Women aren't as "soft" as they used to be

[sally4sara]

Again, you are too political and emotional, hence you find it impossible to be objective. I can find a thousand examples of women being violent towards men in advertisements.

 

Do you think this commercial, which was approved and aired during the Super Bowl (where commercials are watched by the most people), would have been taken so light-heartedly had the roles been reversed? I doubt it. And a guy getting head butted and knocked unconscious over some weight-loss yogurt is far less light-hearted than a laughing 1950's woman getting spanked.

 

Yes I know how you feel about smacking women's bottoms. Heard enough about it yesterday. Its no big deal if someone larger than you demoralizes you while causing you pain so long as the smaller person is female.

 

That commercial is awful. And there are laws against that kind of behavior. I wonder - did you grow up in a world where there use to be laws protecting people larger than you and their right to cause you physical and mental harm?

[NXS]

 

That commercial is awful. And there are laws against that kind of behavior.

 

Really? but it's still allowed in an ad?

[NXS]

But like every woman I met. They like to argue and have the last word cause that means they won. Women have poor logic skills.

 

They don't need logic, shaming and guilting seems to work just fine.... or at least it used to.

[threebyfate]

Guys, guys, if you want soft and obedient, train a puppy!

[M30USA]

Guys, guys, if you want soft and obedient, train a puppy!

 

I don't think it's the men who want obedient spouses. Notice how all the marriage jokes are about women "training" their husbands...not the other way around.

[proseandpassion]

Under real Patriarchy, women are revered for their roles wives, mothers and even Goddesses. You can still see some long-obsolete relics of the respect and admiration men had for women in traditional societies in our language, such as the designation of fairer sex . Women had more obligations than they do now, that's true, but they also had a lot more respect hoisted upon them by society, and most of it was not sexual motivated.

 

But just like you can't have it both ways when you choose to work a full-time career and have children (what American women were taught to believe in the 1980's) , you can't have it both ways when it comes to gender roles either. You can't be that random woman who drunkenly grabs my ass when I least expect it, then turns around and complains about how violated and weak you feel when a man you're not attracted to does it to you.

 

You want to do the same things as men, you have to live with the same burdens and take the same risks (while accepting the consequences). Even in our really civilized, orderly societies, men find themselves in violent or dangerous situations more often than women do. Why don't you compare the homicide rates between men and women if you think being male is all peaches and cream.

 

I actually agree with this.

 

Re: Children and Working

What do you suggest we do about this? I think two income households aren't going away anytime soon. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

 

Re: Sexual behavior

I find sexually aggressive anyone (man or woman) to be problematic. I am disturbed when I see young women grab asses/crotches, etc. I've also seen women punch men in bars and dare said man to hit them (because they know they won't).

[oaks]

When I say "soft" I mean in demenaor.

 

Glad you clarified. I was thinking maybe you were squeezing them in the wrong way.

[Woggle]

It cracks me up the way people get on men's cases for wanting a woman that treats them well. Are we supposed to want a hard hearted woman who treats us like crap, berates us, cheats on us and shows no loving or tenderness towards us? If we don't want that why are we accused of wanting an obedient stepford wife?

 

I have a wife who treats me well but the way most married men tend to get treated pretty much shows the wives having more than utter contempt for their husbands. Why would any rational person want to sign to be treated with utter contempt?

[kaylan]

Women make up >60% of college graduates. How about a little affirmative action for men, eh? Lower test score requirements? Tuition breaks?

???

 

Its not like there is a system in place thats discriminating against men. Its just more women are deciding to go to school than men nowadays. Girls want their own cash and livelihood.

 

Plus men still control most of the country...so what affirmative action do we need?

[irc333]

Sorry, I can't help it if I got my ass kicked by my wife and never laid a finger on her. I've also only known 2 other people who've been the victims of domestic violence. Both were male. This has caused me to do some serious investigation about the truth in comparison to what we are told on TV.

 

 

Yeah, I had a good friend of mine, probably one of those passive men I've ever known....was cuffed and hauled away to spend a night in jail because his live-in boyfriend hurt herself trying to hurt HIM. He was just trying to restrain her.

 

Of course, she had bruises and cuts, and this was a perfect way for her to callt he police and have him hauled away.

 

Fortunately, he only got off with having to take anger mgt courses. But they believed her word over his.

[irc333]

I more often see commercials where husbands were made to look like bumbling fools when they're trying to fix something around the house.

 

Like they have him putting up a simple set of blinds, and then they show him all tangled up in it like an idiot.

 

And the wife just shakes her head, and she finds some easy to use product in lieu of what the bumbling, bafoon of a husband tried to do.

 

 

 

 

Again, you are too political and emotional, hence you find it impossible to be objective. I can find a thousand examples of women being violent towards men in advertisements.

 

Do you think this commercial, which was approved and aired during the Super Bowl (where commercials are watched by the most people), would have been taken so light-heartedly had the roles been reversed? I doubt it. And a guy getting head butted and knocked unconscious over some weight-loss yogurt is far less light-hearted than a laughing 1950's woman getting spanked.

[threebyfate]

I don't think it's the men who want obedient spouses. Notice how all the marriage jokes are about women "training" their husbands...not the other way around.

So your entire perception of male/female relationships, is based on a few jokes? Or should we add a few anecdotal incidents to polish up the fictional story?

[Jane2011]

When I say "soft" I mean in demenaor. Me and my male friend had been talking about some women in our social circle. Like there's this one, that always showing off or trying to prove herself at certain events involving physical activity of any sort.

 

She's kind of a "poser", and it seems she needs approval of her peers.

 

Another one he knows personally, she's part of his social circle (not mine) is part of his group, but had seen her profile online...he had known her for a while through the events, but he says she can be a bit abrasive in conversation....even though she is relatively nice...she can be a bit "gruff"

 

Of course, it REALLY comes out on online dating sites...the "tone" at which these profiles are written are quite off putting, and increasing in numbers.

 

One woman was like, "I like a man who is tall and fit, so basically, if it looks like I can kick your ass, I probably wouldn't be interested."

 

The "I'm better than you profile" - Now....why not say, "I just like a man who is tall and fit" don't throw in that last part.

 

"Don't email me again, if you already emailed before and I didn't respond....take the hint!"

 

The Defensive profile - "I have my own job, and pay my OWN bills" Yeah...so? What's you're point.

 

Stuff like that.

 

Seems profiles are more oozing with sarcasm and condescension.

 

I'm sure BOTH sexes do it, but in some of the profile reviews of sites, apparently women can get away with it more so than men. As if the women had the right to *itch about stuff...while with men it's considered "negative"

 

I agree with you that people who sound so "don't contact me if..." and generally sarcastic, condescending, and no-nonsense are kind of off-putting (whether male or female). I'd never create a profile like that, or respond to a guy's whose was like that. However, the profile style probably is effective in eliminating a lot of unwanted suitors.

 

My own profile is very neutral. It just presents who I am, doesn't say what I want or what I don't want in a man. Thus, I get a lot of responses from people who I'm not interested in. If I wrote a bunch of things stipulating what I want and don't want, I wouldn't get all this unwanted mail.

 

And there is, indeed, a lot I don't want -- age-wise, education-wise, body-wise, etc. -- but in the name of decorum, I don't say so on my profile.

 

All that being said, I agree with others that it's okay for women to be aggressive, loud, and opinionated. I'm not "crazy" about the personality-type, myself, in a female (which is not to say I'm not sometimes aggressive, loud, and opinionated myself, but I don't think it dominates my personality). Yet, I'd rather give women the right to be aggressive, loud, and opinionated than say they can only be quiet, soft, and demure. It makes me ill when people talk about how women need to be soft, quiet, and demure. Ugh.

[El Brujo]

She's kind of a "poser", and it seems she needs approval of her peers.

 

That's called histrionics.

[M30USA]

???

 

Its not like there is a system in place thats discriminating against men. Its just more women are deciding to go to school than men nowadays. Girls want their own cash and livelihood.

 

Hmmm...so when we are presented with a statistic that more men are engineers than women, would it also be fair to say that it's because les women are "deciding" to go into engineering than are men? Why is it assumed that women are always discriminated against when they're aren't equally represented; yet when men aren't equally represented (such as in college) it's always assumed they "decided" not to go to college?

 

Plus men still control most of the country...so what affirmative action do we need?

 

Men control most of the country? What about in family courts? What about in the home? What about in the education system? What about managerial roles in the office? I could keep going...

[Jane2011]

Women should be wives and mothers. If the majority of women tomorrow left their job, wages would double due to labor scarcity and unemployment would be non-existent.

 

I refuse to believe the typical woman slaving away for a scumbag ungrateful boss in her monotonous data entry job finds that more fulfilling than serving her children and husband. I just don't see any advantage to serving a faceless corporation over the people you love. Besides, now with all the modern appliances available, housework is more or less a piece of cake with dishwashes, laundry machines, etc.

 

Women can pursue hobbies they actually like with the leisure time, you're telling me the average working woman is actually doing something she loves in her stuffy cubicle job? Do women actually enjoy the stress of working? Not only that, but it would also take stress off the shoulders of men , who will be making an actual dignified/living wage in this scenario, and not be as paranoid about losing their job because of how the labor market is flooded.

 

I see this behavior all the time, which goes to show that the way Sara sees the world is only in her mind. Women are about as accountable for their actions as children, with all the same privileges as adults. If a woman wants to challenge me to a fight because she is drunk and thinks I pushed her on purpose in a bar, I'd be happy to do my feminist egalitarian duty and have her wake up hungover in a dentist's chair. But you see, if I were to be a true feminist, I would be in jail, have to fight a million other random guys who react because they see a woman in distress (even if it's her own fault), then get some judge throw the book at me for being a woman-beater (notice how man-beater doesn't have the same Pavlovian ring to it?). If women want to behave like men, we should treat them as such, but if they want all the privileges of being female, they should act like ladies. There is no middle point on this question.

 

As if most women who work are in stuffy cubicle jobs? I'm a college-level teacher, and I love teaching. I'm not in a cubicle. In fact, I'm out in the sunshine for a good part of my work day; I have a lot of freedom between classes I teach. I can go grab lunch, run errands, read an article, drop in at home and see family for an hour, go back to campus, etc.

 

Other women work in jobs they like, too. One of my close friends is a lawyer and works from home; she's not unhappy in some cubicle.

 

Plus, even women who do work in cubicles - some probably like it. Maybe not the actual cubicle part, but there may be much to her job that she really enjoys. Maybe interaction with customers. Maybe heading up some meeting. Maybe co-worker friendships, etc. All jobs are a drag in some way; doesn't mean people wouldn't still rather do them than just sit at home.

 

It's true women would love to just spend time doing hobbies and not have to work. Men would, too. But we all like having some income that is our own, so it's worth it for most of us to put a big dent in our hobbies-time to work. Often, working pays for some of our hobbies. Or lets us travel. Or lets us go shopping. Or lets us take a class and learn things.

 

Also, you're saying if women want to "be like men" (as in, be allowed to have a voice in the world, have jobs, have some authority, pursue intellect, express strong opinions), men should be able to punch them in the face in a bar fight because they're "acting like men" by wanting some intellectual and career similarity to what men have. What kind of crazy thinking is that? Nobody is claiming that women are physically equal to men. Just because women want to have some equality in areas where there can be some equality, doesn't mean we can just grow, at will, to be 6' tall and 180 lbs like a man.

 

If I had a 12 year old son who said he wanted to have similar freedoms and privileges as his 14 year old brother in terms of right to be heard, have intellectual privileges, be allowed to do things in a public role, I wouldn't tell him yes, he could, but only if he was willing to have the 14 year old beat him up, even though the 12 year old is 5' tall and the 14 year old is 5'5". After all, if he wants the same things his brother has, he has to be willing to let the brother beat him up just as he would beat up a guy his own height and weight. What the f*ck?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Jane2011

[udolipixie]

Possibly a societal thing for both genders as it seems society has hardened though it may be more noticeable on woman as they're often expected to be soft ala the traditional female gender role.

 

In my opinion it's great that women aren't as soft as they used to be considering how lots of things women used to be likely weren't supportive to their happiness and healthy.

 

Different experiences on women have the right to b*tch while with men it's considered negative as mine have been women are man hating while men are telling the truth.

 

Bit curious how ""I like a man who is tall and fit, so basically, if it looks like I can kick your ass, I probably wouldn't be interested." is a "I'm better than you profile" rather than "I don't want a man worse than me".

[udolipixie]

Under real Patriarchy, women are revered for their roles wives, mothers and even Goddesses. You can still see some long-obsolete relics of the respect and admiration men had for women in traditional societies in our language, such as the designation of fairer sex . Women had more obligations than they do now, that's true, but they also had a lot more respect hoisted upon them by society, and most of it was not sexual motivated.

 

But just like you can't have it both ways when you choose to work a full-time career and have children (what American women were taught to believe in the 1980's) , you can't have it both ways when it comes to gender roles either. You can't be that random woman who drunkenly grabs my ass when I least expect it, then turns around and complains about how violated and weak you feel when a man you're not attracted to does it to you.

 

You want to do the same things as men, you have to live with the same burdens and take the same risks (while accepting the consequences). Even in our really civilized, orderly societies, men find themselves in violent or dangerous situations more often than women do. Why don't you compare the homicide rates between men and women if you think being male is all peaches and cream.

I highly doubt that generally under real patriachy women are revered rather than attractive young women who do what men want are revered.

 

I highly doubt that generally under real patriarchy most of the "respect" wasn't sexually motivated as patriarchy has often shown whe it comes to her value is based on to be her youth/beauty, her worth is based on her sexual chastity, and she's shamed/punished for not doing as men want sexually.

 

You state women can't have it both ways a full-time career and have children while saying if women want the same things men do they have to live with the same burdens and risk. They're not getting the same burdens and taking the same risks if they aren't able to have a full time career and have children as men generally can do.

[Radu]

Women should be wives and mothers. If the majority of women tomorrow left their job, wages would double due to labor scarcity and unemployment would be non-existent.

You are wrong.

Most of the women employed are not in the logical industries, but in the service industry [and HR] which are the fastest growing segments.

The manufacturing industry, a staple of the US expansion after WW2 is now gone to China, India, and soon to follow ... South America.

The worst hit jobs in the US recession have been these jobs.

 

Quite frankly, you guys either need to end AA for women in college or just plain switch it to men, because reading department's roster in the US sounds like a page out of the Bombay yellow pages.

 

I refuse to believe the typical woman slaving away for a scumbag ungrateful boss in her monotonous data entry job finds that more fulfilling than serving her children and husband. I just don't see any advantage to serving a faceless corporation over the people you love. Besides, now with all the modern appliances available, housework is more or less a piece of cake with dishwashes, laundry machines, etc.

Believe it or not, some women love to work.

While others have more of an inclination to being a housewive.

Feminism is about having the former option.

In my country during the communist regime, working was mandatory to some degree.

It was very hard to be a SAHM, mostly only ppl in the villages managed it. But these SAHMs cleaned the house, and worked the field behind the house, they just preferred to work at home and with their families.

And this was in the age of no washing machines.

 

 

Women can pursue hobbies they actually like with the leisure time, you're telling me the average working woman is actually doing something she loves in her stuffy cubicle job? Do women actually enjoy the stress of working? Not only that, but it would also take stress off the shoulders of men , who will be making an actual dignified/living wage in this scenario, and not be as paranoid about losing their job because of how the labor market is flooded.

Some do enjoy it.

I have relatives [women] who's husbands now make enough for the entire family and they don't buy into the consumerist culture.

They work because for them it's interesting, it's fun ... they actually see sitting at home with nothing to do [in their case as kids have left] as death of the mind.

These are also women who took 1-2yrs off work after everyone of their kids and came back to their careers.

 

 

 

I see this behavior all the time, which goes to show that the way Sara sees the world is only in her mind. Women are about as accountable for their actions as children, with all the same privileges as adults. If a woman wants to challenge me to a fight because she is drunk and thinks I pushed her on purpose in a bar, I'd be happy to do my feminist egalitarian duty and have her wake up hungover in a dentist's chair. But you see, if I were to be a true feminist, I would be in jail, have to fight a million other random guys who react because they see a woman in distress (even if it's her own fault), then get some judge throw the book at me for being a woman-beater (notice how man-beater doesn't have the same Pavlovian ring to it?). If women want to behave like men, we should treat them as such, but if they want all the privileges of being female, they should act like ladies. There is no middle point on this question.

Agreed, there is a double standard here.

Best way is to stay clear of the nutcases.

My uncle [lawyer] was telling me about this woman who he worked with.

Now this guy has been married for 35yrs, and in his mind it is dirty to look at another woman.

This woman made a pass at him at work, he refused. She ended up spreading rumours about him left and right, he was denied a promotion because of it and investigated by the secret police.

He proved the rumours false, he proved it was her who spread them, was she held accountable for her actions ? ... nope.