Third Date Syndrome

[Summer Breeze]

Owl - can you see why I find this so arrogant? And how this is symbolic, to me, of a genre of posts that shouldn't be permitted on this board?

 

It says to me 'I'm right. I can't speak from experience. You're the one who's lived it. But I'm right and you're too darned stupid to realise I'm right!'

 

 

Thank you SG. I was going to come in and respond this morning. I was too enthralled in the Olympics to keep posting last night!

 

You've stated so well exactly my thoughts. I respect Owl's posts and viewpoints but to say that I/we CAN'T admit that an A isn't the same as an M is absurd. If you read the posts all the way through we've all said exactly that.

 

The original post -- mine -- was in regards to specific wording on other posts that belittle As as some magical place where no one ever gets past talking about how wonderful we are and we never face problems and there's never a cross word. That land does exist, as it does in ANY new R, but it passes as quickly if not quicker than in most Rs. That is the point of this thread. I never made any mention of comparisons to Ms and I never made it sound like this lack of a magical state of third dateness was some slight or bad point that we all had to run from and were afraid to admit. We all have admitted there are limitations and ceilings.

 

The Owl doth protest too much. His posts have me thinking more and more that it's a belief and coping mechanism for some BS.

 

Thanks for your 2 posts SG. They perfectly expressed my feelings.

 

How about that Gabby Douglas!?

[Got it]

Just a thought...but...would anyone who was actually in an affair ever actually want to admit...even just to themselves...that the affair was in any way less than equivilant to a "full blown relationship"?

 

The breakdown in logic here...that no one has ever seen anyone "in an affair" state that their relationship is "stuck in a third date stage"...must somehow mean that the statement that affairs aren't in some way equivilant to that...is just plain silly if you think about it.

 

No one in an affair will say that their affair was "less" than anything. To do so would be to face some really hard, painful facts about themselves and their choices...and affairs are by their very nature an ESCAPE from facing those exact things.

 

Just because someone currently engaged in the act doesn't say that they think that their situation is "something"....doesn't prove that the situation ISN'T "something". Being within the situation itself creates blind spots that they may not even be aware of...that prevent them from seeing the picture clearly like someone from the outside can.

 

Bottom line...I'd be shocked and astounded if you EVER got someone currently actively involved in an affair to admit that it was 'stuck at third base'...even if it was clearly so to everyone else in the world. That lack of admittance does not disqualify the statement.

 

Having been in an affair and now a long term relationship with the same man, no I honestly do not see a major difference in our dynamics. I have not been in the affair for a few years now so am saying I don't agree with the third date premise having experienced the before and after.

 

This is not saying all relationships are like this. Every relationship in every type is different based on the dynamics of the two individuals so I am not saying that it doesn't happen. All I can do is answer for myself and no. I don't agree nor have I experienced what you have stated.

[Got it]

I 've never had an affair, but I did have a very intense LDR once.

 

The unavailability, the limitations of time and distance was just over the top. Missing someone you cannot have access to all the time heightens the feelings, IMO.

 

The conversations and cards and emails take on an intensity of emotion that does not compare to someone you have access to day in and day out, anytime you want.

 

The progression of the relationship remains an unknown; it could vanish into thin air as one or the other partner decides it is not enough, too difficult, too many limitations.

 

For that reason, I believe I ALWAYS put my best "face" on when we did get to connect in person with each other, as did he. That, more than anything, to me, is the meaning behind a perpetual third date.

 

We didn't show our warts and wrinkles (though we admitted so much on a deep, and personal level) but without the responsibility of having to change or overcome or negotiate, so what?

 

The anticipation was sublime; the communication, soulful; the sex, off the charts, but since there could be no certainty of a future, we didn't place any real expectations on the relationship.

 

I'm not denigrating anyone's relationship. But even I knew long ago that most of that exquisite anticipation would go up in smoke if we had ever committed to a daily, 24/7 relationship.

 

Spark - interesting points.

 

I have to say, and I again preface this that my feelings may be in account of the timeline of events, etc. but I found the opposite with the LDR. Now I had already been in the EMR with him but with him local. We were out in the open when we went LDR.

 

I did not like LDR at all. It ended up better than I expected as I found I REALLY liked my alone time. I started seeing the silver linings about the distance and while I loved him, the fact he was so far removed made it easier to push him to the sidelines.

 

It maybe the timeline, or where this came into effect in our relationship but I was expecting to go to the highs and lows of my longing for him but that really didn't happen. I hated it, I did miss him, but that longing feeling really didn't materialize. I didn't get this amazing glow when I did see him again. I actually get that more when I see him daily.

 

In my case, I never bought into the LDR so I didn't bother with showing my best face. Actually the affair was like that to. I had my mistress meltdowns many a time. I give a lot but I expect a lot as well. I can say I have never filtered myself with him.

 

Wow . . . that was a revelation for me. Wow. Yep, I have been glaringly, in your face, 100% me with him, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Got it]

I 've never had an affair, but I did have a very intense LDR once.

 

The unavailability, the limitations of time and distance was just over the top. Missing someone you cannot have access to all the time heightens the feelings, IMO.

 

The conversations and cards and emails take on an intensity of emotion that does not compare to someone you have access to day in and day out, anytime you want.

 

The progression of the relationship remains an unknown; it could vanish into thin air as one or the other partner decides it is not enough, too difficult, too many limitations.

 

For that reason, I believe I ALWAYS put my best "face" on when we did get to connect in person with each other, as did he. That, more than anything, to me, is the meaning behind a perpetual third date.

 

We didn't show our warts and wrinkles (though we admitted so much on a deep, and personal level) but without the responsibility of having to change or overcome or negotiate, so what?

 

The anticipation was sublime; the communication, soulful; the sex, off the charts, but since there could be no certainty of a future, we didn't place any real expectations on the relationship.

 

I'm not denigrating anyone's relationship. But even I knew long ago that most of that exquisite anticipation would go up in smoke if we had ever committed to a daily, 24/7 relationship.

 

Spark - interesting points.

 

I have to say, and I again preface this that my feelings may be in account of the timeline of events, etc. but I found the opposite with the LDR. Now I had already been in the EMR with him but with him local. We were out in the open when we went LDR.

 

I did not like LDR at all. It ended up better than I expected as I found I REALLY liked my alone time. I started seeing the silver linings about the distance and while I loved him, the fact he was so far removed made it easier to push him to the sidelines.

 

It maybe the timeline, or where this came into effect in our relationship but I was expecting to go to the highs and lows of my longing for him but that really didn't happen. I hated it, I did miss him, but that longing feeling really didn't materialize. I didn't get this amazing glow when I did see him again. I actually get that more when I see him daily.

 

In my case, I never bought into the LDR so I didn't bother with showing my best face. Actually the affair was like that to. I had my mistress meltdowns many a time. I give a lot but I expect a lot as well. I can say I have never filtered myself with him.

 

Wow . . . that was a revelation for me. Wow. Yep, I have been glaringly, in your face, 100% me with him, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[cocorico]

I can understand that. But both being LDR, and an affair relationship also prevent the day to day, hour by hour, minute by minute interaction that a marriage TYPICALLY entails (yes, I know there are exceptions).

 

Those same "turn offs" are a huge part of why people believe that "third date syndrome" exists.

 

They maintain a distance, a seperation (potentially both physical and emotional, esp in your situation where it's LDR as well) that can PROLONG that "fantasy period". You don't have to pick up his clothes everyday, spray the air freshener in the restroom everytime you go in there after he's been in there, etc... The "honeymoon" phase lasts longer because there's so much less opportunity for negative interactions to ruin it.

 

Instead, you can both continue to show the better parts of yourselves to each other, and minimize the negatives...thus keeping the limerance alive longer than happens in 'standard' relationships that are able to progress normally, without interference or limitations imposed by the fact that one person is married and maintaining this as a secret relationship.

 

I feel I'm qualified to comment on this as I've had the A, had the LDR, and had the M, all with the same person (in addition to other Rs of various kinds with other people) so I'm in a position to compare like with like instead of extrapolating from only partial experience.

 

I don't recognise anything described here. I think therefore it must be down to the individual people, rather than the type of R. If you're having to pick up someone else's clothes every day, or render the bathroom breathable after they've been in there, then you're in a R with a selfish, inconsiderate pig and it's your choice whether or not to put up with that. I have never experienced that in any kind of R and wouldn't tolerate it. It's not an inherent part of a M, nor any other kind of R, but I'd suspect that those who treat their partners with so little respect would do so irrespective of the kind of R it was.

 

Has my R changed, over time, from A / LDR / M? Sure. But it's gotten better, not worse. There's been no decline in respect shown, as I plied in the post quoted, no "letting the ugly" out. We saw the best and worst in each other early on. Over time, we've made memories, developed a repertoire of great times, built a wonderful circle of friends and turned our houses into loved homes. I'm still waiting for the so-called "honeymoon phase" to end, all these years later, and am frankly doubting that such a thing exists outside of hollywood. When you go I to a Rwith your eyes wide open, as you do in the kind of A most of us here are describing, there is no "honeymoon". Reality bites from Day 1.

 

And no, "reality" does not have to involve farting in bed, or washing skidmarks out of his laundry, unless you're picking your partners from Jerry Springer and consenting to be treated that way. To each their own, but you have a choice on that score!

[MollyBrown]

Just because someone hasn't experienced a certain type of relationship doesn't mean they have no understanding of it. When you see your friend in a relationship with a controlling jerk, whether you've been in that situation or not, you know it's not healthy. Maybe some people who haven't had an A understand it better than you think. Maybe that's why they've managed to avoid it. You can't just discount people's opinions because they haven't experienced what they are talking about. You can learn a lot from watching others.

[cocorico]

And as always, I can agree to disagree.

 

You can have two awesome individuals that want to have a relationship...but if they're interaction is limited, it will limit their ability to build that relationship. Living together is a HUGE adjustment for both folks...for precisely the reason stated...because it causes much more interaction (both positive and negative) due to proximity..

 

Again, I have to disagree with this,based on my own lived experience.

 

We got to know each other so well during the LDR that whe we started living together it was the easiest thing in the world. We knew what the other liked, disliked, how they responded to things, etc in a way that most couples don't before they move in together because they have not had years of filling every single day with intense discussion and soul sharing, covering every possible topic in great depth.

 

Because you have to. Because the person is not sitting next to you, you cannot make any assumptions about what they're seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, so you have to ask and share all the time and you build up wonderful ways of communicating very clearly about everything, all the time. And because the other person is not sitting next to you, it's a lot easier to share the depths of your soul (the same premise of the priest hidden in the confessional) and say things you've never shared before, and forge really strong bonds.

 

We have a great, strong, easy R. We are very comfortable around each other, and have been since the day we moved in together. Because of the bonds and depth forged as a result of the LDR, not in spite of it.

[cocorico]

Just because someone hasn't experienced a certain type of relationship doesn't mean they have no understanding of it. When you see your friend in a relationship with a controlling jerk, whether you've been in that situation or not, you know it's not healthy. Maybe some people who haven't had an A understand it better than you think. Maybe that's why they've managed to avoid it. You can't just discount people's opinions because they haven't experienced what they are talking about. You can learn a lot from watching others.

 

You can learn something, assuming you're watching closely with an open mind and wanting to learn, but your second-hand experience will never be the same as the lived experience of the person who went through it. I've lived with men, but do I know as well as they do what it feels like to be a man? Of course not! So in a contest over whose views on being a man held more weight, I'd have to cede to them. Anything else would be sheer arrogance!

[Summer Breeze]

Just because someone hasn't experienced a certain type of relationship doesn't mean they have no understanding of it. When you see your friend in a relationship with a controlling jerk, whether you've been in that situation or not, you know it's not healthy. Maybe some people who haven't had an A understand it better than you think. Maybe that's why they've managed to avoid it. You can't just discount people's opinions because they haven't experienced what they are talking about. You can learn a lot from watching others.

 

And the reverse is true too. No one who has not been in an A can say with any certainty whatsoever what it is like. If I were going for my drivers license I'd rather talk to someone who has been through it and can tell me about the nerves and things that might steady them, rather than someone who sat and watched one happen and did not participate.

 

Everyone has a perspective on situations but it doesn't mean they are right. It doesn't mean they are wrong. Most of the posts from OW past and present are saying 'this is MY experience'. They are not saying that what they are writing is about every single A going. Not one of them is comparing things as more positive than a M or any other R.

[Owl]

And this is the beauty of LS.

 

We don't have to agree. You can disagree with my viewpoint, and I can disagree with yours, and we're both 'right' as long as we all do it respectfully.

 

This was a "discussion" thread...and it generated some interesting discussion.

[Got it]

And this is the beauty of LS.

 

We don't have to agree. You can disagree with my viewpoint, and I can disagree with yours, and we're both 'right' as long as we all do it respectfully.

 

This was a "discussion" thread...and it generated some interesting discussion.

 

Owl, taking from some of us who have lived the premise of this and are disagreeing with you from first hand experience, does that change your stance at all? And if not, why not?

[Owl]

The Owl doth protest too much. His posts have me thinking more and more that it's a belief and coping mechanism for some BS.

 

Interesting. Simply because I've felt the exact same way about your posts, and those of a few others on this very thread.

 

And this is my point...that the refusal to see that there is some merit in the "third date syndrome" is the same kind of "belief and coping mechanism" for those that have been involved in an affair.

 

Precisely my point, in fact.

 

Perhaps...we're both right?

[Owl]

Owl, taking from some of us who have lived the premise of this and are disagreeing with you from first hand experience, does that change your stance at all? And if not, why not?

 

It doesn't.

 

As I just mentioned...I believe that those that have been in affairs have to have a mental mechanism for coping with what they've done...they either face reality or they mentally justify their actions in their own minds.

 

Just as many OW/OM believe that BS's have to have some kind of mental coping mechanism to manage through the betrayal they've been through.

 

Actually...the vehement denial of this statement reinforces my viewpoint.

 

And FWIW...I don't expect that my comments have changed anyone else's viewpoint either.

[cocorico]

 

Perhaps...we're both right?

 

Nope.

 

 

You can learn something, assuming you're watching closely with an open mind and wanting to learn, but your second-hand experience will never be the same as the lived experience of the person who went through it. I've lived with men, but do I know as well as they do what it feels like to be a man? Of course not! So in a contest over whose views on being a man held more weight, I'd have to cede to them.Anything else would be sheer arrogance!

 

Sure, a gynaecologist may understand childbirth better than a new mother, through having studied it formally and scientifically over many years, but a mother understands childbirth far better than any random dude who just happens to have been in the delivery room when she gave birth!!

[Owl]

Nope.

 

 

 

 

Sure, a gynaecologist may understand childbirth better than a new mother, through having studied it formally and scientifically over many years, but a mother understands childbirth far better than any random dude who just happens to have been in the delivery room when she gave birth!!

 

To run with this analogy...given that the mother is often in tremendous pain and focused on the birth of her child...do you believe that she can accurately recount the exact steps that the medical team took to verify her child's health immediately after birth? Count the stitches they may have had to put in? Describe the doctor's and nurse's actions and reactions to the birth, to the health of the child and/or the mother?

 

Or was she focused on her own part of things...on her own pain, the health of her baby, and her own PART of the birth and delivery process?

 

Whereas having been the father in the delivery room when my children were born...I had a totally different view and experience than my wife did, and was able to answer her questions later about the events that unfolded that she didn't/couldn't focus on.

[Summer Breeze]

Interesting. Simply because I've felt the exact same way about your posts, and those of a few others on this very thread.

 

And this is my point...that the refusal to see that there is some merit in the "third date syndrome" is the same kind of "belief and coping mechanism" for those that have been involved in an affair.

 

Precisely my point, in fact.

 

Perhaps...we're both right?

 

I'd have to read back every single post I've made in here but I don't believe I've refused to see that there is some merit in the third date syndrome. I'm sure there are some people involved in As that say it has happened. Spark said her fWS was and Trinity mentioned someone who wrote here some time ago and used a similar description. I asked OW/OM to share their experiences and discuss if that had been their experience. I did not dismiss it. I do consider it a coping mechanism by some BS but I do agree that there are probably some APs who have experienced it.

 

I have no more right to tell you what your reconcilliation looked like from the inside any more than you have to tell me what my R with MM looked like.

 

In your mind you're right and in mine, I'm right. I think the difference is you're using it as a way to invalidate all Rs between APs and I'm just asking people what their experiences were as compared to a sweeping statement I see here relatively often.

[Got it]

It doesn't.

 

As I just mentioned...I believe that those that have been in affairs have to have a mental mechanism for coping with what they've done...they either face reality or they mentally justify their actions in their own minds.

 

Just as many OW/OM believe that BS's have to have some kind of mental coping mechanism to manage through the betrayal they've been through.

 

Actually...the vehement denial of this statement reinforces my viewpoint.

 

And FWIW...I don't expect that my comments have changed anyone else's viewpoint either.

 

Okay . . . so I have to be in a state of denial to stay in this relationship?

 

I don't agree with your comment about BS, at least I haven't looked at it like that. Maybe some need to do that but I know that others work through it with their spouse and their spouse shows them over time how they have changed their ways, etc.

 

I am sorry you can't be more opened minded about it but you are right we can agree to disagree. I am not in a state of denial (unless I don't even know if I am in denial!!? Ack who am I!?! ). I most definitely had "one foot out the door" doing the affair and was usually looking for a reason to hit the road than stay in due to the nature of it being an affair as well as my personal nature. And I haven't seen things to change that much for me. I take stock every day if this relationship is healthy, thriving, and fulfilling to both parties. I feel I know him pretty well but then I have always been of the mindset that "how well do we actually know others?". I do know that I am different with him than previous relationships that I am fully me and do not hide or adapt myself for him which I knew I did with others.

 

People do change, we see it in those that reconcile and so do those that start in affairs. Humans are amazingly complex and fluid creatures with the ability to adapt and change when needed and desired.

[Summer Breeze]

It doesn't.

 

As I just mentioned...I believe that those that have been in affairs have to have a mental mechanism for coping with what they've done...they either face reality or they mentally justify their actions in their own minds.

 

Just as many OW/OM believe that BS's have to have some kind of mental coping mechanism to manage through the betrayal they've been through.

 

Actually...the vehement denial of this statement reinforces my viewpoint.

 

And FWIW...I don't expect that my comments have changed anyone else's viewpoint either.

 

And your vehement comments negating every person who has stated their personal experiences reinforces why I believe your second paragraph, probably even stronger now than before I started this thread.

[Owl]

In your mind you're right and in mine, I'm right. I think the difference is you're using it as a way to invalidate all Rs between APs and I'm just asking people what their experiences were as compared to a sweeping statement I see here relatively often.

 

And you've made several comments indicating that you believe that the "third date syndrome" is a coping mechanism used by BS's...that invalidates what they believe.

[Owl]

And your vehement comments negating every person who has stated their personal experiences reinforces why I believe your second paragraph, probably even stronger now than before I started this thread.

 

My comments aren't vehement. They're calm, rational, and thought out. I think there's some projection happening here.

 

I'm simply disagreeing with the viewpoint here. I'm not calling anyone out, and I'm not angry or upset by the opposing views. I just don't agree with them, and post my responses as to why.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Owl

[Owl]

OK...clearly my viewpoint is no longer welcome on this thread. I'll back off before this goes on a further T/J.

[Summer Breeze]

To run with this analogy...given that the mother is often in tremendous pain and focused on the birth of her child...do you believe that she can accurately recount the exact steps that the medical team took to verify her child's health immediately after birth? Count the stitches they may have had to put in? Describe the doctor's and nurse's actions and reactions to the birth, to the health of the child and/or the mother?

 

Or was she focused on her own part of things...on her own pain, the health of her baby, and her own PART of the birth and delivery process?

 

Whereas having been the father in the delivery room when my children were born...I had a totally different view and experience than my wife did, and was able to answer her questions later about the events that unfolded that she didn't/couldn't focus on.

 

 

And I'm sure she could fill you in on some of the overwhelming pain and joy you will never experience because you are not her. You were tending to your gorgeous newborn child and worrying about her. You have a perspective. She has a perspective. We're all humans and if you put 50 of us into a room we'll all have a different perspective. Because you cut the cord and wrapped the baby in a blanket doesn't mean you gave birth or could ever, ever, ever know that feeling. Because you witnessed your version does not mean you can tell her what she experienced.

[Summer Breeze]

OK...clearly my viewpoint is no longer welcome on this thread. I'll back off before this goes on a further T/J.

 

Do you know what Owl, your viewpoint is welcome but you aren't even allowing yourself the scope to see that maybe we have a point. Life in an A is not easy at times and no matter how much you, or anyone else, wants it to be it isn't. It normally rapidly exceeds 3DS no matter if you want to believe it or not.

 

That is all I wanted to be discussed here. Just know your viewpoint is welcome but maybe some more discussion rather than dictating would be more welcome. I don't like using the word dictating, that isn't the right word but I can't think of an appropriate one. I do apologize about that.

[Owl]

Do you know what Owl, your viewpoint is welcome but you aren't even allowing yourself the scope to see that maybe we have a point. Life in an A is not easy at times and no matter how much you, or anyone else, wants it to be it isn't. It normally rapidly exceeds 3DS no matter if you want to believe it or not.

 

That is all I wanted to be discussed here. Just know your viewpoint is welcome but maybe some more discussion rather than dictating would be more welcome. I don't like using the word dictating, that isn't the right word but I can't think of an appropriate one. I do apologize about that.

 

Again...I'm NOT DICTATING. I'm just not agreeing with what others are posting. And I've seen nothing to change my viewpoint, just as you've seen nothing to change yours.

 

Please...stop taking all of this as some kind of attempt to take over the world here.

 

I'm just not agreeing, and responding back to comments/questions with others who don't agree with my viewpoint...and nothing more.

[Summer Breeze]

Again...I'm NOT DICTATING. I'm just not agreeing with what others are posting. And I've seen nothing to change my viewpoint, just as you've seen nothing to change yours.

 

Please...stop taking all of this as some kind of attempt to take over the world here.

 

I'm just not agreeing, and responding back to comments/questions with others who don't agree with my viewpoint...and nothing more.

 

And you'll see my apology about that word as I knew it wasn't just right.

 

Don't worry I don't think you're trying to take over the world.