Borderline Personality Disorder?

[StrangeBehaviors]

If there is no splitting in the beginning/seduction phase of a relationship with them, it makes one think they are in control of the bad behaviors associated with BPD.

 

And if they are in control of said behavior, does that just make them another version of a "bad" person?

 

Like someone hiding alcoholism, physical violence, hoarding etc. from the start?

 

Doing it to lure in a companion because they know the majority of people would not get involved with them if they were to expose these behaviors from the beginning?

[Downtown]

If they are in control of said behavior, does that just make them another version of a "bad" person? ...Doing it to lure in a companion ...?

My experience is that, no, BPDers typically are NOT like that. Unlike narcissists and sociopaths, BPDers are capable of genuinely loving and caring about others (albeit in an immature way if they've not been in treatment). Of course, nearly all of us will tend to mirror another's personality to some extent when we are infatuated with them -- trying to make a favorable impression.

 

BPDers do this mirroring more intensely not because they are trying to "lure in a companion" but, rather, because they have such a weak sense of self that they rely on that other person to ground and center their self image. Moreover, because the BPDers are even more infatuated than their lovers, both parties usually are convinced they have met their "soul mate."

[StrangeBehaviors]

My experience is that, no, BPDers typically are NOT like that. Unlike narcissists and sociopaths, BPDers are capable of genuinely loving and caring about others (albeit in an immature way if they've not been in treatment). Of course, nearly all of us will tend to mirror another's personality to some extent when we are infatuated with them -- trying to make a favorable impression.

 

BPDers do this mirroring more intensely not because they are trying to "lure in a companion" but, rather, because they have such a weak sense of self that they rely on that other person to ground and center their self image. Moreover, because the BPDers are even more infatuated than their lovers, both parties usually are convinced they have met their "soul mate."

 

Thanks. But to may ask in a different way:

 

Why do BPD'ers not devalue in the beginning?

 

It's kind of established that they idealize and devalue. If they have no control over it, then it would seem statistically that half the time they would come off as a jerk or b!tch right out of the gate ending any relationship quickly.

 

However, that doesn't seem to be the pattern.

 

It's always idealize first.

[Downtown]

Why do BPD'ers not devalue in the beginning?

Good question, Strange. The short answer is that there usually is simply no reason for them to do so. Unlike bipolar sufferers, BPDers mood changes are not caused by a chemical change sweeping through their bodies. Rather, the change to devaluing a loved one is triggered by an event posing a threat to one of their two great fears.

 

The longer answer, I believe, is different for high functioning (HF) and low functioning (LF) BPDers. The vast majority of BPDers are HF and thus generally interact very well with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers because NONE of those folks pose a threat. There is no close LTR that can be abandoned and no intimacy that can cause engulfment. Hence, HF BPDers would come out of the gate being friendly -- not devaluing -- when you initially meet them.

 

Of course, once you start drawing close to them, you eventually will trigger both those fears, causing the devaluation to occur. Before that happens, however, you likely will have 3 to 6 months of bliss and adoration -- because the BPDer's two fears are held at bay by her infatuation over you. That is, she really does believe you are the near-perfect man who has come to save her. Thus, during infatuation, a BPDer does not fear you abandoning her. Nor does she feel suffocated and engulfed by the intimacy.

 

As to the LF BPDers, they have so much pain and suffering that they may start devaluing a new acquaintance on first meeting him. They are very vulnerable and easily offended. As a result, it is unlikely you would be dating a LF BPDer for very long, much less marrying her. The dysfunction and suffering likely would be too apparent. The result is that devaluation could come first with a LF BPDer.

[LoveTKO]

I have a sibling with this toxic condition and I have completely repudiated said sibling. Manipulative, moody, a trash talker, back stabber, worships someone one day and vilifies them a week later, user, everything revolves around "how it makes me feel", dramatic, a splitter (pits family members against each other), hypochondriac, gravitates towards unstable and toxic relationships but expects friends and family to bail them out and listen to hours of useless drivel......oh, did I mention manipulative?

 

They are extremely toxic and emotional, and don't contribute much to society. Always looking for a freebee because you owe them.

[It's Just Me]

I have a parent who I believe has this as well.

 

1. Creates conflict everywhere she goes. If there's no drama going on, she's not happy.

2. Has never been able to hold down a job for longer than two months (see above).

3. Has only one friend, whom she constantly 'breaks up' with and reconciles with.

4. Serious alcoholism.

5. The world owes her everything.

6. Nothing is ever her fault - it's everyone else who's facked in the head.

7. Takes full credit for everyone's accomplishments. They were all her idea, you see.

8. Everything is all about her, and her feelings. She is completely incapable of empathy.

9. Complete disrespect for boundaries.

10. Copies the likes, interests/hobbies and possessions of everyone around her. Has not had an original thought in the 47 years that I have known her.

11. Extremely manipulative and disrespectful if something doesn't go her way.

 

I could go on and on, but - it's pretty clear. Three years ago, I read her the riot act on the drinking part, and cut her out of my life completely. Only saw her at Christmas dinners after that, and I treated her like a coworker when I saw her - I was cheerful and pleasant, but did not engage her in any meaningful conversations. Last year, she created such a scene that everyone was aghast, and I'm not sure that anyone wants to host it this year.

 

No suicide threats yet, but I'm the only one who has given her the boot - my siblings are just now actively noticing these issues. I don't doubt for a second that she'd fake an attempt if everyone dropped her, just to be the centre of attention and to garner sympathy. It's THAT bad.

[StrangeBehaviors]

Reading all of this and the links provided, it would seem that a "High Functioning" Borderline would be the worst.

 

Why? Because they have it masked to the point where one would constantly be questioning their own intuition & experience about the HFB.

 

Whereas a "Low Functioning" Borderline is just kind of out there with more blatant manipulation and erratic behaviors.

[LoveTKO]

I have a parent who I believe has this as well.

 

1. Creates conflict everywhere she goes. If there's no drama going on, she's not happy.

2. Has never been able to hold down a job for longer than two months (see above).

3. Has only one friend, whom she constantly 'breaks up' with and reconciles with.

4. Serious alcoholism.

5. The world owes her everything.

6. Nothing is ever her fault - it's everyone else who's facked in the head.

7. Takes full credit for everyone's accomplishments. They were all her idea, you see.

8. Everything is all about her, and her feelings. She is completely incapable of empathy.

9. Complete disrespect for boundaries.

10. Copies the likes, interests/hobbies and possessions of everyone around her. Has not had an original thought in the 47 years that I have known her.

11. Extremely manipulative and disrespectful if something doesn't go her way.

 

I could go on and on, but - it's pretty clear. Three years ago, I read her the riot act on the drinking part, and cut her out of my life completely. Only saw her at Christmas dinners after that, and I treated her like a coworker when I saw her - I was cheerful and pleasant, but did not engage her in any meaningful conversations. Last year, she created such a scene that everyone was aghast, and I'm not sure that anyone wants to host it this year.

 

No suicide threats yet, but I'm the only one who has given her the boot - my siblings are just now actively noticing these issues. I don't doubt for a second that she'd fake an attempt if everyone dropped her, just to be the centre of attention and to garner sympathy. It's THAT bad.

 

 

 

Wow!....these trait sound very familiar, especially the part about lacking empathy which I think is a recurring theme. They act very emotional when witnessing someone else suffering some hardship or loss; however, they're not really feeling any empathy towards the victim. Instead, it's all about "I can't imagine what I would do if that ever happened to me", and then proceed to lament about how anxious and depressed it makes them feel. It's all about them.

 

And what really gets me is their penchant for confabulating events and experiences. Making up stories that never really happened just to garner attention.

[It's Just Me]

And what really gets me is their penchant for confabulating events and experiences. Making up stories that never really happened just to garner attention.

 

YES! Forgot to include that. Complete exaggeration and twisting of facts! Making sh*t up that never happened! So bizarre. I hate that this twisted piece of humanity is my mother. My only positive female role models growing up were her sisters (my aunts) and I adore them. This sticks in her craw like you wouldn't believe, and she BLAMES THEM for turning me against her - meanwhile, they've never said a thing. My walking away was no small feat, but I was never coached by anyone.

 

Feels good to unload about this. Thanks for the opportunity.

[Downtown]

The data from my claim can be found at time 09:30 in the video....The data shows that treatment as a couple has a roughly 10 times higher success rate.

Heart, the authority you are citing is Yukio Isizuka, a Japanese psychiatrist who relocated to the USA and started selling videos and books that he himself produces. At his website, $45 will buy you a video called "How To Cure Borderline Personality Disorder in 6 Months." See MyLifeTrack.com. For the same price, you can buy another video promising to teach you "How To Cure Depression Without Drugs in 6 Months or Less." None of these bold claims is supported by any published results in peer-reviewed journals (not that I could find anyway). If you believe his bold claims, I've got some swamp land in Florida I would like to sell you.

 

Significantly, the prevailing view of psychiatrists and psychologists is that there is no known cure for BPD. Such a statement is made, for example, by the Univ. of Michigan Health System at Borderline Personality Disorder. Similarly, the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) cautiously observes, "Current research suggests psychotherapy can relieve some symptoms, but further studies are needed to better understand how well psychotherapy works." Of course, given the level of skepticism apparent in its term "suggests," NIMH does not even mention the possibility of a cure. See NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder.

What I meant to say was that people with BPD feel like they can't control how they behave, i.e. their feelings and the anger/rage that results from those feelings.

Regardless of what they "feel like," they are able to control their behavior when they want to do so. Of course, if the spouse continues to walk on eggshells around a BPDer, this enabling behavior will encourage that BPDer to keep behaving like a spoiled four year old. I nonetheless would agree that, because BPDers lack emotional development, it is much harder for them to manage their emotions and control their behavior. There is a world of difference, however, between saying such control is "much more difficult" and "something they cannot do."

Yes, but they can only control it with successful therapy.

Again, they can control their behavior when they have an incentive to do so. Otherwise, you are giving them a free pass to behave however badly they want -- as long as they stay out of therapy. I strongly disagree with that view. Even four year old children are able to control their behavior without going to therapy. But, to achieve that result, you must allow them to suffer the logical consequences of their behavior so they have an incentive to improve. Edited September 6, 2012 by Downtown

[StrangeBehaviors]

Downtown or anyone else. Borderlines have been characterized as seeing their children as "Need Gratifying Objects."

 

What does this mean?

[Downtown]

Borderlines have been characterized as seeing their children as "Need Gratifying Objects." What does this mean?

Strange, the statement likely is referring to the 1994 New Jersey study finding that

...mothers of borderlines tended to conceive of their children egocentrically, as need-gratifying objects, rather than as individuals with distinct and evolving personalities.

See

Maternal empathy, family chaos, and th... [J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

.

IMO, the study is not very robust because the sample size is only 26 (13 BPDers and 13 controls). But it does support the general view that BPDers, although able to love, do so in a limited, immature way unless they've been treated for many years. At BPDfamily, a member describes this in the following way:

When the kids are young, this [egocentricity] is more satisfying, as she hugs them, kisses them, sleeps with them, giving them a sense of being loved and close. But as they get older, they have more needs for autonomy and being treated like people. And then, it becomes more obvious that mom is not there for them, but for herself. When there is a conflict between the kids' needs and mom's needs, mom's needs always win. It then becomes clear that there are limits on mom's ability to love.

See

PERSPECTIVES: How do we know if we love our BPD parents?

.

Although BPDer mothers have an impaired ability to love, they nonetheless are capable of loving their children deeply. But, as is true of young children, a BPDer's statement of "I love you" largely means "I desperately need you to love me." Even so, it is real love and can be very intense.

 

In contrast, NPDers and sociopaths cannot love. These latter two groups, then, are far more likely to see other people as objects which are tossed aside when they are no longer useful. I therefore associate "need gratifying objects" far more strongly with those groups of people. This, at least, is my experience and my understanding.

[William]

As an advisory, any commercial link posted runs the risk of being auto-moderated. This is to reduce spamming of the forums by advertisers. 'Posts' include both original postings as well as quotes of postings. The software makes no delineation.

 

Most auto-moderated posts, if compliant, are approved within 1-12 hours. I'm generally the moderator handling moderated postings so, if I miss one, a quick PM with 'Auto-moderated post' in the title and a link to the thread will remind me. Thanks.

Edited September 8, 2012 by William
Clarify

[StrangeBehaviors]

As an advisory, any commercial link posted runs the risk of being auto-moderated. This is to reduce spamming of the forums by advertisers.

 

Most auto-moderated posts, if compliant, are approved within 1-12 hours. I'm generally the moderator handling moderated postings so, if I miss one, a quick PM with 'Auto-moderated post' in the title and a link to the thread will remind me. Thanks.

 

 

Thank you.

[StrangeBehaviors]

Downtown, thanks. At this point, I'm on the fence about whether they are truly capable of "love" such as sacrificing for the sake of another. Such as loving the child enough to hurt or do without for the sake of the child.

 

In short, I'm leaning towards they do not "love". The only love how things make them feel.

Edited September 8, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Remove quote

[Downtown]

I'm leaning towards they do not "love". They only love how things make them feel.

Strange, please keep in mind that BPD (like the other PDs) usually is accompanied by one or two other personality disorders. A recent large scale study (pub. 2008) found, for example, that 39% of BPDers also suffer from full blown NPD. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.

 

Hence, if your friend's GF truly is incapable of loving, it would indicate she has strong traits of NPD or AsPD. My point, then, is not that she must be capable of loving. Rather, I am only saying that BPD -- by itself -- does not imply the inability to love. Being "unable to love" is not a BPD trait.

[J_L_C]

If you have BPD, or know someone with BPD, I'd love to get a discussion started on here about it.

 

I was diagnosed less than 2 years ago. This was tough because I'm in my 30's and always knew something was up, but didn't have a word for it until now.

 

Do any of you struggle with abandonment? Rejection?

 

Also, do you any of you constantly worry about things and then think, think and over-think them to the point where you are exhausted?

 

Do you think things through SO MUCH that they become a reality in your mind even if they really aren't?

[Emilia]

It will be interesting to see if you get many responses from BPDs, be prepared that you could get a few posts here from upset ex partners of BPD sufferers.

 

One of my exes has BPD, we had a 'conversation' last Sunday. Me trying to get him seek therapy, him getting angrier by the minute. I think he might just do something about it though.

 

He struggles with fear of abandonment very much, with feelings of shame, anxiety, definitely over-analysis and distorted reality/cognition.

 

My question to you OP: do you find that sometimes people manage to get through to you with what they want you to understand or do your fears and anxiety rule your emotions so much that your focus is purely on those feelings?

[dirtysweet]

are you referring to bipolar or borderline? because I am bipolar.

[Emilia]

are you referring to bipolar or borderline? because I am bipolar.

 

Me? Borderline, bipolar can be a comorbid condition but my reference is primarily to BPD. The two can go hand in hand however.

[J_L_C]

He struggles with fear of abandonment very much, with feelings of shame, anxiety, definitely over-analysis and distorted reality/cognition.

 

My question to you OP: do you find that sometimes people manage to get through to you with what they want you to understand or do your fears and anxiety rule your emotions so much that your focus is purely on those feelings?

 

It really depends on the circumstances such as WHO I am dealing with (a lot of my own issues are with family, boyfriends and authority figures). I can separate things when it comes to my professional life or handling situstions that may not directly influence me personally. But if it DOES directly relate to me I OFTEN misconstrue things. I may internalize something and spin it 100 different ways (e.g, what did he mean when he said that? Maybe it was this or maybe it was that? But Omg, what if it was THIS instead?). It can be exhausting in my own head. Oftentimes this will lead to question the other person directly and it can be overbearing and offensive for them when I NEVER intend things to come across the way they do.

 

This is why it's very difficult to separate my feelings/emotions from actually being able to see things as they are. Depending on a persons specific areas of difficulty (I.e, anger issues, abandonment, impulsivity control), it can truly manifest itself in so many ways. Example: I cannot seem to keep a long term bf because of my trust/abandonment issues. No matter what he tells me I ALWAYS question his intentions. Is he cheating? Who is he really with when he says he's out with coworkers? Does he really love me? He's going to leave me! It's a prison inside my head much of the time. But like I said, my professional life is fine because it's more objective than personalized if that makes sense. Oh and I'm really good at giving friends advice or opinions on things because it doesn't directly affect me and therefore not left up for personal struggle/debate.

[Emilia]

Thank you for the post, very good explanation and along the lines of what I expected. 'Luckily' (if luck can be associated with personality disorders I suppose) you seem to be a high functioning BPD sufferer, ie you are able to hold down a job, deal with anything that doesn't affect your closest relationships.

 

It's interesting that you mention authority figures, my ex is in the Army and he got kicked out of officer training I think probably for the same reasons. When he gets angry with me he calls me patronising and condescending, nothing worse really. When I try to tell him that I disagree with how he is handling something he accuses me of treating him like a child.

 

Have any of your boyfriends been able to influence your anxieties and abandonment fears in a positive way? Have they ever managed to get through to you to at least some degree or is it always just the outsiders that do? Have members of your family been ever able to soothe your fears?

 

I understand how your emotions affect your cognition I think (it happens to all of us to a degree, BPD is just a much stronger version of it). Have you heard of this book Don't Let Your Emotions Run Your Life New Harbinger Self-Help Workbook: Amazon.co.uk: Scott E. Spradlin: Books This is the one I want my ex to read.

[Downtown]

I can separate things when it comes to my professional life or handling situstions that may not directly influence me personally. But if it DOES directly relate to me I OFTEN misconstrue things.

JLC, I agree with Emelia that you are describing yourself as high functioning (which is the case for the vast majority of BPDers). The reason that you do so well around busiess associates, casual friends, and total strangers is that none of those folks pose a threat to your two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Specifically, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment.

 

As soon as one of them draws close to you, however, they will pose a threat. The result will be that you will go through a cycle of push-him-away (when feeling engulfed) and pull-him-back (when feeling abandoned). Most men will tolerate that cycle for perhaps a year if they are emotionally healthy. Then they will walk, if not sooner.

 

The ones who will stay longer are the codependent caregivers (like me) and the narcissists (as your Ex seems to be in your descriptions of him). We caregivers will stay for years because we are mistakenly convinced that, if we can only figure out what we are doing wrong, we can fix things.

 

The narcissists may stay for years for two reasons. One is that they love the "narcissistic supply" (i.e., the adoration) you provide them when splitting them white. The second reason is that, because narcissists cannot tolerate sustained initimacy and closeness, they need the mini-vacations from intimacy that you provide every time you split them black and push them away. This, at least, is my understanding of it, JLC. I was married for 15 years to a BPDer.

[Emilia]

Specifically, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment.

 

As soon as one of them draws close to you, however, they will pose a threat. The result will be that you will go through a cycle of push-him-away (when feeling engulfed) and pull-him-back (when feeling abandoned).

 

Does the feeling of engulfment come from the fear of intimacy directly?

 

Nice to see you on LS again by the way

[Mack05]

JLC, I agree with Emelia that you are describing yourself as high functioning (which is the case for the vast majority of BPDers). The reason that you do so well around busiess associates, casual friends, and total strangers is that none of those folks pose a threat to your two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Specifically, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment.

 

As soon as one of them draws close to you, however, they will pose a threat. The result will be that you will go through a cycle of push-him-away (when feeling engulfed) and pull-him-back (when feeling abandoned). Most men will tolerate that cycle for perhaps a year if they are emotionally healthy. Then they will walk, if not sooner.

 

The ones who will stay longer are the codependent caregivers (like me) and the narcissists (as your Ex seems to be in your descriptions of him). We caregivers will stay for years because we are mistakenly convinced that, if we can only figure out what we are doing wrong, we can fix things.

 

The narcissists may stay for years for two reasons. One is that they love the "narcissistic supply" (i.e., the adoration) you provide them when splitting them white. The second reason is that, because narcissists cannot tolerate sustained initimacy and closeness, they need the mini-vacations from intimacy that you provide every time you split them black and push them away. This, at least, is my understanding of it, JLC. I was married for 15 years to a BPDer.

 

Downtown great post as always. Perfect description of BPD relationship(s) IMO. Good to see you back.

 

JLC for you to even admit that you have BPD is the most enormous step forward. You won't find many BPD sufferers reply on this thread, because they rarely can admit this (that they may potentially have BPD) to themselves for a multitude of different reasons. My last ex is a BPD sufferer. It was a nightmare experience to go through. I was the codependent, her ex before that the narcissist.

 

Those who can't admit to themselves simply never learn. They repeat the same negative patterns, the same cycles (first hope, then happiness, eventually followed by sadness, vicious anger, blame shifting, projecting, gaslighting and ultimately playing the bitter victim). Rinse, lather, repeat.

 

By admitting you have BPD you have taken the first step to truly setting yourself free. For that I applaud your courage and wish you well for the future.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Mack05