Anyone think MC ever had real positive benefit?

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

But you don't really strike me as a "forgiving" person at all. You strike me as a rather truculent, nasty person sanctimoniously pretending to be "holier than thou." I know a good place where you can put your anger.....if you need a suggestion:)

 

Therapy which does not serve to connect a person's behaviors with the consequences of those behaviors--which is what you seem to be advocating as "therapy"--is absolutely worthless. Thus if someone cheats on a spouse, or lies to a spouse about why they are acting strangely towards them, as did OP's spouse, the therapy must be able to get the person who cheated/lied to observe that consequences arise from those behaviors. That's not "blaming," that's merely acceptance of reality, which if you'd been trying to pay attention rather than just sharpening your claws at the expense of OP, you'd have seen is OP's wife's problem--she creates her own reality.

 

Good therapy will try to help the person in therapy to take responsibility for their actions and understand that there is a connection between their actions and the consequences of those actions, this is a way that therapy helps people learn they have control over what happens in their lives.

 

Bad therapy--the kind you seem to be advocating, and what OP has described--enables bad behavior by failing to hold people accountable for their actions.

 

Ironically, it seems that it's OP's wife who is blaming everyone but herself for the consequences of her actions. That's the precise point OP was making, yet you were so busy being nasty to him that you must have missed it.

 

Like, like, like, like, like, like!!!!! I'm going to frame this!!!

[trippi1432]

I have no interest in fighting with you. You are helping me make my points. I'm sorry for your painful past, but it's common sense that tells me that people who have that kind of past are deeply affected, and have trouble seeing reality for what it really is. And for some reason you (people) seem to always misunderstand what people say and think you're being blamed. You don't understand a person who isn't passive aggressive or who really doesn't need to put you down to feel good. It's like "normal" people and "damaged" people don't speak the same language.

 

 

Before you think I'm insensitive, let me be clear. I hate that these horrible things happen to anyone. And I hope whatever you do with therapy or otherwise helps you "get better".

 

Actually, you and DuckSoup just helped me fix everything with your posts that my therapist, which was done a year ago and well, thought I learned to forgive my parents, my life and move on to a better place have reminded me that I am a "damaged" person and don't have a place in a "normal" world.

 

Hate to tell you this, but if you are here on LS.....your normal world just left the planet...welcome to "DAMAGED".

[trippi1432]

Now I have two haters....Gawd I feel special...LS has gone to the pits lately.

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Actually, you and DuckSoup just helped me fix everything with your posts that my therapist, which was done a year ago and well, thought I learned to forgive my parents, my life and move on to a better place have reminded me that I am a "damaged" person and don't have a place in a "normal" world.

 

Hate to tell you this, but if you are here on LS.....your normal world just left the planet...welcome to "DAMAGED".

 

I agree. I have been damaged, and I have been scarred. However, because I wasn't damaged at an early age, I will always see reality more clearly than you. Sorry.

 

 

Ever hear the phrase, "hurting people hurt people"? It's true.

 

Keep your chin up girl.

[trippi1432]

Actually, DuckSoup...I was posting back to post #4 of the OP, but he has been stuck in his anger for several posts now which is wasted energy. If I am nasty, I've been right where he was because I loved someone more than myself...lessons can be learned the hard way. So thank you for you analogy, when you have a story to tell instead of comments to be made, perhaps you would get more than this rebuttal.

 

I agree. I have been damaged, and I have been scarred. However, because I wasn't damaged at an early age, I will always see reality more clearly than you. Sorry.

 

 

Ever hear the phrase, "hurting people hurt people"? It's true.

 

Keep your chin up girl.

 

So you deny that you are angry over the diagnosis and now since I have admitted that I have the same sort of past your estranged wife has I am now "hurting people hurt people" when you are obviously angry?

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Actually, DuckSoup...I was posting back to post #4 of the OP, but he has been stuck in his anger for several posts now which is wasted energy. If I am nasty, I've been right where he was because I loved someone more than myself...lessons can be learned the hard way. So thank you for you analogy, when you have a story to tell instead of comments to be made, perhaps you would get more than this rebuttal.

 

 

 

So you deny that you are angry over the diagnosis and now since I have admitted that I have the same sort of past your estranged wife has I am now "hurting people hurt people" when you are obviously angry?

 

I will simply have to ignore you after this because I'm laughing so hard I'm going to need a hernia operation. I'm angry at the former counselor for her negligence, YES. I'm angry over the repercussions that her incompetence has had for nearly two f'in years, YES. But I'm sad that I have no idea if my wife has the ability to see the truth OR reality. I'm relieved now that I know what has clearly been an invisible barrier between us, and that I wasn't crazy for believing what I was sensing...uh oh common sense again. Actually, that kind of sense to know what is going on without "knowing" what is going on is more of a gift. A gift that I would postulate (look it up) that angry, damaged people can only dream about.

 

 

Don't worry if you don't get anything I'm saying. I'm speaking clear English.

[tojaz]

Spoken like a true greedy psycho-babbling shrink! No one is ever right, and no one is ever wrong. My wife had an alcoholic father who attempted suicide five times (two or three times in front of her), and was sexually assaulted at 19. You tell me oh wise one who is most likely to have more BPD traits? Or who is most likely to be screwed up. Sometimes common sense still works, but you therapists don't believe in that do you?

 

There are quite a few people that know me on LS that are laughing pretty hard right now... and not just at your laughable blind rage.

 

I'm no therapist. Not even close. I share experiences I have lived or seen with my own eyes for what they are.

 

I learned about BPD when my own therapist suggested my ex might suffer from it and from my ex accusing me of having it prior to that. Rather then flying off the handle and looking for someone to blame I did some research and went back to my therapist with more about my ex and moved on, because i was not looking for some disorder to pin it all on, I really needed to know what had gone wrong.

 

I went to therapy looking for answers where ever I might find them rather then just a target for my anger and frustration, and that allowed it to work for me. You went in looking for a way to justify your preexisting hate and clung to the first thing that let you do that. To each his own, you and Duck can grab a beer and talk about how the whole world screwed you over. The rest of us are going to rejoin it. Maybe when you reach a point where you will allow yourself to worry about emotions, you can reach a point where you can too.

 

TOJAZ

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Whether my wife actually could be clinically diagnosed with BPD is irrelevant. I realize it won't happen. I jumped to conclusions because of your wishy-washy post. If you were a therapist or more familiar with professional counseling, you'd know that most if not all of them are VERY reluctant to label anyone with BPD. She cheated. She goes to alanon. She is ACOA. She was sexually assaulted. She was angry 90% of our first 13 years of marriage. She is in a support group for cheaters (which I don't condone or recommend!). A father figure/pastor of hers in a counseling session once asked her if she realized that she had a tendency to create chaos out of peace!And I'm the monster with BPD who she needs to protect herself from?!

 

 

C'mon people. I've been bitter. I've been angry. No kidding.

 

 

I'm enthusiastically loving the fact that my perspective of reality has been validated. It's up to her to realize the truth. Counseling hasn't gotten it done because, one, she hasn't been honest, but mostly with herself. Damaged people have a really hard time with that (being honest with themselves). I'll know better for my kids. Hopefully my experience will help them not make the same mistakes.

[DuckSoup]

OP, if you possibly think you made a "mistake," and are looking at the whole relationship from that standpoint, in a big picture way, it would probably be in the area of trying to figure out whether or not you exhibited some unhealthy form of co-dependency.

 

Obviously marriage and having a family with another person implies a huge amount of interdependent behavior which ordinarily is fine.

 

But when one of the partners is seriously disturbed or dysfunctional, as your wife seems to be (regardless of any formal diagnosis of BPD or anything else), the other partner, in order to remain in the relationship long-term, usually ends up having to modify their own behavior in various ways to accomodate the dysfunctional partner. In doing so, the "secondary" partner provides support which actually helps the "primary"/disturbed partner function and remain in a bad status quo. This is not to blame the secondary/codependent partner, it's just to recognize that a relationship is a cooperative endeavor.

 

We all have our quirks and typically successful relationships require a lot of bending and adaptation on both parties' part. However there is a line somewhere which can unknowingly be crossed and you don't even realize that you are stuck in a very unhealthy dynamic: "How did I get here?" Often personality disorders get worse over time as people age, so the secondary/codependent spouse is forced to bend more and more to accommodate the disturbed spouse.

 

I would guess if you looked back in hindsight you could probably see a lot of situations in the past in which your wife exhibited strange, inappropriate, inexplicable, or unhealthy behavior of some kind, and you may have felt yourself forced to accomodate it, cover it up, compensate for it on her behalf, or at a minimum, suck it up and ignore it.

 

It's hard for anyone to realize they are in that situation when it's happening. We all see our spouses through rose colored glasses at least at the beginning and tend to minimize or overlook their flaws, or at least envision that we are "helping" them and that with our "help" they can overcome these flaws.

 

Unfortunately, when the flaw is a personality disorder like BPD or something that might not quite be a personality disorder but strongly suggests it, one is generally talking about deep-rooted issues stretching back to childhood, arising long before the two spouses even got together. Generally some form of extreme chaos or disturbance in the family of origin, which severely damages the person as a child, and which in some more or less direct or indirect form the wounded child, as an adult, then brings into their own adult relationships.

 

Of course understanding all that doesn't excuse either of the spouses from trying to maintain a healthy relationship. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like your wife ever got competent therapy to help her even start to address her "issues", in fact, she got incompetent therapy which made things even worse.

 

Some of the comments on this thread have indeed been informative as there are some good exemplars of how a disturbed mind processes input. The output is never objective, because the objective of the processing by a disturbed mind is never to try to better understand reality. Rather the disturbed mind's purpose in processing input is to provide itself with support and evidence confirming the existing viewpoint, which is the disturbed mind's ego defense system. Thus rather than objective comments on your own situation (such as I have tried to provide), you will get comments tieing "everything" into some aspect of the commentator's own life, no matter that your life is not someone else's life, in a way which is not an argument by analogy, but an effort at self-justification by the disturbed commentator.

 

To the disturbed commentator, it is necessary that you agree with their viewpoint, not for your own benefit, but for theirs, and your failure to agree is scary to them because it forces them to question their own reality. Since disturbed people above all else don't want to question their version of reality, such disagreement tends to generate a lot of backlash and hostility from the disturbed person.

[tojaz]

Whether my wife actually could be clinically diagnosed with BPD is irrelevant. I realize it won't happen. I jumped to conclusions because of your wishy-washy post. If you were a therapist or more familiar with professional counseling, you'd know that most if not all of them are VERY reluctant to label anyone with BPD. She cheated. She goes to alanon. She is ACOA. She was sexually assaulted. She was angry 90% of our first 13 years of marriage. She is in a support group for cheaters (which I don't condone or recommend!). A father figure/pastor of hers in a counseling session once asked her if she realized that she had a tendency to create chaos out of peace!And I'm the monster with BPD who she needs to protect herself from?!

Did I say you were the one with BPD? No, I said that neither party involved had enough information or enough experience with the person they were "diagnosing". It would be a lot like if I had asked a therapist to analyze you based solely on this thread. Would that be a valid representation of you? There is no checklist, "Oh she goes to Alanon? then she must have a disorder! She creates chaos? Looks like shes not the only one!

 

If thats too wishy-washy for you there are whole lists of disorders ready to be assigned to every man woman and child. Like Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Intermittent Explosive Disorder.

 

I'm enthusiastically loving the fact that my perspective of reality has been validated. It's up to her to realize the truth. Counseling hasn't gotten it done because, one, she hasn't been honest, but mostly with herself. Damaged people have a really hard time with that (being honest with themselves). I'll know better for my kids. Hopefully my experience will help them not make the same mistakes.

Don't you mean YOUR truth?

 

TOJAZ

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Once again, DuckSoup gets it. I did change as time went on. I'm not sure it was classic codependence. I actually wouldn't take her ****, and would point out her errors in many instances. About half the time I would just withdraw and ironically that was one action that made her even more crazy and angry. I couldn't win either way as you have so eloquently pointed out.

 

Sorry Tojaz. There is such a thing as truth.

[tojaz]

 

Sorry Tojaz. There is such a thing as truth.

 

So by all means share "The Truth" for those of us not as enlightened as yourself

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

So by all means share "The Truth" for those of us not as enlightened as yourself

 

I have BPD.

 

 

I don't have BPD.

 

 

ONE of those statements in true.

 

 

ONE of those statements is false.

 

 

What is difficult about this?

[tojaz]

I have BPD.

 

 

I don't have BPD.

 

 

ONE of those statements in true.

 

 

ONE of those statements is false.

 

 

What is difficult about this?

 

You tell me? Yes one of those statements is true and one of those statements would then obviously have to be false. So which one is it?

 

Of course that would depend on the Dr. giving the diagnosis, the facts that Dr. was given, their training and experience in the field etc. That is of course if one would choose to have an evaluation done in order to make it an actual truth rather then just speculation in the first place. Until that happens it is just your truth and nothing more.

 

Maybe she does have it, maybe not, the world will probably never know for sure, but who does or doesn't have BPD really isn't the point, because having that knowledge really doesn't change your situation. It just gives it a name.

 

So lets say she faces that truth you need her to so badly, goes out, gets evaluated comes back with a definitive diagnosis.... now what???

 

TOJAZ

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

I'm not looking to diagnose her. If I had to guess she would not get officially diagnosed unless there are things I don't know about, which is certainly possible. All I know is I don't have BPD. It's ok for anyone to think that I do except my wife. It just wouldn't work.

 

Now as for MY truth...I don't need a "professional" to tell me what is obvious. I don't need to be tested for a disease I don't have symptoms for. Don't be angry with me because I want to assert that I have a better handle on reality than some others because I had a well adjusted childhood. The turtle man is better equipped to catch critters in the wilderness because he grew up doing it. Coaches kids in any sport if they have some talent, tend to be better than the average kid without a coach in the family. Kids who have entrepreneurs as parents are usually better equipped to be an employer when the grow up than the kids who have parents who work in a factory. I'm not trying to be a hater. We all make value judgements this way, for example when we choose a nanny or babysitter for our kids. Or how about when we take our car in for repair? We are looking for good results, but we also will move to the next shop if something gives us the creeps or we think they are taking advantage somehow.

 

 

That's what I think some of us are irritated about with counselors today. They don't want to call a spade a spade. They want to make everything relative. They want to make every problem or wrong doing into a misunderstanding. They want to validate feelings no matter how that feeling was arrived at or whether that feeling should have any basis in reality.

 

 

This dim witted lady that I've referred to is a Christian which I think can be even worse. She clearly had some things that she agreed with me about that needed to be brought up to my wife, but thought that it was the holy spirit's job to enlighten her!

[DuckSoup]

This dim witted lady that I've referred to is a Christian which I think can be even worse. She clearly had some things that she agreed with me about that needed to be brought up to my wife, but thought that it was the holy spirit's job to enlighten her!

If the Christian one didn't work out, have you tried an Islamic marital counselor yet? I hear those folks don't believe in the husband having to put up with this kind of crap from the wife.

[M30USA]

If the Christian one didn't work out, have you tried an Islamic marital counselor yet? I hear those folks don't believe in the husband having to put up with this kind of crap from the wife.

 

I think before someone picks a counsellor they really need to research well. Counsellors come in all shapes.

[tojaz]

I'm not looking to diagnose her. If I had to guess she would not get officially diagnosed unless there are things I don't know about, which is certainly possible. All I know is I don't have BPD. It's ok for anyone to think that I do except my wife. It just wouldn't work.

 

Now as for MY truth...I don't need a "professional" to tell me what is obvious. I don't need to be tested for a disease I don't have symptoms for. Don't be angry with me because I want to assert that I have a better handle on reality than some others because I had a well adjusted childhood. The turtle man is better equipped to catch critters in the wilderness because he grew up doing it. Coaches kids in any sport if they have some talent, tend to be better than the average kid without a coach in the family. Kids who have entrepreneurs as parents are usually better equipped to be an employer when the grow up than the kids who have parents who work in a factory. I'm not trying to be a hater. We all make value judgements this way, for example when we choose a nanny or babysitter for our kids. Or how about when we take our car in for repair? We are looking for good results, but we also will move to the next shop if something gives us the creeps or we think they are taking advantage somehow.

 

 

That's what I think some of us are irritated about with counselors today. They don't want to call a spade a spade. They want to make everything relative. They want to make every problem or wrong doing into a misunderstanding. They want to validate feelings no matter how that feeling was arrived at or whether that feeling should have any basis in reality.

 

 

This dim witted lady that I've referred to is a Christian which I think can be even worse. She clearly had some things that she agreed with me about that needed to be brought up to my wife, but thought that it was the holy spirit's job to enlighten her!

 

The part your missing rose is that I'm not defending your wife or the therapist. I don't know either one of them.

 

What I do see is you taking issue with a therapists validating feelings and then ask that we validate your "better grip on reality".

 

All of that IS relative because your the one telling the story. You are at once asking that your feelings be validated yet that courtesy cannot be extended to anyone else. That was the point of the first post about BPD being overly misused, because so many people feel that, just because someone is doing something that goes against their own feelings they must have a disorder and then go in search of one that fits, just so they can proclaim to the world that they are not the one that is broken and that they are the victim. Nobody cares whos fault it is, thats why I pointed out that her having a disorder really didn't change your situation, it just gives a label to put it under, the problems still exist and still need to be dealt with. IF you come to me and say you have a bad battery in your car and I correct you and tell you that the cable is broken, it doesn't matter just as it doesn't matter how it got broken, who broke it, who made the cable etc. It doesn't change anything, you still have to figure out how your getting home.

 

Save the blame for court if it goes that route, until then put your focus to something more beneficial.

 

So asking again, What Now?

 

TOJAZ

 

P.S. Agree 100% on the religious counselors. Too many gray areas as it is without adding a third party's religious beliefs into the mix.

Edited August 7, 2012 by tojaz

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Ok, what now? Well there has to be an ability and willingness to accept reality or I think we'll just butt heads too much of the time and/or she will resort to mistreating me again or cheating again, and I'll file. The reality is that I'm not even close to any kind of mental disorder, and that would be the first place to start. If she is somehow going to insist that I do, then I imagine we'll be finished.

 

This current counselor has recently assigned a book "reconcilable differences". Not sure if we'll check it out or not at this point, but my gut tells me to quit counseling for now.

 

 

I feel fantastic, and I don't need any validation. I will not be doubting my perception of reality or myself for a very long time. My experience has shown me that my senses are very accurate.

 

 

Am I being too dogmatic? Is it unfair of me to claim a more accurate perspective of reality than my wife? Is it just "my truth"? When one spouse has Alzheimer's and the other doesn't, I don't think we'd say this. I don't think this is much different. And I don't need any validation from you or anyone else.

 

 

Thank you all for your opinions. Bottom line, I put thumbs down on marriage counseling. Still undecided on individual counseling.

[tojaz]

Good luck to you, you both have a long, rough, uphill road ahead of you.

[trippi1432]

I've been trying to protect them from her and a divorce at the same time. It's a lose-lose (as I've described to another poster). If I separate or divorce, they will be exposed to her without me around. If I stay, at least I can protect them a little.

 

I want to like her because I want her to be likable! If she is likable, I suspect that she will have processed her stupid past and become a better person.

 

And here is where the problem lies, you think that you can fix her to fit in your world. The fact is......drum roll, YOU CAN"T. She has no place in your reality. You simply cannot fit a square peg in a round hole. A: You either need to broaden your reality to accept her as she is (damaged) or B: Put on the brakes and work on yourself to get over this.

 

How many years have you spent in counseling? Really? To get over her cheating 3 years ago, et all? If you haven't gotten over it by now, it's no wonder the MC book got turned back on you.....getting over infidelity is not "it's my perception of reality for the next 30/40 years of our life".....it's moving on from it with or without her.

 

Good luck...signed "Typical damaged woman who survived infidelity by making good boundaries because she learned and had a wonderful foundation for 12 years of her life". Dang...hope that didn't sound too damaged, just trying to speak "Clear English" here.

Edited August 8, 2012 by trippi1432

[dreamingoftigers]

Perhaps to lay the matter to rest and possibly seek an answer for your wife as well, an agreement that you will take an independent mental health evaluation through a psychiatrist ONLY if she does do as well.

 

That way if she does "pop a positive" with the BPD herself, it can be addressed pretty instantaneously.

 

Where did you find these "counselors" from. Jumping the gun on a diagnosis they are not qualified to make is ... Unethical.

 

Ok, what now? Well there has to be an ability and willingness to accept reality or I think we'll just butt heads too much of the time and/or she will resort to mistreating me again or cheating again, and I'll file. The reality is that I'm not even close to any kind of mental disorder, and that would be the first place to start. If she is somehow going to insist that I do, then I imagine we'll be finished.

 

This current counselor has recently assigned a book "reconcilable differences". Not sure if we'll check it out or not at this point, but my gut tells me to quit counseling for now.

 

 

I feel fantastic, and I don't need any validation. I will not be doubting my perception of reality or myself for a very long time. My experience has shown me that my senses are very accurate.

 

 

Am I being too dogmatic? Is it unfair of me to claim a more accurate perspective of reality than my wife? Is it just "my truth"? When one spouse has Alzheimer's and the other doesn't, I don't think we'd say this. I don't think this is much different. And I don't need any validation from you or anyone else.

 

 

Thank you all for your opinions. Bottom line, I put thumbs down on marriage counseling. Still undecided on individual counseling.

[trippi1432]

Perhaps to lay the matter to rest and possibly seek an answer for your wife as well, an agreement that you will take an independent mental health evaluation through a psychiatrist ONLY if she does do as well.

 

That way if she does "pop a positive" with the BPD herself, it can be addressed pretty instantaneously.

 

Where did you find these "counselors" from. Jumping the gun on a diagnosis they are not qualified to make is ... Unethical.

 

Given the original post on the forums, this has been going on a pretty good while:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/334476-can-you-come-back-hate''

 

Hate the counselor you picked...but don't hate the advice you get from the forums from people who do take their time.

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

Good luck to you, you both have a long, rough, uphill road ahead of you.

 

Thanks. I think I've gone through the worst of it.

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

How many years have you spent in counseling? Really? To get over her cheating 3 years ago, et all? If you haven't gotten over it by now, it's no wonder the MC book got turned back on you.....getting over infidelity is not "it's my perception of reality for the next 30/40 years of our life".....it's moving on from it with or without her.

 

Getting over the affair was easier than getting over the way my wife threw me under the bus during the "recovery" phase. That's what was so freeing when I finally realized one of the reasons we weren't making progress....she was mislead by an incompetent counselor and in my opinion she took that to the bank to protect herself from more guilt and shame of what she did.

 

 

Now you should stop worrying about what I need to fix or not fix. Or trying to figure out what I'm trying to do with my wife. If I thought I could fix her, i wouldn't be spending so much damn money on her counselor. I really don't know why you got so stuck on that part of my post anyway. She really had a bunch of stuff to process with her therapist. She still does. Is 3 years too long for that too?