Borderline Personality Disorder?

[Emilia]

Guys have any of you seen a BPD sufferer twist it around, so that they TRULY believe that you are problem? Example below..

 

Basically everything you accuse them of, the reword it and throw it back at you!! I would love a BPD sufferer to explain the pure and utter 'craziness' behind this...

 

The really interesting aspect is the sly smile when they see it's worked. Such is why locked institutions exist.

 

If I understand correctly what you are referring to is what exactly I ignored in my last conversation with my ex. It is an extreme defense mechanism, it's almost like they are expecting you to say it and they want to get in to say it first to protect their ego.

 

It is very disturbing until you learn to rationalise it and see it for what it is

[Emilia]

I can definitely shed some light on this because I do it myself. Here's the thing though...I'm not always aware of my tendency to do this while I'm IN the moment. Emotions, stress and frustrations are often at their peak...

It's also not nearly as much to do with the other person involved as it is about ME.

 

For example: there are many, many times when I have issues with authority (e.g., bosses, managers of stores, security guards, older family members) and I believe this stems back to my days as a young one who grew up in a very strict family. They were quite loving but I was often told what I was thinking, how I should do something and what TO do and NOT to do. As I got older, I learned to avoid the restrictive nature of my environment by "pushing the limits" (e.g., I struggled to gain my independence through inappropriate methods because otherwise I had no individuality). I'd get anger, threaten, sulk, manipulate but it was because of MY own frustrations. As I got older, when I'd been told by a superior about HOW I SHOULD be expected to do something, that's when these behaviours poured out of me without fully comprehending why I was acting this way.

 

Any kind of situation where you are involved with a BPD'er "turning the tables"...it's because 'subconsciously' it awakens something within them that just doesn't feel right. Perhaps they can't accept blame for something due to previous feelings of being a failure. Perhaps they can't accept rejection and turn on you in anger because of previous experiences with being made to feel like they weren't important. It all comes down to it being about THEM and their reaction is due to some unresolved/uncomfortable aspect of them which was formed early on. It it's the BPD'ers ineffective coping strategies and how it "justifies" the opposite of how a situation is truly making them feel about themselves.

 

A very good explanation thank you, this is what I see in my ex also. I think he has similar reasons for developing the dysfunction, I don't really believe he was sexually abused, I am by no means any kind of experienced person in that it's just that side of him seemed completely normal - except when he shut me out - and he isn't promiscuous. I think he definitely struggles with authority like you do, he grew up in a strict family raised by much older parents as the youngest sibling (by far) who was probably conceived by mistake basically and his mother was distant. In fact I know from conversations that her emotional distance from my ex's father has always been an issue and that they are in a codependent relationship.

 

I see many of his attempts at viscousness as self defence as mentioned in my previous post.

[Mack05]

so I think there is a chance that he will think this through. Who knows really though.

 

I don't think there is Emilia. I think the BPD thought process is something we are never meant to understand. I think you can prove to them a million ways that the world is round, only for you to be 'convinced' by them that no the world is indeed flat.

 

I mean I have made the same plea (i.e. she has BPD) in the past to my ex. I have given her overwhelming evidence that she suffers from BPD, only for her to come back and say that I do. Her reactions were exactly how an article I read said they would be. She truly believes that I am out to viciously hurt her, when the opposite is the truth. I think I care more about her future then I do for any of my other ex's.

 

In an indirect way she is always defending herself. My new relationship is easy. I just shake my head at her Naivety. I baffles me how a girl so bright thinks she has suddenly cracked it at age 41. Like it's that simple just to meet Mr Right and have the perfect relationship after her past. It's a train wreck waiting to happen. I would love to be wrong, but if you can't acknowledge this illness then no interpersonal relationship can work. It's just a matter of when it fails. Of course she could be lying through her teeth about this new relationship. With her anything is possible.

 

I would hope after it fails that she would say to herself, ok Mackie may be onto something here. I know for me it would be awesome down the line if my ex came to me and said I have been diagnosed with BPD and I am getting help for it. I would feel that I made a real and genuine difference to her life. That is not going to happen. When her new relationship fails she will just repeat the same cycle.

 

I believe in fate. I believe I was brought into her life to bring her a message. Sadly it is a message she will never act on. She will never accept that BPD is the issue. Like your ex Emilia she knows something is wrong. She has been through a string of bad relationships, a string of therapists. Therapy isn't going to make an ounce of difference. It's like taking a flu remedy for a broken leg.

 

She is a very bright girl. She does pick things up from each relationship and tries put them into practice in her next relationship. It's like learning a formula off by heart, but having no idea how the formula works or how it all adds up. I know she has learned TONS from me and is putting into practice now (even though she would never admit that).

 

I am very happy not to have her in my life anymore, but I will always care for her. I would love to have made a difference. I know I have my own stuff I need to stay on top of but it's this part of my life I find hard to let go. I feel like I failed her, but not being able to help her. That is the silly junkie mind of the codependent person.

 

I see many of his attempts at viscousness as self defence as mentioned in my previous post.

 

I see this now too..

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mack05

[Emilia]

I don't think there is Emilia. I think the BPD thought process is something we are never meant to understand. I think you can prove to them a million ways that the world is round, only for you to be 'convinced' by them that no the world is indeed flat.

 

You are probably right. I'm happy to talk about it here but I don't really want to have that conversation with him again. My job is done.

 

I feel like I failed her, but not being able to help her. That is the silly junkie mind of the codependent person.

 

Yes it is. One thing you must remember is that you can't help anyone who don't want to help themselves. After all, strictly speaking, we have no right to tell anyone what to do with their lives

[Mack05]

You are probably right. I'm happy to talk about it here but I don't really want to have that conversation with him again. My job is done.

 

Yes it is. One thing you must remember is that you can't help anyone who don't want to help themselves. After all, strictly speaking, we have no right to tell anyone what to do with their lives

 

Totally true.

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so having her repeat the stuff I thought her is kinda cool....

[AlexDP]

Your post is based on ignorance and is very offensive.

 

I know you are prone to posting on LS in a gung-ho manner but I would like you to respect certain sections where bickering isn't common and where every effort is made that posts are constructive. If you wish you argue, please choose the dating section. Thanks

 

It's not based on ignorance. People with BPD are what they are. We are not talking about schizophrenia.

 

With BPD we are talking about people who consciously make choices. They are fully accountable and at all times do they know what they are doing.

 

Saying that it is a disorder and that we should feel sorry for them is giving them excuses. Extreme emotions? Please. Learn to regulate your emotions, like everyone else.

 

There is a reason, Emilia, that a BPD sufferer has the exact same behaviour of an adolescent girl.

[Emilia]

 

There is a reason, Emilia, that a BPD sufferer has the exact same behaviour of an adolescent girl.

 

Yes there is AlexDP and you can come back to this conversation when you know what you are talking about. In the meantime I'm putting you on ignore because what I see is disruptive posting and I have no tolerance for that.

[AlexDP]

I mean why would my ex swear on her grandmothers grave? She must (in that mental head of hers) believe my mother said what she said..

 

JLC would be great to get insight to this and BPDers lying in general.

 

Because getting what they want is more important than the moral implications of lying. You see the same with psychopaths. The lie is irrelevant.

 

Also, as a lawyer I've seen many cases where people who are clearly lying start to believe their own lies. If you tell it enough times, it starts to become the truth.

 

It's also interesting to note how BPD is judged inside courtrooms. In Holland it sort of matters with BPD killers for example getting a jail sentence coupled with therapy. In Belgium on the other hand, they are deemed fully responsible (the correct English legal term escapes me), because they know what they are doing.

 

I cannot for the life of me feel sorry for someone who, without any outside pressure whatsoever, chooses to hurt others in order to gain a perceived advantage.

 

Feeling sorry for such people is not constructive to our society and is just about as bad as doing it yourself.

[AlexDP]

Yes there is AlexDP and you can come back to this conversation when you know what you are talking about. In the meantime I'm putting you on ignore because what I see is disruptive posting and I have no tolerance for that.

 

I understand that you want your ex to be this beautiful black and white creature, with greatness inside him when he's okay and sheer evil when he's not. I get that. It's cool. But it's not true. He's human. Like everyone else. And probably much more banal than you think.

 

When it comes down to it, BPD is about behaviour. There are no other clinical ways to diagnose people. The diagnosis of BPD is an interpretation. Nothing more nothing less. People with BPD also choose to display certain behaviour.

 

I challenge you to show me that:

 

a) BPD is linked exclusively to traumatic childhood experiences.

b) Thought patterns of people with BPD are visible in the brain (as is the case with schizophrenia).

c) People with BPD are not free to choose what they want to do and are forced, by their mental disorder, to do things they would otherwise disapprove of.

 

Show me that and I'll believe that BPD is actually a disorder in the first place.

Edited March 28, 2013 by AlexDP

[Mack05]

I cannot for the life of me feel sorry for someone who, without any outside pressure whatsoever, chooses to hurt others in order to gain a perceived advantage.

 

 

Firstly, I guess we not meant to understand why they do the things they do and secondly in the end surely the only person that they are hurting is themselves? Isn't that the saddest part of the disorder?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mack05

[AlexDP]

Firstly I guess we not meant to understand and secondly in the end surely the only person that they are hurting is themselves? Isn't that the saddest part of the disorder?

 

It's only a disorder in the sense that it is a wrong thought pattern. This thought pattern would change very quickly if people around them treated them as normal human beings. What happens instead is: people walk on eggshells or believe their lies and they are confirmed in their thought process.

 

Instead of being punished for this nonsense, they are praised and rewarded. And that's the true problem society faces today.

 

One of the most basic treatment rules of BPD is: when they show erratic behaviour, go away and do not engage.

 

 

I don't understand why people on this forum do not comprehend that this comes down to punishing them for bad behaviour and telling them to go **** themselves. Because that's what it is. You punish them for bad behaviour and eventually they will display good behaviour. Unless, of course, you are insistent on making excuses for them.

Edited March 28, 2013 by AlexDP

[AlexDP]

Also, let us remind ourselves that every functional relationship is based on giving and receiving:

 

There is nothing to receive from a person with BPD. They will lie to you, trick you, abandon you and push you under a moving bus if, at the time, it seems to work out well for them.

 

This is beyond horrible. It's the worst form of treason known to man. Why on Earth would you not only feel sorry for such a person, but even try to help him? If you're mentally healthy yourself, you would just go as far away as possible.

 

Which, again, is what therapists often do.

[Downtown]

What most people don't realize is that individuals with BPD don't engage in certain behaviours to target and manipulate others...these behaviours come out as a RESULT of our OWN internal battles.

I agree, JLC. Granted, there are some BPDers who are manipulative, short, and have bad hair. None of those traits, however, are caused by BPD.

 

In the case of manipulation, you likely are seeing traits of narcissism or sociopathy. Most people having full-blown BPD also suffer from another PD as well. The result is that many laymen end up mistakenly attributing some traits (e.g., manipulation) to the BPD when it is actually due to another PD.

 

Due to their abandonment fear, BPDers tend to be very controlling, trying to control many aspects of their loved one's life to keep him from walking out. They also typically will try to be manipulating occasionally, in an effort to prevent abandonment. However, BPDers generally are terrible at manipulation -- because they are so highly reactive to their current feelings -- and thus do not rely on it.

 

To be good at manipulation, one must take time to carefully plan and then must execute that plan flawlessly. This is an area where narcissists and sociopaths excel and BPDers typically fail. As I said, they are so reactive to their feelings that they quickly abandon any plans they had made. This, at least, is my understanding based on 15 years with my BPDer exW.

I don't believe ... that BPDers view 'lying' as a non would.

Mack, my experience is that BPDers will lie if you get them into a corner where they will feel humiliation to admit the truth. Yet, among the many primitive defense mechanisms available to a BPDer (e.g., projection, distraction, temper tantrums, dissociation, and lying) lying is the very LAST one that would be used.

 

Instead, BPDers rely most heavily on projection, which occurs when the BPDer's subconscious protects her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. The beauty of projection is that it occurs entirely in the subconscious. This means that the conscious mind is unaware that the projection is false and thus can honestly believe that it is real. Importantly, this means that all projections are GUILT FREE.

 

Lies, in contrast, are laden with guilt -- which is a huge disadvantage for people -- like BPDers -- who are filled with self loathing and shame. This is why BPDers will avoid lies as much as they can, relying instead on the many other primitive defense mechanisms at their disposal.

 

Again, this does NOT imply you won't find a BPDer who tells lots of lies and is extremely manipulative. Of course you will, just like you will find BPDers having blond hair and wearing red dresses. Yet, as I noted above, what you are seeing in those instances are not traits of BPD but, rather, traits of narcissism or sociopathy. Indeed, many people have strong traits of all three of those PDs.

[Mack05]

Not sure I agree with all this Downtown. I think for a BPD suffer, the lies help with the manipulation. It is almost part of the game. As you said they are so bad at manipulating. Once you start to free yourself out of the web she has woven (this obviously takes longer for some then it does for others) even the most naive emotionally immature man after awhile, can see what they are trying to do a mile off.

 

I have seen my ex tell lie after lie after lie. I have no idea if she knew what she was doing or not. I will never know for sure if in her head, that she really believed what she was trying to tell me.

 

My personally opinion is that she probably knew exactly what she was doing. I do believe she has a sinister dark side, which she tries to hide at the beginning. How aware she is of all this, is very much open to debate. It's certainly not a black and white thing, hence where there is so much debate behind this disorder.

 

I think she hopes to meet a guy and all that someone will see is her nice caring side. I believe she is looking for a guy who "won't press her buttons" the wrong way. Now while you have BPD this is impossible. Hence the cycle repeating over and over.

 

For me there was always a justification for her negative behaviours.."You made me do it". I truly believe she feels that "I made her do it". Which means she was therefore 'allowed' to behave negatively in the ways she did..

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mack05

[AlexDP]

Not sure I agree with all this Downtown. I think for a BPD suffer, the lies help with the manipulation. It is almost part of the game. As you said they are so bad at manipulating. Once you start to free yourself out of the web she has woven (this obviously takes longer for some then it does for others) even the most naive emotionally immature man after awhile, can see what they are trying to do a mile off.

 

I have seen my ex tell lie after lie after lie. I have no idea if she knew what she was doing or not. I will never know for sure if in her head, that she really believed what she was trying to tell me.

 

My personally opinion is that she probably knew exactly what she was doing. I do believe she has a sinister dark side, which she tries to hide at the beginning. How aware she is of all this, is very much open to debate. It's certainly not a black and white thing, hence where there is so much debate behind this disorder.

 

I think she hopes to meet a guy and all that someone will see is her nice caring side. I believe she is looking for a guy who "won't press her buttons" the wrong way. Now while you have BPD this is impossible. Hence the cycle repeating over and over.

 

For me there was always a justification for her negative behaviours.."You made me do it". I truly believe she feels that "I made her do it". Which means she was therefore 'allowed' to behave negatively in the ways she did..

 

Can you see, Mack, why this means that you should hold her responsible?

[AlexDP]

Yet, among the many primitive defense mechanisms available to a BPDer (e.g., projection, distraction, temper tantrums, dissociation, and lying) lying is the very LAST one that would be used.

 

Instead, BPDers rely most heavily on projection, which occurs when the BPDer's subconscious protects her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. The beauty of projection is that it occurs entirely in the subconscious. This means that the conscious mind is unaware that the projection is false and thus can honestly believe that it is real. Importantly, this means that all projections are GUILT FREE.

 

Lies, in contrast, are laden with guilt -- which is a huge disadvantage for people -- like BPDers -- who are filled with self loathing and shame. This is why BPDers will avoid lies as much as they can, relying instead on the many other primitive defense mechanisms at their disposal.

 

Again, this does NOT imply you won't find a BPDer who tells lots of lies and is extremely manipulative. Of course you will, just like you will find BPDers having blond hair and wearing red dresses. Yet, as I noted above, what you are seeing in those instances are not traits of BPD but, rather, traits of narcissism or sociopathy. Indeed, many people have strong traits of all three of those PDs.

 

 

If you're a scientist and you wish to evaluate a hypothesis, the best way to go at it is try to prove it wrong.

 

What you don't do is try to collect evidence to prove it right, because that way you will only see things that "prove" your hypothesis.

 

What you're saying here has no scientific basis. We don't know if it's true. It's a good theory. One that rids the person with BPD from guilt and helps you in understanding the "disorder".

 

The other hypothesis is that the person with BPD is just a jerk. Given the amount of jerks in the world, I'd bet on the second hypothesis.

[Mack05]

Can you see, Mack, why this means that you should hold her responsible?

 

I don't thinks a case of holding someone responsible. That is what 'they' do. A relationship takes two to make work and I am more than happy to take 50% of the burden as to why it failed.

 

I no longer see it my role to help her. Its my role to learn, so that this never happens again. The psychology of her behaviour fascinates me. I think studying and understanding her behaviours will help me learn and grow as a person.

 

If I can see and understand other perspectives it can only be a good thing going forward. I find threads like this very educational. The more differing viewpoints the better..

[camillalev]

After reading this thread I think I have BPD :/

[AlexDP]

I don't thinks a case of holding someone responsible. That is what 'they' do. A relationship takes two to make work and I am more than happy to take 50% of the burden as to why it failed.

 

I no longer see it my role to help her. Its my role to learn, so that this never happens again. The psychology of her behaviour fascinates me. I think studying and understanding her behaviours will help me learn and grow as a person.

 

If I can see and understand other perspectives it can only be a good thing going forward. I find threads like this very educational. The more differing viewpoints the better..

 

In the end they only heal if they choose to heal. BPD is a choice. If we no longer accept their behaviour and no longer engage with them, they will have no choice but to heal.

 

You will never understand her behaviour, but you should understand her psychology and arm yourself against people such as her. Learn to walk away, learn to completely drop people like her and never ever try to help them. It will only turn out badly for you.

 

What's great about people with BPD is that they make you much stronger as a person. It's not a "pretty" quality, but you learn to let go and drop people when they do unacceptable things.

[Mack05]

After reading this thread I think I have BPD :/

 

Camilla if you are not sure you should try talk to a mental health professional.

 

My gut instinct from reading your other threads is you don't have BPD. BPDers RARELY admit they could potentially have BPD, especially just from reading a thread..

[Mack05]

In the end they only heal if they choose to heal. BPD is a choice. If we no longer accept their behaviour and no longer engage with them, they will have no choice but to heal.

 

You will never understand her behaviour, but you should understand her psychology and arm yourself against people such as her. Learn to walk away, learn to completely drop people like her and never ever try to help them. It will only turn out badly for you.

 

What's great about people with BPD is that they make you much stronger as a person. It's not a "pretty" quality, but you learn to let go and drop people when they do unacceptable things.

 

I agree that I will never understand her and that the time spent with my ex has made me a stronger and more person. What I don't agree with is your first statement. My ex is an exotic beauty. Beautiful dark brown skin, BIG brown eyes, long black thick hair. A body that just doesn't quit. The kind of girl you turn your head at when she walks down the street. If I don't engage her, she will find 1000's who will. For some reason BPDers tend in general to be quite attractive.

 

Alex I have never encountered BPD up until 2 years ago. I was lucky I done some research when I met her, cause at least it enabled me to figure out what was wrong. What about the guys who have never had a BPD relationship before? They could be conned for months if not years, especially if the adoration/honeymoon period is very good.

 

My point is they will always find someone to engage them. The cycle repeats and repeats and some never heal. My ex will probably never heal.

[AlexDP]

I agree that I will never understand her and that the time spent with my ex has made me a stronger and more person. What I don't agree with is your first statement. My ex is an exotic beauty. Beautiful dark brown skin, BIG brown eyes, long black thick hair. A body that just doesn't quit. The kind of girl you turn your head at when she walks down the street. If I don't engage her, she will find 1000's who will. For some reason BPDers tend in general to be quite attractive.

 

Alex I have never encountered BPD up until 2 years ago. I was lucky I done some research when I met her, cause at least it enabled me to figure out what was wrong. What about the guys who have never had a BPD relationship before? They could be conned for months if not years, especially if the adoration/honeymoon period is very good.

 

My point is they will always find someone to engage them. The cycle repeats and repeats and some never heal. My ex will probably never heal.

 

Because, indeed, people will always engage. But not you. That's what matters. If I see someone who displays behaviour like that, they are dead to me.

 

She does it to herself, she can only heal if she chooses to heal and you have no influence on her whatsoever. So why bother? Why not cut her out of your life?

 

Why the pity?

[Mack05]

She does it to herself, she can only heal if she chooses to heal and you have no influence on her whatsoever. So why bother? Why not cut her out of your life?

 

Why the pity?

 

She is out of my life. The pity? Cause I have never been a scared *****less 7 year old kid lying awake in my bed not knowing if one of my fathers friends would come in and do god knows what to me. I have never been abused physically and emotionally by a drunken father. Now you think she has made it up. I don't believe that for a second. It explains well, everything really.

 

Unless you walk in someones shoes I don't believe its fair to view them the way you do Alex. Not everyone has a great upbringing. The people that raise above a terrible childhood are few and fair between. These people are remarkable to me. Most just follow paths similar to their parents. A lot of this is down to ignorance. Sure you can educate yourself (as my ex has tried to do) but there is a HUGE difference between reading about driving a car and actually driving a car.

 

My ex is a screwed up, messed up soul. She never asked to be that way. She never had a chance. She has tried to build a life outside of the chaos. Sadly she has gone from one bad relationship to another. She has little real friends where she lives.

 

Her apartment is one of the saddest things that I have personally ever seen. No warmth, no character. A couple of photo's in a corner. A shrine in her room with pictures of the virgin Mary. If she doesn't have OCD then she is pretty close. Didn't like it when a carpet was even slightly out of place or a kitchen cupboard door left open.

 

She has spend more thanksgivings and Christmas's alone and by herself then any person should. Yet she still sends money home to her family. Personally I think she has suffered enough. She seems happy now, I just pray someone it lasts, even though I know that is simply impossible.

 

I tried so hard to first be the guy that made her happy and then be the guy that 'opened her eyes'. Honestly I would give anything to see her happy. Being angry and bitter at her what does it achieve?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mack05

[AlexDP]

She is out of my life. The pity? Cause I have never been a scared *****less 7 year old kid lying awake in my bed not knowing if one of my fathers friends would come in and do god knows what to me. I have never been abused physically and emotionally by a drunken father. Now you think she has made it up. I don't believe that for a second. It explains well, everything really.

 

Unless you walk in someones shoes I don't believe its fair to view them the way you do Alex. Not everyone has a great upbringing. The people that raise above a terrible childhood are few and fair between. These people are remarkable to me. Most just follow paths similar to their parents. A lot of this is down to ignorance. Sure you can educate yourself (as my ex has tried to do) but there is a HUGE difference between reading about driving a car and actually driving a car.

 

You have child soldiers who go on to live productive lives. I personally know someone who had a drunk for a father, was heavily abused and turned out fine.

 

In saying that you made me think of something:

 

"In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.

 

“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”

He didn’t say any more, but we’ve always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person, and so it came about that in college I was unjustly accused of being a politician, because I was privy to the secret griefs of wild, unknown men. Most of the confidences were unsought — frequently I have feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon; for the intimate revelations of young men, or at least the terms in which they express them, are usually plagiaristic and marred by obvious suppressions. Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope. I am still a little afraid of missing something if I forget that, as my father snobbishly suggested, and I snobbishly repeat, a sense of the fundamental decencies is parcelled out unequally at birth.

 

And, after boasting this way of my tolerance, I come to the admission that it has a limit. Conduct may be founded on the hard rock or the wet marshes, but after a certain point I don’t care what it’s founded on."

 

One of the best books ever written.

[J_L_C]

Yes. In fact, this is pretty much a well known fact. People with BPD lie. Constantly. About everything.

 

We make excuses for them and say it's a disorder, but they lie. And they know they lie. We know they lie.

 

What a generalization. Do you know me? You're calling me a liar simply because I have BPD? Get a life.