My wife will be devastated when I leave...

[worldgonewrong]

But there has to be a certain co-dependency here - and both men seem to indicate that they feel there is a need for them to stay within the environment, even though emotionally, they're done, because of 'other responsibilities'....

 

With utmost respect, TaraMaiden ('cause I really do dig your replies to people), I've never understood when the "co-dependent" label gets thrown into the mix. Marriage is by its nature a "co-dependent" venture; you're throwing your lot in with the other, and vice versa; there's an expectation that you won't let each other down and you'll support each other.

I understand the negative psychological connotations of the term, as therapists use it, but it's a dangerous one because it promotes a certain level of 'cutting someone out'. That is, it negates the depth of commitment that marriage entails.

[TaraMaiden]

With utmost respect, TaraMaiden ('cause I really do dig your replies to people), I've never understood when the "co-dependent" label gets thrown into the mix.

It's like this:

 

The men are staying because on one level or another they feel it's necessary to stay because they're needed.

and sometimes, when we perceive someone 'needs' us, we remain in a situation without realising that in point of fact, whever we perceive 'needs' us, actually would be able to cope and find a means of independence - because they'd have to.

but this "I can't leave, i'm needed here' sometimes serves as an excellent excuse for actually not doing the best and most sensible thing.

i cannot claim for sure whether what I say, applies in these cases, but it's funny how both men were absolutely determined that this was it - over, finito - two days ago, and yet, faced with the 'rubber-road' scenario, both have backed off their own determined decisions.

 

Marriage is by its nature a "co-dependent" venture; you're throwing your lot in with the other, and vice versa; there's an expectation that you won't let each other down and you'll support each other.

Both their partners have bailed out. These guys were already isolated, and running their side of things completely solo.

 

 

I understand the negative psychological connotations of the term, as therapists use it, but it's a dangerous one because it promotes a certain level of 'cutting someone out'. That is, it negates the depth of commitment that marriage entails.

 

their wives had already withdrawn from the commitment, and both men feel the marriage is a sham. there is no two sides here; both men have been fighting from an isolated and thankless standpoint, for a long time.

There is no 'negative psychological connotation' here at all.

Co-dependency simply means that both are dependent on certain factors which enable' the dynamic to continue - but they're not necessarily 'healthy' factors.

[scatterd]

Hi Tara: I know you are concerned, but with a wife or man that is ill, its going to be difficult ,this is not just ordinary codependency here. He is tired of what the illness is doing to his wife. Taking care of an ill person is not easy, nor is it easy to be ill. If he could have her back to the point that she can take better care of herself. I think things would be different. She has agreed to try to do better which, is a hard thing to do with her condition. Trying to find doctors ,that know how to treat her condition is not easy either. If she gets the help she needs she will do more. Love can be rekindled. I have a friend that was married, to the same woman since high School and she got ill. She died a year ago. But I was Divorced a couple of times. He told me that being married is falling in and out of love all the time. Nothing is perfect. He vowed to love her in sickness and in health. Some people take their vows seriously. It seems that marriage now days has lost its meaning. So many people go into marriage thinking well if it does not work we can always divorce. Growing old together does not guarantee, you will have good health all your life, and not have your problems. Hopefully she can do this, and he can have a wife that can manage better.I am sure he still needs support from you. I know you care. I am wondering if Have you ever taken care of an ill person Tara or been ill? I have and it has been hard, but watching someone struggle hurts. Being in their shoes would be worse.He has desided to stay, so all anyone can do is support him,and wish him the best.

[2sure]

This thread really made me think - and its a tough spot to be in.

 

Whether you said the words or not - when we get married its assumed/implied that we are in it for the long run - 'In sickness or in Health"

 

Now, we assume a lot of things when we commit and people change - lives disconnect - and many divorce. In my opinion - there are many good reasons people get divorced. one person changes, the other doesnt or they change in different directions.

 

A long term illness is a Huge Life Changer. And the illness described in this thread is apparently frustrating, can be misdiagnosed, and has complicated side issues. I can understand that each of us has to be proactive to deal with what were handed & that no partner can do it for you.

 

Bailing...would be an option. Depending on how you look at it , a justifiable option.

 

But. As we get older most of us who are married or have partners are going to have to deal with some of these decisions. Health, Care Giving, Patience, depression due to illness, ...Some of us face these things sooner than later

 

So does that mean that I will stay with you in sickness and in health as long as its me and not you who gets sick?

 

Im not giving advice & I understand your conflict. Just something I was thinking about.

[scatterd]

So does that mean that I will stay with you in sickness and in health as long as its me and not you who gets sick?

I think when most people make a vow its to stay with them in sickness and health. Silly, you don't have to vow to stay with your self you really do not have a choice. Some people take their vows serious.

[MourningLosses]

What if the person changes completely as a result of their illness? Or if they have a mental illness where it's easy to pretend it isn't there that it's just their personality?

 

I don't think you should have to stay married where the body or mind is drastically changed to the person you married.

[Gunny376]

I can't speak for anyone else ~ just myself.

 

But when I signed on with Mrs. Gunny? I signed on for "Come Hell or high water, Sickness and Health, Richer or Poorer!"

 

If that means I've got to wear sack cloth, sleep in a hollow log, eat road kill, and drink muddy water? So be it!

 

But that's just how a lot of us Marines are ~ we never claimed to have any common sense! We wouldn't be Marines if we had any!

 

Mrs Gunny has arthritis, worn out knees, fibromyalgia, depression ~ yada ~ yada ~ yada. She's not a twenty or even thirty something year old.

 

But she's my gal ~ she's the best woman I've ever been BLESSED WITH!

 

I don't care who you are, how young you are? Just take your Happy Azz down to the Old Folks Home? And no matter who you are? That's pretty much who you're going to end up with.

 

That is if you live long enough!

 

Hopefully, Mrs. Gunny and I will end up there together one day, trying to sneak away from the nurses on duty to spend time alone!

[scatterd]

Gunny

I like the way you think. Love the way you put it also.LOL We are not spring chickens forever. You took your vows seriously. People do not sign up to get sick or grow older. I do get the service thinking also. My dad was an E9 in the national guard and his wife was also in the service as a recruiter. You are a real trooper.

[g450]

Wow that was quick thanks!

 

I'm in UK. My finances are simple, no assets now and I've paid the house rent til next January so happy to let her stay there. Hope that gives her some breathing space to sort herself.

 

She has some family in the next town which I hope would help her to claim benefits and find a longer term place to live.

 

After 24 years of caring for her I'm finding it hard to accept she's responsible for herself....

 

Not to sound cruel man but Good God man! Your a 49 year old man, married for 24 years and have no assets?

 

What have you two been doing with your lives these past two decades?

 

With that said at least your divorce will be simple. Having nothing means nothing to fight over. And apparently your kids are grown. So if you decided on this later it wont be too complicated.

 

I do feel for you. I have a brother with a wife EXACTLY like that. She is always too sickly to work but not to sick to keep from chain smoking. She does absolutely nothing at home and he has to work all day and come home and feed and care for his kids. He adores her but the reality is that he is simply codependant to her just like I was to my XW. I feel bad for him but he wants to keep his marriage and his kids's family life intact. I respect that.

 

I also agree with others that it is a bit cold for you to just go for divorce withought giving her a chance to fix things. Yes you talked to her about the issues but I really think that if she knew what you were planning she would have made an actual effort. This is one thing that I hated about my XW. She not only never gave me a second chance, she would not even tell me what the issues were. I still resent that. Just food for thought.

 

Reading further I see you worked it out. I wish you both luck. But Im afraid Tara is right. You and your wife have a co-dependacy issue. You both need to work on that. I dont think this is over yet.

 

This thread did make me think though. I recently remarried and I did mean every word of my vows. I would have stayed with my wife as long as she loved me. But I also told my current wife that if I ever got to a place where our lives together suffered, I would let her go so she could live hers. Love works both ways.

[dangerous]

Not to sound cruel man but Good God man! Your a 49 year old man, married for 24 years and have no assets?

 

What have you two been doing with your lives these past two decades?

 

..

 

Thanks a lot! I was doing pretty well before the recession but feel bad enough about losing my business, have been made redundant twice, my home repossessed etc and having to start over again at nearly 50.

 

But to get back to my original thread, we're working hard to get through this. I feel relieved and content to be staying together and working TOGETHER to sort out our differences:

 

My W dressed up and came out with me for a meal, she's booked an appointment with her GP for Friday, the house is looking tidier already and we haven't been arguing. She doesn't hound me with moany phone calls & messages, and it actually makes me feel good when she calls me.

 

It's only been a few days but it feels good again.

 

I figure if we both take one day at a time and focus on positives and progress then good habits will form and hopefully last.

 

Wish us luck

[TaraMaiden]

I hope this good turn of events continues...

It would be extremely sad if this was a mere attempt to improve to stop you from going. I'd rather, for her well-being and sake, hope it's a real turning of a new leaf. It can only do her good.

 

I wish you both well, and send you every good wish for a continued, positive, upbeat future!

[Kelemvor]

I think if you had been married for a shorter time, I would encourage you to just be done with it and leave. However, you've invested quite a deal into this marriage, so if you never voiced your concerns, then it's probably fair to communicate and give her a chance to change. Personally, after this long... I doubt the change will last. Also, you have to ask yourself that if these things changed... would you feel any differently? If the damage has been done and you just aren't in love with her anymore, then it's best to nip it in the bud. Best of luck to you. I'm a firm believer that everyone deserves happiness in life though, even if that means that you have to look out for yourself first and foremost in many circumstances.

[dangerous]

Again, many thanks to all for advice on both sides. Of course the decision was mine alone but your comments really helped me weigh up the pros and cons of my options.

 

Now that I've decided to stay, it's a weight off my mind, and haven't got this dread of leaving, confrontation, guilt etc - I hope it lasts (only time will tell if I get that sense of intense dissatisfaction and restlessness again.)

 

Credit to my wife, although she is especially ill (genuinely) at the moment with a chest infection she's been really sweet and self aware of her long term negative attitude which she's actively switched to making the effort to be positive. This has made such a difference. When she phones me or I arrive home I actually feel happy and loved!

 

We have the storm of my daughter's eating disorder when she returns from holiday but as a couple we feel so much stronger and positive about the present and future. Yes we've been to the brink but hope we've stepped away from it, now for good.

[TaraMaiden]

You have no idea how hard I'm praying this isn't temporary...

 

as one of those who actively encouraged you to make the break, I hope nothing I said caused offence.

Over again, i would probably say the same, but notwithstanding that, I think you made a good call.

you're there, after all.... we're not....

i think it's extremely noble of you to put things into reverse....

 

 

I hope you can make a go of it and that it all pans out well.

 

I wish you all the best.

[giotto]

There are currently 2 threads running where guys have been pushed to their absolute limits, and have said they're leaving - and both guys have back-pedalled to an extent or another....

 

You are referring to me, I haven't back-pedalled. The main reason I'm staying is because of the children. Otherwise, I would be out. If I leave now, my children would be at great disadvantage because of my wife working shifts. I also do feel responsible for my wife with OCD. I definitely don't want her to get worse and by leaving I would probably do just that. Same as the OP.

 

It's great that the OP's wife is doing something about it. I wish I could say the same.

[TaraMaiden]

I didn't mean 'back-pedalled' in an insulting or condescending way.

Maybe it was a poor choice of word.

Apologies if it offended....

[giotto]

I didn't mean 'back-pedalled' in an insulting or condescending way.

Maybe it was a poor choice of word.

Apologies if it offended....

 

No, I wasn't offended... I know it can be interpreted as back-pedalling... I think I've been back and forward several times...

[JamesM]

I am appalled by the lack of compassion for a person suffering from fibromyalgia and chronic pain.This is not easy to deal with it is very painful.

 

I feel for her and this will be devastating and hard for her. Do your research and hope no body you love comes up with this.

 

 

I have done my research over and over again. I have a wife who has been diagnosed with it. I do have compassion for those who have it. I am not saying what I say with no knowledge of what impact fibro has on an individual.

 

I have researched every possibility for a "cure" and help. From my research has come medicine changes for my wife that have improved her life. She loves it that I have cared enough to find her help.

 

BUT...I also know that everyone is different in the amount of pain they can tolerate and the attitude they have towards it. I used to think my wife had a high pain tolerance but now I no longer feel that way. And as a husband who also lives in an almost sexless marriage (almost because we did do the act twice this year and ten times in three years), I can sympathize with the OP. I think from my research that in many cases, someone with fibro may actually be more sensitive to pain. And with a large majority of cases, sexual abuse occurred in the life of the fibro "patient." That was the case with my wife and it is the case of many people who I have felt comfortable asking in real life, and it has been by far the case of the majority of those who I have surveyed on line in many different forums. My conclusion is that the emotional pain so overwhelmed the person (since many times it was during childhood) who was sexually abused that in later life, the pain showed itself as a physical pain. This does not make it any less, but it may be a reason why it occurs.

 

Dangerous, was your wife ever sexually abused or a victim of any type of major abuse that you are aware of?

 

Now to my point....

 

What is frustrating is the lack of concern for showing love and care to the person without fibro while that person does everything within his ability to make things better. What is most depressing is to hear that you are a wonderful and caring husband and to rarely get a physical expression of that love. I know that pain can make sex unappealing. I know that when I have a headache or toothache, then I cannot "perform." I know that I won't enjoy it. But I know that I could still find some time when the pain is mostly gone or is gone to take some time to express my love for a caring and patient individual. I know that in my wife's case, she has shown that sex CAN be enjoyable if she wants it to be, and she is not always in pain.

 

Dangerous, I applaud your for staying and yet I also must say that it was the easiest choice. It would have been more difficult to leave. I also will say what whichwayisup said to me a number of years ago when my wife suddenly became sexual with me after a confrontation, "Be prepared...it won't last." And it didn't. So I say to you with hopefully as much kindness as WWIU did, "Be prepared....this may not last."

 

Dangerous, do what you can to retain this attitude of hers. Do NOT take it for granted, and yet do not fawn all over her so that SHE thinks she has done enough. Try to keep her secure in knowing that you love her but also remind her that her "disease" is not an excuse to check out of the marriage. DO not let her think that the "threat" of you leaving has now disappeared, but somehow get her to realize that HER attitude change is what kept you with her, and her attitude change can keep you with her. Don't assume that you two will now live happily ever after. When my wife suddenly enjoyed sex, I think it was because she was afraid of losing me. This fear drove her to realize how much she loved me and it turned her on. (I think). This was in 2006. This lasted approximately six months. Hugs and kisses and sex happened more frequently that ever before or after. And then I am not sure what happened. I think she became secure in thinking that since that scare was gone, that I would stay. I like to think that I didn't take her for granted. I like to think that I stayed the same, but I don't know. Suddenly, I realized that sex was less often. And by that fall, things were returning to what it was before. And now life is as before or worse.

 

So I say to you....do what YOU can to keep this attitude change.

[dangerous]

Sadly I am back.

A year later and same situation.

I now have a steady job (but still money worries living on a single wage) and daughter seems stable (but eating disorder probably there though secret).

 

My wife's commitment to change hasn't lasted - yes she tries periodically but no noticeable trend or changes in a year. But the significant issue as I see it is that she says that I have no right to ask her to make changes. She demands regularly that I tell her that I'll NEVER leave her bringing up intense conversations first thing in the morning and just before bed - I am not in the mood to talk at these times and I have difficulty reassuring her as I'm not a good liar and I'm obviously unhappy - and regularly rethinking leaving!

 

Whenever I try to have a two way discussion with her she just gets angry. She is uncompromising eg. Demands I get up early and go out on my days off so she can 'rest'. Doesn't come out with me (almost ever) even to the shops and the house gone to pot, doctor chasing still slow and sporadic - won't let me help).

 

My job and work life and finances are massively stressful (for her too I know) and I'm asking myself (again) is this what's life about? Can I get out of this financial and emotional rut? How will I feel looking back in 1 year, 5 years? 20 years/ on my death bed?

 

I'm considering (planning/ fantasizing) about leaving again...

 

But as ever she is so vulnerable - has no friends, unsupportive family etc.

 

I have the usual two views: leave and start again versus guilt and fear.

 

(I know I'll get some 'told you so,s')

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited November 10, 2013 by dangerous
Word changes

[TaraMaiden]

Look, you have two clear choices:

 

leave and expect flak but don't give into it (we know what happened last time, right? And the time before that, and possibly, the time before that, too?).

 

Understand that all the hysterical screaming, weeping, begging, threatening, pleading, cajoling and promises to change are (a) temporary and (b) tools of manipulation.

Pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less.

 

She knows that by throwing a great big wobbly dicky fit, she can persuade you into believing that if you go her world will fall apart.

It won't.

But if it does, that's on her, not you.

But if you decide to capitulate, and you give in to this mis-en-scene,

then that's your problem. Of your making.

 

You have no right to moan that she has not kept her side of the bargain, if you, repeatedly, have also not kept your word, and followed words with actions.

 

Don't complain that you haven't walked, and things haven't changed.

You CHOSE to stay.

So the consequences were already pretty much mapped out already. And you knew it.

 

It hasn't take more than a year for you to realise her last performance was just a way of keeping you there. This must have dawned on you a while ago: The 'lather/rinse/repeat' factor was strong and visible, even then.

 

So: Things haven't changed.

Are they still going to remain unchanged, or are you actually now going to leave?

[CarrieT]

^^^^ Reread what Tara wrote above ^^^^^

 

Heck, re-read this entire thread a number of times. Frankly, I am not surprised it did not last. Most spouses that go through this are often thrown back to where they once were with little change.

 

You have done everything you can and now it is time to cut the cord and move on.

 

Best of luck and come here often; we are here to help you through the process.

[imtooconfused]

A bit of time was spent on this thread debating the meaning of the marriage vows and the "in sickness and in health" part. There's not much question that leaving the marriage would be breaking this vow. But there is usually the "to love and to cherish" part, and it's my strong opinion that when one spouse relies on the "sickness" clause due a health problem that they have, it is all the more important that the unhealthy spouse steps up on the "love and cherish" part to make up for the stress on the marriage. It's pretty clear that the wife in this thread has done none of that, and in fact can be said to have broken the "love and cherish" vow fully and completely.

 

So in my humble opinion, dangerous if you are still holding on to guilt in breaking your marital promise, I ask you to see that your wife broke her end of the promisses, what would appear to be a long time ago.

[Misadventure]

Have you previously told her that things could not go on like this and that you were seriously considering divorce...or will she be surprised?

 

Don't know if this was answered but please prepare her, don't drop her this bomb by surprise.

[bentleychic]

Sadly I am back.

A year later and same situation.

I now have a steady job (but still money worries living on a single wage) and daughter seems stable (but eating disorder probably there though secret).

 

My wife's commitment to change hasn't lasted - yes she tries periodically but no noticeable trend or changes in a year. But the significant issue as I see it is that she says that I have no right to ask her to make changes. She demands regularly that I tell her that I'll NEVER leave her bringing up intense conversations first thing in the morning and just before bed - I am not in the mood to talk at these times and I have difficulty reassuring her as I'm not a good liar and I'm obviously unhappy - and regularly rethinking leaving!

 

Whenever I try to have a two way discussion with her she just gets angry. She is uncompromising eg. Demands I get up early and go out on my days off so she can 'rest'. Doesn't come out with me (almost ever) even to the shops and the house gone to pot, doctor chasing still slow and sporadic - won't let me help).

 

My job and work life and finances are massively stressful (for her too I know) and I'm asking myself (again) is this what's life about? Can I get out of this financial and emotional rut? How will I feel looking back in 1 year, 5 years? 20 years/ on my death bed?

 

I'm considering (planning/ fantasizing) about leaving again...

 

But as ever she is so vulnerable - has no friends, unsupportive family etc.

 

I have the usual two views: leave and start again versus guilt and fear.

 

(I know I'll get some 'told you so,s')

 

Thanks for reading.

I finally left my miserable marriage when an old friend passed away. This old friend had lived life to the fullest. He had a wonderful, happy life, even in his final years with cancer, he continued living as much as he could, traveling, being around loved ones, etc.

 

That made me realize that I was wasting my one life being miserable because of someone else because staying married was what was expected of me by everyone else (family, friends, religion, etc.). I finally realized that this is my ONE life, no redos, no do-overs, no second chances. I was "wasting" my life staying in a situation that made me (and my children and now exH, to be honest) absolutely miserable.

 

You need to do decide if it's worth wasting your life staying in a situation that you are miserable in simply because it is what is expected of you. I've read this entire thread and the minute I read the post saying you were staying and she was doing better, dressing up, etc., I would have made a $ bet that it would not last. It's the "honeymoon" stage where they put their best foot forward so you change your mind and stay. It very rarely lasts. People change for themselves. They rarely make a permanent change for someone else.

 

Good luck deciding what you want to do with this ONE life that you have been given. Please don't waste it being miserable.*

 

 

(*of course there's no guarantee that you'll be super happy if you leave, either, but staying is definite misery, as it has been for so many years already.)

[anna121]

This is hard but...I think if you are going to leave you should just make suitable arrangements and not come home.

 

Dramatic and brutal, but that's what it will take.