Is There An Age To 'Throw In the Towel' for Women?

[William]

OK, folks, I read the last couple pages here, then went back and read the starting post, and clearly the discussion has gotten off-track.

 

For the record, here's the verbiage of the infraction I use to permanently ban trolls:

 

Civility & respect: Emotional extortion intended to incite a reaction from fellow participants

 

 

I read the thread starter's opening post and find it to conform with community guidelines and to address a topic, while perhaps only tangential to dating, that is within our community guidelines.

 

There have been no reports on this thread. I checked it because of the large volume of responses.

 

As a reminder, calling other members out as trolls and/or personally attacking their credibility is a violation of our community guidelines in the area of civility and respect.

 

I hope I don't need to expand further on this. Carry on.

[McGuffin]

Ok, so if you know that you'll never be delusional enough to think you're hot stuff if you were obese or looked like a troll, why is this fear even a blip on your radar? What's so delusional about thinking that you're ok looking if people don't cringe from you in horror and you've been on dates and had boyfriends? Seems a logical conclusion to make about yourself.

 

As for clothing, if you're unsure if it looks good, play on the safe side and don't wear anything too outrageous or revealing. Even if I had a hotter bod, I wouldn't be wearing skin tight stuff or plunging necklines because it isn't me, and I'd feel ridiculous even if no one thought so. I'd be wearing the same things, only a little smaller to fit my smaller frame, but I still think I look fine.

 

What is your normal and do you not think that you look fine?

 

I want to know the answer to this too. Rather, V, I'd like you to think about the answer. If you felt a little prettier than you feel now do you really think you'd start dressing poorly or inappropriately?

 

Do you think your good judgement about dressing would completely go out the window? If so, why would that happen? Why would feeling pretty take away your judgement?

 

Do you think it's possible for people to think they're attractive and dress in a classy and appropriate way?

 

(By the way, I don't believe you're lying or being difficult on purpose.)

[verhrzn]

Do you wear fairly low cut tops? You've a perfectly nice face, at 123 pounds (and 5 ft 1") you're not overweight by anybody other than a fashion nazi's standards. I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get attention from men when you put make up on and have the boys on display.

 

I'm just gonna keep pointing to my OLD profile. I am literally in a corset in one, and a spandex leotard in another, both with make-up, and I get 0.00% attention. Hand-to-God truth. I have no idea how I can just show people on the forum this without having you standing next to me.

 

I ask this in all honesty... how can I convince posters I am not a troll? That I can put on make-up and a low cut top and still get no attention?

 

Ok, so if you know that you'll never be delusional enough to think you're hot stuff if you were obese or looked like a troll, why is this fear even a blip on your radar? What's so delusional about thinking that you're ok looking if people don't cringe from you in horror and you've been on dates and had boyfriends? Seems a logical conclusion to make about yourself.

 

What is your normal and do you not think that you look fine?

 

I guess I don't totally understand your question, but my fear is always being seen as silly or ridiculous by people. McGuffin really nailed that it's this fear of being embarrassed. I just feel that if I was walking around thinking I'm attractive, or even okay looking, people would think I'm ridiculous. Like, the only way I escape public scorn is by being constantly aware of my ugliness and flying under the radar.

 

My normal is jeans and a blouse of some kind. I guess I think I look "socially presentable while not remarkable"... aka, I think I dress to be invisible. You'd never pick me out of a crowd, because I dress in a non-attention seeking way (I feel dressing like a slob would be attention-seeking as well.) I don't know exactly how you are defining "fine"... do you mean I look in the mirror and go "Yeah, sure, I'm covered," then yes I think I look fine. Do you mean I think I look attractive? No, not usually.

 

On the rare occasion I do dress in a way I think is attractive, most people don't notice either way. If I go REALLY outside the box (like I let my fashionista friend dress me), then I get smacked down.

[verhrzn]

ding! ding! ding! We have our thread winner.

 

It is an interesting study though. It is more like dealing with a machine than a person when they have a battery of off-the-shelf manipulative responses. But this girl is smart, so it's pretty good stuff. As long as you don't let her trick you into her game.

 

..... I genuinely have no idea what people like you mean. Like, really. Propaganda? Emotional manipulation?? What, I don't even?... What are you even talking about?

 

Would it help to pull in posters who see me live on FB? Who can actually see my real life for witness statements? I mean, seriously, how does one even begin to disprove an accusation of emotional manipulation??

[verhrzn]

Quite a few of us have opted out of these plentiful threads for extended periods - after trying, and trying, and trying to offer fresh perspectives.

 

Once in a while, I along with some other people show up in the threads now and again.

 

My "mockery" really stems from a desire to inject some levity, which is much needed here.

 

There really is a tremendous, sick amount of effort here to "make" people say what v wants them to say.

 

*Sigh* And it's just impossible for you to just say it and be done? Or just leave me alone?

 

You do realize it IS a vicious cycle in a way? I come to LS for sympathy... I get "levity"... it reinforces my insecurities, which makes me crave sympathy and validation even more... posters continue to mock me, roll their eyes, deliver their scorn, which convinces me even MORE that I am correct in my "negative" self-perception...

 

Ya know what's fascinating? I've seen it said often that I am the female version of SD. Now, I don't post in his threads anymore, but I read them. He has been coming here for... what, 3, 4 years? From what I can tell, he has just as prolific posting record as I do. So he's been here just as long as (in fact, longer) I have, posted just as often as I have, in a similar vein as I have... yet I don't see him receive HALF as many scornful remarks. I've never seen anyone accuse him of being an elaborate troll. Or call him sick, or twisted, or attention-whore.

 

Why is that?

 

Good. Very good.

 

Because all this crap about being brutally honest eg "I'm ugly, I'm fat, I'm stupid" blah blah blah.... All these exhortations to stop kissing your butt and call it like it is.

 

But when someone says that you are whining - oh wow, play the victim. Oooooh. Such a classic manipulative play! It's good stuff.

 

Actually, it was more the calling me a troll, claiming I flame other forums, and calling back to when she accused me of being a self-centered sociopath that I was referring to.

 

And.... how is it manipulative, exactly, to claim someone is calling me names when they are, in fact, calling me names?

[William]

OK, I'll do some cleanup now. Anyone else want a vacation? I'll leave the quotes in the thread starters responses intact so there's no ambiguity about where I'm going with this.

[verhrzn]

A fine point of manipulation here for ya, in order to graduate with honors: people that have learned to spot liars look for this. It is called a "tell". Only the really brilliant ones learn to avoid this mistake. The "tell" is the word "genuinely". It is a special form of denial manipulative people use. Right before the lie, they use "honestly" or even more strenuously "To be perfectly honest" or "swear on my mothers name" etc.

 

This tell can never be used independently as a means of spotting a personality disorder. It has to be used in conjunction with a whole menu of things I see you doing. I would have to go study to see if this is a consistent "tell" for you. Regardless though, the very LAST thing you EVER do is believe a manipulator doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Excellent. Thank you.

 

Well, the whole game is that everything you do is covered by what is called "plausible deniability". Who me?! Little old me? Look how miserable I am. How could I possibly want to be this miserable? Well hey - the literature on this says there are all kinds of sub-categories of specialists in this area. I don't think this way and neither do the other people posting on the thread. So you use that against us: "Nobody could be the way I am..."

 

Well sure you are. Right there in front of us. I believe my eyes.

 

Explain this to me. If someone is not a manipulator, how would they respond to being accused of being emotionally manipulative? Cause it seems to be a double-bind: no matter how you play it, you look guilty.

 

Please, give examples of how I am being emotionally manipulative. I am interested in this, because I can't conceive of how someone could be both as socially awkward and confused as I am, AND also the emotionally manipulative mastermind you paint me as. How do those two things work together?

 

Moreover, if I was emotionally manipulative, would I not be able to manipulate to get what I want (a boyfriend, friends who like me, sympathy?) If anything, doesn't this thread prove how inept I am at "manipulating," since I can't even get most posters to give me sympathy and validation?

 

Now maybe you're going to claim I want attention. Sure. We're on an advice forum... everyone who posts wants attention. DreamingofTigers and McGuffin wondered if I was ignoring them when I didn't directly respond to their posts. Would you accuse them of manipulating me for attention? Probably not. What exactly is the line between "expressing oneself on a forum" and "attention-whoring"?

 

All that said, it's apparent you can't read very well, since William had a post not that long enough stressing that calling out someone else's credibility is strictly against forum rules. Troll, attention-whore, manipulator... whatever label you give me, it still destroys my credibility and turns this thread into me fruitlessly trying to defend myself against an armchair psychologist, who won't even give specific examples of HOW I'm manipulating people.

[Pirouette]

I guess I don't totally understand your question, but my fear is always being seen as silly or ridiculous by people. McGuffin really nailed that it's this fear of being embarrassed. I just feel that if I was walking around thinking I'm attractive, or even okay looking, people would think I'm ridiculous. Like, the only way I escape public scorn is by being constantly aware of my ugliness and flying under the radar.

 

My normal is jeans and a blouse of some kind. I guess I think I look "socially presentable while not remarkable"... aka, I think I dress to be invisible. You'd never pick me out of a crowd, because I dress in a non-attention seeking way (I feel dressing like a slob would be attention-seeking as well.) I don't know exactly how you are defining "fine"... do you mean I look in the mirror and go "Yeah, sure, I'm covered," then yes I think I look fine. Do you mean I think I look attractive? No, not usually.

 

On the rare occasion I do dress in a way I think is attractive, most people don't notice either way. If I go REALLY outside the box (like I let my fashionista friend dress me), then I get smacked down.

 

Yes, she clarified my question (I think McGuffin is a she). Do you think that by thinking you're ok looking all your common-sense and objectivity flies out the window and you'll become one of those delusional people you loathe? I bet you've never once in your life come close to that, and that you will always have the self-awareness to avoid that so why you fear that outcome should be a question you ask yourself.

 

Logically, you should know that people who are out and about really aren't thinking about how the strangers they pass rate their own attractiveness, unless yes they look completely outrageous, which you are in no danger of being.

 

So you dress non-descript. And no I don't consider that fine. You should dress in a way that you feel is attractive. If no one compliments you, it doesn't mean no one noticed. And if your fashionista friend can't dress you in a way that plays to your strengths, then she isn't very good at it and you shouldn't have her dress you.

 

It could also be that you feel awkward and that you exude that, and that is what people are reacting to. In what ways have you been slapped down when you dress more attractive?

 

Have you ever watched What Not to Wear? Most of those ladies are regular women, some chubby, some not, some old, some young, with bad hair, bad makeup and bad clothes. Most don't become beauty queens and won't get stopped on streets by love confessions afterwards, but not a single one doesn't look 10 times better in tailored and fashionable clothes and a haircut and makeup.

[McGuffin]

My "mockery" really stems from a desire to inject some levity, which is much needed here.

 

There really is a tremendous, sick amount of effort here to "make" people say what v wants them to say.

 

Actually, I know V doesn't like what you're saying, but I wasn't talking about you. It seems to me like you're still trying to help. You're not just being mean. I think you have good intentions but what you say can be misinterpreted by someone with low self-esteem.

 

The recent visitors to the thread is what I'm talking about. They've just started getting mean which is reinforcing the expectations V already has of people picking on her. I don't think V is doing it intentionally. She puts up a defense to keep from getting hurt. Sadly, that defense is what's making people scornful because they take it as manipulation.

 

If they don't like it, they can go away instead of being mean and reinforcing V's argument that people will be mean to her.

[McGuffin]

V, I wouldn't worry about responding to Married2kid's complaint. Those "tells" about a liar are just about as accurate as the "tell" about a liar always looking up and to the left. People's brains are different. 90% of people might look left when they lie but 8% might look up and right and 2% might look down and right. Likewise, people don't all use words the same.

Edited July 27, 2012 by McGuffin

[McGuffin]

Yes, she clarified my question (I think McGuffin is a she).

 

Yep.

 

Do you think that by thinking you're ok looking all your common-sense and objectivity flies out the window and you'll become one of those delusional people you loathe? I bet you've never once in your life come close to that, and that you will always have the self-awareness to avoid that so why you fear that outcome should be a question you ask yourself.

I really am curious too why you don't think you'll be able to judge your clothes, V. Do you think that's rational? I'm not talking about the extreme of letting someone try to dress you up to the 9's. I mean just considering yourself pretty and maybe making a tad bit more effort. Why do you think you'd go from what you wear now to dressing inappropriately?

 

In what ways have you been slapped down when you dress more attractive?

Curious about this as well. Edited July 27, 2012 by McGuffin

[mesmerized]

I think people should cut V some slack. If she is sincere and never in real life has gotten any compliments, why would she believe some internet strangers who want to make her feel better? I wouldn't!

 

At the same time, V should also realize that people get tired of hearing the same things over and over. Either try to make some change in your life or stop posting. Why even post if all you want to do is attacking people who are trying to help you?

[verhrzn]

Yep.

 

I really am curious too why you don't think you'll be able to judge your clothes, V. Do you think that's rational? I'm not talking about the extreme of letting someone try to dress you up to the 9's. I mean just considering yourself pretty and maybe making a tad bit more effort.

 

Curious about this as well.

 

Guess I don't see how its IRrational. Thought process goes something like: I dress "standard" because I feel unattractive and want to avoid scorn. If I stopped feeling unattractive, I would stop dressing standard. I would start dressing in a way that was attractive. But because I am *objectively* not attractive, my style of dress would then invite scorn.

 

I think of those people whose pictures we mock online, the ones with the muffin tops or the thong sticking out... They didn't get up in the morning and think "I am way too fat for these jeans." They got up and thought," I am hot stuff, I will pour myself into these sexy jeans!" Then, scorn.

 

Also I have no idea how to make myself pretty. I actually used to put in a lot of effort... the girls at the local Bare Essentials store knew me by name, and favorite lipstick color. But I could just never manage to figure out how to look good, even with effort. I've thought about nominating myself for that What Not To Wear, but I'm not outrageous enough to actually make it on.

[ja123]

I'm in my earlier forties and feel younger now than I ever have, ironically.

 

Sure the body ages, but a great attitude is timeless.

[verhrzn]

At the same time, V should also realize that people get tired of hearing the same things over and over. Either try to make some change in your life or stop posting. Why even post if all you want to do is attacking people who are trying to help you?

 

I guess I make the wacky assumption that if they don't want to hear me, they won't wander into my threads. It's not like someone is forcing their eyeballs open. If they are sick of hearing the same things, they are welcome to avoid me.

 

Posting helps me because it helps get it out of my head. The more things sit in my head, the worse it gets. Expressing it helps relieve the pressure.

 

And I don't mean to attack people. Really, all I want is some sympathy and validation. Just some goddamn understanding, even. "Yep, being ugly sucks." Yay! "Yeah, dating for women over 30 is really tough." Ah, confirmation!... It's nice of posters to try to help me, but I feel like they need to actually hear me first. So many times it seems like people are just rushing to their own conclusions and plastering their own experiences onto mine, without actually considering what I'm saying.

[McGuffin]

Guess I don't see how its IRrational. Thought process goes something like: I dress "standard" because I feel unattractive and want to avoid scorn. If I stopped feeling unattractive, I would stop dressing standard. I would start dressing in a way that was attractive. But because I am *objectively* not attractive, my style of dress would then invite scorn.

 

I'm glad you don't think it's rational either. Do you like that you think that way? Would you prefer to think differently?

 

I think of those people whose pictures we mock online, the ones with the muffin tops or the thong sticking out... They didn't get up in the morning and think "I am way too fat for these jeans." They got up and thought," I am hot stuff, I will pour myself into these sexy jeans!" Then, scorn.

 

You definitely err on the side of caution, so I doubt you'd ever be one of those muffin tops.

 

I've thought about nominating myself for that What Not To Wear, but I'm not outrageous enough to actually make it on.

 

You won't know unless you try.

[mesmerized]

I guess I make the wacky assumption that if they don't want to hear me, they won't wander into my threads. It's not like someone is forcing their eyeballs open. If they are sick of hearing the same things, they are welcome to avoid me.

 

Posting helps me because it helps get it out of my head. The more things sit in my head, the worse it gets. Expressing it helps relieve the pressure.

 

And I don't mean to attack people. Really, all I want is some sympathy and validation. Just some goddamn understanding, even. "Yep, being ugly sucks." Yay! "Yeah, dating for women over 30 is really tough." Ah, confirmation!... It's nice of posters to try to help me, but I feel like they need to actually hear me first. So many times it seems like people are just rushing to their own conclusions and plastering their own experiences onto mine, without actually considering what I'm saying.

 

 

hmmm, so from now on, make sure that you post in your OP that you only want to hear from miserable and ugly people. That it's all a rant for you and nothing else. You post a general question and then get angry when people give you a different response that you want to hear, how dumb is that?

[Mme. Chaucer]

In response to the OP:

 

No, there is not an age to "throw in the towel." That decision is not governed by age. It's governed by state of mind.

 

ES said it most succinctly. Certainly there is a limit to how long a woman will be able to bear children, but being able to love and be loved is not hindered by age.

[Pirouette]

Guess I don't see how its IRrational. Thought process goes something like: I dress "standard" because I feel unattractive and want to avoid scorn. If I stopped feeling unattractive, I would stop dressing standard. I would start dressing in a way that was attractive. But because I am *objectively* not attractive, my style of dress would then invite scorn.

 

It's irrational to think that everyone will scorn you if you wear something nice and attractive. We're not talking about an outrageous, attention seeking outfit here, just good quality clothes that fit and look nice, and can only improve the way you look. Like I said, the women on What Not to Wear, every single one looks 10x better, and no one would scorn them for what they are wearing and the effort they put in.

 

I think of those people whose pictures we mock online, the ones with the muffin tops or the thong sticking out... They didn't get up in the morning and think "I am way too fat for these jeans." They got up and thought," I am hot stuff, I will pour myself into these sexy jeans!" Then, scorn.

 

That's called bad taste. It's not limited to unattractive people either. I've seen many a woman where I've thought, good face, nice body, unfortunate hair and clothes. If you are concerned that you cannot trust your taste if you allowed them to venture past dull and safe, that is a different issue.

 

When I was in my teens I made some bad fashion choices, got laughed at, and lost faith in my own taste. So I turned to two friends who gave good advice and I don't think I bought hardly anything without their green light for the next few years. Fast forward to later and we had a falling out and I no longer had fashion advisors. I thought, 'am I going to go look for new fashion gurus or start relying on myself?' I wanted to see if I could do it, and honestly, high school was over so if I made bad choices, at least I wasn't going to get taunted over and over again in the halls.

 

I started small and conservative, eventually adding colour and more adventurous pieces. I made mistakes, threw them in the reject bin and learned from it. I made friends with a make-up artist, who was also honest, and got tons of tips from her. I worked it out eventually, though I still learn new things all the time. You may never develop a fashion sense, and if that's the case you'll just have to get advice. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Also I have no idea how to make myself pretty. I actually used to put in a lot of effort... the girls at the local Bare Essentials store knew me by name, and favorite lipstick color. But I could just never manage to figure out how to look good, even with effort. I've thought about nominating myself for that What Not To Wear, but I'm not outrageous enough to actually make it on.

 

If those so-called makeup artists couldn't help you, then they are awful at their job and should find a new calling.

 

I'm not an expert, but I've learned a lot. If you ever want to talk shop, PM me. There's no one alive who doesn't look better with tastefully applied make-up.

 

I think you don't want to try because if you do, you risk greater hurt. Because you'll know that you did try and you still got knocked down and it makes the hurt more personal and the failure will feel like it's your fault. It's easier to not try and if no one notices you then, or you get a mean comment, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that 'hey, at least I didn't expend effort and they're not telling me anything I don't already know.'

[lino]

Age has never mattered much to me. I've always been involved with women who are within 3 or 4 years of my age.

 

I don't believe there is any age where a woman 'throws in the towel.'

 

I believe it's much more relevant to consider what a woman has done in her personal life up until now, no matter what her age.

 

By the way, I think the 'guys' who say women are used up at 30 are in fact just one bloke with multiple accounts. Doesn't take much to clearly see that.

[mesmerized]

Age has never mattered much to me. I've always been involved with women who are within 3 or 4 years of my age.

 

I don't believe there is any age where a woman 'throws in the towel.'

 

I believe it's much more relevant to consider what a woman has done in her personal life up until now, no matter what her age.

 

By the way, I think the 'guys' who say women are used up at 30 are in fact just one bloke with multiple accounts. Doesn't take much to clearly see that.

 

He actually got banned recently cause I busted his bum.

[Pirouette]

Clear some of your PMs!

[123321]

One guy one account here, but I guess I can sockpuppet if it makes you hot.

[Taramere]

yea something isnt right about this thread. I find it hard to believe its the most true. this pity me stuff is getting old. if really huge out of shape girls are getting men of some caliber theres no reason the op cannot. I think the op is a troll and thrives on the popularity of people replying to her. she even has over 500 posts. thats ridiculous! will you people stop feeding her already. theres much better posts to review than this.

 

I don't mind discussing things with V in an extended way. I can drop in and out of the convo whenever I want...it's not like anybody is forcing me (or anybody else) to participate. If you feel there are better threads to review, then you're free to review them. V is free to complain as much as she likes. Generally I think she's a fairly smart girl who's caught in a long term slump. Analytical, a pessimist...those traits will probably always be with her, and result in her communicating with others in this way.

 

Do you think people should just ignore her until she shapes up into a more positive thinker? I don't subscribe to that perspective. I'll interact with her when I feel like it, and then if/when it gets too much of a downer I'll withdraw and do something else...but I don't think some strategy of deliberately ignoring a person because others have decided they're attention-seeking/manipulative is something I want to be into.

 

Most people are attention-seeking/manipulative on some level. It just comes down to which brands of attention seeking and manipulative you find tolerable, and which you can't abide.

[ItsOK]

women are at "their best" in their early 20's, and by 30 have reached their peak and are no longer viable in the dating world.

 

I'm curious if this article changes any perspectives. I'm also curious to hear from other female posters... what age do you think you "peaked" at, in terms of feeling sexy and confident?

 

 

This is sexual objectification of women which is a form of misogyny. I won't buy into this stuff.