Choices.

[Quiet Storm]

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone was selfish and lived life solely for their own happiness.

 

Where do you draw the line between self-love and sociopathy?

 

Is it okay for a heroin addict to rob his parents as he is seeking his dose of happiness? Is it okay for an overwhelmed mom to orphan her kids if they are cramping her style? Is it okay for a bored soldier to leave his post at the village he is protecting for an hour with a foreign prostitute? Is it okay to sneak, lie and cheat those you claim to love or make a commitment to?

 

My husband and I have three great kids that are thriving in our family unit. I am happily married, but even if I were not, I wouldn't put my own personal romantic happiness above my children's happiness. I can imagine the conversation. "Mommy's not happy here, we're splitting up the family so that I can find happiness!" The thoughts that would run through my kids heads would be so sad..."I don't make Mommy happy", "Mommy cares more about being happy than she cares about us", "If we were just better kids, Mommy would be happy". I cannot even fathom it. I would leave an abusive situation, I would leave if the kids safety was at risk, but because I'm unhappy? No. I'd find constructive ways to feel happy within my situation.

 

When I had kids, their happiness, well-being and stability trumped my own personal comfort. I would not let my own quest for romantic happiness derail their lives, and I don't understand how others do that. From my perspective, chasing the high of romantic love at the expense of those you love, is no different than the destructive choices of an alcoholic or addict.

 

I would guess that 25% of the population has a selfish mindset, and this would include sociopaths, borderlines, narcissists, addicts, alcoholics, among many others who probably have just not fully matured yet. They focus on getting and staying happy while they leave a trail of hurt and confused people in their wake.

 

The sad thing is that many of these selfish people were born with open and compassionate hearts. Many experienced trauma, abuse and neglect in their childhoods. They didn't have caregivers that modeled selfless love. They weren't taught coping skills to deal with discomfort and unhappiness, and that puts them on a constant quest to feel fulfilled. They weren't taught about patience and commitment and integrity. These children grow up and disregard the feelings of others because their feelings were disregarded. Feeling happy becomes all they care about, which is why so many end up impulsive or addicted.

 

I try to model unselfish behavior for my kids, and I also teach them to avoid people like this.

 

Happiness is within you. It is possible even in the grimmest of circumstances. Think of all the struggles previous generations have had over the years, and how people have found happiness in spite of their circumstances. Many of us would not be here today if our parents, grandparents and ancestors had not made hard choices and sacrificed for us.

 

Happiness can be found in many things. Accomplishments, work, hobbies, family, vacations, entertainment, books, pets, friendships are just some of the endless number of things that can make you happy without hurting others.

[LFH]

I'd like to bring this back to the original topic.

The topic here is not whether or not MY CHOICE or any AP's CHOICE is the "RIGHT ONE" but rather looking at the importance of being happy with the choice you do make and it's important to do that.

 

Guess you all missed that.

[Quiet Storm]

I'd like to bring this back to the original topic.

The topic here is not whether or not MY CHOICE or any AP's CHOICE is the "RIGHT ONE" but rather looking at the importance of being happy with the choice you do make and it's important to do that.

 

Guess you all missed that.

 

I think happiness is a choice. I think you either choose to be happy or miserable. It's all in how you view things.

 

Even if your choices bring painful consequences, people can justify it in their minds and still be happy. I've seen many people do this.

 

Denial and cognitive dissonance are common methods. Especially when the choices made are not in line with a person's core values or result in collateral damage.

[carhill]

Reflecting upon the past, I would say there were personally moments of happiness, however with an overall undercurrent of 'ugh', perhaps reflective of the tug-of-war between my socialization and current events of the moment. I saw it most markedly as an OM in decades past. It is in these nuances where everyone is different in how we define both the choices we make and the attendant emotions they imbue.

 

To answer the quoted passage:

 

"You've done your best to give other happiness, now what about you? After all these years, don't you deserve some peace of mind?"

 

Yes, I did (my best to give others happiness) and do (deserve peace of mind) and, at this late date in life, have it. I saw this perspective markedly when attending a wedding this past Sunday. Being at peace is a wonderful experience.

[UpwardForward]

I'd like to bring this back to the original topic.

The topic here is not whether or not MY CHOICE or any AP's CHOICE is the "RIGHT ONE" but rather looking at the importance of being happy with the choice you do make and it's important to do that.

 

Guess you all missed that.

 

Then, since there are always others involved - perhaps it's about lives touched, rather than dwelling on the so-called 'happiness' of one or two.

 

An example: One who is charitable will feel more blessed in touching lives than a bank robber.

 

The latter will have only temporal fulfillment and while touching lives in a negative manner. The charitable choice would be more positive, thus greater scope and more complete fulfillment.

[jwi71]

I'd like to bring this back to the original topic.

The topic here is not whether or not MY CHOICE or any AP's CHOICE is the "RIGHT ONE" but rather looking at the importance of being happy with the choice you do make and it's important to do that.

 

Guess you all missed that.

 

If you are not happy with the choice you make, change it.

 

Simple...and you stated it well enough in the opening post.

 

I don't really see anyone disagreeing with that.

 

It does, however, become MORE interesting when we consider choice/compromise. And if we consider all parties involved.

 

How can we truly discuss happiness and choices without context?

 

And can anyone EVER make a choice if one ONLY considers the next step...and does not extrapolate consequence to others and themselves? Who operates in such a vacuum?

 

Certainly not the WS.

 

The choices available to the WS are DEFINED by the BS...after all, how often does one face the choice of "wait till he D's" in a "normal" R or dating situation? The BS plays a role in the decision making of both WS and AP...large or small...but always there...like a shadow.

 

I find it...untenable...to argue the BS has no affect on the choices/happiness of either an WS or an AP.

 

Not attacking you at all LFW...just stating what I think to be true.

 

And, as an aside, sorry you had to deal with a stalker...I had a bit of a run-in myself and it can be quite exasperating.

[SoMovinOn]

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone was selfish and lived life solely for their own happiness.

 

I've dreamed of a world like that, although, from a different perspective - imagine a world where everyone took care of themselves and minded their own business.

 

There are too many people who are not only happy with the choices they make, but they feel the need to decide if others should or shouldn't be happy with their choices.

 

At the end of the day, if people focused on themselves first and primarily, I think the world would be a much better place.

 

Live and let live.

[SoMovinOn]

Then, since there are always others involved - perhaps it's about lives touched, rather than dwelling on the so-called 'happiness' of one or two.

 

An example: One who is charitable will feel more blessed in touching lives than a bank robber.

 

The latter will have only temporal fulfillment and while touching lives in a negative manner. The charitable choice would be more positive, thus greater scope and more complete fulfillment.

 

So how would the Robin Hood bank robber end up? Feeling more blessed for having both stuck it to the man, and helping those in need?

 

The "positive" rewards most people speak of are, often, tied strongly to religious mythology, where it is almost always demanded humans deny their human-ness and live according to some skewed utopian visions. Something like happiness is frowned upon, because it is its own reward.

 

Make absolutely no sense.

[UpwardForward]

So how would the Robin Hood bank robber end up? Feeling more blessed for having both stuck it to the man, and helping those in need?

 

The "positive" rewards most people speak of are, often, tied strongly to religious mythology, where it is almost always demanded humans deny their human-ness and live according to some skewed utopian visions. Something like happiness is frowned upon, because it is its own reward.

 

Make absolutely no sense.

 

Theft is Theft. Sin is Sin. IMO, it's a black & white world.

 

And yes, if we're pleasing God, we're pleasing man - and thus the blessing and fulfillment.

 

The 'Robin Hood' theory-theft, or redistribution of wealth is not of God. Giving comes from the heart.

[MissBee]

maybe it comes down to being able to live with your choice without having to rationalize, justify or explain it to anyone else, especially yourself.

 

I stayed with my husband after his affair because it's what I wanted to to do. Simple as that. Of course, there's a hundred reason that made up that choice, but at the end of the day, I don't feel that it requires any rationalization, justification or explanation.

 

This!

 

I have made several choices about relationships, fueled by different motivations. At the time I was in an A, I wanted what I wanted and chose the instant gratification and the happiness of the now.

 

As I have grown, I've come to realize I don't desire to make my life unnecessarily complicated. I want a straight forward relationship that inspires other people. I want a relationship that there is nothing to dissect, explain, hide, downplay etc. I just want to be able to live it out loud, transparently and have it serve a greater good. I want it to make me better and make him better and for everyone around us to see us and feel like we have something they RESPECT. I want to respect myself and my partner at the end of the day. Certainly in an A, I personally know that there is part of me that doesn't respect his choices (which is why it is strange to me when an OW says, cheating is against her values, but she can't control the MM and if he chooses to, it's not her concern). If it's not good enough for me and I don't respect it generally, I certainly find it hard to have the love of my life be one participating in something that I don't respect and something I know if found out, lots of other people won't respect him for it either.

 

Even in my platonic relationships, over the years I have cut out the "friends" who are sort of good-time-pals, but largely add nothing constructive to my life. I may have a drink or hang out with them every now and again but that's about it. It's few and far between. I prefer friends that I truly respect, who add to my life positively. My friendships are not complicated. Why should my relationship be complicated? It felt SO freeing when I left certain friends behind. Likewise, the happiness my A brought didn't make up for the complications and just that feeling of stifling because of secrecy or always having to coordinate, plan and downplay etc. It's too much for me. It had good times but largely that overall atmosphere is not sustainable for me and how I view my life and what I want out of life. Life is hard enough as is and my romantic relationships, while they will require compromise and some challenge, shouldn't be such before you even get out of the gate. That's how I now weigh and choose. Once I have to start asking too many questions, going over it too much, lowering expectations or reconfiguring core desires...I feel like that's the sign that I'm probably trying to fit a square into a hole cut out for a circle. This is any relationship, friendship or otherwise, and certainly an A for me is automatically out of the running as a happy relationship because I'm definitely gonna have to do all the above.

Edited August 8, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

The bolded sounds like a rather passive way to describe the decision of choosing to have a romantic R with a MM.

 

To me, it sounds something like:

 

I wasn't looking for this, I knew he was married, I didn't mean for it to happen, but then I found myself in love with him, now I'm happy, but don't anyone else try this.

 

In talking about choices, I think a lot of insight might be gained by trying to go back in time, to when you noticed an attraction or interest, thought of him being married, and decided to go with it. To say it just happened and you weren't looking for it does not sound like owning one's choices, which is the theme of this thread. I understand you are now choosing to stay in the A, but you also made a decision to start an A, and that is where the real life lessons start. If you think these things just happen to you, you could find yourself in affair after affair after affair.... which would not seem to jive with your advice to others of not seeking out an affair.

 

 

I agree. People say it just happened, I didn't choose it...and I sort of get their logic, but you didn't choose NOT to either. It's like people who have unprotected sex then get pregnant and say they didn't mean for it to happen. Perhaps not, but you didn't do anything for it NOT to obviously. Therein lies the difference.

 

You can't help your attraction, but you can choose to feed it or not. You don't fall inlove on first sight...that would be out of your control if it happened like that. Developing a friendship is a conscious choice...when the person is married, it's an even more conscious choice to ignore certain boundaries and develop emotional intimacy with them, which leads to more.

 

That's a testament to my own growth. In the past I had looser boundaries and fed attraction to taken men more. These days, I tell myself he's off limits and go out of my way to not create a compromising environment, if I realize I'm attracted to him and especially if it seems mutual.

Edited August 8, 2012 by MissBee

[woinlove]

I've dreamed of a world like that, although, from a different perspective - imagine a world where everyone took care of themselves and minded their own business.

 

There are too many people who are not only happy with the choices they make, but they feel the need to decide if others should or shouldn't be happy with their choices.

 

At the end of the day, if people focused on themselves first and primarily, I think the world would be a much better place.

 

Live and let live.

 

I don't see the connection between people wanting to decide for others (for example whether gays can marry or a woman can have an abortion) and people gaining happiness from loving, giving, caring, sharing, and basically making life a bit better for others. Those positive connections just feel really good.

 

I know my world would be a worse place if I felt less connected to and cared less about others, because I've been there, done that, was very selfish, and my joy, contentment and happiness lacked the depth and resiliency of my more connected existence.

 

Oh, and as for you attributing this to religion, I'm an atheist. You don't need to be religious to find happiness in caring about others.

[Radagast]

The choices available to the WS are DEFINED by the BS...after all, how often does one face the choice of "wait till he D's" in a "normal" R or dating situation? The BS plays a role in the decision making of both WS and AP...large or small...but always there...like a shadow.

 

I find it...untenable...to argue the BS has no affect on the choices/happiness of either an WS or an AP.

 

I disagree with this. My ex-wife did not define my choices. I did. She may have appeared as a supporting character in one of the scenarios but she certainly did not define the scenario and nor did she define the choice.

 

I had a choice whether to maintain my charade of family life until my children left school or to choose a more authentic life where there was a chance of real happiness for all of us. Including myself. I chose the latter, am proud of my choice, and proud of the happiness it has brought us. I celebrate it daily.