'll ditch me, as my exes have done. Why the heck would I want that?

 

If that were true, no men would ever stay with their women above ages 40 - 50. Good men and women are attracted to their partners for more than just their looks and will not leave for something as insignificant as a prettier face.

 

Even some of the hottest women get dumped for someone else or cheated on. (Jennifer Aniston, Elizabeth Hurley to name just two.) That's why you have to learn how to pick the right type of men.

[verhrzn]

I don't think what you describe is weird. The vast majority of people find it easier to recognise quality work or performance than to perform the same task themselves. I can intuitively recognise the difference between a good actor and a poor actor, but my own attempt at acting in my late teens was a disaster this is a very well known concept in pedagogical literature, so it really isn't weird at all. Think of literary critics, for example - there are tons of people who make money critiquing books, although they are not authors themselves.

 

Perhaps, but I think I'm weird in that I'm like that with EVERYthing. I think I mentioned it a few pages back, but my most unique trait is my self-awareness. I think a lot of people can recognize they're not the best in something yet still believe they are good or talented at something even if they are, well, not. My self-awareness is that I am accurately aware of how NOT good I am. For example, a friend of mine doesn't think she's Celine Dion but considers herself to have a good voice. She... ahem, doesn't have a BAD voice. But it's not as good as she thinks it is. My brain does not allow such illusions. I guess that's the best way I can describe it.

 

As in, you don't know what to say? If yes, what is stopping you? Is it general social anxiety?

 

Say, react. Do I give them a hug? Do I smile? Do I smile in a goofy way or a neat way?

 

I think it's more I have no idea how to react to manipulation and social politics. Instances where I know someone is lying... but no one is challenging the person on the lie. Should I challenge them? Is it a socially acceptable lie? How do I challenge them?

 

Or even contacting friends. I constantly have anxiety around contacting people socially because I believe I am annoying or bothering them. I can't TELL if someone is annoyed, or if I'm just reading too much into it. On and on go the social complexities that I don't understand how to handle.

[Scott68]

I think my GF is the absolute most beautiful woman I have ever seen and she will be turning 47 soon. She is every bit as amazing as any 20 or 30 something there is.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Originally Posted by verhrzn

NO one finds me attractive.

 

I think this sort of a slap in the face to everyone, on LS and otherwise, who has suggested, or told you outright, that you are an attractive girl.

 

Real evidence like this is why I question the veracity of all your horror stories about people shrinking back in horror when they encounter you.

 

I bet more than 100 different people here, including me, have told you that you are attractive and you certainly are not fat or ugly by ANY standards. But you play like this is not the case.

 

Not honest.

[verhrzn]

I call BS on this whole thread,V. If you want to throw in the towel, then just do so, You don't need the approval of a bunch of strangers on the Internet.

 

But I am not convinced that's what you want. Rather, you seem to thrive on arguing with people. And you are so invested in proving them wrong that you don't even give passing thought to what you can do to improve your life. And, yes, this can happen without expensive therapy, although it may require more work on your part. But if you've got the time to argue against yourself for 22 pages, then surely you have the timey to do something for yourself.

 

The attitude you project here is not just negative but incredibly selfish and self-centered. You even argued that your circumstances are worse than those of people living in abject poverty, with missing limbs, and in constant fear for their lives. This is why I recommended that you do volunteer work Perhaps seeing others whose lives are far less hopeful than yours would help you frame your own life more positively. At a minimum, you would be helping others, which might force you to think about someone other than yourself.

 

Actually, weird as it sounds, I DO want permission. If nothing else, people giving me permission would mean no one would argue with me anymore. What I've always desired out of this forum is sympathy... trying to find someone who understands my situation, who can acknowledge my experience. Even just a "Yeah it really sucks to be ugly" comment can make me feel SO much better.

 

But I rarely get sympathy, because people are too busy arguing about how I'm a liar/wrong/negative/what have you. If people gave me permission, they'd be finally acknowledging my experiences, and maybe then I could get some sympathy. So instead of constantly hearing "Yeah change already and stop whining!" I could finally hear "That sucks, I know how you feel." That would be so, so, so nice.

 

*Sigh* And you didn't see me talking about how I HAD done volunteering, and I actually made the people around me feel worse? The only volunteering that seems to work for me is the type where I don't interact with people at all... as in, I give money or supplies and that's it. And no, volunteering DIDN'T make me focus on someone else, because I was too busy tripping all over my awkward social skills, and realizing how uncomfortable I was making people, and then feeling guilty and angry at myself all over again...

 

And I already addressed the idea that I have it "worse." I DON'T have it "worse" because the world is not a ladder. I have it "different," and until you could body swap me with another person, there is no way to tell if they'd be happier/sadder in my life or me in theirs.