Is There An Age To 'Throw In the Towel' for Women?

[Drseussgrrl]

Well a trait is not a product of nurture. You're either born with it or you're not.

 

It's why the cleaning lady here in our building is always whistling with a smile on her face. She's just happy. Even though she's probably poor and cleans toilets.

[Cracker Jack]

But that's what stands-out, tho. Your attitude sucks, and I don't see how you'd have a happy relationship with the way you think.

 

You can harp on the "lack of physical attraction" all you want, but the fact that there's women out there that aren't as attractive as you who can have successful relationships with the opposite sex is enough to imply that your issue easily goes beyond the physical.

[utterer of lies]

Maybe I don't possess it because there is nothing in my life worth being happy about.

Chicken or the egg, when it comes to discussions of happiness, which is why saying "Be happy!" is a rather pointless exercise.

 

I don't usually advocate self-medication, but I guess it you are the rare exception where a night clubbing with some E might really help.

[verhrzn]

Who got a boob job lol. jk. There are plenty of things to be happy about. You are alive, you are breathing, you have all your limbs. Some men and women returning from overseas deployments are not afforded that luxury. Life is short. Realize what is important and what is not.

 

So they would like to trade their loving families, their decently-paid jobs, their friends, and their attractive features for my limbs? If so, fine, traded.

 

The things that are important in life are being surrounded by loved ones, is it not? Having people who care about you? So if you don't have that, then you DON'T have the things that make life important.

 

I don't usually advocate self-medication, but I guess it you are the rare exception where a night clubbing with some E might really help.

 

I have no idea how my throwing up into a public toilet would help....

 

Happiness is a state of mind. There are beautiful people who are rich that are miserable and poor people who are happy

 

And there are rich people who are happy, and poor people who are miserable. It doesn't mean happiness is a state of mind, it just means those people have the things that make them happy. Maybe rich beautiful people want something besides being rich and beautiful which is why they are miserable.

 

If you have the things you want, you are happy. If you don't, you are sad.

[Ami1uwant]

Pregnancy is the culprit for why the tables turn in a mans favor at this age. And tbh...I dont find it to be in good favor. Women start worrying about finding the right guy and start chasing more because they dont want to have babies too late as it can be problematic. Problematic can be pregnancy issues or having a wrench thrown in her life plans. I know plenty of people have a particular age in mind where they want kids so they arent that much older than their kids growing up.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you on the concept...though I think the turning point is more around 35 than 30....

 

Reason: when she hits 35 she hears that bio clock ticking...also women around that age start to look older. Men around that age say mid to late 30s have a big advantage....they can go dor someone early 30s or late 30s who still hasnt aged and there is no pressure time clock on starting a family right after marriage.

 

As ypu get older even men who arent as attractive still has a dating make up on younger guys because they are career established and make a decent salary.

 

Can anyone find someone else at any age---sure---if you eliminate the pregnancy/.child factor.

[RiverRunning]

I kind of find all of these arguments amusing. Women are outpacing men in obtaining higher degrees. They make up the majority of the labor force now (in the U.S., I'm speaking of). They're even starting to make some headway in management-level positions. Studies routinely show that women end up doing the majority of the housework and the majority of the child-rearing, even when they themselves are working full-time jobs (whether or not their husbands are also working).

 

This stereotype that "most" women just lie around and take a man's money is dying out. More and more women are taking on traditional feminine roles and traditional male roles at the same time.

 

So...is our value REALLY just in our age and looks - still? That's kind of depressing. Our achievements and personalities are really that worthless?

 

I'll be bluntly honest: I'm overweight, so I have never felt attractive. The only men who check me out when I'm in the store are old enough to be my dad or my grandpa. Or they look/act kind of crazy. Once or twice, I've seen a guy who's MAYBE in my age range looking at me. But generally, the only men who look at me are at least 10 or 15 years my senior (I'm in my mid-20s).

 

I've only been asked out by a guy once, and that was online. He seemed desperate to have a girlfriend, though. Afraid that others would think he was 'gay.' So to him, having a girlfriend was better than nothing.

 

I've just kind of come to terms with the idea that I'm the woman men settle for. We can't all be beautiful.

 

I've been working on weight loss for 1 1/2 years so maybe within the next year or so I'll finally get a taste of what it's like to be one of the 'beautiful' and 'thin' ones. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

If I had to guess? I'd say most women probably feel that they 'peak' in their mid-20s. Once their formal education ends. The pool of single and available men who would make them feel most attractive disperse at that point.

[McGuffin]

Yeah, I'd be happier, because then it'd feel like people are finally listening to me. I mean, don't you consider it a little ironic to say that I have only one viewpoint and demand to be correct.... but posters are constantly labeling my problems as "my attitude" and all other evidence is tossed out as irrelevant. So isn't that the exact same thing?

 

For example, it doesn't matter if I told posters that I AM occasionally confident and happy and things still go wrong for me. Posters still continue to insist it's my "attitude." It's so nauseatingly frustrating it makes me want to eat my own head.

 

Are people SO convinced that the only reason people end up single is because of their attitude? Do people really think there can be NO other reason... their physical appearance, their age, their economic situation?

 

Look, I've been trying to accept that no one is ever going to believe me, no matter how much evidence I present, but the very least posters could do is answer my question without it descending yet again into a discussion of all the ways I suck ("God you're so negative", "You have a bad attitude", "I wouldn't date you".... always funny to me how posters just toss off these comments without ever actually addressing HOW someone can have a positive attitude in my situation.)

 

Your attitude in this thread so far has gotten in the way of anyone offering the type of advice you now say you want. Rather than reading what people have said, understanding that they mean well and asking them to provide some useful real-world steps to take, you twist their words and say they're encouraging you to commit suicide.

 

So the first step is to check the attitude and melodrama. Then people will be more willing to listen to your concerns.

 

If you want advice on how to have a positive attitude, I can tell you what I did. I used to be depressed though college and even tried to OD on pain killers twice. Being happy isn't instant, and the advice people give you can sometimes seem silly and useless, but even the silly stuff can help.

 

One of the things I did was wear a rubber band around my wrist and snap it every time I had a negative thought. (Silly right?)

 

It might be helpful to talk to a counselor if you haven't. I tried about 3 and all were half nuts themselves, but just talking about some of the messed up stuff and being told that it wasn't my fault probably helped a little.

 

I also read a lot of self-help books. I think those were the most help. I'd recommend some, but I can't remember the titles, since I got rid of them long ago.

[denise_xo]

Yeah, I'd be happier, because then it'd feel like people are finally listening to me. I mean, don't you consider it a little ironic to say that I have only one viewpoint and demand to be correct.... but posters are constantly labeling my problems as "my attitude" and all other evidence is tossed out as irrelevant. So isn't that the exact same thing?

 

For example, it doesn't matter if I told posters that I AM occasionally confident and happy and things still go wrong for me. Posters still continue to insist it's my "attitude." It's so nauseatingly frustrating it makes me want to eat my own head.

 

Are people SO convinced that the only reason people end up single is because of their attitude? Do people really think there can be NO other reason... their physical appearance, their age, their economic situation?

 

Look, I've been trying to accept that no one is ever going to believe me, no matter how much evidence I present, but the very least posters could do is answer my question without it descending yet again into a discussion of all the ways I suck ("God you're so negative", "You have a bad attitude", "I wouldn't date you".... always funny to me how posters just toss off these comments without ever actually addressing HOW someone can have a positive attitude in my situation.)

 

To the first paragraph: well, either you haven't managed to get the other evidence across very convincingly, or it gets overshadow by your negativity. After all, we are a bunch of strangers here with no vested interests in systematically ignoring specific aspects of what you write. To remember a time when you said something positive about yourself, I have to try really hard. I don't have to try at all to remember all the negative things you have said about yourself.

 

I have never said that the only thing that keeps you (or many other people) single is attitude, or that no other factor matters. I have two close female friends who have struggled with obesity, and this has clearly impacted how the opposite sex has perceived them. This has been immensely frustrating and hurtful to them. However, it remains a fact that a negative attitude will never help, in any way. Both of these women are today in healthy, loving relationships with very nice men. They wouldn't have gotten there if they kept telling themselves and the world that they were unattractive, that there was no hope for them, that they were untalented and would never be good at anything, and so on and so forth. It just doesn't add anything constructive to life.

 

I know plenty of people in challenging situations who do have a positive outlook on life - and these are people who have battled abuse, torture, obesity, bullying in school, suicide attempts, rape and so on. As to the HOW, there's not one single answer - most people try to work through these issues with a whole range of tools, and most of these tools have been discussed in previous threads of yours.

 

I work in research, and for me the line of work is very clear: if it is my experience that the vast majority of people I present my research to don't believe my 'evidence', then there's something wrong with the evidence. Or, alternatively, when everyone perceives your attitude to be a handicap, there is either something wrong with all of us, or it's you are a perpetually misunderstood soul who has understood something that all of us haven't. The latter is possible, I don't know you in real life, so I don't know. But the evidence I've seen so far isn't convincing to me.

 

I say all this in the spirit of constructive dialogue, as I hope you know

[Ami1uwant]

If they started off beautiful, sure.

 

Eh, maybe this was the wrong crowd to ask, since the board is filled with married women, and guys who are convinced women have it easier in dating no matter how many times they're proven wrong.

 

PS: I want to reiterate that I am speaking about ONLY women who have never been married. It seems like if you can get down the aisle once, you have a much better chance of going down it again. But how many of us know a woman who married for the first time in her 40's, 50's, etc?

 

 

It is easier for women than men.....men have to do all the effort in the early parts of dating....they have to stick their neck out and ask..then plan the date..then pay...etc. I would love to see for a month women are the ones in charge and do this so they can better understand what it is really like.

 

 

As for first time married in their 40s or older...it depends on their relationship past....did they have relationships before just not marriage or were they relationship free?

 

Why did women stay in 5, 7 year relationships and never marry? Personally it doesnt take you that long to know if theis person is marriage material.

 

If they didnt have a relationship for say 10 yrs or more this raiseds a big red flag with guys who will run. She didnt have a relationship--what was wrong with her. someone who is relationship inexperienced...if youve been married before you dont want to take that risk again...so you move on.

[verhrzn]

Your attitude in this thread so far has gotten in the way of anyone offering the type of advice you now say you want. Rather than reading what people have said, understanding that they mean well and asking them to provide some useful real-world steps to take, you twist their words and say they're encouraging you to commit suicide.

 

So the first step is to check the attitude and melodrama. Then people will be more willing to listen to your concerns.

 

If you want advice on how to have a positive attitude, I can tell you what I did. I used to be depressed though college and even tried to OD on pain killers twice. Being happy isn't instant, and the advice people give you can sometimes seem silly and useless, but even the silly stuff can help.

 

One of the things I did was wear a rubber band around my wrist and snap it every time I had a negative thought. (Silly right?)

 

It might be helpful to talk to a counselor if you haven't. I tried about 3 and all were half nuts themselves, but just talking about some of the messed up stuff and being told that it wasn't my fault probably helped a little.

 

I also read a lot of self-help books. I think those were the most help. I'd recommend some, but I can't remember the titles, since I got rid of them long ago.

 

The attitude comes from posting in this forum for a year. Even when I asked for real-world examples, listened, tried to explain my situation... same results. I've stopped expecting people to believe me, or even do more than put me down as the "LS Whiner" and move on, but it'd sure be nice if a thread didn't descend into all the ways I suck, no matter the question I ask.

 

And I've done counseling, and self-help books, and rubber bands, and medication, and on and on and on. The problem is NOT negativity, the problem is there is nothing in my life to be positive about. Some people are negative because they can't see the good in their life. But some people are negative because they can accurately see there is no good in their life. I wish we could start drawing a distinction between the two.

 

Glad for you that you were the former, and got out of it, but it's a little much to assume that depression. Is it not possible I am just accurately reporting on a sh*tty life?

[utterer of lies]

If you have the things you want, you are happy. If you don't, you are sad.

 

That's bull****. People get used to everything, really fast.

 

One year after winning the lottery people are back at the same happiness level as people one year after having an accident that puts them into a wheel chair.

 

 

While there are obviously some extreme influences that can change the baseline, most people are either generally happy or unhappy, and stay that way.

[Negative Nancy]

Not all men are making that statements. I see women getting married in their 40s and even 50s so clearly many men don't feel this way.

 

Thats only because they settle out of lack for younger options, but any woman here can be assured that if that man had a chance to be with that 20 year old hot version of that woman, he would trade her in in a heartbeat.

[denise_xo]

Some people are negative because they can't see the good in their life. But some people are negative because they can accurately see there is no good in their life. I wish we could start drawing a distinction between the two.

 

V., this is the kind of sentences that make you seem self centred and whining. I've worked in developing countries, met lots of people who live below the poverty line, met people who live under occupation, whose family members have been maimed and killed, who have experienced torture and extended imprisonment without trial, who struggle to complete their education against all odds (military conflict, patriarchy in the case of young women, and severe economic difficulties). And I've never heard any of them portray such a consistently negative attitude as you do. I really don't buy the distinction you are trying to draw here.

[verhrzn]

That's bull****. People get used to everything, really fast.

 

One year after winning the lottery people are back at the same happiness level as people one year after having an accident that puts them into a wheel chair.

 

While there are obviously some extreme influences that can change the baseline, most people are either generally happy or unhappy, and stay that way.

 

So then perhaps an earlier poster was right, and happiness IS an inherited trait. In which case, people born without the "happiness genre" are apparently doomed to a loveless life, since "attitude" seems to be oh-so-important.

 

Still, I'd love to be part of a social experiment in which I won the lottery to see if I'd go back to being "unhappy." If I had the money, I could change my life. I could go back to school for a better profession without being crushed by debt (as I am now.) I could have a modest house, and a dog, two things I very badly want but can't afford on my own. I could even have my own kids, so even if men aren't attracted to me, I could still have a family. I could afford therapy, and not wake up every morning in a blind panic about finances.

 

Maybe people who win the lottery just don't know how to use that money to achieve happiness, but I'd certainly know what to do with it.

[McGuffin]

The problem is NOT negativity, the problem is there is nothing in my life to be positive about. Some people are negative because they can't see the good in their life. But some people are negative because they can accurately see there is no good in their life. I wish we could start drawing a distinction between the two.

 

Glad for you that you were the former, and got out of it, but it's a little much to assume that depression.

 

Well, I suppose you're right that if I were still being abused, it would be harder not to continue being depressed.

 

Is it not possible I am just accurately reporting on a sh*tty life?

Why is it that you can't change your life to be not ****ty?

[verhrzn]

V., this is the kind of sentences that make you seem self centred and whining. I've worked in developing countries, met lots of people who live below the poverty line, met people who live under occupation, whose family members have been maimed and killed, who have experienced torture and extended imprisonment without trial, who struggle to complete their education against all odds (military conflict, patriarchy in the case of young women, and severe economic difficulties). And I've never heard any of them portray such a consistently negative attitude as you do. I really don't buy the distinction you are trying to draw here.

 

Because you're cutting out all the things they DO have. It's like I pointed out earlier... the same things don't make different people happy. Some people could care less about an education if they have a loving family. Some people could care less about a social life if they have a fantastic career. Etc. If you have what you want, you're happy. If you don't, you're sad.

 

Those people live in difficult circumstances, but maybe they have the things I desire: they have loving parents, or supportive friends, or a fantastic love life, or a great talent/intelligence.

 

It isn't fair or accurate to say that I shouldn't be negative because I have A, B, and C and other people don't, when maybe I don't value A, B, and C.

[Janesays]

If you have the things you want, you are happy. If you don't, you are sad.

 

OK, fine. It's time for you to WANT DIFFERENT THINGS. Instead of wanting a boyfriend and a bunch of people to love and admire you, try wanting something else.

 

How wanting to make a positive difference, however small, in this world? How about wanting to help people? How about wanting to travel as many places as possible? How about wanting to learn how to speak multiple different languages? How about WANTING SOMETHING ELSE?

 

None of the things I mentioned require good looks and people who 'love' you. But they can be fulfilling in themselves. And they're darn sure would ultimately make you feel more better about yourself than constantly whining and crying that you're life is not worth living.

 

If you're life isn't worth living, go do something to change your life into one that is. The world isn't all about you. Once you remember that and learn to look outside yourself, you might find something that brings you joy.

[utterer of lies]

I've worked in developing countries, met lots of people who live below the poverty line, met people who live under occupation, whose family members have been maimed and killed, who have experienced torture and extended imprisonment without trial, who struggle to complete their education against all odds (military conflict, patriarchy in the case of young women, and severe economic difficulties).

 

Fighting for your continued existence every day leaves little time for the kind of depressed self-analysis that the comfort of living in the first world allows.

 

So then perhaps an earlier poster was right, and happiness IS an inherited trait. In which case, people born without the "happiness genre" are apparently doomed to a loveless life, since "attitude" seems to be oh-so-important.

 

Not loveless. But with regards to happiness, yes, there seems to be a genetic factor.

[Drseussgrrl]

Sounds like you're hell-bent on remaining unhappy.

 

So, good luck!

[denise_xo]

Because you're cutting out all the things they DO have. It's like I pointed out earlier... the same things don't make different people happy. Some people could care less about an education if they have a loving family. Some people could care less about a social life if they have a fantastic career. Etc. If you have what you want, you're happy. If you don't, you're sad.

 

Those people live in difficult circumstances, but maybe they have the things I desire: they have loving parents, or supportive friends, or a fantastic love life, or a great talent/intelligence.

 

It isn't fair or accurate to say that I shouldn't be negative because I have A, B, and C and other people don't, when maybe I don't value A, B, and C.

 

They don't have all they want. They lack political independence, they lack food, they have lost their family members because they have been killed in war, or they have been forced to step out of an education that meant the world to them because of financial difficulties, they lack freedom of movement, they lack political freedoms. And so on. All of these are things that they strongly want. Sorry, V, but it's back to the a-word.

[verhrzn]

Why is it that you can't change your life to be not ****ty?

 

Don't have the money. The more I think of it, the more it keeps circling back to money. Money to go back to school to get a better career (or so I could study what I was passionate about without worrying about needing to support myself.) Money to ease my debt anxiety. Money to get plastic surgery. Money to have the things I want (a house, kids) that I can't afford on my own. Money for therapy, even. Money to do the things I love (travel, martial arts, which is UNGODLY expensive.)

 

Hell, if I had money, I could BUY a man.

 

Without money, I have no avenues to pursue any of that. My only hope for owning a house is finding someone who can take on the financial burden with me (a husband for example.) Same with kids. I am in the very top income tier of my profession, and I'm already teetering under bills and debt.

 

Without money, how can I pursue any of that?

 

They don't have all they want. They lack political independence, they lack food, they have lost their family members because they have been killed in war, or they have been forced to step out of an education that meant the world to them because of financial difficulties, they lack freedom of movement, they lack political freedoms. And so on. All of these are things that they strongly want. Sorry, V, but it's back to the a-word.

 

Tell ya what, as soon as they invent body-swapping, they can have mine, and we'll see if they can remain happy. It's no good photocopying one person's life onto another, and saying "You should be happy because THEY are." Until someone walks a mile in another's shoes, it's no good to judge their situation. Someone live my life for a few days, in my body, and THEN we'll discuss judging whether or not I SHOULD be happy just because I have certain things others don't.

Edited July 25, 2012 by verhrzn

[Ami1uwant]

Don't have the money. The more I think of it, the more it keeps circling back to money. Money to go back to school to get a better career (or so I could study what I was passionate about without worrying about needing to support myself.) Money to ease my debt anxiety. Money to get plastic surgery. Money to have the things I want (a house, kids) that I can't afford on my own. Money for therapy, even. Money to do the things I love (travel, martial arts, which is UNGODLY expensive.)

 

Hell, if I had money, I could BUY a man.

 

Without money, I have no avenues to pursue any of that. My only hope for owning a house is finding someone who can take on the financial burden with me (a husband for example.) Same with kids. I am in the very top income tier of my profession, and I'm already teetering under bills and debt.

 

Without money, how can I pursue any of that?

 

 

 

Tell ya what, as soon as they invent body-swapping, they can have mine, and we'll see if they can remain happy. It's no good photocopying one person's life onto another, and saying "You should be happy because THEY are." Until someone walks a mile in another's shoes, it's no good to judge their situation. Someone live my life for a few days, in my body, and THEN we'll discuss judging whether or not I SHOULD be happy just because I have certain things others don't.

 

 

I know nothing about you other than this thread...so team me...what do you think you are doing wrong? Why do you think you are at the top of your career?

 

In this post you are coming off as a gold digger...which also could be coming off in your intital encounters with men.

[Ami1uwant]

why not be happy? you foucs so much of the negative. why not more on the postive? i'm not saying always be happy. why not be happy more than you are sad?

 

 

I think she needs the half-full glass to be dumped on her head...

[denise_xo]

Tell ya what, as soon as they invent body-swapping, they can have mine, and we'll see if they can remain happy. It's no good photocopying one person's life onto another, and saying "You should be happy because THEY are." Until someone walks a mile in another's shoes, it's no good to judge their situation. Someone live my life for a few days, in my body, and THEN we'll discuss judging whether or not I SHOULD be happy just because I have certain things others don't.

 

The point isn't that you should be happy because they are. The point is that being negative versus being positive is partially a choice in terms of how we relate to the world. I'm not judging your situation. I'm questioning how you chose to approach it.

[verhrzn]

Why do you think you are at the top of your career?

 

In this post you are coming off as a gold digger...which also could be coming off in your intital encounters with men.

 

*Scratches head* A gold-digger? Seriously? Because I want someone to help me support a house and kids? I'm at the top of my field because I'm a liberal arts major who lucked into a job with IT, but am at the very top of the pay scale in my current job track.... and since I don't have the appropriate training, I can't move to another company with a higher income ceiling. And I can't GET the appropriate training without incurring more debt, which I could barely handle even if my income doubled.

 

why not be happy? you foucs so much of the negative. why not more on the postive? i'm not saying always be happy. why not be happy more than you are sad?

 

As soon as someone tells me exactly what positives I should be focusing on, I'll give that a try. You'll pardon me if I don't think "You're alive and breathing" is a positive so much as just a neutral "duh."