Borderline Personality Disorder?

[Downtown]

I have just recently began looking into borderline personality disorder and realized as a psychology major that I absolutely have it.

Perhaps so, Bubs. Yet, before jumping to conclusions, please keep in mind that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all exhibit the traits to some degree. Indeed, having the nine traits at a low level is a good thing because they are essential to our survival and thus arise out of the primitive ego defenses we acquire in early childhood.

 

At issue, then, is not whether you have BPD traits. Of course you do. We all do. Rather, the issue is whether you have most of them at a strong and persistent level. If so, they will will produce intense feelings that distort your perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Yet, if that is the case, it is very unlikely you would have the self awareness to see your own BPD traits. Although you will meet a number of self-aware BPDers here on TAM, such folks are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life.

[BUBS]

Perhaps so, Bubs. Yet, before jumping to conclusions, please keep in mind that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all exhibit the traits to some degree. Indeed, having the nine traits at a low level is a good thing because they are essential to our survival and thus arise out of the primitive ego defenses we acquire in early childhood.

 

At issue, then, is not whether you have BPD traits. Of course you do. We all do. Rather, the issue is whether you have most of them at a strong and persistent level. If so, they will will produce intense feelings that distort your perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Yet, if that is the case, it is very unlikely you would have the self awareness to see your own BPD traits. Although you will meet a number of self-aware BPDers here on TAM, such folks are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life.

 

 

I'm doing my best to look into this with as much detail as possible. While many of the posters here that describe their ex's seem to have different opinions on the symptoms than what is actually described as the symptoms on other websites, from what I have gathered outside of this site it is the closest description to what I seem to be going through and have been for as long as I can remember. Of course you may be right, all of the symptoms are completely normal to experience in the human condition regularly throughout life's events, I do believe that I experience them on a much more persistent and unjustified level, especially in my relationships. The abandonment issues, the black and white thinking, the irrational and impulsive behavior... crazy highs and manic lows. I am always deeply affected by rejection, on a level that many have mentioned isn't healthy and seems to last much longer than others.

 

One of the things I noticed in my research involving this that seems to fit the bill entirely is that subjects with BPD resurface and rehash old wounds repeatedly making it difficult for them to cope or come to terms with traumatic events, and also those with bpd also tend to have a problem with making a small issue into something that is crippling for them. Perhaps I am too analytic and I just acknowledge the wrongdoing of others on such a deep rooted level that I am always constantly burdened and untrusting... but I feel that there are bigger problems existing. At first I blamed my break up on it, but the reality is that I've always struggled throughout my relationships with all of the factors describing BPD with the exception of the promiscuity and cheating traits that some seem to bring up on this site.

 

I tend to feel emotions much more deeply and for longer periods of time than others. You mentioned that you found it rare that those with bpd would be able to acknowledge their actions, however it does say in many of the sites that those who experience bpd tend to feel a great deal of shame, humiliation, self-loathing,a lack of identity, rage, and empathy to an unhealthy degree... which is probably deeper rooted to someone being too aware of their issues, but unable to control them.

 

The main thing with bpd is feelings of extreme emotions; destructiveness or self-destructiveness; feeling fragmented or lacking identity; and feelings of victimization... which I feel pretty continuously in my life especially the lack of identity and always feeling victimized.

 

In relationships it says those who suffer with bpd experience extreme emotions, where when the significant other provides them with positive reinforcing kindness, a BPD sufferer will experience intense joy, love and passion for that person beyond what is perceived to be normal, whereas if the subject feels negativity from their spouse, the same extreme emotions will be attributed except in the opposite affect.

 

Again all of this seems describe human nature in general, so it is difficult to tell whether I fall into this category or am just reacting the way a normal person would to the situations I've dealt with. Unfortunately without health insurance and years of therapy for them to be able to attribute whether my experiences reacting and acting this way are justified (i.e- not having bpd and having a reason) or unjustified (having bpd)

[BUBS]

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships,

self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood

and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (5) or more of

the following:

 

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. NOTE: Do

not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

 

2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships

characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

 

3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image

or sense of self

 

4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging

(e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).

NOTE: Do not include suicidal or self-mutiliating behavior covered in

Criterion 5.

 

5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or

self-mutilating behavior

 

6. affect instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense

episodic dysphoria [unpleasant mood], irritability, or anxiety usually

lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

 

7. chronic feelings of emptiness

 

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g.,

frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

 

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative

symptoms [i.e., the affect does not match the emotional tone, etc.]

 

Please note that Borderline organization is a continuum...some people have

Borderline traits, others a Borderline Personality Disorder...and there are

a full spectrum of behaviors and intensities...there are "high functioning

Borderlines" whose symptoms may be very subtle...there are "full blown

Borderlines" who match all or most of the criteria in there full intensity.

 

 

Of these, I have all of them on a persistent and uncontrollable level with the exception of self mutilation or suicidal tendency's

[Emilia]

Again all of this seems describe human nature in general, so it is difficult to tell whether I fall into this category or am just reacting the way a normal person would to the situations I've dealt with. Unfortunately without health insurance and years of therapy for them to be able to attribute whether my experiences reacting and acting this way are justified (i.e- not having bpd and having a reason) or unjustified (having bpd)

 

The issue is cognition. The reason why BPD sufferers are usually unaware of their behaviour is that they don't realise how much their feelings and emotions affect their thinking process. Not always, my ex would sometimes apologise when I pointed something out to him, however this would get rarer and rarer as he convinced himself that I was the devil's incarnate.

[AlexDP]

Yes we have all experienced this, it is why reactions of former partners of BPD sufferers can be so strong, hence my warning to the original poster in my first post on the thread

 

Reactions are usually strongest when people are completely out of the fog and able to see things from a distance. This is also why there are many psychiatrists who have no pity towards BPD "sufferers" whatsoever.

 

It's easier to see it as a disorder and it's easier to feel pity for them. In the end, he or she was just an immature jerk. And it's because everyone around them has been walking on eggshells all these years that they never got a chance to develop.

 

People with BPD should just be ignored.

 

Also, OP, it's unlikely that you have BPD, if you recognise yourself in the diagnosis.

[AlexDP]

Perhaps so, Bubs. Yet, before jumping to conclusions, please keep in mind that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all exhibit the traits to some degree. Indeed, having the nine traits at a low level is a good thing because they are essential to our survival and thus arise out of the primitive ego defenses we acquire in early childhood.

.

 

Do you ever think that maybe we went a bit overboard with the personality disorders? I mean, none of them is particularly strong.. Maybe, maybe antisocial personality disorder is real.

[carhill]

If one has ever 'walked on eggshells' with a BPD person, it's really hard to dismiss that something indeed is out of balance. My customary example of the one who's dry-humping me one night and yelling at me the next day for no reason is classic. I'm not even married to her (someone else is), so am the relatively 'safe' friend. Sometimes those behaviors can exist within minutes, not hours. I've cared for a mentally ill person who talked to hallucinations. I know, cognitively, that it's not about me. Still, emotionally, the 'crazy-making' behaviors get to me. It's only the skills learned from active caregiving that keep me sane long-term in such dynamics. Otherwise, I'd be gone. I don't know how spouses stay married in such circumstances. No way I could. Life's too short. God bless 'em but yowza, enough is enough.

[BUBS]

Reactions are usually strongest when people are completely out of the fog and able to see things from a distance. This is also why there are many psychiatrists who have no pity towards BPD "sufferers" whatsoever.

 

It's easier to see it as a disorder and it's easier to feel pity for them. In the end, he or she was just an immature jerk. And it's because everyone around them has been walking on eggshells all these years that they never got a chance to develop.

 

People with BPD should just be ignored.

 

Also, OP, it's unlikely that you have BPD, if you recognise yourself in the diagnosis.

 

 

A cycle often begins in which people with BPD feel emotional pain, engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve that pain, feel shame and guilt over their actions, feel emotional pain from the shame and guilt, and then experience stronger urges to engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve the new pain.[18] As time goes on, impulsive behaviors can become an automatic response to emotional pain.

 

With this being said, of all of the places I've researched while some mention a detachment or zoning out in attempt to dissociate themselves from the pain, none say that there is a lack of ability to recognize the issues... as a matter of fact every single site I've been to has stated quite the opposite, that many that suffer from BPD actually thrash out and experience a great deal of their symptoms because of the guilt they feel for their actions and acknowledgement of a lack of control in those actions.

 

With this being said BPD is a coping based disease as well is cognitive, as most of the studies conducted have concluded anywhere from 50-70% remission with 2-6 years of psycho therapy and cognitive coping therapy... with only 5.6% reporting having gone back to initial symptoms despite coping strategies. What this means is that people with BPD don't need to be ignored at all, its quite the opposite, they need to be taught proper coping mechanisms to alleviate symptoms, not left to their own devices.

 

Many are focusing on children who undergo traumatic events to teach coping skills, because many are aware that unless taught at an adolescent age how to properly cope or handle situations in trauma or stress, that most adults will have a very slim chance of being able to retrain their habits to actually cope.

 

Also there are many different sub-categories to borderline personality disorder, some range from negativity and aggression while others are sensitivity and vulnerability. From what I know about this, immature jerk may not be exactly the right way to define the reactions of a subjects bpd... this is a disorder that is characterized by many things out of a subjects control - people with BPD show brain abnormalities and abnormalities in neuro-biological factors.

[carhill]

Seriously, has anyone who interfaces with a mentally ill person ever tried to talk with them about their disease in a reasonable and calm fashion? How did that go? I have and will be happy to share the various anecdotes. IMO, such conversations are best left to a clinical setting and with a disinterested third party.

 

BTW, the person in my prior anecdote refuses to even see a 'brain' doctor for her cocktail for BP2, rather sees her GP. Psychologists are 'stupid'. Psychiatrists are worse (unprintable). Her latest kick is 'herbal' so she may be unmedicated part/most of the time.

 

In another anecdote, the person simply didn't believe me when I explained to her that there weren't people (she used various racial slurs to describe them) watching her undress through the air conditioning vents and that there weren't demons (her word) in the pills I was giving her. I ended up putting some meds in food and prayed the food would be eaten.

 

My exW used to relate that she'd get a 'stomach ache' around both people. Perhaps she was the smart one. She got out. One case where little/no empathy was a positive force. Good on her.

[Mack05]

Guys have any of you seen a BPD sufferer twist it around, so that they TRULY believe that you are problem? Example below..

 

You have been gaslighting from the beginning. It's when someone relieves themselves of guilt by twisting the reality of the situation which in turn causes the victim to doubt their own perceptions.

 

Basically everything you accuse them of, the reword it and throw it back at you!! I would love a BPD sufferer to explain the pure and utter 'craziness' behind this...

[carhill]

The really interesting aspect is the sly smile when they see it's worked. Such is why locked institutions exist.

[M30USA]

And it's because everyone around them has been walking on eggshells all these years that they never got a chance to develop.

 

BINGO.

 

What I saw with my ex's family is that they used the "family first" mantra as a way of convincing themselves they were doing the right thing. Her dad even once told me that, if she lost 100 keys, that I should replace them 100 times for her. While this behavior of losing things doesn't directly tie into BPD, I'm using it as an example of their approach to BPD: no matter what their daughter does, take her side, tell her she is ok, and that they will do whatever she needs. In my opinion, they are at least partly to blame for the development of her BPD.

[Downtown]

I've always struggled throughout my relationships with all of the factors describing BPD with the exception of the promiscuity and cheating traits that some seem to bring up on this site.

Bubs, neither promiscuity nor cheating is a basic trait of BPD. Rather, impulsiveness is -- and it may manifest itself in any of a number of ways, e.g., as reckless behavior in eating, spending, gambling, risky sex, or promiscuity.

None say that there is a lack of ability to recognize the issues... as a matter of fact every single site I've been to has stated quite the opposite....

Generally, narcissists are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they really believe that their false self image is true. In contrast, BPDers don't know who they are but they generally are well aware that the false self image they project is false. Indeed, they typically are so well aware of that fact that they feel "fake" and fear being discovered. In this way, they have a vague awareness that something is very wrong with them. In this sense, then, I would agree that BPDers (especially the low functioning ones) are aware that something is wrong.

 

Yet, if your statement (that BPDers can "recognize the issues") is meant to imply that they can engage in a rational discussion of the day-to-day issues every married couple must confront, I would strongly disagree. As Emilia explains above, BPDers have such intense feelings that their perceptions of other peoples' intentions are seriously distorted -- which is why BPD is often described as a "thought distortion."

 

On top of that distortion, BPDers also must contend with the false projections that are created by their subconscious mind (which is dutifully trying to protect the conscious mind from seeing too much of reality). Because the projections originate entirely in the subconscious, BPDers usually are absolutely convinced that the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths are true. For these reasons, I don't think your statement -- about BPDers being able to "recognize the issues" -- is a good choice of words.

[J_L_C]

See, I wouldn't wish schizophrenia on my worst enemy. BPD? They do it to themselves, time and time again. They deserve every bit of it.

 

And unless we face that reality, we are just going to let personality disorders grow. BPD doesn't start with a mother abandoning her child. It starts with a mother pampering it.

 

People with schizophrenia can't help themselves. People with BPD can, but blatantly refuse to do so. They should be held accountable. No pity whatsoever.

 

As an individual WITH BPD, this is extremely igornorant to say. For years and years, I knew there was something 'wrong' with me. It wasn't until I was nearly 30 when I was finally diagnosed. There were things that upset me, things that set me off, and things that I internalized in such different ways compared to the average person, but never understood why. I'd been on medications and through a variety of treatment programs. When I finally received the label, it helped me to understand what I'd been going through. I read about the disorder and tried to learn everything I could to better understand myself.

 

Do you think I CHOOSE to feel a swing of emotions based on the smallest of things? IT JUST HAPPENS! Do you think I CHOOSE to fear abandonment concerns by everyone who is close to me? IT IS ALWAYS THERE. I am a well-educated, well liked person among my family and my friends, and these parts of my personality are overwhelming, yet I DO TRY. I have been through a year-long DBT program and though it has helped in small ways, there is no one 'fix-all' method. It is not all within one's control. Unless you have it, and understand the ways in which the aspects of this disorder just overwhelm a person, please do not throw out such absurd accusations. No wonder 1 in 3 individuals suffering from mental illness do so in SILENCE. The stigma, attitudes and assumptions out there are atrocious.

[J_L_C]

So if you know one thing about people with BPD, what is it? That they tell the truth?

 

She told you. It's a 99% chance that she lied. I really wouldn't base my beliefs on the odd chance that she told the truth. She says her father is an abusive drunk, but he could just as well be an angel.

 

I'm not saying you should be bitter about her. You should never be bitter. But it's not a disease. It's barely a disorder. It's just some girl with an entitlement complex who never figured out that the world didn't resolve around her. At some point, people should just tell people with BPD: hey, guess what? Go **** yourself.

 

If we all did that, and in fact there are therapists who do just that, BPD would disappear.

 

So BPD'ers are LIARS? Wow, you really need to educate yourself on the disorder...and it IS a disorder. Read about it on the DSM (I was a psychology major and this is the diagnostic measure used).

 

It sounds like you've had a negative experience with someone who has BPD and it seems as though you've created such a BLACK AND WHITE judgement of people with the DISORDER.

 

People who have issues dealing with 'the world revolving around themselves' are typically dealing more with aspects of narcissism than BPD.

 

You sound very mature to suggest that people should just tell individuals with BPD to go and "F***" themselves. Hopefully nothing is 'wrong' with you. I'd hate for something to tell YOU where to go...

[J_L_C]

What I found highly interesting in that previous article I posted by Dr. David Allen is that he frequently saw how BPDers were able to "switch on and off" almost all of their behaviors AT WILL. In his professional opinion--and he admits he differs from mainstream psychiatry--he believes that BPDers CHOOSE to behave that way, rather than fall victim to the pathology. If he is correct, then the treatment approach should be completely different than what we currently have; more akin to what Alex has been recommending.

 

Anyone can turn certain things 'On or Off' about themselves. Individuals with BPD struggle with this very thing. It depends on a whole host of factors...first of all, gender, age, specific stressors in particular situations, other individuals in the environment, the degree of intensity/danger/threat the situation or environment provides, influence of drugs and/or alcohol, etc, etc, etc. I can attest to the fact that if I have not been eating properly that day or did not get enough rest, this surely impacts me. If I miss my medication, or have my period, THESE factors affect me more. There is just so much more involved here than people realize. I agree, people CAN choose to react to things in certain ways...even those with BPD. We're all human. But the degree to which one can adjust or just brush something off like dirt off our shoulder, are complicated by things that aren't necessarily problems for the 'average' individual.

[J_L_C]

Orion, if you are correct about her having strong BPD traits, it is unlikely she viewed you as "an object." That's what narcissists and sociopaths do because they are incapable of loving anyone and they have no affective empathy. In contrast, BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits) are capable of loving (albeit in an immature way). They also can have strong affective empathy, i.e., the ability to sense what other people are feeling.

 

What BPDers don't have is emotional stability or a strong sense of who they are. They therefore are very intolerant of uncertainties, mixed feelings, and ambiguities. The result is that they will shoehorn everyone into a black or white box so they know how to deal with them. This is why BPDers tend to categorize everyone as "all good" (with me) or "all bad" (against me). And this is why a BPDer will flip back and forth between loving you and devaluing you.

 

This means that, even though a BPDer may love you deeply, she is incapable (absent years of therapy) of being in touch with that love all the time. Indeed, while she is "splitting you black," a BPDer is only in touch with her dislike or hatred of you -- the loving feelings are split off, i.e., put out of reach of the conscious mind.

 

This is why BPDers are capable of being so hateful and vindictive to the very people they love the most. The irony of this situation is especially apparent in the high functioning BPDers, many of whom are caring and generous all day long to strangers and business associates -- and then will go home to abuse the very people who love them.

 

Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD, if their biographers are to be believed. Reportedly, they were very generous and caring of total strangers but were abusive to the people who loved them. This, at least, is my understanding of BPDers, Orion.

 

THANK YOU FOR THIS POST!!! FINALLY, someone who is educated about the topic and OPEN-MINDED!

 

What most people don't realize is that individuals with BPD don't engage in certain behaviours to target and manipulate others...these behaviours come out as a RESULT of our OWN internal battles...as DOWNTOWN illustrated so well

[J_L_C]

Guys have any of you seen a BPD sufferer twist it around, so that they TRULY believe that you are problem? Example below..

 

Basically everything you accuse them of, the reword it and throw it back at you!! I would love a BPD sufferer to explain the pure and utter 'craziness' behind this...

 

I can definitely shed some light on this because I do it myself. Here's the thing though...I'm not always aware of my tendency to do this while I'm IN the moment. Emotions, stress and frustrations are often at their peak...

It's also not nearly as much to do with the other person involved as it is about ME.

 

For example: there are many, many times when I have issues with authority (e.g., bosses, managers of stores, security guards, older family members) and I believe this stems back to my days as a young one who grew up in a very strict family. They were quite loving but I was often told what I was thinking, how I should do something and what TO do and NOT to do. As I got older, I learned to avoid the restrictive nature of my environment by "pushing the limits" (e.g., I struggled to gain my independence through inappropriate methods because otherwise I had no individuality). I'd get anger, threaten, sulk, manipulate but it was because of MY own frustrations. As I got older, when I'd been told by a superior about HOW I SHOULD be expected to do something, that's when these behaviours poured out of me without fully comprehending why I was acting this way.

 

Any kind of situation where you are involved with a BPD'er "turning the tables"...it's because 'subconsciously' it awakens something within them that just doesn't feel right. Perhaps they can't accept blame for something due to previous feelings of being a failure. Perhaps they can't accept rejection and turn on you in anger because of previous experiences with being made to feel like they weren't important. It all comes down to it being about THEM and their reaction is due to some unresolved/uncomfortable aspect of them which was formed early on. It it's the BPD'ers ineffective coping strategies and how it "justifies" the opposite of how a situation is truly making them feel about themselves.

[AlexDP]

So BPD'ers are LIARS? ..

 

 

Yes. In fact, this is pretty much a well known fact. People with BPD lie. Constantly. About everything.

 

We make excuses for them and say it's a disorder, but they lie. And they know they lie. We know they lie.

[AlexDP]

I can definitely shed some light on this because I do it myself. Here's the thing though...I'm not always aware of my tendency to do this while I'm IN the moment. Emotions, stress and frustrations are often at their peak...

It's also not nearly as much to do with the other person involved as it is about ME.

 

For example: there are many, many times when I have issues with authority (e.g., bosses, managers of stores, security guards, older family members) and I believe this stems back to my days as a young one who grew up in a very strict family. They were quite loving but I was often told what I was thinking, how I should do something and what TO do and NOT to do. As I got older, I learned to avoid the restrictive nature of my environment by "pushing the limits" (e.g., I struggled to gain my independence through inappropriate methods because otherwise I had no individuality). I'd get anger, threaten, sulk, manipulate but it was because of MY own frustrations. As I got older, when I'd been told by a superior about HOW I SHOULD be expected to do something, that's when these behaviours poured out of me without fully comprehending why I was acting this way.

 

Any kind of situation where you are involved with a BPD'er "turning the tables"...it's because 'subconsciously' it awakens something within them that just doesn't feel right. Perhaps they can't accept blame for something due to previous feelings of being a failure. Perhaps they can't accept rejection and turn on you in anger because of previous experiences with being made to feel like they weren't important. It all comes down to it being about THEM and their reaction is due to some unresolved/uncomfortable aspect of them which was formed early on. It it's the BPD'ers ineffective coping strategies and how it "justifies" the opposite of how a situation is truly making them feel about themselves.

 

But it's not you, right? It's the BPD? How's that for taking responsibility? You'll never achieve emotional maturity until you realise that it's YOU.

[AlexDP]

As an individual WITH BPD, this is extremely igornorant to say. For years and years, I knew there was something 'wrong' with me. It wasn't until I was nearly 30 when I was finally diagnosed. There were things that upset me, things that set me off, and things that I internalized in such different ways compared to the average person, but never understood why. I'd been on medications and through a variety of treatment programs. When I finally received the label, it helped me to understand what I'd been going through. I read about the disorder and tried to learn everything I could to better understand myself.

 

Do you think I CHOOSE to feel a swing of emotions based on the smallest of things? IT JUST HAPPENS! Do you think I CHOOSE to fear abandonment concerns by everyone who is close to me? IT IS ALWAYS THERE. I am a well-educated, well liked person among my family and my friends, and these parts of my personality are overwhelming, yet I DO TRY. I have been through a year-long DBT program and though it has helped in small ways, there is no one 'fix-all' method. It is not all within one's control. Unless you have it, and understand the ways in which the aspects of this disorder just overwhelm a person, please do not throw out such absurd accusations. No wonder 1 in 3 individuals suffering from mental illness do so in SILENCE. The stigma, attitudes and assumptions out there are atrocious.

 

I don't care. Do you think I have never felt abandonment?

 

You know how at one point in our lives we all realise "I might be feeling this way, but it could be my perception and reality could be very different"?

 

I realised that 10 years ago. And that's it, you know. If you grow up, you make that realisation and you grow out of your childish behaviour.

 

If, on the other hand, you are always making excuses for your behaviour and you need an instant fix (not really surprising that fast food and sugar cultures have more personality disorders than others), you will never reach maturity.

 

But you go ahead. It's the BPD. It's not you. It's never you.

[Mack05]

I can definitely shed some light on this because I do it myself. Here's the thing though...I'm not always aware of my tendency to do this while I'm IN the moment. Emotions, stress and frustrations are often at their peak...

It's also not nearly as much to do with the other person involved as it is about ME.

 

For example: there are many, many times when I have issues with authority (e.g., bosses, managers of stores, security guards, older family members) and I believe this stems back to my days as a young one who grew up in a very strict family. They were quite loving but I was often told what I was thinking, how I should do something and what TO do and NOT to do. As I got older, I learned to avoid the restrictive nature of my environment by "pushing the limits" (e.g., I struggled to gain my independence through inappropriate methods because otherwise I had no individuality). I'd get anger, threaten, sulk, manipulate but it was because of MY own frustrations. As I got older, when I'd been told by a superior about HOW I SHOULD be expected to do something, that's when these behaviours poured out of me without fully comprehending why I was acting this way.

 

Any kind of situation where you are involved with a BPD'er "turning the tables"...it's because 'subconsciously' it awakens something within them that just doesn't feel right. Perhaps they can't accept blame for something due to previous feelings of being a failure. Perhaps they can't accept rejection and turn on you in anger because of previous experiences with being made to feel like they weren't important. It all comes down to it being about THEM and their reaction is due to some unresolved/uncomfortable aspect of them which was formed early on. It it's the BPD'ers ineffective coping strategies and how it "justifies" the opposite of how a situation is truly making them feel about themselves.

 

That is a great insight. Cheers JLC

[Mack05]

But it's not you, right? It's the BPD? How's that for taking responsibility? You'll never achieve emotional maturity until you realise that it's YOU.

 

I think JLC has taken an enormous step forward to emotional maturity by accepting she has this disorder. Hell would freeze over before my ex ever would.

 

I don't believe (please correct me if I am wrong JLC) that BPDers viewing 'lying' as a non would. I don't believe lying is black and white to them (there is an irony here?). Let me give you an example.

 

A few years back my ex came on a family holiday. She had never met them before. Up until the holiday we were having some problems. (i.e. I knew something was wrong with this girl). After one fight she said to me "your words can sometimes hurt me". Looking back there was nothing overly harsh that I said to her. I found her to be incredibly sensitive.

 

Towards the end of the holiday she is strolling down the beach with my mom. Now my family had quite taken to her so everything was going good on that front. Later we are chilling by the beautiful harbour having a cocktail. She starts telling me about the conversation she had with my mom. Clearly this was planned by her. She asks me to promise not to say anything to my mom, I said ok.

 

She then says your mom was saying that "sometimes his words can hurt you". I knew immediately it was a lie. My mother is incapable of saying stuff like that about her kids, especially when we she is trying to make an impression on my ex. In hindsight my mother should have been more critical of me (in general) but that wasn't her style. She just engulfed her kids with love and positivity.

 

I decided to break up with my ex. Now I broke the promise which I never usually do, so i'm not all good here. My mom just said "huh, what are you talking about" Followed by "I could never said that!" She told me what was said. I confronted my ex and she swore on her grandmothers grave that my mom did indeed say "his words can sometimes hurt you". Now her grandmother was the person she loved most in the world.

 

I was confused, but for sure I knew my mom never said what my ex accused her of. I told my mom and she said right get her (my ex) on the phone put her on speaker and we will sort this out. Of course my ex QUICKLY backed down, though never admitting to the lie. At that stage the relationship should have been over. She was more than happy to let me go, instead of admitting the truth.

 

I have numerous examples of the many many lies she told. Some of them were ridiculous and easy to prove as lies. What I am not sure of is when BPDers get an idea in their head, do they truly believe them (i.e. believe the lie that they are telling?) I mean why would my ex swear on her grandmothers grave? She must (in that mental head of hers) believe my mother said what she said..

 

JLC would be great to get insight to this and BPDers lying in general.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mack05

[Emilia]

Reactions are usually strongest when people are completely out of the fog and able to see things from a distance. This is also why there are many psychiatrists who have no pity towards BPD "sufferers" whatsoever.

 

It's easier to see it as a disorder and it's easier to feel pity for them. In the end, he or she was just an immature jerk. And it's because everyone around them has been walking on eggshells all these years that they never got a chance to develop.

 

People with BPD should just be ignored.

 

Also, OP, it's unlikely that you have BPD, if you recognise yourself in the diagnosis.

 

Your post is based on ignorance and is very offensive.

 

I know you are prone to posting on LS in a gung-ho manner but I would like you to respect certain sections where bickering isn't common and where every effort is made that posts are constructive. If you wish you argue, please choose the dating section. Thanks

[Emilia]

Seriously, has anyone who interfaces with a mentally ill person ever tried to talk with them about their disease in a reasonable and calm fashion? How did that go? I have and will be happy to share the various anecdotes. IMO, such conversations are best left to a clinical setting and with a disinterested third party.

 

I made an attempt about 10 days ago with my BPD sufferer ex, not as an attempt to replace clinical setting but because he had got in touch a couple of weeks before briefly and I wanted to see how he was doing.

 

After reading numerous articles and talking to people such as Downtown I somehow managed to separate emotion and reasoning in my mind so I was able to approach the conversation very calmly even though my ex was agitated and quite vicious.

 

It is now easy for me to read his attacks as responses based on how he thinks I view him and put a vicious twist on it. So to me communicating with him is a window to what he is thinking and how he thinks I see him (usually in a bad light, as inferior with an inferior career, education, etc).

 

Surprisingly I didn't find it particularly emotionally disturbing, after the conversation I went back to my household chores

 

There were several interesting things: one was his incredulity over the conversation and genuine surprise over how I see him - even though I know he realises something is 'wrong' with him - the second was that we actually managed to have some kind of a chat and in the past it would have just resulted in an angry exchange and his cutting me off. This time he appeared to have calmed down by the end of the chat, he did ask me not to get in touch unless he gets in touch first (it is expected that I always reply even if he doesn't reply to my texts for example ) and even said something along the lines of 'I appreciate you are trying to help me' which I thought was promising. So I'm hoping he will read the book I sent him a link on (posted here on this thread too) or get in touch again and I can post it to him. I also got an 'x' on the last text as opposed to 'f**k off an die' as a good-bye so I think there is a chance that he will think this through. Who knows really though.