Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 This isn't a family. this is a guy, living under the same roof as a woman he clearly has little connection with, with children they both had. A Family is defined as: and that's from an on-line dictionary. What you're doing, is precisely what my ex- H and I did. We were two adults with children in common, living under one roof. to all intents and purposes, to everyone else, we were almost akin to the Brady Bunch. And we lived the lie. And every single waking moment, we knew it was a lie. And it hurt. You know what? Kids are resilient. People don't give children, in situations like these, enough credit. It's important how you speak with them, relay information to them, and include them in discussions. It's important you acknowledge how mature they are and connect with them appropriately. but they're not dumb. We related well with our children, and my daughter's question to me, made me realise how stupid WE had been, as over-protective adults. "Mamma, I'm just wondering why the hell you didn't do this sooner...." You have to take responsibility for your own reluctance, and really examine where the impetus lies, because I promise you, as one who has been in a situation far too similar to yours for comfort - we had to do the same. sometimes, we become so accustomed to the status quo, we don't want to break it, because you know what? It's inconvenient. Don't for chrissakes, settle for 'convenience'. Really; huge regret. thanks for the kick up the ass.... food for thought! I'm in a bit of a mess right now. We are on holiday with my wife's two sisters who are even more screwed up than her and I've just had enough of all these hang-ups and funny behaviour... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Oh, you mean, those two sisters.... Family-oriented holidays are always a mistake. The only 'holidays' anyone should consider spending with relatives, is Christmas. Keep the stress in just one place - why spread it across the year...? I'm serious. what the heck are you doing? Next time her family suggests a get-together, be completely non-committal, and don't join in. Let them get on with it, and you go do your own stuff. This is a farce..... You're the outsider, and the square peg in the round hole. Tell me it doesn't feel like that.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Oh, you mean, those two sisters.... Family-oriented holidays are always a mistake. The only 'holidays' anyone should consider spending with relatives, is Christmas. Keep the stress in just one place - why spread it across the year...? I'm serious. what the heck are you doing? Next time her family suggests a get-together, be completely non-committal, and don't join in. Let them get on with it, and you go do your own stuff. This is a farce..... You're the outsider, and the square peg in the round hole. Tell me it doesn't feel like that.... I'm not the only one who is not happy. My eldest daughter isn't either and her cousin (yes, she is here as well) is hating it too! The thing is, it started as OUR holiday and then it snowballed into this huge pile-up because it was cheaper to rent a bigger house with lots more people (we are in Italy, BTW). Could I say no? I'm actually working myself, shut in one room, because I can't stand the mayhem. And this is going to repeats itself at Christmas (with added father in law and partner, who is the worst offender of all). I'm thinking of not going... I'll stay at home with my dog... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm not the only one who is not happy. My eldest daughter isn't either and her cousin (yes, she is here as well) is hating it too! well there's a clue there - isn't there? why not suggest to them the three of you go out by yourselves one day, and leave the mahem 'at home'? Just take off. go. Have a fun day. "You teach people how to treat you" and if you're being walked over, don't lie down and take it, huh? The thing is, it started as OUR holiday and then it snowballed into this huge pile-up because it was cheaper to rent a bigger house with lots more people (we are in Italy, BTW). Oh god, don't tell me.. La villa al Agriturismo....Capisco benissimo!! Could I say no? Er.... yes, you could.... I'm actually working myself, shut in one room, because I can't stand the mayhem. And this is going to repeats itself at Christmas (with added father in law and partner, who is the worst offender of all). I'm thinking of not going... I'll stay at home with my dog... I think that's the most sensible thing I've read so far. but here's a piece of advice: Don't tell her this is your plan. If she refuses to be a part of this marriage, and wants things entirely on her terms, only ACTION will show her where you stand. Talking does nothing, it's cheap, ineffective and becomes a lie. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Radu Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 If she refuses to be a part of this marriage, and wants things entirely on her terms, only ACTION will show her where you stand. Talking does nothing, it's cheap, ineffective and becomes a lie. This part is golden. You have 3 major ways of acting : - say good things about good actions, say bad things about bad actions/ideeas - say good things about good actions, keep quiet about bad actions/ideeas - say nothing about good actions, say bad things about bad actions/ideeas The former will lead to lots of arguing, the 2nd will lead to good report, the last is what messed up ppl do. Quite a fine line to thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 It's a villa with a fantastic view of the sea... shame my holiday has been ruined. I should have put my foot down. Too accommodating, as usual. My downfall... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 This part is golden. You have 3 major ways of acting : - say good things about good actions, say bad things about bad actions/ideeas - say good things about good actions, keep quiet about bad actions/ideeas - say nothing about good actions, say bad things about bad actions/ideeas The former will lead to lots of arguing, the 2nd will lead to good report, the last is what messed up ppl do. Quite a fine line to thread. Absolutely... but I have a small problem. Because she is in the stronger position, whatever I do, it won't matter. The only thing which would work, I'm not prepared to do at the moment. Dis-engaging from the relationship will buy me some power. That's what I'm going to do. I don't want to punish my wife, I want to have peace and quiet and find a place where I can finally put all the ghosts to rest and concentrate on myself, instead of trying to savage this unsalvageable marriage. I didn't know this until the other day. Now I know, and I can take action. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Radu Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised if you will have your kids backing on this one. Obviously i'm not saying you should go out and ask them 'do you think daddy should leave mommy' but you've gotten to know them by now and they surely have fealt something in the air for the last few yrs. In the end, that's all that matters ... that the kids won't end up bitter old maidens like a certain group of 3 sisters. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 In the end, that's all that matters ... that the kids won't end up bitter old maidens like a certain group of 3 sisters. Funny you say that... my brother in law left the older sister some years ago... he ended up having an affair with a French woman... I think now it's my turn (no affair or French women, though). I'm pretty sure my other brother in law is only staying because he makes such little money that he would end up in the street. Basically, he is a kept man. The middle sister is the bossiest person I've ever known in my life. She also told me once that their relation was pretty much over. But they have 3 young kids, so... and he is a total loser... trying to be a rock star at 52... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 It's a villa with a fantastic view of the sea... shame my holiday has been ruined. I should have put my foot down. Too accommodating, as usual. My downfall... Many a true word said in Jest. You need to own your complacency, and see how it has aversely affected the dynamic of this so-called 'marriage'. Salvage whatever time you have left there, and go do your own thing!! Absolutely... but I have a small problem. Because she is in the stronger position, whatever I do, it won't matter. she's only in the 'stronger position' because that's where you have put her - but only in your mind.... Have you not read on here, "It's the person who cares the least, who controls the most."...? Make what you do - matter. the only way it will matter to her is when she sees you're wresting your control back. Do what you want, when you want, the way you want to. come and go as you please. Create a life for yourself outside the parameters of this existence. go your own way. when she sees you developing complete and utter independence - she'll sit up and take notice. just like my ex- did. Boy, was that a wake-up call for him. Too late - the ship had sailed. The only thing which would work, I'm not prepared to do at the moment. Dis-engaging from the relationship will buy me some power. That's what I'm going to do. disengaging will precipitate what you can't do at the moment. But it will be a better thing to do, in the long run. in the meantime - walk the talk, and yes - disengage. I don't want to punish my wife, I want to have peace and quiet and find a place where I can finally put all the ghosts to rest and concentrate on myself, instead of trying to savage this unsalvageable marriage. Jeezuzf.u.c.k.inghell, what the hell do you think she's been doing to you all this time? She's put you through the most punishing experience ever!! She's had no second thoughts about doing it either - her complete selfishness, lack of effort or commitment has shown that. She has has Zero Respect for you - and you can't 'punish' her....? I get it, but don't think of your actions as a 'punishment' for her - they're more a reward to yourself - they're more a 'getting YOU' back! I didn't know this until the other day. Now I know, and I can take action. Action is only worth taking if you have the strength, fortitude and determination to make it permanent and consistent. she'll complain, throw recriminations and accuse you of abandonment. make sure that at least, whatever she accuses you of - is both honest and justified. she turned her back and walked out on this marriage years ago. About time you shut that door. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 she'll complain, throw recriminations and accuse you of abandonment. I agree with everything you say, apart from the above. She won't do anything. I think she tried to change, but fallen back on her old, safe ways... she was exposing herself too much. The fact is, she can't give. She is too messed-up. She is just protecting herself. She won't complain, or accuse me of anything. We've past that. If I decide to go, she will resign herself. She is prepared to jack it all to protect her own world. She has decided to live in hell for the rest of her life, but I can't support that. She says she loves me. But she can only love me to a certain extent. She can't love me if loving me means to let herself go and lower her defences. God I tried! She wouldn't even argue with me. She probably thinks it's all about sex. But it isn't. And I don't know if she'll ever understand that. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 No, you're right, it isn't about the sex. It wasn't about the sex with my ex- either, but it's such a huge part of an intimate, loving balanced relationship, that it's what it looks like - and as that has been an elephant in the room, a bone of contention between you - that's what it will be in her head. you know her best, with regard to accusations and recriminations - looking at her sisters is probably alerting her to the inevitable... But really, it's been her way all the way. It really is time you made your own way, now.... And you know what? Be upfront and explain it to the kids, so that they're in no doubt as to what is going on - one thing kids hate more than anything else, is dishonesty, and being treated like dumb patsys. Trust me on that one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 No, you're right, it isn't about the sex. It wasn't about the sex with my ex- either, but it's such a huge part of an intimate, loving balanced relationship, that it's what it looks like - and as that has been an elephant in the room, a bone of contention between you - that's what it will be in her head. you know her best, with regard to accusations and recriminations - looking at her sisters is probably alerting her to the inevitable... But really, it's been her way all the way. It really is time you made your own way, now.... And you know what? Be upfront and explain it to the kids, so that they're in no doubt as to what is going on - one thing kids hate more than anything else, is dishonesty, and being treated like dumb patsys. Trust me on that one. yes, she will think it's the sex. I explained it to her. It's the intimacy. But she's decided not to share herself with me anymore. As far as the kids are concerned, I will tell them everything. Well, my side of the story. Don't know what the wife will say to them. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 ... As far as the kids are concerned, I will tell them everything. Well, my side of the story. Don't know what the wife will say to them. It doesn't matter. Providing you're as honest as you can be with them, the truth will out. They'll get it for themselves. My daughter a short time ago, was talking about her father with me... I told her I had never spoken against her father or said anything detrimental, because it wouldn't have been right... her reply? "Mamma, you didn't have to tell me anything. I know, I can see it for myself, I understand.... But you need to do it, do it soon, and make sure you stick to your guns. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 I've decided to wait until we get back home to deal with the situation, in a couple of days time. I need to reflect and be in a familiar environment to be able to gather my thoughts and decide what I really want to do. I know my wife won't change her mind about anything, so it's up to me. I have a few options: 1) do nothing and carry on regardless 2) separate permanently and leave 3) separate permanently and stay put 4) separate temporarily and stay put 5) separate temporarily and move out for the duration 6) divorce and leave We'll see. I was getting so stressed out in my head that I had to make the decision to postpone any resolution, for the time being. Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm sorry your holiday has been so stressful. The atmosphere won't have helped, and there's no time now to take yourself off and be on your own... but seriously, which option do you think is going to really be your only choice? I would say - and if you stop top think about what has led up to this, I think you'll agree - all you have to really nail this in the coffin it's been lying in for years now, is options 2 followed by 6. Anything else is mere prevarication, and still dancing to her tune. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 I would say - and if you stop top think about what has led up to this, I think you'll agree - all you have to really nail this in the coffin it's been lying in for years now, is options 2 followed by 6. Anything else is mere prevarication, and still dancing to her tune. I might do 3 and then 6... if we separate and I stay, I would be living in my office and I still would be able to look after my children, which is very important to me. The things is, she works shifts, so if I go, they would be the ones to suffer most, because there would be nobody there to help them out. I know you might say that my wife should have thought about this, but the truth is they are the ones who will pay mostly, whilst for my wife not much will change... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 In that case, see if you can find somewhere local to rent, even if it's just a three-room apartment. Moving out will be a concrete action, whereas staying in your study won't really be changing the status quo much.... will it? Once ex- and I decided to call it quits, living under the same roof became unreal.... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 There has to be some finality to this, giotto... you can't declare a separation, then carry on precisely as you were. That's just more prevarication and indecision. she has an inbuilt house-minder and baby-sitter. you have to add a little awkwardness to her life to make her understand that this is a shift in dynamics. If you talk to the kids (I don't know their ages, but for the 11-year-old) you'd be amazed at how they rally round and step up to the mark. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 I know you are pushing for this, but it's not practical. I can't expect my 11 year old to survive on her own without me. There will be a change. We won't be a couple anymore, so I can lead my own life. It will be reality for her. Remember that I don't want to get back with her, so I'm not trying to make her feel bad or anything. That's not my aim. She knows I'm unhappy, but she won't do anything to fix it. So, I'm getting out. I just want to be free and not to have to deal with this s*** anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ok, well you do what you believe to be best... but be prepared to shift methods as and when the need arises.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ok, well you do what you believe to be best... but be prepared to shift methods as and when the need arises.... Absolutely... staying put is only a practical matter... if my wife leaves the house at 6 o'clock in the morning to go to work, who's going to look after the kids? And the dog? And the cats? She had a normal 9-5 job until a few years ago, but she was very unhappy, so I suggested she changes it. Unfortunately, she decided to go for shift work (which she loves), but it made my life veeery complicated, since I work from home. Not only that, her salary halved. So, I had to work even harder to make ends meet. So, again, always me me me... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 divide everything absolutely 50%. On a practical note, you have to determine the date of your separation, because the law is funny about these things. In may places, if you're still under the same roof - you're not 'separated' and procedure begins form when one of you moves out.... giotto, if you're going to do it do it right... you have to see a lawyer about getting an agreement written up that will put a period/full-stop to her being able to get you for everything you have. Again, when ex- and I separated, we agreed that after *this* date, we no longer had a claim on the future finances of the other.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 divide everything absolutely 50%. On a practical note, you have to determine the date of your separation, because the law is funny about these things. In may places, if you're still under the same roof - you're not 'separated' and procedure begins form when one of you moves out.... giotto, if you're going to do it do it right... you have to see a lawyer about getting an agreement written up that will put a period/full-stop to her being able to get you for everything you have. Again, when ex- and I separated, we agreed that after *this* date, we no longer had a claim on the future finances of the other.... sure, my first and foremost priority is to terminate our relationship. After that, I will be able to think straight and organise everything properly. Thanks for your help. It's great to have someone who can see what I'm doing wrong/right and suggest alternatives. My head is spinning at the moment! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 There is no 'wrong' or 'right' because every situation is different - but what I can tell you, and I know it's the best piece of advice I could ever give you - is to not let your emotions make your practical decisions for you. Make sure that whatever you do, it's fuelled by rational and logical, sensible thought. Don't be emotionally 'pulled' into doing something, or agreeing to something, because your guilt-guitar is being played. sure, there is room for sentiment, but don't be sentimental to your detriment. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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