Do you think OW / MM are character damaged?

[Leelou]

I was told by my then- counselor of a few years, that I had a character flaw for having an A with a MM. I felt offended; I asked her to take that comment back, but she stood by what she said, so I fired her.

 

I then ran this past the shrink I was seeing (he had seen me three years, had prescribed anti-depressants) and he knew my marital history and my serial-cheating H's history. I had been faithful in a twenty year marriage with NO cheating on my side, despite several affairs from my H, over the years. I had never slept with any other man besides my H.

When I saw I couldn't change my cheating H, and my needs went unmet, and I was angry and heavily depressed, I chose to have an A of my own. It was motivated by revenge - I chose a man that if my H ever finds out about my A, that my H would be severely hurt by the knowledge..

 

My shrink did not agree with what my counselor said about me, but her cutting words have stung, still, all these years later.

I want to know what others on this board think -- do all OW / MM inherently have character flaws?

 

What does it even mean when she said I had a character flaw? Does that mean that even though I was a virgin til my husband, and remained faithful to him for the next twenty years (even though he kept having affairs) that THAT history of mine MEANT NOTHING since in the end I messed up by having an A in my forties?

Surely a person's 'character' is set by the time they are in their forties? If I had NEVER freakin' done one wrong thing in my entire life up to that point, and THEN I chose to have an A with a MM, does that mean that I ALWAYS had a character flaw lurking in me?

 

Please, what do you think?

[amaysngrace]

I think that living with someone for as long as you did with your husband rubbed off on you.

 

No you probably always didn't have bad moral judgment but you probably just adapted a "if you can't beat them, join them" type of attitude.

[TaraMaiden]

We all have "Character flaws" so to paste that one on you was both unprofessional and utterly tactless.

You can't change character, but you can change behaviour.

 

And yes, I agree with amaysngrace - you'd probably finally come to the conclusion that sauce for the gander.....

[beach]

Short answer is yes.

 

For starters it's extremely SELFISH (character flaw) to cause harm to others. It's also dishonest (character flaw).

 

What is it that you aren't seeing? You don't recognize those as two very basic and big character defects?

 

Being selfish and dishonest aren't character traits I search for in any mate - much less a friend.

 

Why would you think it's ok?

[Leelou]

Do you consider deception and weakness character flaws?

 

Just because you've been a "good girl" up until a certain point and were motivated by revenge, it doesn't mean your character isn't flawed.

It's that cut and dried, is it? ANYONE involved in an affair has a flawed character? No exceptions? No extenuating circumstances? They are Just As Bad as a spouse who begins cheating from when they are first married, with several people, lying straight to their spouse's face?

 

At least I warned my husband that I did NOT any longer assure him of fidelity, and that I reserved the right to HAVE AN AFFAIR when I chose to. And, I actually told him I had an affair, and with whom, during the first few months - he chose not to take me seriously, so I didn't force him to.

 

Am I STILL full of deception and weakness? At least I gave my husband a heads up. And disclosed. And screw him, he didn't deserve my fidelity.

 

What do you think? Am I 'just as bad' as my H? Do you ONLY look at the behavior/action, or do you look at the whole case, do you take other factors into consideration? Is everyone just as bad? Do you think I have a true 'character flaw'? What if I had chosen to divorce instead of have an affair, would my character STILL be golden? Or would you say you can only judge at the end of a person's lifetime?

[Leelou]

I think cheating and lying and being a participant as a single ow is a character defect.

 

To me what is the bigger question is, is it a temporary thing or is a way of life.

I like your question of whether it is a temporary thing or a way of life, however I think the two things you said are contradictory.. a CHARACTER defect is something inherently wrong with the person, that can never be changed.. a person's character is SET.

But you're saying is it the way they are going to live temporarily, or for life..

[Leelou]

You're a cheater, no?

For all we know, you may be too.

 

I don't know if you've ever stolen, been nasty to someone un-deserving of such treatment, or hurt something.. so I can't take you at face value of being innocent.

 

You could be a cheater in life too.

 

You certainly don't seem very nice by the way you write!

 

Now **** off out of my thread

[Leelou]

You can't change character, but you can change behaviour.

 

This is, essentially, my point.. I was who I was my entire life up to my forties, and THEN I thought 'screw him!' and I CHANGED MY BEHAVIOR to hurt him, to get power back, to get over him and detach from my H.

 

So, my question is, do you all think it was my character or my behavior that changed?

 

Since we can't change character, and I behaved radically differently in my FORTIES, do you still think I have a 'character flaw'?

 

By the way, for what it is worth, I fully told my husband that I did NOT assure him of my fidelity anymore, and that what was good for him, was good for me too, and that I 'reserved the right to have an affair' anytime in the future that I chose to.

 

Then, I actually told him after I started my affair that I was having an affair, and named the man, but my H did not believe me, and I did not force him to.

 

Is my character flawed, in YOUR opinion... looking at MY history.

 

@bentnotbroken, I pride myself on behaving morally in every other aspect of my life, when no one is looking.

I am only wayward in this affair.

[Leelou]

Short answer is yes.

 

For starters it's extremely SELFISH (character flaw) to cause harm to others. It's also dishonest (character flaw).

 

What is it that you aren't seeing? You don't recognize those as two very basic and big character defects?

 

Being selfish and dishonest aren't character traits I search for in any mate - much less a friend.

 

Why would you think it's ok?

I am selfish and dishonest to the MM's wife.

 

I am not really selfish and dishonest in my marriage with my H.

 

What is it that I need to see?

 

I am generous with people all around me. I am honest with people and straightforward in other aspects of my life.

 

By its very nature, this affair has got to be inherently secret and dishonest and selfish, but that's because I chose to have this Affair. How can you have an affair if you do not keep it secret and selfish? Then it is not an affair.

[Leelou]

No. And anyone that says you have a character flaw because of one choice is very narrow minded.

Wow, LFH you are the only person so far to say this. Thank you. There is some hope for me to redeem myself as a good person one day.

 

Take a look at the comments on the other board, on the OW/ OM board..

[woinlove]

I was told by my then- counselor of a few years, that I had a character flaw for having an A with a MM. I felt offended; I asked her to take that comment back, but she stood by what she said, so I fired her.

 

I then ran this past the shrink I was seeing (he had seen me three years, had prescribed anti-depressants) and he knew my marital history and my serial-cheating H's history. I had been faithful in a twenty year marriage with NO cheating on my side, despite several affairs from my H, over the years. I had never slept with any other man besides my H.

When I saw I couldn't change my cheating H, and my needs went unmet, and I was angry and heavily depressed, I chose to have an A of my own. It was motivated by revenge - I chose a man that if my H ever finds out about my A, that my H would be severely hurt by the knowledge..

 

My shrink did not agree with what my counselor said about me, but her cutting words have stung, still, all these years later.

I want to know what others on this board think -- do all OW / MM inherently have character flaws?

 

What does it even mean when she said I had a character flaw? Does that mean that even though I was a virgin til my husband, and remained faithful to him for the next twenty years (even though he kept having affairs) that THAT history of mine MEANT NOTHING since in the end I messed up by having an A in my forties?

Surely a person's 'character' is set by the time they are in their forties? If I had NEVER freakin' done one wrong thing in my entire life up to that point, and THEN I chose to have an A with a MM, does that mean that I ALWAYS had a character flaw lurking in me?

 

Please, what do you think?

 

What matters the most is what you think of yourself. If you look externally for validation of your character and behavior, it will never be enough. There will always be nagging doubts and more validation needed. If the therapist's words stung so much, maybe it is because you agree with her on some level. You may see some reasons that contributed to you acting the way you did and yet still think that you want to be the kind of person who makes different decisions.

[TaraMaiden]

This is, essentially, my point.. I was who I was my entire life up to my forties, and THEN I thought 'screw him!' and I CHANGED MY BEHAVIOR to hurt him, to get power back, to get over him and detach from my H.

 

How did that make you feel:

 

At the time?

Later?

Now?

 

So, my question is, do you all think it was my character or my behavior that changed?

Your behaviour.

 

Since we can't change character, and I behaved radically differently in my FORTIES, do you still think I have a 'character flaw'?

no, having an affair is behaviour.

Wanting revenge and rubbing someone's nose in it, is character.

You had it in you already to finally snap under pressure. I'm sure there may have been instances in your past when you decided that your patience had worn thin, and you 'bit back'. your tolerance threshold obviously has its limit. That's in your character.

 

That's not to say it's wrong, but it merely illustrates that you have it in you to act in a particular way. The action you took - was uncharacteristic.

 

By the way, for what it is worth, I fully told my husband that I did NOT assure him of my fidelity anymore, and that what was good for him, was good for me too, and that I 'reserved the right to have an affair' anytime in the future that I chose to.

 

Then, I actually told him after I started my affair that I was having an affair, and named the man, but my H did not believe me, and I did not force him to.

So you had an affair (not character, behaviour) but you wanted him to know all about it - and flaunted it under his nose, no holds barred.... How did you feel about him not believing you?

Because wanting someone to be hurt, on purpose, is part of character.... do you like it in programmes when people get their come-uppance?

Is that what you were attempting to engineer when you declared all of the above to him?

You not only wanted him to be in pain, you wanted to see it?

[Leelou]

Leelou - you purchased a GPS device for the sole purpose of placing it in a vehicle owned by your MM and his wife. You don't think you've got something going on with your character that needs addressing?

 

I totally get why you're so defensive because you're having issue with your MM, but you really need to take a look at yourself.

You're right. I DO need to 'take a look at myself' and this is how I am beginning to, by posting here.

 

I did buy a GPS and at the time I ordered it (with overnight shipping), I started a thread here asking about it, and I was so glad I did, because posters helped me see how wrong it was, and I DID NOT DO IT! I posted because I needed help, and I am posting now, because I need help. I need to know what I am tackling in sorting out the end of an A, and finally dealing with my issues - be they character issues, or behavioral issues.

 

I value different perspectives and input, just be respectful.

[Leelou]

No and I think that anyone that bases this opinion on one choice is flawed as well, in that they are very narrow minded and I'd brush their opinions off like an annoying gnat.

 

BUT what is important is why do you feel that this is such a big deal? Everyone does have flaws.

For instance, I think my MM has a character flaw in the way he had set up his entire marriage, it just is something about him that needs it this way. Flaw.

 

What is it about this term, paired with this action that is making you feel this way?I'd figure that part out and I think you will feel a lot better about it and better able to address it.

Thank you. I will go and think about this. Will get back

[Leelou]

One choice does not make anyone a bad person. No matter what that choice is.

I doubt that anyone that calls your 1 choice a character flaw could stand up to having each of their choices looked at under a microscope for flaws either.

 

I think you are feeling judged... and that that is painful for you.

Making a choice, even one you may feel is a bad one doesn't define you. Even making a series of choices doesn't define you.

 

It doesn't mean you are a bad person, even if the choice was bad. (I personally don't think it categorically was though either)

Okay, this bolded part had me suddenly crying, so that's the tender spot. Gonna go get some air

[Leelou]

How did that make you feel:

 

At the time?

Later?

Now?

 

 

Your behaviour.

 

 

no, having an affair is behaviour.

Wanting revenge and rubbing someone's nose in it, is character.

You had it in you already to finally snap under pressure. I'm sure there may have been instances in your past when you decided that your patience had worn thin, and you 'bit back'. your tolerance threshold obviously has its limit. That's in your character.

 

That's not to say it's wrong, but it merely illustrates that you have it in you to act in a particular way. The action you took - was uncharacteristic.

 

 

So you had an affair (not character, behaviour) but you wanted him to know all about it - and flaunted it under his nose, no holds barred.... How did you feel about him not believing you?

Because wanting someone to be hurt, on purpose, is part of character.... do you like it in programmes when people get their come-uppance?

Is that what you were attempting to engineer when you declared all of the above to him?

You not only wanted him to be in pain, you wanted to see it?

There's a lot of valuable stuff in this post that I need to address and think over.

I DO have THOSE things in my character, yes. You are right, in films/TV when people get paid back in kind, I AM cheering for that justice!

 

Is this wrong?

I have to think this through.

[mercy]

I was told by my then- counselor of a few years, that I had a character flaw for having an A with a MM. I felt offended; I asked her to take that comment back, but she stood by what she said, so I fired her.

 

I then ran this past the shrink I was seeing (he had seen me three years, had prescribed anti-depressants) and he knew my marital history and my serial-cheating H's history. I had been faithful in a twenty year marriage with NO cheating on my side, despite several affairs from my H, over the years. I had never slept with any other man besides my H.

When I saw I couldn't change my cheating H, and my needs went unmet, and I was angry and heavily depressed, I chose to have an A of my own. It was motivated by revenge - I chose a man that if my H ever finds out about my A, that my H would be severely hurt by the knowledge..

 

My shrink did not agree with what my counselor said about me, but her cutting words have stung, still, all these years later.

I want to know what others on this board think -- do all OW / MM inherently have character flaws?

 

What does it even mean when she said I had a character flaw? Does that mean that even though I was a virgin til my husband, and remained faithful to him for the next twenty years (even though he kept having affairs) that THAT history of mine MEANT NOTHING since in the end I messed up by having an A in my forties?

Surely a person's 'character' is set by the time they are in their forties? If I had NEVER freakin' done one wrong thing in my entire life up to that point, and THEN I chose to have an A with a MM, does that mean that I ALWAYS had a character flaw lurking in me?

 

Please, what do you think?

 

I think you are confused by what character flaw means. Google it.

 

Every one of us has character flaws.

 

What flaw dominated your life or your life at the time of the affair, anger, right? Anger is a character flaw. So, you need to work/deal with your anger.

 

Most all of our character flaws are formed in our adolescent years. Maybe you've always had issues with your anger. Well, ask yourself, what the hell did I get so angry about, how can I change that.

 

I think your 'shrink' is wrong. If he were right, he'd be out of business.

 

My h had an affair. Morally he couldn't continue it because it went against what his core values were. When he began the affair he allowed his character flaw to dominate his choices.

 

The flawed nature of man is in all of us.

 

Take advise/counsel from others but never allow another to define who you are. I don't think your counselor misspoke maybe you just took it as judgement for something you never felt comfortable doing.

[alexandria35]

I agree with Alice. If you were asked to list the traits of someone with good character, would you say cheating, lying or acting in revenge? Many MM/MW say they never wanted to hurt their spouse, they didn't want to be cheaters they just lacked self control for whatever reason. Usually they just wanted someone to make them feel good and when they found someone to feed their ego they became addicted and couldn't walk away from it. You on the other hand, started your affair out of malice. You deliberately planned your affair to cause as much pain as possible. One might say that shows a lack of good character or a character flaw.

 

Why get hung up on the words "character flaws"? Lots of people have flawed characters, not just cheaters. Which means it's totally possible that you had some character flaws before you cheated. I don't want you to feel attacked but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the motivation behind your affair. I can understand how a woman who has had a 20 year marriage to a serial cheater may be in great pain and therefore vulnerable to having an affair. If said woman were to ask for advice beforehand she would probably be encouraged to leave the marriage so that she can seek her happiness, however she may not have realized how much hurt she was carrying around inside until someone came along and gave her some unexpected relief. I don't think very many MM/MW plan their affairs with malice and revenge and to cause hurt. I bet even your husband didn't maliciously cheat on you, he was just selfishly acting on getting his own needs met. Your affair wasn't a misguided attempt at finding love, it was done with the intent to cause pain. Of course you told your husband about the affair. That was the whole point of your endeavor wasn't it? To deliberately and maliciously cause pain right?

 

I know that if I ever met a divorced man who cheated on his wife while married I would have some serious reservations about becoming involved with him. If he then told me he deliberately planned the affair and chose the person he cheated with based on ensuring the greatest pain possible, then I would never consider becoming involved with that person. Not even if he explained that his wife had been cheating on him for years, because by my standards a person of good character does not deal with problems that way. Lots of people have had their hearts ripped out and stomped on. It hurts and it usually motivates people to make real changes in themselves so that they can become stronger and less vulnerable to the character flaws in others. Acting in revenge has nothing to do with personal growth or healing.

 

When it comes to fixing our own character flaws there is no point in comparing ourselves to others because of course there will always be people who we can point to and say "see, they are worse than me, therefore there is nothing wrong with me". That might make us feel better in the moment but what does it have to do with working on ourselves and becoming better people longterm? You are a separate person from your husband. His character flaws have nothing to do with yours so there is no point in comparing yourself to him.

[mercy]

*Points to the top of the screen*.... and... this is the cheaters board....so...?

 

Besides, doesn't make my opinion less valid and that's what the OP asked for.

 

I think moral character is being confused with character flaws.

 

Two separate issues.

[beach]

I am selfish and dishonest to the MM's wife.

 

I am not really selfish and dishonest in my marriage with my H.

 

What is it that I need to see?

 

I am generous with people all around me. I am honest with people and straightforward in other aspects of my life.

 

By its very nature, this affair has got to be inherently secret and dishonest and selfish, but that's because I chose to have this Affair. How can you have an affair if you do not keep it secret and selfish? Then it is not an affair.

 

Since you are. Wing dishonest with his wife - there is a character defect involved... As you aren't being honest.

 

Being dishonest leads to more character flaws - the cover up - secrecy... I could go on and on - but you know how those traits make YOU FEEL when you participate THAT way... Not YOUR BEST SELF... Hence the character flaw(s).

[beach]

One choice does not make anyone a bad person. No matter what that choice is.

I doubt that anyone that calls your 1 choice a character flaw could stand up to having each of their choices looked at under a microscope for flaws either.

 

I think you are feeling judged... and that that is painful for you.

Making a choice, even one you may feel is a bad one doesn't define you. Even making a series of choices doesn't define you.

 

It doesn't mean you are a bad person, even if the choice was bad. (I personally don't think it categorically was though either)

 

But our CHOICES do define us. No way around that. What I CHOOSE to DO or NOT DO - affects me - and how I feel about myself... And my choices also affect OTHERS!

[Leelou]

Since you are. Wing dishonest with his wife - there is a character defect involved... As you aren't being honest.

 

Being dishonest leads to more character flaws - the cover up - secrecy... I could go on and on - but you know how those traits make YOU FEEL when you participate THAT way... Not YOUR BEST SELF... Hence the character flaw(s).

wait.. how do YOU define 'character flaws' as you are using this term?

 

You either HAVE an inherent character flaw, or you do not. How can you get 'more character flaws' after your character is set? Does not make sense to me.

 

Sure, one can make bad choices, and behave badly, but how can you attain more character flaws? So, please define character flaw the way YOU see it (not a dictionary).

[woinlove]

Okay, this bolded part had me suddenly crying, so that's the tender spot. Gonna go get some air

 

This makes it sound like you have an internal struggle and are sensitive to what other people think of you because you don't feel good about yourself. It may make you feel temporarily better having one or more posters saying they don't see anything wrong with what you did, but to feel good over the long term, you need to come to term with it yourself. If you feel bad about past behavior, but learn from it and are confident you have changed, then you can feel good about yourself. Then it won't matter what others think. You'll agree with some, disagree with others, but it won't make you feel bad.

[beenburned]

If you were unhappy being married to a serial cheater, why didn't you just divorce him?

[KathyM]

I know a woman who was in a very similar situation than you. I couldn't understand how a woman could abandon her moral character and get into such a situation that she felt so strongly against prior to engaging in an affair with a MM. It is a character flaw if a person allows themselves to get into that situation, but you have the power to do something about it and put that behind you and move on to aspire to be a better person. You may think that you do not owe your husband fidelity since he showed no fidelity to you, but the fact that you are interfering with and damaging/destroying someone else's marriage is what especially causes a person to question your character. And I'm a little confused by your OP. You said in your OP that your husband doesn't know about the affair, and then later in the thread said you told him you were having an affair and who it was with. Your story seems to change to suit your argument. I think a person's character is determined by a person's actions or inactions, not by what he thinks he is or what he wants to be or what he used to be. Do you think it shows good character to be cheating on your husband with a MM who is cheating on his wife? We show our true character by the actions that we do--both present and past. If you stop the bad behavior and are truly remorseful about it, I think that shows a positive step towards repairing a character flaw. If you continue the behavior and make excuses for it or rationalize it, and don't have concern for the harm your actions are doing, then I'd say that's a character flaw that is not being addressed. Obviously, this current behavior is going against your self perception. You still perceive of yourself as someone with good overall character, but this recent behavior is going against that, and for some reason you are not taking responsibility for your actions, but instead blaming it on the consequences of your husband's infidelity. I would agree with your counselor who said you have a character flaw, and I would suggest you consider adjusting your behavior to coincide with the character you WANT to have and the character you WANT to define you. Right now, your actions are conflicting with your self perception and the kind of person you want to be. Your counselors are pointing out the uncongruence between your actions and your values/ideals.