Borderline Personality Disorder?

[StrangeBehaviors]

Probably no experts or licensed people here.

 

But I'll ask opinions from any that may have experience.

Can a person be considered borderline if they do not appear to have a higher percentage of suicidal thoughts, desperation lows, or anything like cutting?

 

Seems all other characteristics that are typical are present.

[M30USA]

Probably no experts or licensed people here.

 

But I'll ask opinions from any that may have experience.

 

Can a person be considered borderline if they do not appear to have a higher percentage of suicidal thoughts, desperation lows, or anything like cutting?

 

Seems all other characteristics that are typical are present.

 

My understanding is that cutting and suicidal thoughts aren't the central aspect of BPD. The main characteristics are:

 

-Fear of abandonment

-Inability to empathize or see things from another's perspective

-Lack of remorse for one's wrong actions

-Splitting (people are either angels or devils at any given time)

-Extremely damaged sense of self/identity

[freestyle]

Check out BPD Family---there's a lot of great articles on their site.

 

From what I understand, it's not an easy condition to live with--for those who have it, and for those who love them.. The more reading you do, the more you'll understand.

[StrangeBehaviors]

Thanks. This person:

 

Cannot just "be". There seems no sense of happiness even when smiling, busy with something, whatever. Always a thunderstorm in the head.

 

And will therefore "create" a problem and project blame.

 

History of sexual abuse.

 

Says every past person they've had a relationship with is "bad, bad, bad. They did this to me and that....."

 

Has shown no history of ever being alone. Will set something up if ending something else. Seems to have the ability to attract people that will stay until she does the breaking up. So this person will break up with my friend and instantly have someone the next day. Done this more than once. I know he's got stuff to work on as well but seems to fall in the low self esteem category insisting he can "fix" it.

 

She get's someone in position in my opinion and then splits him black out of nowhere. He thinks he is going crazy sometimes.

 

No violent outbursts without 'cause or self harming.

 

I've told him he's not crazy, just accepting illogical behaviors. And that he should end it with no contact for 6 months. Hoping that would be a bargaining position for him so he'll do it. Then he will then want no contact ever after his head is clear.

 

Thanks for the links. Reading sounds like what he's told me and what I've seen a little. Never know until you live with someone. I think she hides a lot of what I describe well when I've been around.

 

But I see the thunderstorm.

[Feelin Frisky]

I'm sort of an expert by default of having put the many eggs of my hard-won success into a marriage-bound relationship with someone who turned out to have BPD. I did not know what that was and only discovered that it was what they call her syndrome quite some time after I finally left her. When I left I was a wreck and unfortunately I was reckless in how I chose to get away from her which put me in the belly of the beast where acting out on drugs and sex was as easy as pressing the button on an elevator. It changed my life and I'm still bitter because of the work I put in before that to be ready to sustain a marriage. Anyway, you want to know about BPD.

 

She did not "cut" and did not have suicidal ideation or any kind of classical depression. What she had was what could be characterized as "multiple personality disorder lite". Surely you've seen movies or heard stories about multiple personality people. Well, there are much more subtle cases of that kind of thing in which there is no profound assumption of entirely different identities with different names and manners. There is instead one person who has a fragmented personality where a complex scaffolding exists in which the evading of personal responsibility for anything wrong is the absolute imperative. And instigating bad and disturbing things was part of the syndrome--they mostly had to due with perception of things as threats and always assuming the worst. This trashes continuity of good will and makes for impossible relationships. Some partners may stay and settle out of desperation and not wanting to face being single again but I just would not accept that any more.

 

It gets very complex and that is why for a long, long time before it was called borderline personality disorder it was simply called a "complex". To a person in a relationship with someone like that who is sane and normal and logical, he or she will likely believe that by arguing a disagreement or misunderstanding can be overcome. But that is a terrible trap because the BPD person seems to be incapable of learning from mistakes--they have started somewhere earlier in life assuming "sub-identities" or denial mechanisms which always escape blame and shift it on to someone or something else. Even they don't know that there is anything wrong. They just think this is normal. It is not. It is dysfunctional and bizarre--but can be insidiously subtle, especially to the partner who has no knowledge of personality disorders, syndromes or psychology.

[M30USA]

FeelinFrisky,

 

Thats rough. I'm curious though if she was ever diagnosed with anything?

[Anela]

My understanding is that cutting and suicidal thoughts aren't the central aspect of BPD. The main characteristics are:

 

-Fear of abandonment

-Inability to empathize or see things from another's perspective

-Lack of remorse for one's wrong actions

-Splitting (people are either angels or devils at any given time)

-Extremely damaged sense of self/identity

 

I've been reading books about BPD - two from the perspective of women who were diagnosed and successfully treated, one by a man who married a BPD woman (because she was so beautiful and exciting), and one with a series of stories along with information on treatment and dealing with BPD's. I've read them, because I was worried that I might have somehow developed this, but I don't think so now. Going by this smaller list:

 

-Fear of abandonment - yes, to a certain point, anyway. I will pull back if I feel needy.

-Inability to empathize or see things from another's perspective - No. I can do this, usually to my own detriment.

-Lack of remorse for one's wrong actions - Definitely remorseful.

-Splitting (people are either angels or devils at any given time) - No.

-Extremely damaged sense of self/identity - Yes, in ways.

 

I've been concerned, because I've always been extremely close to my family, so I've always had someone to lean on if needed. I have never dated just to have someone; I never needed that attention. Suddenly, I wanted it more than anything (but only from one man, not a dozen). It's eased, but I've been experiencing suicidal feelings for more than two years now, and fears of abandonment/being alone, loss (death has been a big part of my life for the past few years - the grim reaper needs to take a long vacation, get some sun, read a few books, and stop getting to know my family, friends and pets). The slightest amount of stress has me panicking and I could identify with one woman who would start to wail when freaking out/arguing, and then take off at a run, running until she became more rational (I've been doing that, only walking fast, and shooting off through the woods, or around the neighbourhood, curling up in the back of the van, etc). I do relax, when I'm out, most of the time - away from stresses for a while, so there isn't always a thunderstorm, but my nerves still feel somewhat exposed: it's too easy to stress me out.

 

Ugh, I was all snuggled up, and I've been sitting here for forty minutes now. I'm glad that I found this thread, though, because as I said, I've been wondering the same thing about myself, and almost asked the same question a couple of weeks ago.

[Emilia]

One of my exes has BPD. He doesn't cut/mutilate himself but I think he had suicidal thoughts sometimes. He is prone to depression (a biproduct)

 

I didn't know anything about this personality disorder when I met him, I started suspecting that something was wrong when I realised how 'fight or flight' was hardwired into him and he lost any kind of rational reasoning or thought.

 

He does take responsibility for his actions when he is lucid and he isn't some raving crazy maniac but he disappears into a blackhole after every conflict and he admitted himself that when he is mad at me it's something that takes over his mind and thought process and he is completely unable to control it. His reaction is flight.

 

He also has trouble with close relationships, his mother is an avoidant as far as I can tell and personality disorders run in the family. He also displayed the classic signs of desire for control and he joined the Armed Forces as a result of this (there is no other reason for his joining, I do wonder how many of the boys in Military have BPD. A reasonably high number I would have thought.)

 

He also does the whole quick attachment thing combined with losing himself by mimicking the other person.

 

He struggles to relate to his own sexuality and felt I used him and exploited him this way. I'm not sure whether this is a sign of past sexual abuse or just the fear of intimacy that causes his flight. He is very giving in bed.

 

It is a hugely complex disorder, everyone is different and it will depend on their intellect to a degree how they handle it. My ex is very bright and he is trying to develop some kind of self awareness to deal with this as he isn't receiving any treatment currently as far as I know.

[StrangeBehaviors]

Would an emotionally/mentally healthy person stay with a Borderline?

[Feelin Frisky]

FeelinFrisky,

 

Thats rough. I'm curious though if she was ever diagnosed with anything?

 

 

When we were together it came out that she had been seen by a psychologist but that was all I knew. This psychologist was her cousin--a gentleman about 20 years her senior. I offered to go to see him together as a "couples counseling" initiative. It became evident during that time that he and the family knew something about her but no one was saying anything to me. I recall during a session me telling the counselor about one of her upsetting betrayals that trashed my heart and brought us a big dose of misery. I wasn't angry in my demeanor--just completely factual. He pricked up when he heard what I said and asked her if she thinks that was fair to me. She put on a sort of nervous laugh as if she found it unlikely that she even did what I said. Remember, I didn't know anything then about any of the mental health issues I know about now. I was just a relatively normal and inexperienced guy looking to get married as his mid-thirties were approaching. I recall us leaving the session and her jumping on my back and me giving her a piggy back ride down the steps outside the practice. I was very innocent and did not know that things would continue to get worse and that it would actually drive me somewhat insane.

 

One day after one bout of fighting and heart-ache I called her mother and asked if I could take her to lunch on my day off without my g/f present for me to get to know her and her to know me a bit better. My g/f's dad was long deceased. So, as we were having lunch it led to us talking about the latest fiasco and me telling her mother that I want so much to love her daughter but these things keep happening and I don't know what to do to figure it out. Her mother said to me that she had no insight either but that she had heard almost the exact same appeal from Paul two years earlier--Paul being the guy my g/f had married who wound up divorcing her. That was telling.

 

On the wall at her house was a sketch made of my g/f at about age 12 by her older brother who was a truly talented artist. The portrait perfectly articulated a disturbed young women, lost and confused--somewhat melancholy, somewhat ragefull. It was uncanny that a an could capture and express perfectly a young woman with BPD. I did not connect these dots then--they all fit together in my therapies yeas later. But I remember being struck by that gray-scale charcoal portrait--you'd expect something much more flattering from an older brother trying to voice his beautiful-looking younger sister. But he voiced the absolute essence of who she was. So, it is clear that the family was seeing character and developmental issues that were cause for concern. They too however were not very sophisticated (except for the artist guy) and just looked at it as how it is. Her mother died suddnely of a heart attack a year later while we were still together so there was no more to be leaned from her.

[cerridwen]

Would an emotionally/mentally healthy person stay with a Borderline?

 

 

It's my opinion it depends on where the disordered person is in his/her recovery; that person's capability to improve; his/her commitment to treatment.

 

An emotionally/mentally healthy person won't put up with someone not intent or capable of getting well.

Edited August 10, 2012 by cerridwen

[StrangeBehaviors]

It's my opinion it depends on where the disordered person is in his/her recovery; that person's capability to improve; his/her commitment to treatment.

 

An emotionally/mentally healthy person won't put up with someone not intent or capable of getting well.

 

Thanks. It would seem that a non-treated, or non-treatable?, borderline would require an unhealthy emotional mate with fairly low self esteem to sustain the relationship. (Maybe just restated what you said.)

 

So the only way a borderline's chance for a long-term relationship is if they are treated/treatable, and their mate is very much healthy & well rounded emotionally.

 

Seems all the ingredients would likely always be present for the percentages to be very low for a borderline and any mate to sustain anything. They probably have the highest amount of relationships and breakups of any category.

 

Wonder if there are statistics?

[Meg717]

Here is the criteria to be diagnosed BPD according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual on Mental Disorders... Most personality disorders overlap with other personality disorders such as narcissistic or histrionic. I just got done with abnormal psych so I learned all about it...

 

 

 

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

 

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

7. chronic feelings of emptiness

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

 

The DSM IV goes on to say:

 

The essential feature of Borderline Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.

[Meg717]

Thanks. It would seem that a non-treated, or non-treatable?, borderline would require an unhealthy emotional mate with fairly low self esteem to sustain the relationship. (Maybe just restated what you said.)

 

So the only way a borderline's chance for a long-term relationship is if they are treated/treatable, and their mate is very much healthy & well rounded emotionally.

 

Seems all the ingredients would likely always be present for the percentages to be very low for a borderline and any mate to sustain anything. They probably have the highest amount of relationships and breakups of any category.

 

Wonder if there are statistics?

 

The biggest problem with people that suffer from borderline personality disorder is that they feel they aren't the problem, everyone else has a problem so because of this sometimes it's hard to get them into treatment.

[cerridwen]

Thanks. It would seem that a non-treated, or non-treatable?, borderline would require an unhealthy emotional mate with fairly low self esteem to sustain the relationship. (Maybe just restated what you said.)

 

So the only way a borderline's chance for a long-term relationship is if they are treated/treatable, and their mate is very much healthy & well rounded emotionally.

 

Seems all the ingredients would likely always be present for the percentages to be very low for a borderline and any mate to sustain anything. They probably have the highest amount of relationships and breakups of any category.

 

Wonder if there are statistics?

 

It stands to reason that the healthier the individuals, the better chances of sustaining a LTR, yes?

 

So, a central question then becomes "Can someone who has Emotional Regulation Disorder ever be healthy?"

 

I believe the answer is yes, it's possible for some to be healthy enough to have a LTR.

 

Some can learn to regulate their emotions through DBT (for example), medication (if applicable), and other supportive treatments, to the point of being healthy enough for positive interpersonal relations.

But it continues to be an extremely challenging disorder to treat, in part because of the high rate of non-compliance.

 

Marsha Linehan is an esteemed expert in this particular disorder.

She developed the highly regarded Dialectic Behavioral style of therapy that has helped multitudes of ERD sufferers.

Last year, she disclosed she has the disorder herself.

Read up on her latest work in the area.

And as Freestyle recommended, check out BPD Family website.

Edited August 10, 2012 by cerridwen

[M30USA]

Just saw some research which said that sociopathology is on the rise because, among other factors, children are spending less time with fathers.

[cerridwen]

I also wanted to add that the person who is involved with a ERD sufferer should be well-versed in the disorder;

be able to hold boundaries;

be able to emotionally-disengage;

and be able to walk away if circumstances become unhealthy.

 

But equally important is that he/she not see the loved one as a label,

not as the disorder

but as a person for whom ERD is but one component.

Intelligent compassion: many are deserving of it.

[Emilia]

 

But equally important is that he/she not see the loved one as a label,

not as the disorder

but as a person for whom ERD is but one component.

Intelligent compassion: many are deserving of it.

 

Yes very much so. Many struggle with it and want to get better.

[Quiet Storm]

My sister has a severe case of BPD complete with cutting, an eating disorder and suicide attempts.

 

She is in her early 30s now and was never able to get it together. She has been inpatient for months long stays at Sheppard Pratt and it hasn't helped. She has done DBT therapy, as well.

 

She lost her marriage and custody of her son, and is still causing my parents drama and heartache.

 

I love her but a real relationship with her is impossible. I want her to get better but to be honest, I feel hopeless. It can get very tiring, and when I see the hell she puts my parents through I find myself being less compassionate than I know I should be towards her.

 

She has calmed down slightly as she aged. At 18 she was bulimic and cutting much more than she is now. Now she has settled into a calm depression, with weekly episodes of drama. She has not made a suicide threat in over a year, in which she told my mother she was going to jump off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. My mother thought she was bluffing, as she often does, but she called the police and they used her cell phone number to locate her near the bridge. She had not jumped, but was sitting in her car crying and writing a note.

 

Nothing is ever her fault and she lies about everything. She is very immature, and talking to her is like talking to a teenager. She is very gossipy and worried about social teenage things, like who is going out with who, what people say on facebook, etc. She projects an image of what she wants others to see. She copies the guy she is with. She met a rasta type dude, a week later she had dreads, loved reggae and was smoking pot. About a month later, she met a Christian guy, read the bible, dressed conservatively and went to church twice a week. A month after that, she met a guy from the Naval Academy, and thought it would be cute to take sexy pics in his sailor uniform and posted them on facebook without his knowledge (they aren't supposed to share their uniforms), for all to see.

 

Needless to say, it takes about a month for these dudes to realize that she may be cute, but she is mentally unstable.

 

Tell your friend to never have kids with her and not to depend on her for birth control. BPD kids suffer the most. My nephew feels abandoned by his mother and is having behavioral issues, which have been attributed to his experiences and relationship with his mother.

[StrangeBehaviors]

My sister has a severe case of BPD complete with cutting, an eating disorder and suicide attempts.

 

She is in her early 30s now and was never able to get it together. She has been inpatient for months long stays at Sheppard Pratt and it hasn't helped. She has done DBT therapy, as well.

 

She lost her marriage and custody of her son, and is still causing my parents drama and heartache.

 

I love her but a real relationship with her is impossible. I want her to get better but to be honest, I feel hopeless. It can get very tiring, and when I see the hell she puts my parents through I find myself being less compassionate than I know I should be towards her.

 

She has calmed down slightly as she aged. At 18 she was bulimic and cutting much more than she is now. Now she has settled into a calm depression, with weekly episodes of drama. She has not made a suicide threat in over a year, in which she told my mother she was going to jump off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. My mother thought she was bluffing, as she often does, but she called the police and they used her cell phone number to locate her near the bridge. She had not jumped, but was sitting in her car crying and writing a note.

 

Nothing is ever her fault and she lies about everything. She is very immature, and talking to her is like talking to a teenager. She is very gossipy and worried about social teenage things, like who is going out with who, what people say on facebook, etc. She projects an image of what she wants others to see. She copies the guy she is with. She met a rasta type dude, a week later she had dreads, loved reggae and was smoking pot. About a month later, she met a Christian guy, read the bible, dressed conservatively and went to church twice a week. A month after that, she met a guy from the Naval Academy, and thought it would be cute to take sexy pics in his sailor uniform and posted them on facebook without his knowledge (they aren't supposed to share their uniforms), for all to see.

 

Needless to say, it takes about a month for these dudes to realize that she may be cute, but she is mentally unstable.

 

Tell your friend to never have kids with her and not to depend on her for birth control. BPD kids suffer the most. My nephew feels abandoned by his mother and is having behavioral issues, which have been attributed to his experiences and relationship with his mother.

 

Thanks. I've pretty much written off the situation 'cause in my opinion he's half the problem. Low self esteem plus accepting of it all after recognizing the patterns and her BPD makes for goooood dysfunction.

 

Been going on & off for around two years. Think he'll have to hit some sort of rock bottom like most people.

 

I find BPD very interesting now. I was not aware of it until coming here. Just always called it "B!tch acting crazy."

 

I went out with someone years ago for a few months that I'm now convinced was BPD.

 

They:

Had just broken up with someone. Almost fanatically attached to me quickly. I think they get an unhealthy fixation on someone in the early stages.

 

Good sex often. I've had better in long-term relationships though. I think the person I saw, and my friends woman, use sex as some sort of system regulation for themselves. Like it calms the storm in the brain for a little while.

 

Seemed to want to please me abnormally in my opinion at the beginning of the relationship.

 

Then I noticed something that was happening. She was always complimenting me. "You're so good looking. Good at this or that. Sex is awesome...." I told her it was appreciated but not necessary. I'm happy with who I am. I could tell it threw her off some.

 

I just thought that maybe she dated others in the past that needed constant reassurance or something and it was a habit. What I think now after doing some reading on this is that they were not compliments at all. It was an attempt to get me to redirect return compliments towards her. She was saying what she wanted me to say. Making it about her as I've read some BPD'ers do.

 

I knew something was not right, but had no idea what. Then one day out of nowhere she creates an argument, accuses me of behaviors without foundation or logic at all, and is overall dissatisfied in the relationship. Didn't leave any inkling that something could be worked on. After this out of nowhere plus the other stuff, I didn't want to pursue this further.

 

So I listen calmly and say "Ok, I understand. Then let's just go our separate ways. Good luck to us both, we'll meet others. We won't communicate further through phone, email, etc. That will be best for both of us."

 

At which point she begins crying like a child for a good bit.

 

Anyway, within two days, she had a new boyfriend. Like I said, at the time I just labeled it "Crazy B!tch". Now, after seeing it again and reading here, I'm pretty convinced she has BPD.

 

Fascinatingly horrible thing to see.

Edited August 11, 2012 by StrangeBehaviors

[StrangeBehaviors]

Anyone able to more clearly define what a "need gratifying object" means?

 

Thanks.

[Downtown]

If a person with BPD is treated through therapy without a partner, the success rate of the treatment is around 7%, however the success rate rises to 75% if the person who has BPD goes into therapy with a partner.

Heart, I've been reading about BPD for six years and have never come across such a bold claim. If there is an online authority or study supporting your figures, please share it with us. I sure would like to see it.

 

Although there are many excellent treatment programs available, it is extremely difficult to get BPDers to seek therapy. Even when they do, it is highly unlikely they will stay with it. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better shot flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. See AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline..

They can't help how they behave, they don't control it.

I strongly disagree. Actually, BPDers can control "how they behave." If you doubt that, just call the police the next time your BPDer partner is throwing a tantrum and chasing you around the house. As soon as there is a knock on the door, you will see a raging bully transform completely -- in just ten seconds -- into the calmest, sweetest person you've ever seen. Although BPDers are not responsible for having their disorder, they must be held responsible for their behavior and must be allowed to suffer the logical consequence of their own bad choices. Otherwise, you are simply enabling them -- and are harming them by denying them the opportunity to confront their issues and learn how to manage them. Edited September 3, 2012 by Downtown

[Emilia]

Actually, BPDers can control "how they behave." If you doubt that, just call the police the next time your BPDer partner is throwing a tantrum and chasing you around the house. As soon as there is a knock on the door, you will see a raging bully transform completely -- in just ten seconds -- into the calmest, sweetest person you've ever seen. Although BPDers are not responsible for having their disorder, they must be held responsible for their behavior and must be allowed to suffer the logical consequence of their own bad choices. Otherwise, you are simply enabling them -- and are harming them by denying them the opportunity to confront their issues and learn how to manage them.

 

Yes I agree. My ex was responsive to my pointing out his behavioural issues.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I've read a bit about the subject of BPD.

 

Relationships for people that have BPD are very difficult. They can't help how they behave, they don't control it. They suffer under it. Their partner also suffers.

 

The ironic thing is, that if a person with BPD is treated through therapy without a partner, the success rate of the treatment is around 7%, however the success rate rises to 75% if the person who has BPD goes into therapy with a partner. Going into therapy with a group of people who also have BPD also increases the success rate.

 

If my (future) SO turned out to have BPD and her behavior would be damaging to me, herself and the relationship, then I would only be willing to continue the relationship under the condition that we'd both go into therapy together as a couple, so that the chance for a successful treatment would be maximized for her.

 

That's actually very sweet of you HOAL. Many men would run screaming.

[carhill]

BPDers can control "how they behave." If you doubt that, just call the police the next time your BPDer partner is throwing a tantrum and chasing you around the house. As soon as there is a knock on the door, you will see a raging bully transform completely -- in just ten seconds -- into the calmest, sweetest person you've ever seen.

I've noted this as well. I call it 'light switch' behavior.

 

One aspect I have noted, having cared for a psychotic person, is that, generally, 'agree and redirect' doesn't work well on confirmed or suspected BPD-class disorders like it does with psychosis. If the object is being viewed as demonic, little to no behavior modification/manipulation will be effective. Removing oneself from the dynamic until the demonic phase has 'flipped' is the only equitable and healthy solution I've been able to find.

 

I've seen little evidence of demonstrated suicidal behaviors/self mutilation in mature (meaning my age group) suspected or confirmed disordered people. Possible? Sure. It'll be interesting to see how the next DSM is interpreted in this area when it comes out. Change is a constant when it comes to brain/psychology research.