Is There An Age To 'Throw In the Towel' for Women?

[McGuffin]

I get the process of breaking it down to manageable steps, but how in the world would you fix a problem like "I don't know how to react in a social situation"? I can read facial expressions, for example, but I never know how to REACT. If I try something I learned from a book, I come across like a robot. How do you break that down?

 

What I've read, which makes sense because it works for everything else, is just to practice. You can find events and groups to go to with people who have your own interests and practice talking to them. Heck, go to ones that are for stuff you're not interested in at all, so if you fail, you don't have to worry about seeing them again.

 

I was never able to bring myself to try that advice, because I really dislike talking to people so much that I can't bring myself to want try it. Not that long ago, I realized that I like myself as I am, and if other people don't, it's their problem, not mine. I have much fewer problems interacting socially and am much less nervous now that I stopped trying to live up to societal expectations.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Actually, weird as it sounds, I DO want permission. If nothing else, people giving me permission would mean no one would argue with me anymore. What I've always desired out of this forum is sympathy... trying to find someone who understands my situation, who can acknowledge my experience. Even just a "Yeah it really sucks to be ugly" comment can make me feel SO much better.

 

Since you're not actually ugly, or fat (and you are corresponding here with people who really ARE burdened with those problems), you are just fishing for attention and sympathy using fake bait. It's not working, is it.

 

MANY times, though, people HAVE said "I know how you feel" in MANY different ways. You just don't accept that, because they don't include the "you are so ugly" part you are trying to corner us all into,

 

*Sigh* And you didn't see me talking about how I HAD done volunteering, and I actually made the people around me feel worse? The only volunteering that seems to work for me is the type where I don't interact with people at all... as in, I give money or supplies and that's it.

 

*Sigh*

 

There are many volunteer opportunities that are not about social interactions. Like doing work.

 

And, once again, here you go with your accounts of people telling you outright how abominable you are.

 

Unusual!

 

I have it "different," and until you could body swap me with another person, there is no way to tell if they'd be happier/sadder in my life or me in theirs.

 

Um … it's a fact that you are well aware of that "happiness" and "sadness" don't come from what you look like or what you have. Why do you insist on pretending that you believe it does.

[Chocolat]

Actually, weird as it sounds, I DO want permission. If nothing else, people giving me permission would mean no one would argue with me anymore. What I've always desired out of this forum is sympathy... trying to find someone who understands my situation, who can acknowledge my experience. Even just a "Yeah it really sucks to be ugly" comment can make me feel SO much better.

 

Fine. You have my permission to throw in the towel. And you have my sympathy because I truly believe it must suck to be you, even if my reasons are not the same as yours for coming to that conclusion.

 

 

*Sigh* And you didn't see me talking about how I HAD done volunteering, and I actually made the people around me feel worse?

 

Yes, I did see this. Get over it. Volunteering is about doing something for someone else. Figure out what you need to change so the people don't feel worse. In general, a smile and a willingness to listen is all it takes. That's why I suggested volunteering at hospice. These are patients who are desperate for companionship. Bring a book and read to one, or play a game, or help someone eat her lunch. Whatever. Everything is not about you.

[denise_xo]

Perhaps, but I think I'm weird in that I'm like that with EVERYthing. I think I mentioned it a few pages back, but my most unique trait is my self-awareness. I think a lot of people can recognize they're not the best in something yet still believe they are good or talented at something even if they are, well, not. My self-awareness is that I am accurately aware of how NOT good I am. For example, a friend of mine doesn't think she's Celine Dion but considers herself to have a good voice. She... ahem, doesn't have a BAD voice. But it's not as good as she thinks it is. My brain does not allow such illusions. I guess that's the best way I can describe it.

 

Right. Well, I would frame that as an 'attention disorder' no seriously, what I mean is this: I used to be exactly like that. I used to be overly aware of all my mistakes, and in addition, of all the ways in which I could be negatively perceived (even when I wasn't, necessarily). And I used to be very aware of the Celine Dion wannabes, as well.

 

Long story short: I worked A LOT to change that thinking pattern. I initially resisted this, because I thought that this awareness was a strength and that I could see things that others couldn't see, and that this was a good thing. What I finally learned, however, was that the particular way that I employed that self awareness was an obstacle for me to succeed in different ways. One of the reasons for this is that to achieve new things, you have to put yourself out there and take risks, and my self awareness was preventing me from fully doing that because it was constantly monitoring for potential ways to critique myself and getting hung up in that. Another reason was that successful action is, IME (and also according to various neuroscientists) a balance of embodied action, thought and awareness, and emotional engagement. Too much of one thing isn't necessarily fruitful. So I had to 'tune down' my awareness/thought patterns and work on 'tuning in' to other parts that were necessary for me to draw upon in decision making processes and simply doing various stuff that life asks you to do. That is a very different thing from allowing 'illusions', though.

 

Say, react. Do I give them a hug? Do I smile? Do I smile in a goofy way or a neat way?

 

I think it's more I have no idea how to react to manipulation and social politics. Instances where I know someone is lying... but no one is challenging the person on the lie. Should I challenge them? Is it a socially acceptable lie? How do I challenge them?

 

Or even contacting friends. I constantly have anxiety around contacting people socially because I believe I am annoying or bothering them. I can't TELL if someone is annoyed, or if I'm just reading too much into it. On and on go the social complexities that I don't understand how to handle.

 

OK, there's quite a few things here to untangle. On the first and second paragraph, stuff like that is a bit context dependent. There are different ways in which to call people out on a life (one of my favourites is acting innocent), and there are times when you might choose not to point it out. And knowing when to do what isn't set in stone. I draw on a mix of experience and advice I've been given or read when taking those decisions. Sometimes I mess up. Sometimes it works.

 

On the latter paragraph: I think that's partially a product of an overactive self awareness. I would simplify it like this: In the context of friends, take as a point of departure that people want to spend time with you. If they don't, assume that they will let you know in a way where it will be clear to you. And then leave all the other thought stuff to the side.

[McGuffin]

But I rarely get sympathy, because people are too busy arguing about how I'm a liar/wrong/negative/what have you. If people gave me permission, they'd be finally acknowledging my experiences, and maybe then I could get some sympathy. So instead of constantly hearing "Yeah change already and stop whining!" I could finally hear "That sucks, I know how you feel." That would be so, so, so nice.

 

I think I've said I can relate to your situation a couple times and you pretty much ignored me...

[verhrzn]

What I've read, which makes sense because it works for everything else, is just to practice. You can find events and groups to go to with people who have your own interests and practice talking to them. Heck, go to ones that are for stuff you're not interested in at all, so if you fail, you don't have to worry about seeing them again.

 

Okay here I go arguing again but... I already do that. I have social events most nights. I go to parties, hobby clubs, dinners, coffee with individuals, conventions etc. I feel like I get a LOT of practice but... I still don't understand it. Over the last year I actually feel like I'm getting WORSE at it.

 

MANY times, though, people HAVE said "I know how you feel" in MANY different ways. You just don't accept that, because they don't include the "you are so ugly" part you are trying to corner us all into.

 

Since being an ugly woman is a central part of knowing how I feel, I'm really not sure people could say "I know how you feel" while denying that part.

 

There are many volunteer opportunities that are not about social interactions. Like doing work.

 

And, once again, here you go with your accounts of people telling you outright how abominable you are.

 

Unusual!

 

No, they do the polite thing of "We think your strengths are better used elsewhere."

 

And I already said I give money and supplies. So what is a volunteering activity that doesn't involve social interaction, or giving money/supplies? (I sew baby blankets once a month for example.)

[iris219]

Perhaps, but I think I'm weird in that I'm like that with EVERYthing. I think I mentioned it a few pages back, but my most unique trait is my self-awareness. I think a lot of people can recognize they're not the best in something yet still believe they are good or talented at something even if they are, well, not. My self-awareness is that I am accurately aware of how NOT good I am. For example, a friend of mine doesn't think she's Celine Dion but considers herself to have a good voice. She... ahem, doesn't have a BAD voice. But it's not as good as she thinks it is. My brain does not allow such illusions. I guess that's the best way I can describe it.

 

Why do you have be the best or even good at something if you enjoy it? You’ve mentioned this before and I’ve never understood it.

 

So what if your friend isn’t the best singer? It’s great that she gets satisfaction from it. Are you more annoyed by the fact that she doesn’t seem aware of the fact that she’s not an expert? I suspect she DOES know this. You underestimate people. Most people realize their lack of talent, but they don’t care because their hobbies bring them pleasure. Most people don’t care about being the best at anything because most people don’t have that ability; most people are average. That doesn’t mean they can’t live fulfilling lives.

 

I have lots of interests and hobbies that I’m not the best at, but I love doing them so it doesn’t matter. I enjoy running, but after 2 miles I’m done. I think I’m one of those rare people who, even with intense training, would never be able to run even a half marathon. I continue to run, however, and I’m fine with my limited ability.

[runningfar]

I enjoy running, but after 2 miles I’m done. I think I’m one of those rare people who, even with intense training, would never be able to run even a half marathon. I continue to run, however, and I’m fine with my limited ability.

 

Not on topic, but anyone who can run at all can run a half marathon with proper gradually increasing training IF they want to... Slow down, get longer runs in, make sure you're out most days... Not saying you have to, but don't sell yourself short. Endurance isn't like speed... it's not only for the talented. (Though people can get much faster than they are otherwise, some truly will never be fast.)

 

Geez, I am short and quite fat and not built like a runner, and I have run up to 60 miles. I have a friend who has back issues and it's painful but she has run several marathons. It's really desire more than ability, if you can run at all.

[Els]

...Oookaay, yeah, it really sucks to be ugly.

 

Did that help you at all, V? :/

[McGuffin]

Okay here I go arguing again but... I already do that. I have social events most nights. I go to parties, hobby clubs, dinners, coffee with individuals, conventions etc. I feel like I get a LOT of practice but... I still don't understand it. Over the last year I actually feel like I'm getting WORSE at it.

 

That's impressive. You're doing something I'm not able to do. I wish you could feel proud of yourself for that.

 

I think denise_xo has a good point. Maybe your self-awareness is a hindrance. You might do better if you could train that internal voice to shut up when it's telling you how bad you're doing. Have you ever pursued a method to be less self-aware?

[verhrzn]

...Oookaay, yeah, it really sucks to be ugly.

 

Did that help you at all, V? :/

 

Yes! It makes me feel validated. It's like.... standing in the middle of a room and screaming and having no one notice. Having someone acknowledge your truth... even if it's a bad truth... is far better than being ignored.

 

And just knowing that someone else realizes what a sucky thing is it to be ugly. We're SO terrified in our culture to be ugly. Ugly is an insult, ugly is a burden and is so often linked with other bad traits (ugly is lazy, ugly is stupid, ugly is mean or creepy or evil), that we all shy away from just calling a spade a spade.

 

I would rather face the truth than live a lie. I would rather look in the mirror and say "Yep, you're unattractive" then go my entire life thinking I'm hot stuff, as guys continue to ignore me.

 

You see guys on this forum who are constantly saying how DUH that woman is single, she's fat and ugly, how does she honestly think she's worth dating? I will do anything to avoid being that woman. So... it just feels good to have my decision be acknowledged and sympathetic with.

[verhrzn]

That's impressive. You're doing something I'm not able to do. I wish you could feel proud of yourself for that.

 

I think denise_xo has a good point. Maybe your self-awareness is a hindrance. You might do better if you could train that internal voice to shut up when it's telling you how bad you're doing. Have you ever pursued a method to be less self-aware?

 

Sorry I've ignored you, sometimes I miss smaller posts. But why in the world would I want to be LESS aware?

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

I have lots of interests and hobbies that I’m not the best at, but I love doing them so it doesn’t matter.

 

So do I. I am even involved in one which is highly competitive and I know I will never reach the top, but I still keep doing it - and getting better and better (when I began I had anti-talent at it) - and winning more. I will never be the World Champion, or even probably the top in my region. But I do love it and also love the triumphs I have.

 

I think that's the way it is. That's how we get through this life.

[Els]

Yes! It makes me feel validated. It's like.... standing in the middle of a room and screaming and having no one notice. Having someone acknowledge your truth... even if it's a bad truth... is far better than being ignored.

 

And just knowing that someone else realizes what a sucky thing is it to be ugly. We're SO terrified in our culture to be ugly. Ugly is an insult, ugly is a burden and is so often linked with other bad traits (ugly is lazy, ugly is stupid, ugly is mean or creepy or evil), that we all shy away from just calling a spade a spade.

 

I would rather face the truth than live a lie. I would rather look in the mirror and say "Yep, you're unattractive" then go my entire life thinking I'm hot stuff, as guys continue to ignore me.

 

You see guys on this forum who are constantly saying how DUH that woman is single, she's fat and ugly, how does she honestly think she's worth dating? I will do anything to avoid being that woman. So... it just feels good to have my decision be acknowledged and sympathetic with.

 

Well, if that's genuinely what you want to believe, I don't see why not. Now, having attained that small success of getting someone to agree that you're 'ugly', where do you intend to go from there? Are you happy?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Nirvana - 'Lithium' - YouTube

 

I'm so happy 'cause today

I found my friends

They're in my head

I'm so ugly, that's okay

'Cause so are you

Broke our mirrors

Sunday morning is everyday

For all I care

And I'm not scared

Light my candles, in a daze

'Cause I've found God

 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah

 

I'm so lonely, that's ok

I shaved my head

And I'm not sad

And just maybe

I'm to blame for all I've heard

I'm not sure

I'm so excited

I can't wait to meet you there

And I don't care

I'm so horny, that's okay

My will is good

 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah

 

I like it I'm not gonna crack

I miss you I'm not gonna crack

I love you I'm not gonna crack

I killed you I'm not gonna crack

 

I like it I'm not gonna crack

I miss you I'm not gonna crack

I love you I'm not gonna crack

I killed you I'm not gonna crack

 

I'm so happy 'cause today

I found my friends

They're in my head

I'm so ugly, but that's okay

'Cause so are you

Broke our mirrors

Sunday morning is everyday

For all I care

And I'm not scared

Light my candles in a daze

'Cause I've found god

 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah

 

I like it I'm not gonna crack

I miss you I'm not gonna crack

I love you I'm not gonna crack

I killed you I'm not gonna crack

 

I like it I'm not gonna crack

I miss you I'm not gonna crack

I love you I'm not gonna crack

I killed you I'm not gonna crack

 

Nirvana

Kurt Cobain

[McGuffin]

Sorry I've ignored you, sometimes I miss smaller posts. But why in the world would I want to be LESS aware?

 

You said people who are less self-aware seem happier. I think you're completely right. So would it be such a bad thing to trade some self awareness for some happiness?

 

You're not me, but when I think about that question, I'd rather be a little delusional and happy than totally self-aware and unhappy. Heck, I'm probably happy because I am at least a little delusional. I know my thighs are too fat even though people tell me otherwise. But as long as I don't see a mirror, I can walk around believing that they're not. I love skinny mirrors that let me pretend I don't have fat thighs. It the moments where I really look in the mirror and think about my too-fat thighs (especially wearing a bathing suit), it's a complete downer. Or when I see some article in a beauty magaize about "thunder thighs". You're right that it sucks to not look how you want to look. There are moments when I feel like no guy could be attracted to that. I've wanted to get rid of them since I was a teen. I'm over 30, so the chances of that happening now with decreased metabolism that comes with age are a lot lower. So I guess I'm glad I can be a little delusional, because if I was always aware of my gross, fat thighs, I'd never be happy.

[denise_xo]

You said people who are less self-aware seem happier. I think you're completely right. So would it be such a bad thing to trade some self awareness for some happiness?

 

You're not me, but when I think about that question, I'd rather be a little delusional and happy than totally self-aware and unhappy. Heck, I'm probably happy because I am at least a little delusional. I know my thighs are too fat even though people tell me otherwise. But as long as I don't see a mirror, I can walk around believing that they're not. Even in the right mirrors, I can pretend I don't have fat thighs. It the moments where I really look in the mirror and think about my too-fat thighs (especially wearing a bathing suit), it's a real bummer. Or when I see some article in a beauty magaize about "thunder thighs". You're right that it sucks to not look how you want to look. There are moments when I feel like no guy could be attracted to that. I've wanted to get rid of them since I was a teen. I'm over 30, so the chances of that happening now with decreased metabolism that comes with age are a lot lower. So I guess I'm glad I can be a little delusional, because if I was always aware of my gross, fat thighs, I'd never be happy.

 

The thing is, though, the trade isn't about illusions versus happiness. The idea that you have to be delusional to be happy is based on a false dichotomy. I strongly believe that true happiness comes from strong level of awareness, but of a very different kind that V described (which I tried to outline a little bit above in a previous post).

[Mme. Chaucer]

I happen to subscribe to the old Socratic saw: "The unexamined life is not worth living." (I'm just full of quotations today).

 

But examining ones life through either rose or poop colored glasses does not count as actual examination. THAT is usually nothing deeper than willful delusion.

[McGuffin]

The thing is, though, the trade isn't about illusions versus happiness. The idea that you have to be delusional to be happy is based on a false dichotomy. I strongly believe that true happiness comes from strong level of awareness, but of a very different kind that V described (which I tried to outline a little bit above in a previous post).

 

I think you're actually talking about the same things, but V thinks of it in a different way.

[McGuffin]

Oh, V I forgot to say I'm glad you're not ignoring me on purpose.

 

I think I know where you're coming from on it not mattering whether people tell you you're not ugly. There are features I don't like about myself that other people tell me they do like, and it doesn't really change that I don't like them. I can accept them, but I still don't like them.

 

I've never seen you, so I'm willing to accept your premise that you're ugly. Whether or not that seems true for other people, it's true for you. We know ugly people can be happy. So the question is, what can you do to be happy despite having looks you don't like?

[denise_xo]

I think you're actually talking about the same things, but V thinks of it in a different way.

 

Right. What I meant was that it's not an issue of 'lowering' your awareness and substituting it with illusions. It's about employing awareness in a different way. In other words, it's not dumbing things down - it's being smarter about putting it to use

[verhrzn]

Right. What I meant was that it's not an issue of 'lowering' your awareness and substituting it with illusions. It's about employing awareness in a different way. In other words, it's not dumbing things down - it's being smarter about putting it to use

 

I'm not sure I follow this, could you elaborate on it? (I didn't really understand it in your earlier post either.)

 

 

I think I know where you're coming from on it not mattering whether people tell you you're not ugly. There are features I don't like about myself that other people tell me they do like, and it doesn't really change that I don't like them. I can accept them, but I still don't like them.

 

I've never seen you, so I'm willing to accept your premise that you're ugly. Whether or not that seems true for other people, it's true for you. We know ugly people can be happy. So the question is, what can you do to be happy despite having looks you don't like?

 

I really don't think it's a matter of different tastes. I assume people on this forum (and it's ONLY this forum, it's never real life) tell me I'm attractive because they're nice, not because that's actually what they think. They are playing the social game of not wanting to come across like a shallow jerk, which ya know, is all well and good so long as they acknowledge that's what they're doing.

 

Well, as I said way earlier in the thread, I think if I had money, it wouldn't matter if I was ugly. I could fix my ugliness, or I could get the things that I want without needing a guy to find me attractive. (I could buy my own house, own a dog, have my own kids.) Hell, if I had enough money, I could BUY a man.

 

But without money OR looks, I feel like I'm facing all roadblocks. When you're ugly and average-intelligence, what avenues are really available to you for advancement?

[Bob_Funk]

Women peak between 17 and 20 (talking about the degree of lust guys will feel towards them) but can maintain most of their looks until 30 or so as long as they don't get fat. After that, you better be doing some serious resistance training if you want to have anywhere near the appeal that you used to.

 

That being said, an average 45 year old woman still has WAY more value than an average 25 year old guy. So you really have nothing to complain about.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Bob_Funk

[McGuffin]

I really don't think it's a matter of different tastes. I assume people on this forum (and it's ONLY this forum, it's never real life) tell me I'm attractive because they're nice, not because that's actually what they think. They are playing the social game of not wanting to come across like a shallow jerk, which ya know, is all well and good so long as they acknowledge that's what they're doing.

 

Well, as I said way earlier in the thread, I think if I had money, it wouldn't matter if I was ugly. I could fix my ugliness, or I could get the things that I want without needing a guy to find me attractive. (I could buy my own house, own a dog, have my own kids.) Hell, if I had enough money, I could BUY a man.

 

But without money OR looks, I feel like I'm facing all roadblocks. When you're ugly and average-intelligence, what avenues are really available to you for advancement?

 

Are the things that money or looks can get the only things that will make you happy? Is there nothing you enjoy doing just for yourself that you could do more of? Or some goal short of married with kids and a house that you could realistically pursue to make you even a fraction happier than you are now?

[jobaba]

I really don't think it's a matter of different tastes. I assume people on this forum (and it's ONLY this forum, it's never real life) tell me I'm attractive because they're nice, not because that's actually what they think. They are playing the social game of not wanting to come across like a shallow jerk, which ya know, is all well and good so long as they acknowledge that's what they're doing.

 

 

I'll be honest with you V. I've been thinking about this 'locked in mentality' thing lately.

 

You're probably going to think like this until the day you die. That you're ugly and nobody wants you that is. Chances are, you'll find a guy, get married, but you're mentality will stay the same.

 

I'm similar, though not as bad as you. I don't think I'm attractive. I hate looking at pictures of myself, etc.

 

But it wasn't always like this. I can remember being a kid and looking at pictures of myself and not thinking anything. You were probably the same. So, society did this to you. At this point, the damage is done, and it is significant. Is there a way to undo the damage? I don't know.

 

Hypnosis maybe?

 

Would you have a happier life and get more sh@t done if you had a more positive image? If you thought you were hot and confidence. Maybe. Probably not.

 

Does thinking positive really help you attract more people and lead to a more fulfilling life? Not sure it does.

 

Something to consider.