Complicated and/or Controversial Scriptures in the Bible

[sally4sara]

Hi,

 

I don't see any reason why God would be angry. You'll have to make that case. That's awesome you were able to read it! Many people do not receive the gospel until they are much older. If you were raised in church and a Christian home that may have helped you understand it. Too many variables to say for sure, but I don't think there is any biblical justification for saying KJV is the only true version. That's an argument espoused by man, much like the argument made in Tyndale's time.

 

Sure, I'd love to increase education in America.I think that is quite a different task altogether. I would rather have a modern version approved by a team of scholars that is true to the original.

 

I mean angry that the bible is being altered.

 

As I child on a particularly boring summer day at my grand parents, I remembered overhearing someone comment about what a shame it was that so many people had really read the entire book so I more read it as a point to kill time.

 

What was weird is that because I read it through while some family members only - "Please turn to the book of such and such; verse this and that and follow with me" - I am one of only two in my family that are now atheist. Others did indeed read it on the daily and I'm not finding it hard to believe they likely have read every page whether it was in cover to cover order or not. I read it again in my 20s as well hoping for a more thorough understanding when I began to doubt. I didn't find fully supportive evidence to all I was taught in church and home.

 

And I speak of an increase in education because I remember in many instances our congregation's concern of too much education being a hindrance to ones' ability to hold faith; especially in women. It was often suggested that the less knowing of the world a person, the more easily they could believe in the word of the bible and god's whisperings to their soul. Mentally handicapped children were considered perpetually innocent and blessed in a special way. The story of Genesis as well, refers to the forbidden tree in Eden as The Tree of Knowledge.

[sally4sara]

Sure, that is one interpretation. I don't think the text says they were exclusively any sexual orientation. We don't know that they were only homosexual. Bi perhaps? I personally think the text is pretty blatant that there is a sexual connotation when read in line with the other verses using the same verbiage, but I can see your point.

 

I have often wondered why the big target isn't rapists rather than homosexuals. Rape seems to be pretty tame stuff comparatively if indeed Lot was offering up his daughter in that way but was still deemed worthy.

As well in other books, rapist are treated as makeshift owners or husbands. If the they slept with another man's wife without killing him first though, then they too became sinful and sometimes deserving of death and hell.

[TheFinalWord]

I mean angry that the bible is being altered.

 

As I child on a particularly boring summer day at my grand parents, I remembered overhearing someone comment about what a shame it was that so many people had really read the entire book so I more read it as a point to kill time.

 

What was weird is that because I read it through while some family members only - "Please turn to the book of such and such; verse this and that and follow with me" - I am one of only two in my family that are now atheist. Others did indeed read it on the daily and I'm not finding it hard to believe they likely have read every page whether it was in cover to cover order or not. I read it again in my 20s as well hoping for a more thorough understanding when I began to doubt. I didn't find fully supportive evidence to all I was taught in church and home.

 

And I speak of an increase in education because I remember in many instances our congregation's concern of too much education being a hindrance to ones' ability to hold faith; especially in women. It was often suggested that the less knowing of the world a person, the more easily they could believe in the word of the bible and god's whisperings to their soul. Mentally handicapped children were considered perpetually innocent and blessed in a special way. The story of Genesis as well, refers to the forbidden tree in Eden as The Tree of Knowledge.

 

 

Yeah, it sounds like your church was a little out there (no offense). This is why the bible should be for all people, not just a few to tell us what it says. I can't speak to that specific situation. All kinds of biases exist in all human organizations; church is no different and often worse.

 

Personally, I have masters and almost PhD and education is encouraged in our church. My education has brought me closer to God, not more distance I have seen His hand in many of my educational endeavors. He has opened doors for me that are not possible normally.

 

Education can become a stumbling block if man turns it into an idol. Some people worship education, and become conceited in their knowledge. If you've been to university I'm sure you know the types of profs I'm talking about Knowledge can puff up, but knowledge itself is not evil. Same with money. Money is not evil, the love of money is evil as Paul delineated.

 

Christ frequently engaged women in conversation which was unusual in His culture. Here he is talking not only to a woman, but a woman of a minority group that was not accepted in Jewish culture. Showing God's love is for all people.

 

Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

 

4 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John — 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.

7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?”

 

 

He also gave the message of His resurrection (most important miracle) to women first, also highly unusual for that time. Women were his first witnesses, although a woman's testimony was not counted as equal in that time. Seems as though His method had clear implications about women's value as equal.

 

Paul said there is neither male nor female in Christ. Paul was a scholar, Luke was a physician, Moses was an Egyptian prince, well-educated. So I think it is how you want to read it The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not talking about not having an education. It is referring to understanding right from wrong. That's a whole other topic, but a good one to discuss sometime

 

I have often wondered why the big target isn't rapists rather than homosexuals. Rape seems to be pretty tame stuff comparatively if indeed Lot was offering up his daughter in that way but was still deemed worthy.

As well in other books, rapist are treated as makeshift owners or husbands. If the they slept with another man's wife without killing him first though, then they too became sinful and sometimes deserving of death and hell.

 

 

Not sure that there is any target per say. I agree rape is evil. We also have to keep in mind this was a very different culture with different customs. After fleeing Sodom, Lot's daughters got him drunk and engaged in sex with him to get pregnant with custom as the logic.

 

Lot and His Daughters

 

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

 

 

 

Good conversation! Thanks for your feedback. I'm kind of in a rush right now, so I apologize if these answers aren't well elucidated. I will try to give more in-depth analysis on any of the topics if you so desire. I am not an expert, but I will be happy to look into anything you request that I am unsure of. Have a good night!

Edited August 10, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

The bible contains passages that are hard to understand. Some passages are controversial and cause for concern for some people. Even Peter said some of the things Paul wrote were hard to understand.

 

"His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

 

If that's Peter, an apostle of Christ saying some scriptures are hard to understand, we should all take a humble approach

 

Please use this thread to state your contentions or questions about controversial or hard to understand scriptures from the Christian bible. The thread can range from creationism to Mosaic Law to prophecy. It would be nice to have it limited to one topic, but that probably won't happen With that said, I think it would be helpful to consider BetheButterfly's wise words of wisdom

 

 

 

Peace <><

 

Thanks for starting this thread Final Word.

 

I don't have time to write right now because I have to get my house ready for my husband's sister and family who are coming to see us!!!

 

God bless you, my bro in Christ!

[TheFinalWord]

Thanks for starting this thread Final Word.

 

I don't have time to write right now because I have to get my house ready for my husband's sister and family who are coming to see us!!!

 

God bless you, my bro in Christ!

 

Thanks for stopping by BetheButterfly!

 

No rush at all!

 

That sounds like fun! Have a good day

[pureinheart]

Oh boy...

 

Without a freaking doubt...Genesis chapter 6. The identity of the Nephilim. People think this is just a fringe, insignificent topic tucked away in the wee chapters of Genesis; but the subject rears its head throughout the entire Bible, even in the the New Testament and relates to future prophecy.

 

This one is the one that is the hardest for me to understand. A friend of mine is/has been studying it and has a good concept like you do M30...I tried to have a decent discussion with you in the thread you started, but my mind can't comprehend how it enters into the Church age. I know it does because Jesus said that as in the days of Noah etc..(if I keep going with that scripture I'll ruin it:o ) my mind just goes into confusion with this one (I'm dyslexic, so this happens a lot).

 

Do the Philistines count as these types of giants? Were they part of that orginial race?

[M30USA]

This one is the one that is the hardest for me to understand. A friend of mine is/has been studying it and has a good concept like you do M30...I tried to have a decent discussion with you in the thread you started, but my mind can't comprehend how it enters into the Church age. I know it does because Jesus said that as in the days of Noah etc..(if I keep going with that scripture I'll ruin it:o ) my mind just goes into confusion with this one (I'm dyslexic, so this happens a lot).

 

Do the Philistines count as these types of giants? Were they part of that orginial race?

 

The Nephilim were also infiltrated into other tribes. These included the Anakim (sons of Anak, who was a Nephilim), Rephaim, Zamzummim, Ammonites, and even others. Philistines were not Nephilim; they were a group of people much later in the New Testament.

 

The reason why the Nephilim subject gets undetected in the rest of the Bible is because people fail to realize that, all throughout the Old Testament, even when the term Nephilim isn't used, they are still present whenever those above listed tribes are mentioned. These are the very tribes which Joshua was ordered to kill every living thing in. The Bible doesn't spoonfeed the connection to us. It doesn't say, "God wanted Joshua to kill these tribes because they were offspring of angels." No it doesn't say that. You have to know the origins of these tribes and have to know more than just surface-deep information.

[M30USA]

Pureinheart,

 

You made a comment about how the Nephilim concept does/doesn't relate to the Church Age.

 

I cannot say for sure if the Nephilim phenomenon is at play at all in the current world. It may or may not be. All I know is it was before the Flood, also during the times of Joshua's battles, and it apparently will be again shortly before Christ returns.

 

My own personal research (which could be wrong) has found a link between Nephilim and the Neanderthals of modern science. I could list you 100 similarites just off the top of my head. If it's true that they are the same, then this leaves us with something scary: approximately 3% of everyone's DNA (except African Americans) has Neanderthal DNA. I'm not sure what to make of that. I'm still trying to make sense of this information.

[M30USA]

Interesting fact:

 

The name Anakin Skywalker (from Star Wars) is packed with Biblical meaning. In the Bible, Anak was a Nephilim, the child of a woman and angel. His children/descendents were called the Anakim. In Star Wars, Anakin (Darth Vader) had no father. It was rumored that his mother was impregnated by an angel. In Episode 1 of Star Wars you find young Anakin asking people about angels, obviously trying to fingure out where he came from. And the second part of his name, Skywalker, clearly has a connection to the fact that angels travel through the sky in the Bible.

 

Crazy, eh? These screenwriters don't just come up with names randomly. They know all of the meaning, trust me.