Ross MwcFan Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 No problem Ross! I know these things get heated. Those are good questions. 1) For the continuous kids, I do not think that is quite the same. Often we are limited in resources and parents have to make a decision how many kids to have. Also at the point before conception, no human rights are being denied. The egg and sperm are not considered life in and of themselves. It is at the point of conception that the dilemma lies, IMHO. 2) That's a good point. I based the definition of God from the bible. Since we were discussing the God of the bible and his ability to render life or death, we also have to work within the parameters of that God. "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. " "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." You do raise a good point. At some points in the bible, Christ (who is God) said He does not have all knowledge, i.e. does not know when God the Father will end the dispensation of grace. That is kind of an off-topic though. We would have to get into the nature of Christ. 3) The devil is a creation of God and is limited. He also does not operate in accordance with the Nature of God (where we Christians would say morality is grounded). Christ said He was a murderer and the father of lies. He does have immense power; however, he also operates in the spiritual realm. The bible gives us little information on how this realm operates. We know that through prayer that invokes Christ and "wearing spiritual armor" we can have power in the spiritual realm. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. " Sorry these are fast. In a bit of a hurry. Hope this gives some explanation. Take care. What makes you think god created the devil though? The bible may say it, but that doesn't have to mean that it's true. Maybe the devil created god. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Okay, I'm making it sound as though I believe in the devil and the biblical god, I don't for the record. But if there was, for all you know, god is the bad one, and has told lies through the bible, conning everyone into thinking he is good, even though he does bad things. He could be laughing at you all, because he has convinced you all that he's good even though he's blatantly doing plenty of evil things. The devil could be the one who is good, and he may have a heart of gold and not have any bad intentions, he may not have caused any harm to anyone or anything, and he may be the one to actually cause good things to happen in the world. But god has lied about him and made him out to be bad. How do you know this isn't true? Edited August 10, 2012 by Ross MwcFan Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Okay, I'm making it sound as though I believe in the devil and the biblical god, I don't for the record. But if there was, for all you know, god is the bad one, and has told lies through the bible, conning everyone into thinking he is good, even though he does bad things. The devil could be the one who is good, and he may have a heart of gold and not have any bad intentions, he may not have caused any harm to anyone or anything. But god has lied about him and made him out to be bad. How do you know this isn't true? Yes I see what you are saying. But I am saying that if we are going to discuss the stories in the bible, we can't do that without accepting the premises about God and satan. If we are not going to do that we can't discuss anything relevant about the stories of the bible. We would have to go back to discussing is the evidence for the Christian God more compelling than alternative explanations. Different discussion, but there are lots of philosophical arguments for that conclusion. If you are just discussing if satan and God's roles were reversed, then what you are defining as satan would be God and God would be satan. The attributes you describe to satan are the exact attributes ascribed to God. It's a moot point. You're just chosing to call God, Satan & Satan, God, but the attributes are the same as their original definitions. It's like if we decided to call Ford, Toyota and Toyata, Ford. It wouldn't change the car attributes. We just switched the names. PS: There is a satanic bible. I guess you can refer to that if you want the opposite of the Christian bible Edited August 10, 2012 by TheFinalWord Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 If you are just discussing if satan and God's roles were reversed, then what you are defining as satan would be God and God would be satan. The attributes you describe to satan are the exact attributes ascribed to God. They're not, I was talking about sat It's a moot point. You're just chosing to call God, Satan & Satan, God, but the attributes are the same as their original definitions. It's like if we decided to call Ford, Toyota and Toyata, Ford. It wouldn't change the car attributes. We just switched the names. PS: There is a satanic bible. I guess you can refer to that if you want the opposite of the Christian bible If I was simply talking about god and satans roles being reversed, then I'd be talking about satan (as god) still being evil and doing bad things, as that is what I view the god of the bible to be. If god said in the bible that you should torture and kill your children (assuming you have children), would you do it? Would you think it would be 'good', 'just' and 'right', just because god says so? Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 If I was simply talking about god and satans roles being reversed, then I'd be talking about satan (as god) still being evil and doing bad things, as that is what I view the god of the bible to be. If god said in the bible that you should torture and kill your children (assuming you have children), would you do it? Would you think it would be 'good', 'just' and 'right', just because god says so? Okay, I see now. I must have misunderstood. There are lots of hypothetical situations you can throw at me. I would have to see exactly where such a statement was at to answer. I would also have to have the exact context (if you're going to give me a verse from the Old Testament I would like you to provide the historical context; I'll let you do the homework ). Also, I would like to know your intention in asking if you provide such a scenario. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Okay, I see now. I must have misunderstood. There are lots of hypothetical situations you can throw at me. I would have to see exactly where such a statement was at to answer. I would also have to have the exact context (if you're going to give me a verse from the Old Testament I would like you to provide the historical context; I'll let you do the homework ). Also, I would like to know your intention in asking if you provide such a scenario. Thanks. I was just genuinley curious, I hope it didn't come across as an attack or anything. I don't know much about any bibles. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 That doesnt mean its about god at all. People were looking to explain things and in my opinion they made alot of stuff up. That is one of them. I miss loved ones when they die, but I accept the fact that I will never see them again. I dont believe in heaven, obviously you guys do and thats what eases your mind about why bad things happen. I also think this can make religious people not appreciate life as much and live it to the full, as they don't believe this is the only one they'll get. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I was just genuinley curious, I hope it didn't come across as an attack or anything. I don't know much about any bibles. No problem. The bible doesn't tell me to torture or murder anyone, let alone children. Christ said love your enemies so I would have a hard time even answering such a question. I honestly can't imagine that hypothetical b/c I can not imagine God requesting such a thing. Actually God was abhorred by His own people (Israel) at one time b/c they were adopting pagan practices and sacrificing their children to false gods. They did not destroy the peoples as the Lord had commanded them, 35 but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. 36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to false gods. 38 They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. 39 They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves. 40 Therefore the Lord was angry with his people and abhorred his inheritance. 41 He gave them into the hands of the nations, and their foes ruled over them. 42 Their enemies oppressed them and subjected them to their power. 43 Many times he delivered them, but they were bent on rebellion and they wasted away in their sin. 44 Yet he took note of their distress when he heard their cry; 45 for their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I also think this can make religious people not appreciate life as much and live it to the full, as they don't believe this is the only one they'll get. Well, I can see why you think that. For me personally, before I was a Christian I was lost in drugs and miserable. For me it's not a religion, it's a relationship with God and it's made my life 1000x better. Also, a lot of the things I used to think were so great no longer appeal to me with Christ in my heart. When we give our life to Christ, He comes into our heart and changes our nature. But you are right in that if Christ is not raised from death, we have a false hope as Paul said. "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep." No problem about not knowing much about the bible You can watch the Gospel of John here. It provides verse by verse the account of the life of Christ. Maybe it will help you understand it better The Gospel of John(2003)-CD1 - YouTube 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Does the devil have the power to answer prayers? Ooooooooooh, now that is the best question I've heard asked yet since I've been on this forum. Deuteronomy 32:17 says that pagans offer sacrifices to demons. However, I am not aware of any verse which suggests the devil can answer prayers. If someone knows one, please let me know because I'm very curious. This has huge theological implications. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well I've been praying for this thread.... Just a gift for TheFinalWord - 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Forever Silent Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Has anyone ever had their prayers answered? Have you witnessed any miracles with or without prayer that you believe was the work of god? My life hasnt been well at all the past few months. Ive become much more depressed and miserable. I completly lost myself and I feel i need god the most at this time. I will not read most these posts because I know that they consist mostly of bantering back in fourth probably and the power or futitly of prayer. I will respond to the op though. Take control of your life. Before you pray at night, ask yourself what you have done to make your life better. Are you placing all of your burden on a god? If so, stop and immediately take responsibilty and accountabilty for your mistakes and sucesses. I do not know what your specific promblem are but I will say this. Life is not all about happiness and glee and everything else asscoiated with pleasure. Sometimes life will be an ass and give you the otherside of the coin. As someone said one must know suffering to truly know happiness. Bad times happen to everyone, but it is during those times that the true character of a person shines brightly. Do not give up, take control, and make life your b****. That is all i will say and I wish you well. P.S If you have posted your problems in a later post, please post them here, I would like to help you. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 The laws and constants of physics in natureQUOTE] Ah, there's the rub. We are not talking about known laws of physics when discussing religion, faith or a Supreme Being. God exists outside of what mankind "knows" (aka: can prove mathematically/scientifically) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
venusianx13 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 as a 35-year (more or less) practising Christian, I turned to Buddhism about 20 years ago. I would say, for my part, it's been a 100% improvement. That's my answer. When I turned to Buddhism, I found out that I could be the author of my own fate. I stepped back and began to examine my mind and began to understand karma, or cause and effect. Even when things go completely "wrong" in my life, Dharma gives me strength (and love.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 When I turned to Buddhism, I found out that I could be the author of my own fate. I stepped back and began to examine my mind and began to understand karma, or cause and effect. Even when things go completely "wrong" in my life, Dharma gives me strength (and love.) That's beautiful! Link to post Share on other sites
soccerrprp Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 When I turned to Buddhism, I found out that I could be the author of my own fate. I stepped back and began to examine my mind and began to understand karma, or cause and effect. Even when things go completely "wrong" in my life, Dharma gives me strength (and love.) Now that is something from Buddhism that I can relate to! Not one, but do this as well. Waiting for a deity to answer prayers is an everlasting reminder of just how important it is to live in the real world and take control of your life so that results are a bit more predictable and consistent.. Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Does the devil have the power to answer prayers? I too thought that was an interesting question. One of the most interesting religious questions I've ever heard. As the story goes, Satan was given dominion over earth. But from what I see there is no bibilical inference that Satan can read our minds. So objectively speaking, we would expect that Satan can answer prayers spoken aloud, but not silent prayers. Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 if you want to knw what hells like!!! Goto this link Its about a wome that went to hell: Mary K Baxter A Divine Revelation of Hell Heaven Its Mary k Baxter's book & Audio free Online!!! Demons will torture you with brimstone, Hell has a fun center, and Satan has a black throne? Mary K Baxter - YouTube Just out of curiosity, why in the world would you believe this woman? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) In answer to the OP... I've had MANY prayers answered, although the most recent experience was not only answer to prayer, but a miracle. My daughter called me to tell me that her dad, my exhusband, was having a major stroke. Her presence at the ER was was divinely orchastrated also (long story). He had had 2 previous heart attacks within the past 3 years with several stents installed. He was getting worse and worse at the ER due to lack of oxygen to the brain. My daughter prayed over him and I anointed him with oil and prayed also...we had tons of prayer going up from prayer chains and friends/family. He was finally transported to a major hospital several hours later...on our way down to the hospital the next moning we got a call from his son (from a previous marriage) stating that the doctors were amazed as they had run some tests (not sure what kind..thinking CAT scans and such) and the blockage in his brain that caused the stroke was gone and they couldn't find it anywhere in his body. They said he could go home that afternoon. A week later he was priddy much normal, with minor speech issues and still a little tired. We are currently helping him with his retirement instead of his funeral:cool: Thank you Jesus Edited September 5, 2012 by pureinheart 3 Link to post Share on other sites
madjac74 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 High five to Jesus but no love to the excellent medical care that he received Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 High five to Jesus but no love to the excellent medical care that he received Awwww, my apologies to the wonderful doctors, nurses, etc. everywhere... and personally want to say that I've ALWAYS had top notch medical providers:D Here is the other miracle, his company had just dropped the medical for their employees, so he had no insurance. The ER/hospital had no trauma care so they called around looking for a hospital to take him. We assumed it would be county...BUT, a major, world known hospital took him! We tried to thank all of the medical staff, but they would not take any credit...they said they didn't do much of anything, as it was a miracle (their words). They were awesome and so caring. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 If God neglected to create us with free will, everyone would believe and love Him, obediently right? Let me put (what I view) God's plan to be like: a road map, but it is up to me to take that journey. It's all laid out for me, I just have to listen, and follow cues. I can choose to not follow the map, thus turning my back on Him, and I will probably take a whole load of detours before I get to where He wants me to be, but the journey is laid out. His plan is there. It's there for each of us, if we're open enough to take it. It's not been put quite as concisely as I would have liked but that is my view. There's a lot of confusion over God's plan and the issue of free will-people think one negates the other. It doesn't. Just because it is planned, does not mean we follow it. He hopes we do, and I hope, every step of the way, I do, too. You explained this better than I could have gf! VERY well put...and just to add concerning detours, well, I happen to be the queen of detours and letting God know how much He needs my help:rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Ooooooooooh, now that is the best question I've heard asked yet since I've been on this forum. Deuteronomy 32:17 says that pagans offer sacrifices to demons. However, I am not aware of any verse which suggests the devil can answer prayers. If someone knows one, please let me know because I'm very curious. This has huge theological implications. I've never seen any scripture concerning the enemy having the power to answer prayers, although God has allowed the enemy to "counterfeit" certain things to make them "appear" as if they are of God. Hoping that made sense, I'm tired and M30 you have that amazing ability to come up with such mind provoking subjects that usually fry my brain...lol:D Link to post Share on other sites
madjac74 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Awwww, my apologies to the wonderful doctors, nurses, etc. everywhere... and personally want to say that I've ALWAYS had top notch medical providers:D Here is the other miracle, his company had just dropped the medical for their employees, so he had no insurance. The ER/hospital had no trauma care so they called around looking for a hospital to take him. We assumed it would be county...BUT, a major, world known hospital took him! We tried to thank all of the medical staff, but they would not take any credit...they said they didn't do much of anything, as it was a miracle (their words). They were awesome and so caring. I would like to apologize because I did not mean to belittle your miracle and the amazing recovery of your family's loved one. Whether it was a miracle, luck, coincidence or whatever I am sure you and your daughter are happy with the result. I just sort of get irritated when people attribute miracles to someone who may or may not be real when there are doctors, teachers, etc... who make real miracles everyday and who receive little praise. Obviously you did not do that and again please accept my apologies. Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Does the devil have the power to answer prayers? Here's a bible study I found to be interesting. When The Devil Answers Your Prayer - Adwolfe Freewill Baptist Church And M30USA, it comes with scriptures! Link to post Share on other sites
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