Third Date Syndrome

[stillwater]

I would imagine the answer to that is just like the answer to a LT LDR. It feels wonderful for a period of time and then it normally stinks. An A is no different. The first few months your description is probably apt. After that it's not. At least in my limited experience and in what I've read on this forum for a few years now anyway.

Exactly this. For the first couple months, the limited access and "drama" of sneaking around I'm sure heightened the emotions. After that, it became the exact opposite and was a source of frustration. I didn't want that crap anymore. If it was so great, I'd still be in the A.

[Summer Breeze]

Exactly this. For the first couple months, the limited access and "drama" of sneaking around I'm sure heightened the emotions. After that, it became the exact opposite and was a source of frustration. I didn't want that crap anymore. If it was so great, I'd still be in the A.

 

And that is exactly why I say it is such a misconception that As stay in third date mode any longer than any other R.

[Summer Breeze]

I'd hazard to say that EMRs are likely to stay in third date mode shorter than other Rs because of the difficult issues that immediately come with the territory.

 

I tend to think you may be right about this Trinity.

[Owl]

Being in a long term LDR and EMR I can say that my experience is that both these aspects are a turn-off, not a turn-on.

 

I can understand that. But both being LDR, and an affair relationship also prevent the day to day, hour by hour, minute by minute interaction that a marriage TYPICALLY entails (yes, I know there are exceptions).

 

Those same "turn offs" are a huge part of why people believe that "third date syndrome" exists.

 

They maintain a distance, a seperation (potentially both physical and emotional, esp in your situation where it's LDR as well) that can PROLONG that "fantasy period". You don't have to pick up his clothes everyday, spray the air freshener in the restroom everytime you go in there after he's been in there, etc... The "honeymoon" phase lasts longer because there's so much less opportunity for negative interactions to ruin it.

 

Instead, you can both continue to show the better parts of yourselves to each other, and minimize the negatives...thus keeping the limerance alive longer than happens in 'standard' relationships that are able to progress normally, without interference or limitations imposed by the fact that one person is married and maintaining this as a secret relationship.

[jwi71]

And that is exactly why I say it is such a misconception that As stay in third date mode any longer than any other R.

 

Interesting observation(s).

 

LS appears to be full of stories where an AP wants more and the married partner (or one married partner) chooses not to.

 

That, by definition, is stuck.

 

As to love between AP's. This, I'm becoming more convinced is not true.

No doubt there are feelings, sometimes long held and deep felt, but I wouldn't not think them love. Codependency is perhaps a better word.

 

I say this based on a very simple, yet effective, litmus test.

 

Are the AP's doing what is best for the other AP?

 

As a qualifier, though optional, I define best as exactly that. What, given a range of options, has the best outcome for the OP (within reason - and you better believe love has limits and conditions).

 

What I have found is AP's wants what is best for themselves. Not so much the AP.

 

My thoughts anyway.

[Summer Breeze]

I can understand that. But both being LDR, and an affair relationship also prevent the day to day, hour by hour, minute by minute interaction that a marriage TYPICALLY entails (yes, I know there are exceptions).

 

Those same "turn offs" are a huge part of why people believe that "third date syndrome" exists.

 

They maintain a distance, a seperation (potentially both physical and emotional, esp in your situation where it's LDR as well) that can PROLONG that "fantasy period". You don't have to pick up his clothes everyday, spray the air freshener in the restroom everytime you go in there after he's been in there, etc... The "honeymoon" phase lasts longer because there's so much less opportunity for negative interactions to ruin it.

 

Instead, you can both continue to show the better parts of yourselves to each other, and minimize the negatives...thus keeping the limerance alive longer than happens in 'standard' relationships that are able to progress normally, without interference or limitations imposed by the fact that one person is married and maintaining this as a secret relationship.

 

What is the logic that not picking up someones clothes and smelling the bathroom after they're done has any bearing on anything? Do you think that when APs are together they don't use the toilet or make messes? Do you really think they don't snap at each other? What about emails and text messages where the tone is read wrong by the recipient and an argument ensues? What about spending habits when you're together or who prefers to do the dishes after dinner and is angry in the morning when the other hasn't done them and the kitchen's a mess. What about when one is a nightowl and the other an earlybird? What about when you plan a trip away and end up sick and throwing up the whole time? What about when a birthday isn't remembered? What about the tub not being cleaned after he has a bath. After just a couple of times these things get on nerves just like in any other R. The time, and I assume distance, doesn't make it easier or more magical. It might make the first half hour pretty interesting but overall it adds more bad than good.

[Summer Breeze]

But the "limitations" of an A are often blamed on the situational aspect of what an A entails. How can you possibly know if you and he would have worked out in a "regular" R since you never lived it with him?

 

I think that's the point people are trying to make when they say an A is "stuck" at a certain level which precludes a lot of the normal "humdrum" that every day life brings to ANY R.

 

I am talking about third date syndrome here. How can I tell if the guy I'm dating now is M material? I don't know. A lot of people haven't lived together and manage to get M and live together just fine.

 

The last paragraph - yes but they are saying it's stuck at some wonderful place. I'm saying it isn't. I know what they're saying and repeating it over and over and over again is not going to make the people, like me, who have been involved in said situation change. What happened and what it was is what happened and what it was. It was never stuck in a place that we didn't show our warts and wrinkles.

[Summer Breeze]

Interesting observation(s).

 

LS appears to be full of stories where an AP wants more and the married partner (or one married partner) chooses not to.

 

That, by definition, is stuck.

 

As to love between AP's. This, I'm becoming more convinced is not true.

No doubt there are feelings, sometimes long held and deep felt, but I wouldn't not think them love. Codependency is perhaps a better word.

 

I say this based on a very simple, yet effective, litmus test.

 

Are the AP's doing what is best for the other AP?

 

As a qualifier, though optional, I define best as exactly that. What, given a range of options, has the best outcome for the OP (within reason - and you better believe love has limits and conditions).

 

What I have found is AP's wants what is best for themselves. Not so much the AP.

 

My thoughts anyway.

 

In all fairness they are great thoughts and I enjoy reading about them on the forum but this particular thread is about people feeling that As are stuck in third date mode.

[Owl]

What is the logic that not picking up someones clothes and smelling the bathroom after they're done has any bearing on anything? Do you think that when APs are together they don't use the toilet or make messes? Do you really think they don't snap at each other? What about emails and text messages where the tone is read wrong by the recipient and an argument ensues? What about spending habits when you're together or who prefers to do the dishes after dinner and is angry in the morning when the other hasn't done them and the kitchen's a mess. What about when one is a nightowl and the other an earlybird? What about when you plan a trip away and end up sick and throwing up the whole time? What about when a birthday isn't remembered? What about the tub not being cleaned after he has a bath. After just a couple of times these things get on nerves just like in any other R. The time, and I assume distance, doesn't make it easier or more magical. It might make the first half hour pretty interesting but overall it adds more bad than good.

 

The point...clearly missed by many...is that living with someone day in and day out is a far, far, far different depth of relationship than maintaining a hidden, secret affair in which the amount and depth of interaction is typically limited by the nature of being a clandestine relationship to begin with.

 

And...to tie this to the original topic...that very LACK of depth is what causes it to be compared to being forever stuck in a "third date syndrome" mode.

 

I'll post no more to this...I feel that the reason this message is so hard to get across is because it's not a comfortable one for those folks to consider.

[Summer Breeze]

The point...clearly missed by many...is that living with someone day in and day out is a far, far, far different depth of relationship than maintaining a hidden, secret affair in which the amount and depth of interaction is typically limited by the nature of being a clandestine relationship to begin with.

 

And...to tie this to the original topic...that very LACK of depth is what causes it to be compared to being forever stuck in a "third date syndrome" mode.

 

I'll post no more to this...I feel that the reason this message is so hard to get across is because it's not a comfortable one for those folks to consider.

 

 

No offense Owl but I think you're missing the point from people who lived it. It's not a matter of being uncomfortable with the topic and what you're saying, it's just that we disagree from our own experiences. I understand everything you're saying but I disagree with it. It would be no different to me saying over and over again about how it's impossible to reconcile with someone who had an A because they are a cheater. Your personal experience trumps my belief. Just because it isn't my experience or belief doesn't make it impossible.

 

If you read the posts we all understand what you're trying to say but it just doesn't fit. Warts and wrinkles and problems arise as quickly in an A as in any other R. They may be different types of wards, wrinkles, and problems but they are there. The other thing is that just because you haven't lived with someone it doesn't mean you're not exposed to many of the same issues. It doesn't take long for it all to be very hum drum and the difficult parts to overshadow some of the good.

[Owl]

I don't agree. Whether you live together or not is not what determines the depth of a relationship. It is the combination of the two individuals.

 

And as always, I can agree to disagree.

 

You can have two awesome individuals that want to have a relationship...but if they're interaction is limited, it will limit their ability to build that relationship. Living together is a HUGE adjustment for both folks...for precisely the reason stated...because it causes much more interaction (both positive and negative) due to proximity.

 

But...I know you don't agree...and there we are.

[Owl]

No offense Owl but I think you're missing the point from people who lived it. It's not a matter of being uncomfortable with the topic and what you're saying, it's just that we disagree from our own experiences. I understand everything you're saying but I disagree with it. It would be no different to me saying over and over again about how it's impossible to reconcile with someone who had an A because they are a cheater. Your personal experience trumps my belief. Just because it isn't my experience or belief doesn't make it impossible.

 

If you read the posts we all understand what you're trying to say but it just doesn't fit. Warts and wrinkles and problems arise as quickly in an A as in any other R. They may be different types of wards, wrinkles, and problems but they are there. The other thing is that just because you haven't lived with someone it doesn't mean you're not exposed to many of the same issues. It doesn't take long for it all to be very hum drum and the difficult parts to overshadow some of the good.

 

Actually...I get your point.

 

However...I don't believe that you CAN agree with my viewpoint...BECAUSE you live/lived it.

 

If you agreed...it would force you to see your relationships in a far less comfortable light and viewpoint.

 

And most people simply cannot and will not do that...

 

Which is why we've got to agree to disagree...and walk away.

[Owl]

The difference, as usual, being I have experience of both and you don't.

 

And that very experience is WHY you can't see my viewpoint...as I stated earlier to SB.

 

Again...I don't want to get infracted here, so I'm DONE.

[Summer Breeze]

I don't think ANY relationship gets stuck in "third date mode." That's a nice little phrase to cling to if one wants to attempt to dispel the notion that an A is exactly the same as a non-A R.

 

And that's just exactly my point. It's a notion that feels like BS use as a coping mechanism and it's just simply not true in many (forgive me I don't have stats, just my readings and IRL) cases. It's a nice little phrase that is tossed around and has no real validity as far as I can see.

 

I'm not saying As and nonA Rs are the same because they aren't. But because they aren't the same doesn't mean they are some sort of fantasy land and easily dismissed because they aren't difficult or humdrum enough to be valid Rs.

[Summer Breeze]

Actually...I get your point.

 

However...I don't believe that you CAN agree with my viewpoint...BECAUSE you live/lived it.

 

If you agreed...it would force you to see your relationships in a far less comfortable light and viewpoint.

 

And most people simply cannot and will not do that...

 

Which is why we've got to agree to disagree...and walk away.

 

You can believe, or not believe, what you wish. I see everyone here who has been in an A being very honest about the way things looked from the inside. I don't quite understand how you think anyone is saying it would change the view of our Rs. No one is saying they were superior to anything we're just saying they matured and changed just like any other R. We're not comparing them to Ms. We're not saying they were/are worse or better than any R. They matured and had good and bad but anything mystical or magical or resembling a third date didn't stick around long. Real life intrudes in ANY R.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree as well.

[Owl]

Of course I can not see something I have the experience of knowing is not true in my case. My experience trumps your assumptions as SB said. To agree with your viewpoint I would have to deny my own experience as if it never happened. You have no such experience which intervenes with you constructing your point of view. It's like standing outside a house you've never been in and telling the people who live in it how it feels to be inside the house and be sure you are right. Those people will just shake their heads at you. They know what it's like.

 

Or...it could be like standing in the raised platform above the hedge maze...watching the folks running THROUGH the maze while you're seeing the whole thing from above.

 

From the inside...they can't see the whole thing. From the outside, you have a completely unobstructed view.

 

In relationships...when you're "in" the relationship and the emotions are running high/etc...it's hard to get that objective view. You're blinded by your own position, by your own motives, by your own desires and feelings.

 

That's why therapists and counselors exist. They can give you that "outside view" that you're unable to have because of your own proximity to the situation.

 

You believe that your experience "trumps" my external viewpoint. I disagree...I believe it's your very experience that is obstructing your view.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Owl

[Owl]

I have had two long term relationships before this one. My view of them did not change just because they ended. It could be that I'm very clear-sighted and conscious of what is going on already while in the relationship. Some people look the other way. I look straight at the issues.

 

It could be.

 

Or it might not be.

 

Regardless...I think we've discussed the original topic as far as we're going to between us.

[stillwater]

Or...it could be like standing in the raised platform above the hedge maze...watching the folks running THROUGH the maze while you're seeing the whole thing from above.

 

From the inside...they can't see the whole thing. From the outside, you have a completely unobstructed view.

 

In relationships...when you're "in" the relationship and the emotions are running high/etc...it's hard to get that objective view. You're blinded by your own position, by your own motives, by your own desires and feelings.

 

That's why therapists and counselors exist. They can give you that "outside view" that you're unable to have because of your own proximity to the situation.

 

You believe that your experience "trumps" my external viewpoint. I disagree...I believe it's your very experience that is obstructing your view.

 

Except a lot of us commenting on the issue are no longer in the maze. So we're up there on that platform with you, with the added benefit that we've also been down there inside the maze, which gives us a different perspective.

 

Anyway, I think the whole thing depends on what you're comparing affair relationships to. If you're comparing an A to a M, you're correct in that there isn't the same level of day-in/day-out mundane interaction in an A that there is in a M. But if you're comparing an A to dating, the day-to-day stuff really isn't all that different. I saw xMW as much as I would if we were dating, we did similar things, progressed at a similar rate (until we hit that ceiling of course), etc.

 

My A lasted less than a year, and I've never had a <1 year relationship that involved babies puking, living together, etc. Does that mean a 10-month out-in-the-open relationship isn't a real relationship, because it those stresses don't exist yet? And frankly, there were a lot more stresses in the A relationship than any normal dating relationship I've been in, given the timeframe.

[Owl]

Except a lot of us commenting on the issue are no longer in the maze. So we're up there on that platform with you, with the added benefit that we've also been down there inside the maze, which gives us a different perspective.

 

Anyway, I think the whole thing depends on what you're comparing affair relationships to. If you're comparing an A to a M, you're correct in that there isn't the same level of day-in/day-out mundane interaction in an A that there is in a M. But if you're comparing an A to dating, the day-to-day stuff really isn't all that different. I saw xMW as much as I would if we were dating, we did similar things, progressed at a similar rate (until we hit that ceiling of course), etc.

 

My A lasted less than a year, and I've never had a <1 year relationship that involved babies puking, living together, etc. And frankly, there were a lot more stresses in the A relationship than any normal dating relationship.

 

Very relevent post. It raises a good point...if you're comparing an affair to dating, then there are a lot of similarities. If you compare it to a marriage, that's where the 'depth' comes in. An affair typically has "depth" more comparable to extended dating than to a marriage "depth" relationship.

 

The original topic compares an affair to a perpetual "third date"...which, given what I've already said about depth, I think is a comparison with some merit.

[Summer Breeze]

Except a lot of us commenting on the issue are no longer in the maze. So we're up there on that platform with you, with the added benefit that we've also been down there inside the maze, which gives us a different perspective.

 

Anyway, I think the whole thing depends on what you're comparing affair relationships to. If you're comparing an A to a M, you're correct in that there isn't the same level of day-in/day-out mundane interaction in an A that there is in a M. But if you're comparing an A to dating, the day-to-day stuff really isn't all that different. I saw xMW as much as I would if we were dating, we did similar things, progressed at a similar rate (until we hit that ceiling of course), etc.

 

My A lasted less than a year, and I've never had a <1 year relationship that involved babies puking, living together, etc. Does that mean a 10-month out-in-the-open relationship isn't a real relationship, because it those stresses don't exist yet? And frankly, there were a lot more stresses in the A relationship than any normal dating relationship I've been in, given the timeframe.

 

Thank you Stillwater. I think I said most of things just in no particular order and with much less elegance. Thank you. I'm looking for a personal translator if you need work!

[stillwater]

Very relevent post. It raises a good point...if you're comparing an affair to dating, then there are a lot of similarities. If you compare it to a marriage, that's where the 'depth' comes in. An affair typically has "depth" more comparable to extended dating than to a marriage "depth" relationship.

 

The original topic compares an affair to a perpetual "third date"...which, given what I've already said about depth, I think is a comparison with some merit.

 

I can see how there could be some merit, sure. Did I truly know her better, inside and out, after a few months than her H did after being together for however long? Most likely not. For me at least, the hang-up is with the "third date" comparison, specifically the "third" part. Mainly because I think that implies that it's just fantasy land, that you don't really know each other, you've never seen each others warts, you make sure you're always "on" when you're together, etc etc. All untrue. Basically I see that choice of baseline as belittling the relationship, when at least for me it grew in depth far beyond that of a third date very quickly (before it even became physical), so it's easy to see how it gets people's hackles up.

 

I'd also just like to point out that depth comes from actually interacting, not just being in physical proximity.

Edited August 2, 2012 by stillwater

[Owl]

I can see how there could be some merit, sure. Did I truly know her better, inside and out, after a few months than her H did after being together for however long? Most likely not. For me at least, the hang-up is with the "third date" comparison, specifically the "third" part. Mainly because I think that implies that it's just fantasy land, that you don't really know each other, you've never seen each others warts, you make sure you're always "on" when you're together, etc etc. All untrue. Basically I see that choice of baseline as belittling the relationship, when at least for me it grew in depth far beyond that of a third date very quickly (before it even became physical), so it's easy to see how it gets people's hackles up.

 

I'd also just like to point out that depth comes from actually interacting, not just being in physical proximity.

 

I'll agree with your last part about interaction creating "depth", not just proximity.

 

And I can absolutely understand why anyone who has been in an affair or is currently in one would/could find the comparison "belittling" and it "gets their hackles up".

 

As I've said earlier...not a comfortable thing to hear/see about a relationship that you've been/are involved in.

 

And...I think it's that very discomfort that raises the most strenuous objections to the phrase, rather than the validity or lack of validity of the phrase itself.

 

That's been my point...people in an affair won't agree with it.

 

Others, looking at it from an outside viewpoint...are more likely to do so. They don't have the "vested interest" in the phrase being untrue.

 

I don't particularly care for the phrase...nor do I really have an issue with it either.

 

I think there is some merit in that it is intended to point out that affairs typically don't follow the same timelines (because of those different factors and stressors) that a "normal" dating process does. Those factors can delay progression of the relationship into one with more depth...the "partners" are seperated longer because of the pre-existing relationship and prevented from deepening the affair relationship until the pre-existing one is dealt with.

 

The affair is "stuck" until the previous relationship is resolved. It can progress to a point...but until there is sufficient proximity and interaction (which normally can only be attained by ending the pre-existing relationship), there's a limit to how far it can progress. That's why many long term affairs end up stagnating and totally unchanging...for potentially several years...with no resolution or improvement.

 

Perhaps the phrase itself is less than flattering and could be worded nicer...but the base concept remains valid from my perspective.

 

Your (the general you, not a specific you) mileage may vary.

[Silly_Girl]

The point...clearly missed by many...is that living with someone day in and day out is a far, far, far different depth of relationship than maintaining a hidden, secret affair in which the amount and depth of interaction is typically limited by the nature of being a clandestine relationship to begin with.

 

And...to tie this to the original topic...that very LACK of depth is what causes it to be compared to being forever stuck in a "third date syndrome" mode.

 

I'll post no more to this...I feel that the reason this message is so hard to get across is because it's not a comfortable one for those folks to consider.

 

Whaaaat???

 

No one goes from meeting to Bang! living together. No one is saying an EMR is better/worse/same as living with someone.

 

But it's NOT a false magical place where you don't get to see the other person's $hit side. Many times it's not clandestine at all. There's a fat old dose of reality in it, from my experience.

 

I think some people find THAT unpalatable and so deny it; which they can easily do as they're the ones without the real life experience of it.

[Silly_Girl]

Actually...I get your point.

 

However...I don't believe that you CAN agree with my viewpoint...BECAUSE you live/lived it.

 

If you agreed...it would force you to see your relationships in a far less comfortable light and viewpoint.

 

And most people simply cannot and will not do that...

 

Which is why we've got to agree to disagree...and walk away.

 

Owl - can you see why I find this so arrogant? And how this is symbolic, to me, of a genre of posts that shouldn't be permitted on this board?

 

It says to me 'I'm right. I can't speak from experience. You're the one who's lived it. But I'm right and you're too darned stupid to realise I'm right!'

 

[MissBee]

I don't discount the experience you had, however, my affair has never been like dating. Not even a little, So to say that it is, would be patently false.

 

What is it like then?