Do you think OW / MM are character damaged?

[MourningLosses]

You're right i have never read that kind of thing. I think I would sat if you love her then go, and I am sure he would have if she'd done that. I feel like any woman with self esteem should say that.

 

The rules like NC letters and showing all his emails seem very controlling. If he wants to be faithful surely that's unnecessary and if he doesn't then it's infantilizing.

 

What is she, his mother? It doesn't make any sense to me why a man would put up with that or why a wife would show herself to be such a victim and so controlling.

[MourningLosses]

I get that he picked her, really. And it wasn't a level playing field- she has the kids. I just don't get how he went from living me to silence. And I don't get how she could let him get away with this- but that's for another post.

 

He didn't just slip up. He kept telling me more about her recriminations and betraying her even more emotionally after she knew.

[Silly_Girl]

I didn't say any thing about psychopath's in my post and the rest of your post implies that YOU BELIEVE that I think all mm are. It's not my belief that all are. It is my belief that some are.

 

Sigh.......I wish you wouldn't twist my words.

 

No, first part related to your post. The rest was my thoughts. No twisting.

[MourningLosses]

Come on ML..........not a level playing field?? Have you forgot you are married yourself and still with your husband. You weren't exactly free as a bird you know.

 

Using the kids.........most mothers don't do that, you shouldn't assume she would, you really don't know any for a fact, all you know is what he told you and for all you know it might have all been lies.

 

I meant that he picked her as a package with the kids or maybe even just for the kids. But I had not had a decade and 3 children with him. Obviously that was a disadvantage. Also he was cheating on her and felt guilty, as if the only relevant morality lay in the accident that she met him a decade before I did.

[woinlove]

But that's my point, if he isn't reaching out then he IS staying by choice. As far as the letters and transparency and stuff, I could argue it for hours and not change your view. I already know he lies to her. So if he's writing emails to her, that are SOLELY for her benefit, how is that any different or additional lying than I already know he's doing?

Example:

He tells her that he is going out of town for work. He is... but he leaves out that although he has a room at the Hyatt, he'll never do more than check in and check out there and will instead be staying with me.

I know this and am fully aware of it.

 

Example:

If he's careless enough to get caught and sends me a NC letter or email or makes a NC phone call, I already know that there will be an email sent from a an account she has no way of knowing exists, or a phone call will be made to me at a specific time, because unless she plans on going to work with him he will have free access to both a computer and a phone that she has no access to. So those are just more lies... for her benefit, because I already know that he's lying to her. I already expect him to do whatever she requests of him if he's that careless and just find me as soon as he can. I know this am fully aware of it.

 

See my point?

His behavior after a dday would change nothing except which email address my love letters come from and possibly the phone he uses.

I already 100% know his character,I'm perfectly fine with his character, because I know exactly what he's doing, why and I'm good with it.

 

As for he "WILL GET CAUGHT AGAIN" doomsday prophecy... well most people get caught because they are careless with something or because their spouse is actually engaged in their life.

 

The examples you give are good illustrations of the deception surrounding secret affairs and how the OW/OM chooses to bring that deception into her or his life and, effectively, encourages that behavior in the MM/MW by continuing the affair.

 

As you say, you are fine with having such deception be part of your intimate life and are fine with the character traits implied by it. Most are not, even many involved in affairs are not, but lack the willpower, skills, creativity, clarity, self-esteem, or whatever, to change the situation and to live a more honest, authentic life. From her other posts, I get the impression that the OP does think being involved in such deception goes against her own values, the type of character she wants to have (and it sounds like she has taken action to align her life more with those values and character).

[beenburned]

ML,

 

I asked this in your other thread and got no reply.

 

Why are you staying with a H that is a long term serial cheater?

[woinlove]

That's not the impression I'm getting.

 

I've asked the OP several times why the affair deal breaker is MM cheating on her with ANOTHER OW and not that he's married . . . or that she is married.

 

I don't see that as necessarily aligning her life with values and character - not yet anyway.

It merely indicates that it's okay for her to cheat with a married man, but if he dares cheat on her with a woman other than his wife . . . well then . . . it's over.

 

I think it's great that she's ending things (gotta start somewhere), but to imply that she ended things because she wants to be "good," I have to disagree. I never got that impression in any of her threads.

 

The OP updated her other thread and said that the A went against her values and she is trying to sort that out. These are really important questions - why did I make the decision I did, what does it mean about me, what kind of person do I want to be, how will I get there - and it takes time to get the answers that really resonate with the individual and can lead to true change.

 

I tend to look optimistically at the whole picture and think the rationalizations and arguments in favor of an A are just steps along the path to her sorting it out for herself. Look at the actions, first she starts threads questioning this type of behavior (even if she was defending it) and then she ends the A.

 

If she keeps posting, time will show which one of us is correct.

[LoveTKO]

If you are married and you are a serial cheater without batting an eye, then yes, I would consider it a character flaw. As a single guy who has been sleeping with the same married woman for quite some time, I can honestly say that my decision to finally acquiesce and take the plunge isn't based on a character flaw, but more the result lowering boundaries over a long time span. It all starts out with lunch and meaningless chatter while knowing damn well that sleeping with this person is wrong in all levels!

 

To me, the process has been very insidious and stealthy. You know it's wrong and you have judged people in the past for carrying on affairs, but when there is strong mutual attraction and you decide to "just be friends", you know deep inside that it's an insurmountable task because instinct and drive eventually takes over.

[LoveTKO]

It is a matter of being needy. You can avoid the mess by simply not going to the initial lunch.

 

 

...and curious about getting your hand caught in the cookie jar. The fact that I could barely chew my food because my mouth was so dry from stress should have been a cue that I had no business being there.

[MourningLosses]

Been burned in sorry I think you might have me confused with someone. My H and I were separated during my relationship with my friend. We were living apart or at least sleeping apart. So I didn't really I have to lie to him.

 

One separation I told him to get his needs met elsewhere so he did. I don't feel cheated on. He didn't go behind my back.

[jwi71]

But that's my point, if he isn't reaching out then he IS staying by choice. As far as the letters and transparency and stuff, I could argue it for hours and not change your view. I already know he lies to her. So if he's writing emails to her, that are SOLELY for her benefit, how is that any different or additional lying than I already know he's doing?

Example:

He tells her that he is going out of town for work. He is... but he leaves out that although he has a room at the Hyatt, he'll never do more than check in and check out there and will instead be staying with me.

I know this and am fully aware of it.

 

Example:

If he's careless enough to get caught and sends me a NC letter or email or makes a NC phone call, I already know that there will be an email sent from a an account she has no way of knowing exists, or a phone call will be made to me at a specific time, because unless she plans on going to work with him he will have free access to both a computer and a phone that she has no access to. So those are just more lies... for her benefit, because I already know that he's lying to her. I already expect him to do whatever she requests of him if he's that careless and just find me as soon as he can. I know this am fully aware of it.

 

See my point?

His behavior after a dday would change nothing except which email address my love letters come from and possibly the phone he uses.

I already 100% know his character,I'm perfectly fine with his character, because I know exactly what he's doing, why and I'm good with it.

 

As for he "WILL GET CAUGHT AGAIN" doomsday prophecy... well most people get caught because they are careless with something or because their spouse is actually engaged in their life.

 

This is, sadly, typical.

 

And clearly demonstrative of some fairly long standing and deep character flaws - of those knowledgeable and involved anyways.

 

The continued lying, deception, duplicity, cowardice - nothing changes except the LEVEL of each of those involved. And all of that inherently unhealthy - more so given the above.

 

The way to end those would be, on dday, is to make a true choice - one life or the other. To tell one woman goodbye and end it - with the other begin anew.

[Leelou]

ML,

 

I asked this in your other thread and got no reply.

 

Why are you staying with a H that is a long term serial cheater?

I think this is a question directed at me, not ML.

 

I stayed with my H because at first I still loved him (for many years after), we have children together, and he promised to change his ways.

 

We did some MC.

 

The years have gone by, and I decided to detach my heart from his, it was at that point that I embarked on an affair..

 

I have successfully detached from my H, emotionally. I just see him as a friend/part of the family. We do not live together, and haven't for a few years now. I will divorce him, there has been no rush, the kids are still in college, and our finances are tied up together. I 'stayed' for many years, but now it's moreso in name, than in everyday life. At first I chose MM partly because he was married, like me, as I didn't think choosing a single man would be fair to him.

That's not the impression I'm getting.

 

I've asked the OP several times why the affair deal breaker is MM cheating on her with ANOTHER OW and not that he's married . . . or that she is married.

 

I don't see that as necessarily aligning her life with values and character - not yet anyway.

It merely indicates that it's okay for her to cheat with a married man, but if he dares cheat on her with a woman other than his wife . . . well then . . . it's over.

 

 

 

To the poster that asks why is it the possibility of another OW that would 'cause' me to break up with MM, instead of the fact that he is MARRIED: No clever reason, I just acknowledged in the beginning that I was married, and I shouldn't choose a single man as that would be more than what I could offer to him, at the time, me being married.

I met MM and I knew right away that he was the wandering spouse kind, and it made me think he was like my husband. I was curious what it was like on the other side of the infidelity triangle. There were many reasons both for, and against an A.

 

From Day 1, before MM and I progressed to a PA, I asked him why he would cheat on his W, and that I felt bad for her. He told me to worry about MY H, and HE would "handle" his W.

It wasn't a real answer and I knew it. But I made the decision to have an A with HIM, and he was married.

 

As for me recently wondering if he had an OW - I was looking for a 'reason' to end things with MM. I know I've had a reason all along; that he and I are both married to others, but that was exactly the same case when we first began, so nothing changed since day 1 when it was purposefully swept under the rug.

 

In actuality, I feel sick in my stomach when I stop to think of his wife ever finding out about us. She is not a bad woman and does not deserve any of this.

I am wrong for hurting her by being with her H. I know this. I have no explanation for this apart from I decided some point a few years back when I was weak and depressed to go this route, and it has been destructive, even though spending time with MM made me happy, it was a wrong relationship and should never have been.

 

I know I am wrong. I don't like what I did. I don't know what the consequences of my actions will be on everyone around me, never mind on me personally - on my character. I have not even begun to process this. I have been living in Lalaland for a while now. I don't take anti-depressants anymore, so you can see I am stronger now, physically and emotionally. I have to keep on going in the right direction. HOW I am going to put the two halves of me together (good/bad) I don't know.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Leelou

[Leelou]

I think you are an amazing woman! Good post. You have a conscience and you have character.

I am crying now, seeing your words. I thank you for giving me strength right now, because I need it.

 

I am not proud of myself.

[mercy]

I am crying now, seeing your words. I thank you for giving me strength right now, because I need it.

 

I am not proud of myself.

 

I hope that you didn't read into my posts to you that I was condemning you. Far from it.

 

You've shown your true character. You're on the right path.

 

A person of true character can do 'bad' things, allow their flaws to dominate them. But not for long because the core of their being won't allow it. Please be proud of who you are. When we learn from our mistakes they're lessons. You are learning some tough ones. *cyber hug*

 

Pierre, I really like your posts!

[Got it]

You only quoted a very small part of the entire definition of concubine.

 

I don't think the term concubine is an insult and it was not my intention to insult you. The definition fits a female that is willing to be the secondary woman of a male. In some parts of the world the main woman (the wife) simply looks the other way.

 

 

You have volunteer for this role and should not be ashamed. I certainly don't look down on you for being cognitive of your status. At least you do not try to use rationalization. con·cu·bine   [kong-kyuh-bahyn, kon-] Show IPA

noun

1.

a woman who cohabits with a man to whom she is not legally married, especially one regarded as socially or sexually subservient; mistress.

2.

(among polygamous peoples) a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank.

3.

(especially formerly in Muslim societies) a woman residing in a harem and kept, as by a sultan, for sexual purposes.

 

In what way is the OP necessarily socially or sexually subservient or of inferior rank (outside of personal opinion)?

 

I do not agree that this terminology is applicable in most societies. And your use of it was insulting as was the intent.

[cocorico]

You only quoted a very small part of the entire definition of concubine.

 

I don't think the term concubine is an insult and it was not my intention to insult you. The definition fits a female that is willing to be the secondary woman of a male. In some parts of the world the main woman (the wife) simply looks the other way.

 

 

You have volunteer for this role and should not be ashamed. I certainly don't look down on you for being cognitive of your status. At least you do not try to use rationalization.

 

In polygamous cultures, distinction was made between wives (however many the man had) and concubines, who were basically sex slaves for the man, as well as a source of labour reproduction (the children he fathered), and servants to the wives. This is very different from the role of the typical OW, whose role is usually closer to that of a GF, or sometimes an additional W.

 

In some cases the OW may be "secondary" to the BW but that is by no means assumed or implied in the role. Many of us were as OW the primary woman in the MM's life and the BW either secondary or on a par with some kind of time-sharing (usually unknown to the BW). How the MM values and treats the OW depends on the individual and their circumstances and the R, and is not inherent in the nature of an A.

[Spark1111]

LL, you do not have to ask us....there is a wealth of info on the internet you can google and read.

 

Cheaters often, not always, suffer from poor self-esteem, are conflict avoidant and generally cannot or do not even know what needs they have that are going unmet and rarely have the words to express them in a clear and concise manner.

 

In other words, poor communication skills.

 

This is all learned or NOT in their family of origin (FOO).

 

Only IC can help them learn their needs and why they stuff them.

 

I know you think this was a revenge affair, and it most likely was, but did you ever express to your spouse, "if I cannot get A from you that will be a dealbreaker for me and I will have to either leave this marriage or seek A elsewhere."

 

Most likely not.

 

People who are truly mentally and emotionally healthy have no problem doing just that, and either they communicate, discuss and negotiate that with their SO, give it time, and then stay if the need is fulfilled or annouce a timetable for leaving.....in a very adult manner.

 

To feel helpless, to talk around issues, to then sneak or lie and deceive without this type of continual courageous discourse with your spouse is, yes....a character flaw of a sort.

 

What were you so afraid of? Did you even know, identify and discuss what you felt your marriage was lacking? Did you announce a timetable to repair it or you were leaving it? Did you inform your spouse that MC was mandatory?

 

Or did you just give up hope without taking any adult steps to rectify and have an affair?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Cheaters often, not always, suffer from poor self-esteem, are conflict avoidant and generally cannot or do not even know what needs they have that are going unmet and rarely have the words to express them in a clear and concise manner.

 

In other words, poor communication skills.

 

This is all learned or NOT in their family of origin (FOO).

 

Only IC can help them learn their needs and why they stuff them.

 

Well said!

[Ninja'sHusband]

(might sound familiar)

We ALL have character flaws...suprise! The first step on working on character flaws is to acknowledge them.

 

If you can't acknowledge your own weaknesses, why are you in therapy at all? To prove you were right all along? I can understand letting the past go, but surely you want to learn from your mistakes. Do you think having an A was the right thing to do? How invlolved was the affair? Was being with the other person over and over simply a mistake?(if it was over and over)

 

If you can't be in a relationship, get OUT! Maybe things will change for the better as you start to break it off. If you sabatoge the relationship with an affair, it doesn't give the other person a chance. It's a deceitful and cruel. You know that, you say you were a BS first.

[beenburned]

ML,

 

Sorry for the confusion!

 

Leelou,

 

Thank you for your honest explanation! I am proud of your introspection in trying to understand your actions and change for the better!

 

You said you" met MM and knew right away he was the wandering spouse kind like your serial cheating H". Exactly what signs did you notice in MM that made you think this?

 

And do you feel like being a BW to a serial cheater is what made you curious about what it would be like to be an OW to a MM?

 

Were you trying to hurt or get revenge on your H for what he put you through for many years?

[Silly_Girl]

You only quoted a very small part of the entire definition of concubine.

 

I don't think the term concubine is an insult and it was not my intention to insult you. The definition fits a female that is willing to be the secondary woman of a male. In some parts of the world the main woman (the wife) simply looks the other way.

 

 

You have volunteer for this role and should not be ashamed. I certainly don't look down on you for being cognitive of your status. At least you do not try to use rationalization.

 

CLANG!!!!

 

'Secondary'...

 

Whether you like it or not, whether you approve of it or not, the primary relationship is often not with the wife, so this description will not gel across the board for OWs here.

[eleanorrigby]

CLANG!!!!

 

'Secondary'...

 

Whether you like it or not, whether you approve of it or not, the primary relationship is often not with the wife, so this description will not gel across the board for OWs here.

 

It's hard for me to see the OW as the primary relationship when the MM is still married to his wife. *shrugs*

[mercy]

Well, tell me this.

He is in constant communication with me while he's at work(emails, texts, messenger) and talks to me, really talks to me via phone for a minimum of 2 hours (travel time plus lunch hour), not to mention the standard 1½-2 hours of solid messaging (not a message every 12 minutes but steady back and forth conversational messaging) every morning and 2+ hours of it every night, with the exceptions of Sundays when he plays cards with his sibling. Every mornign he wakes her up, because she won't get up to an alarm clock, the 1 hour of dinner that where she insists tv be on and then the hour that they spend together before she goes to bed, during which they again watch television.

 

*disclaimer*

I am aware of this by her own admissions, she posts about it on facebook where she jokes about how she doesn't talk listen to her husband because it's boring.

 

Reminds me of an old song, you don't know what you've got until you lose it.

 

Why read her fackbook page? Isn't it painful?

[jwi71]

Well, tell me this.

He is in constant communication with me while he's at work(emails, texts, messenger) and talks to me, really talks to me via phone for a minimum of 2 hours (travel time plus lunch hour), not to mention the standard 1½-2 hours of solid messaging (not a message every 12 minutes but steady back and forth conversational messaging) every morning and 2+ hours of it every night, with the exceptions of Sundays when he plays cards with his sibling. Every mornign he wakes her up, because she won't get up to an alarm clock, the 1 hour of dinner that where she insists tv be on and then the hour that they spend together before she goes to bed, during which they again watch television.*

We go on vacation together. She has always taken the kids to her mothers instead of wanting to go anywhere. She refused the last 3 vacations he tried to take with her because her mom thought they shoudl come there. (Her mom lives 14 miles away)

Which is the primary relationship?

 

*disclaimer*

I am aware of this by her own admissions, she posts about it on facebook where she jokes about how she doesn't talk listen to her husband because it's boring.

 

Thats a great question.

 

I would say the R he protects is the one he values. Who is he protecting?

 

And why does it matter to you, I asked you previously and you said you didn't want a future with him - or words to that effect.

[Radagast]

It's hard for me to see the OW as the primary relationship when the MM is still married to his wife. *shrugs*

 

If LFH has made it clear to him that she does not want him to leave his wife, then he would be foolish to disregard her wishes if she is his primary partner. That way he would land up with neither.

 

In my own case, my affair was very much my primary relationship, even though I remained married to my ex-wife for the period it took both of us to resolve various outstanding issues so that we could achieve our aim of being together. My marital status during that time would have been a very poor indicator of where my priorities lay, or what my intentions were, as subsequently shown by my choices and the outcome of my affair, however tempting it may have appeared to an outsider to assume.