Starting over again, need MM to make a decision once and for all

[MissBee]

What kind of man would he be if he DOESN'T leave her for me?

 

The same kind of man he is now, who up to this date, has not left her for you. It's old news around here that many MM have no intention of procuring a new wife, but want a wife and an A. So that would be the kind of guy he is...a man in an A, content to leave it that way.

 

 

We broke vows to be together. This wasn't a drunken fling or a heat of the moment thing. We CHOSE to be together. He made love to me and that's a COMMITMENT to a relationship. This has to work out or he has to decide it was all a mistake and he loves her and wants to be with her.

 

Making love/having sex is not a commitment. FAR FAR from it . Most women, especially older ones, should know this. Sex is just sex. Sex can be within a commitment but DOES NOT automatically signify a commitment, especially not for men. Most women have it wrong when they use sex as a means to gain commitment from a man, instead of waiting for the commitment before the sex. It doesn't HAVE to work. Many people risk their way of life, marriage, relationship with their kids, job for an affair and many live to indeed find it a mistake. It is not uncommon at all. It seems though that you're grasping at ANY and everything as a sign that things will work out and "can't fail"....when they seem to have been on a downward slope for a long long time.

 

 

I know he cares about his wife, but if he was in love with her, he couldn't be in love with me. If he was in love with her and committed to her but having sex with me with no intention of leaving her for me, then that makes him a horrible person.

 

He may be a horrible person or simply one who wants it both ways. My former AP was this way. He never had any intention of leaving and still loved his gf...he just wanted me too. At the end of the day though, they had history and a child and I was secondary. When push came to shove, he didn't choose me and it doesn't seem like your MM has any intention of choosing you either, love or no love.

 

I don't believe she's in love with him. The many times she talked to me, never once did she say she loves him or she can't live without him or he's her life or please don't take away my happiness. She said things like "take him if you want him but that house and those kids and all of the money he has is mine and if he leaves, I'll make him pay for it for the rest of his life." And, "his problem is that he's just too highly sexed, that's why he's with you, he just needs more than a person should expect".

 

Why would she say that? She doesn't think like you. I would neevr say that, especially not to my husband's OW!! That's crazy . His wife probably does not think her husband "is her happiness", the same way that you believe her husband should be yours. She is obviously a more confident woman who realizes she can't make him stay with her, and she's not gonna cry and beg him or you. Why should she? His wife knows the deal. Even with all that he still hasn't left her...while you're still waiting. His wife probably has her own issues, but take note that she is exhibiting a lot more confidence and self-reliance than you are. She can take or leave this man if he doesn't act right unlike you who want to be wholly engulfed with him, come hell or high water!

 

It's sad to find the love of your life after you've made a commitment to someone else, but it happens sometimes. Sex without love and commitment is wrong. The minute he made love to me, his relationship with his wife and mine with my husband was over and ours began and the rest of this is just wading through all of the crap that has to be sorted out.

 

You are going against your morals then, since you don't have a commitment with him, and the love may be one-sided. You may call it wading through crap...but for all intents and purposes and the fact that you're hear and your thread is about you needing him to make a decision, makes it apparent that the relationship with his wife is NOT over and you are unsure about your commitment, as their really isn't one. I'm sorry Jolene. But this is the reality. Did you ever find out for him how he feels about sex without commitment and love? You may be surprised to find that he doesn't share your sentiments and that he can indeed have sex without commitment or love.

 

I just need to figure out how to get him to take action one way or another and to control myself and have faith and patience while I wait. If I had a friend I could talk to about this, I could call her when I had the urge to call him and I could vent about when I was scared or angry, but I can't tell my friends about it this time and it's really hard to deal with having a relationship that you can't talk to anyone about.

 

You cannot get him to do anything. You should want to be with someone who CHOOSES you fully and who you can also choose fully. Why would you want a man you need to manipulate and prod to choose you? That's already a sign that he is reluctant. Love should not be about convincing and selling yourself in hopes that someone buys it and takes you home quickly and the warranty expires so they can't take you back and then are stuick with you now for life lol. Why can't you talk to your friends? As a friend I wouldn't agree with the situation, but a real friend should at least be there to listen and offer even tough advice.

 

Response bolded.

[2sunny]

While that's great advice, she won't do it, she can't. She feels she has 17 years invested in this man. If you read all her posts she is scared to death to make any big demands of him, she thinks she will push him away. She pretends to be who she thinks he wants her to be, her whole identity is wrapped up in him/this. She has their future planned out, helping him with his work, etc. As others have mentioned.........co-dependent??

 

I really don't think she can handle the rejection right now. I think it would push her on over the edge.

 

Most of us have been encouraging her to get some professional help.

 

I agree - she's got a VERY unhealthy dynamic going and needs serious help. I also don't think her perspective is processing this situation with her MM clearly.

 

There's not ONE thing that she's typed that makes me think that he is making plans to be with her long term/married.

 

Does he want her for side sex - heck yes! Has he been taking action to be sure SHE is HIS PRIORITY for HIS future? Hell no! THAT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR - he's not into HER like she's into him!

[alexandria35]

While that's great advice, she won't do it, she can't. She feels she has 17 years invested in this man. If you read all her posts she is scared to death to make any big demands of him, she thinks she will push him away. She pretends to be who she thinks he wants her to be, her whole identity is wrapped up in him/this. She has their future planned out, helping him with his work, etc. As others have mentioned.........co-dependent??

 

I really don't think she can handle the rejection right now. I think it would push her on over the edge.

 

Most of us have been encouraging her to get some professional help.

 

I agree that there is much work for this poster to do to get healthy and that there is probably nothing that we can say here or that she is going to read in any book that is going to change how she thinks. Yes millions of women lose themselves in their romantic relationship but most women don't come close to how over the top this poster is. My honest opinion is that she is personality disordered in some way and that she will most likely never be self aware enough to change.

 

I don't really think she is going to snap and lose it when she realizes her MM is not coming for her. Some of her desperation is coming from recently being seperated and being alone for the first time in quite a while. She wants to escape her pain and she thinks the MM is her way to peace and well being. However I think she is mostly self focused and self centered. I think that when reality starts to dawn she will have no problem latching onto a new guy to get her validation. She knows all about self preservation, she's done it her whole life. It's how she survives. I also don't think she is going to live a life of despair and heartache due to her emotional problems. She is high functioning and she will probably carry on mostly as a normal person with periodic episodes of despair and desperation. I believe she is in such an episode now because of her recent change in marital status. Once she calms down she will find another man to use to meet her needs and validate her existance.

[2sunny]

I agree that there is much work for this poster to do to get healthy and that there is probably nothing that we can say here or that she is going to read in any book that is going to change how she thinks. Yes millions of women lose themselves in their romantic relationship but most women don't come close to how over the top this poster is. My honest opinion is that she is personality disordered in some way and that she will most likely never be self aware enough to change.

 

I don't really think she is going to snap and lose it when she realizes her MM is not coming for her. Some of her desperation is coming from recently being seperated and being alone for the first time in quite a while. She wants to escape her pain and she thinks the MM is her way to peace and well being. However I think she is mostly self focused and self centered. I think that when reality starts to dawn she will have no problem latching onto a new guy to get her validation. She knows all about self preservation, she's done it her whole life. It's how she survives. I also don't think she is going to live a life of despair and heartache due to her emotional problems. She is high functioning and she will probably carry on mostly as a normal person with periodic episodes of despair and desperation. I believe she is in such an episode now because of her recent change in marital status. Once she calms down she will find another man to use to meet her needs and validate her existance.

 

I doubt it will settle down without serious counseling that changes everything for her. The drama has always followed her so it IS all on her! It's part of who she is - its what she uses to attract these unhealthy men - by HER CHOICES!

 

She's not EVER likely to change her pattern - her operating method unless she seriously considers intensive therapy!

 

Her sense of normal is chaos and drama - without that she is just a fish out of water. The drama IS her comfort zone - THAT is part of what's unhealthy... Along with her unrelenting lack of self esteem and self worth.

 

 

It also says a lot about her MM - no healthy man would pay attention to a woman this unhealthy - unless he was just using her or was very u healthy himself.

Edited August 7, 2012 by 2sunny

[alexandria35]

I doubt it will settle down without serious counseling that changes everything for her. The drama has always followed her so it IS all on her! It's part of who she is - its what she uses to attract these unhealthy men - by HER CHOICES!

 

She's not EVER likely to change her pattern - her operating method unless she seriously considers intensive therapy!

 

Her sense of normal is chaos and drama - without that she is just a fish out of water. The drama IS her comfort zone - THAT is part of what's unhealthy... Along with her unrelenting lack of self esteem and self worth.

 

 

It also says a lot about her MM - no healthy man would pay attention to a woman this unhealthy - unless he was just using her or was very u healthy himself.

 

Oh I agree that she is not going to become emotionally healthy all on her own and I don't think she will ever seek any real treatment because she is not self aware enough to do so. I also agree that this is a pattern for her and that she has operated this way her whole life. My point is that she has survived this long and she will most likely continue to survive and continue along in her unhealthy patterns without going off the deep end and snapping. Occasionally a mentally ill person or personality disordered person will completely lose the plot but not usually. I think she will continue to cope and survive using the same tatics she always has. She might not be happy, she might not be totally in touch with reality or with herself, but she will continue on as she always has and for the most part be fine. Most personality disordered people never become cured but they live to a ripe old age anyways without much ado.

[Athena]

Most personality disordered people never become cured but they live to a ripe old age anyways without much ado.

Ahem! That's with TOO much ado! Too much drama, too much tragedy, too many crazy living conditions. WAAaaay too much ado. Makes me tired just to read it all, never mind her having to live it.

[Mount]

:bunny::bunny:Nod nod...:o:o

 

 

Ahem! That's with TOO much ado! Too much drama, too much tragedy, too many crazy living conditions. WAAaaay too much ado. Makes me tired just to read it all, never mind her having to live it.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I wonder if we'll ever hear from her again ...

[veryhappy]

Maybe they resumed contact and she'd feel too bad to admit it.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Maybe they resumed contact and she'd feel too bad to admit it.

 

I have another theory, but I'll keep my mouth shut. For once.

[jolene2012]

We never broke contact and I don't intend to, so why would I feel bad about admitting it?

 

He didn't call or show up for tentative plans that I had been really wanting to have happen Sunday and it really got to me. I knew it was probably a 50/50 chance that he'd be able to make it and I wasn't surprised that it didn't happen, but I was upset. He said he "might" and he'd "try" to come over, so I wasn't counting on it, but I was really upset that he didn't even find the time to call and apologize for not being able to make it.

 

Last night I was waiting for him after work and managed to have a calm rational discussion with him about why that was unacceptable and I'm starting a new chapter in my life and things are going to change. I don't have to put up with that kind of behaviour anymore and I'm not going to. Usually if I confront him about something he did that upset me, I cry or yell then he gets angry and pulls away, but I managed to hold it together this time. I don't know if it's the way I said it or if he's realizing I do have other options now, but he actually said I was right and he was being rude and he apologized.

 

He spent time with me today (his idea before I even asked) and I gave him a "wish list list for this stage in our relationship" of things that I would like him to do to make me feel loved and respected. I thought "wish list" sounded nicer than "list of demands" and I tried to use humor, but I think I got my point across. It included things like calling me every day and returning calls promptly, ideas for activities other than talking or sex, eating lunch or dinner together at least weekly, etc. I'm going to give it a little time and see how it goes.

 

I'm not going to try to shake things up for him at home by letting his W find out the A is still going on at this time, but if we fail to make progress, I will and I think I've figured out a way to do it that she wouldn't think the message was coming from me. I hope it doesn't come to that. If he decided that he doesn't love me or he'd made a mistake and didn't want to ever leave, I'd walk away and not mess with his home life, but if he keeps saying he wants to and is just procrastinating and it seems he needs to be pushed into the deep end so he can sink or swim, I'm prepared to do it.

 

I came across some websites for relationship coaching and I think that's actually more what I was looking for. I didn't come here to defend my sanity or my decision to be in this relationship. I'm under enough stress as it is, and I'm not finding that helpful. I came looking for ideas and support on how to get the outcome I'm looking for and I thought people who had been in a similar situation may have some advice on how to be successful at it. Several people have said that you can't control other people or force them to do things. Well, maybe not, but you can influence them and motivate behaviour with positive or negative reinforcement. Coaches and salespeople are really good at this. I'm not and I know that. The heading here is "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner". I know that I don't have good dating skills and I was looking for supportive feedback on my methods and tactics, not amateur psycoevaluation.

 

A psychiatrist once showed me a chart they use to rate people with a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being needing to be institutionalized and 10 being 100% normal and well adjusted. She said she's never met anyone (not just patients, anyone) who was a 10. People who are an 8 are doing really well and most people have issues that meet some of the critera for a labled condition but not enough to actually be classified. That means that most of us are a little bit different in our thinking in one way or another.

[2sure]

I don't think being an OW is a good thing for anyone . I don't agree with nearly all of your behavior.

 

But I like that last post. Youre right.

I can understand your approach and the way you plan on influencing him. It's not dishonest, it's not vengeful.

 

I still know its not healthy for you. He sounds awful really.

But I can respect what you've come here for.

[2sure]

But....really. What you want from him...even if he was single...he isn't offering.

I won't dispute what you want, but I can tell you that it just isn't something your going to get .

[jolene2012]

But....really. What you want from him...even if he was single...he isn't offering.

I won't dispute what you want, but I can tell you that it just isn't something your going to get .

Long-term, what I want from HIM is to be the woman he comes home to at night, to have a relationship out in the open, to be able to spend time together on a regular basis whether that's working or having fun and just to be able to share in his life. Those are the dealbreaker wants. Being around him makes me happy. Hearing his voice, watching his face light up when he sees me, feeling his arms around me, the incredible passion that we've felt for each other every day for the last 17 years. Those things outweigh his workaholic and ADD tendencies. The things I love about him far outweigh the things that irritate me about him.

 

Are there other things that I would like to have? Of course. I'd also like to win the lottery but I'm not going to feel unfulfilled in life if I don't. I understand that he doesn't want the level of total imersion involvement that I would prefer to have. I can live with that and still be happy with HIM.

 

But, if this doesn't work out and I have to start over with someone else, there are going to be quite a few more dealbreakers. If I had known what I know now before I fell in love with him, I probably wouldn't have let myself get involved with him. I would have missed out on the pain and I wouldn't have known that I was missing out on the passion. After loving him, I don't ever want to live without him, but I realize my life would have been easier if I'd never met him.

[Mount]

:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

has it ever crossed you mind to be alone, without a man for a few years?

[2sunny]

We never broke contact and I don't intend to, so why would I feel bad about admitting it?

 

He didn't call or show up for tentative plans that I had been really wanting to have happen Sunday and it really got to me. I knew it was probably a 50/50 chance that he'd be able to make it and I wasn't surprised that it didn't happen, but I was upset. He said he "might" and he'd "try" to come over, so I wasn't counting on it, but I was really upset that he didn't even find the time to call and apologize for not being able to make it.

 

Last night I was waiting for him after work and managed to have a calm rational discussion with him about why that was unacceptable and I'm starting a new chapter in my life and things are going to change. I don't have to put up with that kind of behaviour anymore and I'm not going to. Usually if I confront him about something he did that upset me, I cry or yell then he gets angry and pulls away, but I managed to hold it together this time. I don't know if it's the way I said it or if he's realizing I do have other options now, but he actually said I was right and he was being rude and he apologized.

 

He spent time with me today (his idea before I even asked) and I gave him a "wish list list for this stage in our relationship" of things that I would like him to do to make me feel loved and respected. I thought "wish list" sounded nicer than "list of demands" and I tried to use humor, but I think I got my point across. It included things like calling me every day and returning calls promptly, ideas for activities other than talking or sex, eating lunch or dinner together at least weekly, etc. I'm going to give it a little time and see how it goes.

 

I'm not going to try to shake things up for him at home by letting his W find out the A is still going on at this time, but if we fail to make progress, I will and I think I've figured out a way to do it that she wouldn't think the message was coming from me. I hope it doesn't come to that. If he decided that he doesn't love me or he'd made a mistake and didn't want to ever leave, I'd walk away and not mess with his home life, but if he keeps saying he wants to and is just procrastinating and it seems he needs to be pushed into the deep end so he can sink or swim, I'm prepared to do it.

 

I came across some websites for relationship coaching and I think that's actually more what I was looking for. I didn't come here to defend my sanity or my decision to be in this relationship. I'm under enough stress as it is, and I'm not finding that helpful. I came looking for ideas and support on how to get the outcome I'm looking for and I thought people who had been in a similar situation may have some advice on how to be successful at it. Several people have said that you can't control other people or force them to do things. Well, maybe not, but you can influence them and motivate behaviour with positive or negative reinforcement. Coaches and salespeople are really good at this. I'm not and I know that. The heading here is "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner". I know that I don't have good dating skills and I was looking for supportive feedback on my methods and tactics, not amateur psycoevaluation.

 

A psychiatrist once showed me a chart they use to rate people with a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being needing to be institutionalized and 10 being 100% normal and well adjusted. She said she's never met anyone (not just patients, anyone) who was a 10. People who are an 8 are doing really well and most people have issues that meet some of the critera for a labled condition but not enough to actually be classified. That means that most of us are a little bit different in our thinking in one way or another.

 

You are right - controlling him isn't the answer.

 

But he continues giving YOU evidence that he's willing to hurt you and doesn't make time for you and what's important to you. That's not a man who would move mountains for the one he loves. Seems he's saving that time and energy for his work and his wife.

 

You aren't looking at the reality - you aren't his priority.

 

That still leaves you on the outside based on his actions not his lying words.

 

A life coach - good idea as long as you go in with an open mind - they usually suggest that EVERYTHING CHANGES from YOUR end of YOUR ACTIONS - that way you get different results!

Edited August 9, 2012 by 2sunny

[veryhappy]

To get what you want, you need to follow through not allowing him to continue having you on the side. So if he's failing the plan, be firm and don't put up with it because nothing will change for you. It's not clear if you've let him know that it's an ultimatum. He needs to know, so you don't fall for his tears that he didn't know and if he had known...

 

Brace yourself, because a man who doesn't call you daily on his own is unlikely to put more into being with you. I am not mean saying that, it's just sad because from the outside his efforts look simply not enough. We're not the ones looking to be with him though, so good luck to you sticking to your plan.