Is There An Age To 'Throw In the Towel' for Women?

[verhrzn]

Are the things that money or looks can get the only things that will make you happy? Is there nothing you enjoy doing just for yourself that you could do more of? Or some goal short of married with kids and a house that you could realistically pursue to make you even a fraction happier than you are now?

 

.... Not really. The house is actually mostly so I can have a dog. My real goal in life is love. Family-like love. Friendship-love is nice, but friends start developing their own families and lives. So, love from a boyfriend/husband, love from children, even love from an animal companion is what I've always wanted.

 

I used to have career goals until I realized I'm just not intelligent enough to pursue them. I don't really enjoy doing anything for myself, because I don't get enjoyment unless I'm good (NOT the best, but GOOD) at something, but I'm not good at anything.

 

For example, when I was a kid I used to love writing. But as I grew up and became more exposed to novels and stories, I realized just how pathetic and pedestrian my writing is, and so I no longer enjoy it. I don't enjoy pointless endeavors; writing just for the sake of writing, when I read back on it, cringe, throw it away, just seems pointless.

 

So if I can't pursue a career I enjoy, can't have family love, and am worthless at my hobbies... I guess I'm not sure what goals are really left.

[Bob_Funk]

I don't bait compliments! God, what does it take for you people to believe me? I've already given proof about my OLD experience... if there's nothing wrong with my profile, why am I getting no messages?

 

So what if there are women less attractive than me in happy relationships? There are poorer people than me who win the lottery! It's just so ridiculous to say that just because it works for THEM, it will work for ME. For all you know, the women in those relationships are being settled for (like I was), or they never have sex, or the guy is deeply insecure and codependent... on and on. There are LOTS of reasons an ugly person could end up in a relationship, but just because ONE does, doesn't mean we ALL will.

 

How about you just knock off your pathetic attempts to stop appearing shallow?

 

There have been numerous experiments done in which guys have put up profiles of morbidly obese, handicapped, and just plain hideous females and still received countless messages from thin decent looking guys.

 

You know, you could just dress slutty and message guys first. OMG, so much effort.

[Lonely Ronin]

I used to have career goals until I realized I'm just not intelligent enough to pursue them. I don't really enjoy doing anything for myself, because I don't get enjoyment unless I'm good (NOT the best, but GOOD) at something, but I'm not good at anything.

 

 

Don't lie, you don't want to just be good, you want to be exceptional. This is your biggest problem, and it effects all aspects of your life. This compulsion of yours is ruining your life. You need real help, and you need to learn that there are many very positive shades of grey, not just one or two.

[verhrzn]

There have been numerous experiments done in which guys have put up profiles of morbidly obese, handicapped, and just plain hideous females and still received countless messages from thin decent looking guys.

 

You know, you could just dress slutty and message guys first. OMG, so much effort.

 

... I'm in a corset and I've messaged 12 guys in the last 2 days with no responses. So, gee, looks like I'm worse than a fake, obese, hideous female. Thanks.

 

Don't lie, you don't want to just be good, you want to be exceptional. This is your biggest problem, and it effects all aspects of your life. This compulsion of yours is ruining your life. You need real help, and you need to learn that there are many very positive shades of grey, not just one or two.

 

No, I really don't want to be exceptional, the BEST. I just want to be "talented." I want to be able to read my writing without flinching, or look at my black belt group and feel embarrassed beyond belief how I look beside all the rest of em. I just want to be GOOD, why is that so terrible?

[Bob_Funk]

... I'm in a corset and I've messaged 12 guys in the last 2 days with no responses. So, gee, looks like I'm worse than a fake, obese, hideous female. Thanks.

 

No, you're actually sexy based on the two pics I've seen. I can't imagine a guy turning that down.

 

Maybe these guys think you'll be too much effort. Why not ask them to come over and "hang out?"

[McGuffin]

.... Not really. The house is actually mostly so I can have a dog.

 

Have you looked at other options to have a dog other than owning a house? I know commercial rentals make it almost impossible to afford pets (why the hell do you need to pay extra rent for pets anyway???). But there are some private rentals that don't do that. You might not luck out at first. But if you kept looking, you might find a place with a yard that charges reasonable rent. I've found a couple places rented by private owners who allowed pets without increasing rent. I met an elderly lady last time I went rental hunting who was a dog-lover and wouldn't rent her place with a big yard to anyone who didn't have a dog.

 

If you can find a way to get a dog, I recommend it. It's almost impossible not to be happy around a dog. My dog makes me happy.

 

My real goal in life is love. Family-like love. Friendship-love is nice, but friends start developing their own families and lives. So, love from a boyfriend/husband, love from children, even love from an animal companion is what I've always wanted.

 

The downer here is that I think when someone has only a goal of love, marriage, family, that's it's practically a repellent for finding someone.

 

People are attracted to people with other personal goals. I think you'll need to come up with a personal goal like getting a book or short story published and just work on it. Or whatever you think is a good goal. It doesn't even have to be entirely realistic, just something to motivate you.

 

I think the difference between people who are good at something vs not good is determination not to give up. Sure, some people are born good at some things, but other people have to succeed by just not giving up.

 

Do you write fan fic? You said you cosplay and write, so I figure maybe you do fan fic. If not, you ought to try it, because you can get a lot of feedback and join groups where people help each other improve their writing skills. Most writers are not the greatest, but they still have fun. Some are aspiring professionals and even use fan fic to test out plot lines they want to use with their original characters in order to publish.

[denise_xo]

I'm not sure I follow this, could you elaborate on it? (I didn't really understand it in your earlier post either.)

 

In short, the issue is about quality rather than quantity. You can employ self awareness in destructive ways, and constructive ways. I think you're doing too much of the former.

 

.... Not really. The house is actually mostly so I can have a dog. My real goal in life is love. Family-like love. Friendship-love is nice, but friends start developing their own families and lives. So, love from a boyfriend/husband, love from children, even love from an animal companion is what I've always wanted.

 

The thing is, though, for that to happen I think you have to love yourself first. But you seem (at least here) so full of self contempt.

 

I used to have career goals until I realized I'm just not intelligent enough to pursue them. I don't really enjoy doing anything for myself, because I don't get enjoyment unless I'm good (NOT the best, but GOOD) at something, but I'm not good at anything.

 

For example, when I was a kid I used to love writing. But as I grew up and became more exposed to novels and stories, I realized just how pathetic and pedestrian my writing is, and so I no longer enjoy it. I don't enjoy pointless endeavors; writing just for the sake of writing, when I read back on it, cringe, throw it away, just seems pointless.

 

Again, this is a stereotypical experience that lots of people go through. Tons of my university students react that way when they first start college. They're used to doing fairly well without putting that much work into it, and all of a sudden the rug is pulled out from under their feet because they haven't cracked the codes yet.

 

People who have published novels have often written and systematically worked on improving their writing for many years, and have experienced tons of rejections before they were published. I work with experienced academics who get their publications rejected on a regular basis. It's part of the course. The cringe and throw it away part sounds more like your default self destructive pattern, though.

Edited July 26, 2012 by denise_xo

[verhrzn]

Have you looked at other options to have a dog other than owning a house? I know commercial rentals make it almost impossible to afford pets (why the hell do you need to pay extra rent for pets anyway???). But there are some private rentals that don't do that. You might not luck out at first. But if you kept looking, you might find a place with a yard that charges reasonable rent. I've found a couple places rented by private owners who allowed pets without increasing rent. I met an elderly lady last time I went rental hunting who was a dog-lover and wouldn't rent her place with a big yard to anyone who didn't have a dog.

 

If you can find a way to get a dog, I recommend it. It's almost impossible not to be happy around a dog. My dog makes me happy.

 

I've been poking around at those and have not found an affordable one. The other problem is I can't afford doggie daycare, and it would not be fair to a dog to stay locked up for 10 hours every day (I work 9 hours, and then the commute is about an extra hour.) Not sure how to work around that one, any ideas?

 

 

The downer here is that I think when someone has only a goal of love, marriage, family, that's it's practically a repellent for finding someone.

 

People are attracted to people with other personal goals. I think you'll need to come up with a personal goal like getting a book or short story published and just work on it. Or whatever you think is a good goal. It doesn't even have to be entirely realistic, just something to motivate you.

 

I think the difference between people who are good at something vs not good is determination not to give up. Sure, some people are born good at some things, but other people have to succeed by just not giving up.

 

Do you write fan fic? You said you cosplay and write, so I figure maybe you do fan fic. If not, you ought to try it, because you can get a lot of feedback and join groups where people help each other improve their writing skills. Most writers are not the greatest, but they still have fun. Some are aspiring professionals and even use fan fic to test out plot lines they want to use with their original characters in order to publish.

 

Yeah, I've done fan fic, and... it didn't turn out well. I've joined a couple of writer groups, but honestly, I didn't get any good feedback, because everyone wanted to talk about their own stuff. Horrible stereotyping ahead, but the creative types ARE usually ones who crave attention and spot-lighting. Also, the feedback I usually get is "It was okay." "Meh not my thing." Not super helpful there guys...

 

Yeah, trying hard is all well and good, but there's a certain point where you have to realize a goal is just a time-sink and not achievable. So, when you are not good at anything, what is a reasonable good goal to have??

[denise_xo]

I think the difference between people who are good at something vs not good is determination not to give up. Sure, some people are born good at some things, but other people have to succeed by just not giving up.

 

Quoted for truth. This is SO important, as most successful people will tell you (and the reason why I'm sitting inside working on a rare sunny day )

[verhrzn]

In short, the issue is about quality rather than quantity. You can employ self awareness in destructive ways, and constructive ways. I think you're doing too much of the former.

 

And how do you employ it in a non-destructive way in your experience?

 

 

The thing is, though, for that to happen I think you have to love yourself first. But you seem (at least here) so full of self contempt.

 

I merely reflect back the world. If humanity died off tomorrow, and I was the only one left, my self-esteem issues would essentially vanish. No more judgment, no more rejection. If the entire world treats you with contempt, why wouldn't you eventually get the message that hey, you're not worthy?

 

I've asked this before, but... if the world tells you you're ugly and worthless, why is it such a radical idea that you might actually be ugly and worthless? In such a situation, isn't self-love a bit delusional? Seems to me it's like a serial killer who walks around convinced he's a nice guy.

 

Again, this is a stereotypical experience that lots of people go through. Tons of my university students react that way when they first start college. They're used to doing fairly well without putting that much work into it, and all of a sudden the rug is pulled out from under their feet because they haven't cracked the codes yet.

 

People who have published novels have often written and systematically worked on improving their writing for many years, and have experienced tons of rejections before they were published. I work with experienced academics who get their publications rejected on a regular basis. It's part of the course. The cringe and throw it away part sounds more like your default self destructive pattern, though.

 

That's.... a tad insulting, to assume I HAVEN'T been putting work into it. I've been writing since I was 5. I used to dictate stories to my parents. I've been reading every book I can get my hands on since then. The "cringe and throw away" is just me recognizing bad writing. Yeah, the academics gets rejected, but they also recognize that there IS good writing there among the stuff that got rejected. What if there ISN'T any good writing? Then what?

[Negative Nancy]

So...is our value REALLY just in our age and looks - still? That's kind of depressing. Our achievements and personalities are really that worthless?

 

Yes and yes. OF COURSE. Don't tell me you're really surprised by that?

[Radu]

I was reading an article today about how, according to a national survey, women feel the most sexy at 28, and most confident at 32, and then confidence/sense of attraction for self begins to slide after that.

 

I hear very often-on forums, from comments said in the media and by guys around me (coworkers, friends, strangers)-that women are at "their best" in their early 20's, and by 30 have reached their peak and are no longer viable in the dating world.

 

I'm curious if this article changes any perspectives. I'm also curious to hear from other female posters... what age do you think you "peaked" at, in terms of feeling sexy and confident?

 

Do you also think there's an age where, if a woman has never been married, there's a good chance she won't be? Is there an age for women where dating becomes pointless? (For example, any woman over 30 might as well not bother according to the guys on this forum.)

 

Here's the article if you're curious: Women feel most attractive at 28 - Telegraph

 

I'm 29, and i tend to go for 22-24yr olds.

I will probably continue to do so untill 35.

 

The reason is that it's more probable for women in that age group to not be baby crazy or commitement crazy [in the sense that they will bite their lip for the relationship].

I've seen quite a slew of women at 27-28 try to latch onto a future husband, and when they decide to do this [subconsciously], you end up with someone who gives you a lot of leeway before marriage, but as soon as she's pregnant ... the ride is over and you are left wondering ... WTF just happened.

This happened to my cousin.

 

Off-course, i have another more selfish reason.

I was fat [still am a bit], and i'm afraid that she will get fat.

I have come to associate fat with unattractiveness for so long [pregnant or post pregnancy doesn't count], that whenever i see obese ... i literally lose all atractiveness even if it's for someone i would completely click mentally.

All of this came from my low self-esteem that i had during my fat period, but it's still there.

 

So if for instance i met a classy, awesome, thin woman [with thin parents that had awesome dynamic] of my age or even older, my 22-24 rule would fly out the window never to be heard from again.

 

Kinda long winded, right ?

Well, broken down it's like this ... it's not your age OP.

 

Not fair for a dog to sit on his ass for 9hs untill you get back home ?

BULL****, with some of these pet laws dogs end up living better than we do.

Who the hell is the master race anyway ?

Edited July 26, 2012 by Radu

[denise_xo]

And how do you employ it in a non-destructive way in your experience?

 

This from my previous post:

 

Long story short: I worked A LOT to change that thinking pattern. I initially resisted this, because I thought that this awareness was a strength and that I could see things that others couldn't see, and that this was a good thing. What I finally learned, however, was that the particular way that I employed that self awareness was an obstacle for me to succeed in different ways. One of the reasons for this is that to achieve new things, you have to put yourself out there and take risks, and my self awareness was preventing me from fully doing that because it was constantly monitoring for potential ways to critique myself and getting hung up in that. Another reason was that successful action is, IME (and also according to various neuroscientists) a balance of embodied action, thought and awareness, and emotional engagement. Too much of one thing isn't necessarily fruitful. So I had to 'tune down' my awareness/thought patterns and work on 'tuning in' to other parts that were necessary for me to draw upon in decision making processes and simply doing various stuff that life asks you to do. That is a very different thing from allowing 'illusions', though.

 

Another strategy I practiced was to not employ self awareness in the service of destructive thought patterns that lived in my head and were not based in reality.

 

I merely reflect back the world. If humanity died off tomorrow, and I was the only one left, my self-esteem issues would essentially vanish. No more judgment, no more rejection. If the entire world treats you with contempt, why wouldn't you eventually get the message that hey, you're not worthy?

 

I've asked this before, but... if the world tells you you're ugly and worthless, why is it such a radical idea that you might actually be ugly and worthless? In such a situation, isn't self-love a bit delusional? Seems to me it's like a serial killer who walks around convinced he's a nice guy.

 

What is your definition of a worth less person? I don't understand what that means.

 

That's.... a tad insulting, to assume I HAVEN'T been putting work into it. I've been writing since I was 5. I used to dictate stories to my parents. I've been reading every book I can get my hands on since then. The "cringe and throw away" is just me recognizing bad writing. Yeah, the academics gets rejected, but they also recognize that there IS good writing there among the stuff that got rejected. What if there ISN'T any good writing? Then what?

 

Obviously, I've never read your work. Given your negative perspective on yourself, I don't take you at face value of whether your writing is only bad. But my point is that most people write very badly in the process of writing something better.

[Pirouette]

Can I ask, have you looked at women your age and noted that they were less attractive than you?

 

You say you have a few social engagements here and there, and then you say you have no friends. Which is it? And why do you think you don't have close friendships?

 

Do you enjoy your job even if the pay is not so great?

 

Have you considered getting a cat instead of a dog? They are cheaper, less of a fuss, and longer living.

[Els]

 

Yeah, I've done fan fic, and... it didn't turn out well. I've joined a couple of writer groups, but honestly, I didn't get any good feedback, because everyone wanted to talk about their own stuff.

 

Rofl, I completely agree with this. Some writers' groups have a policy where you have to give two critiques to each chapter of your own work that you are allowed to post, but that also goes awry. IMO writers' groups are full of people wanting to be read and with very few people wanting to read. I have gotten better and more feedback and appreciation on FF.net than from writers' groups, but I may just have picked the wrong ones.

[Radu]

I love your username Pirouette.

 

+1 on the cat.

Dogs look up to you and are loud, obnoxious.

Cats are awesome, they look down to you.

[ThaWholigan]

Rofl, I completely agree with this. Some writers' groups have a policy where you have to give two critiques to each chapter of your own work that you are allowed to post, but that also goes awry. IMO writers' groups are full of people wanting to be read and with very few people wanting to read. I have gotten better and more feedback and appreciation on FF.net than from writers' groups, but I may just have picked the wrong ones.

I'm sure I sent Verhrzn a MASSIVE writing torrent to help her a little. God knows if she downloaded it. I swear, I get all these goldmines of information and share with people and nobody ever takes it .

 

Except Ross, he was very appreciative. Shame he has such bad depression .....

[Chocolat]

I've been poking around at those and have not found an affordable one. The other problem is I can't afford doggie daycare, and it would not be fair to a dog to stay locked up for 10 hours every day (I work 9 hours, and then the commute is about an extra hour.) Not sure how to work around that one, any ideas?

 

When my daughter was 10, she had a job of playing with the neighbor's dog for a 30 minutes or so each day when she got home from school. She earned all of $10/week and had a ball doing it. Most days, she spent more than 30 minutes. It was a very inexpensive solution for my neighbors and my daughter had a ball.

 

So, when you are not good at anything, what is a reasonable good goal to have??

 

Why do you need a goal? Why can't you just have a hobby because you like it? Or are you saying that the only way you can enjoy something is to be an expert at it?

[Els]

I'm sure I sent Verhrzn a MASSIVE writing torrent to help her a little. God knows if she downloaded it. I swear, I get all these goldmines of information and share with people and nobody ever takes it .

 

Except Ross, he was very appreciative. Shame he has such bad depression .....

 

Writing torrent?

[Radu]

verhrznA good writer thrives on adversity, emotion, nastiness, they ride these feelings and express them.

I think you could be Stephen King, if you unshackled your fantasy ... and i am being serious.

 

I've been polishing my writing for 1yr now.

[ThaWholigan]

Writing torrent?

Yeah. it was GBs worth of PDFs about different writing techniques, different genres, prose, etc. Everything you wanted to know about writing was in there. I have actually downloaded it (finally) on my computer, and it's incredible.

[utterer of lies]

the creative types ARE usually ones who crave attention and spot-lighting.

 

Sounds like you.

 

So, when you are not good at anything, what is a reasonable good goal to have??

 

Dying as a completely average, unremarkable person. Or maybe reality tv.

[Chocolat]

Writing torrent?

 

BitTorrent - Delivering the World's Content

[Pirouette]

I love your username Pirouette.

 

+1 on the cat.

Dogs look up to you and are loud, obnoxious.

Cats are awesome, they look down to you.

 

Why thank you, thought it up all by myself!

 

I suggest cats as a person who has a dog myself. If I couldn't have afforded a dog, or lived in a small apartment or worked long hours, then I definitely would have gotten a cat. They don't even have to go outside and you can leave them for a week if you want.

 

They may love you in different ways than a dog, but they will love you.

[verhrzn]

Another strategy I practiced was to not employ self awareness in the service of destructive thought patterns that lived in my head and were not based in reality.

 

Honestly, I didn't understand your last post which is why I asked for clarification. I don't understand the "embodied action, thought and awareness, and emotional engagement" in particular.

 

How do you know if patterns live inside your head or are actually based in reality? See, I think my self-awareness keeps me from making destructive thought processes. For example.... thinking I'm attractive if I'm overweight and have poor style? That would be self-destructive, because it means I couldn't fix what was wrong.

 

 

What is your definition of a worth less person? I don't understand what that means.

 

I consider a person worthless if no one would care if they died.

 

Can I ask, have you looked at women your age and noted that they were less attractive than you?

 

You say you have a few social engagements here and there, and then you say you have no friends. Which is it? And why do you think you don't have close friendships?

 

Do you enjoy your job even if the pay is not so great?

 

Have you considered getting a cat instead of a dog? They are cheaper, less of a fuss, and longer living.

 

I use "friends" to mean "they would show up to my funeral, and not just for the free food." I'd say I have a fair number of acquaintances; people I watch movies with, or go to parties with. But none of them would notice if I disappeared tomorrow, let alone care.

 

Yes, I have looked around at women my age, and they are all FAR more gorgeous than I am. That's why I was also interested in the age question... I mean, if I'm not attractive at THIS age, I must be in for a real bumpy ride as I get older.

 

No, I don't enjoy my job. Part of that is politics has slowly taken over the office, and part of it is having no room for advancement; being "stuck." And feeling like I'm awful at it. I wake up every morning in a panic that they will fire me today for sucking.

 

I actually do have a cat, but I don't get a lot of enjoyment out of him. He's rather selfish.